Guild Wars 2

Thaddeus.4891:

STIHL.2489:

Then we disagree. I have seen never seen such a toxic attitude in any other part of this game, as I have seen with raids, and I enjoy me quite a bit of WvW.

It’s all about personal experience and your personal experience doesn’t represent all experience and there isn’t even really a way to know which personal experience represent the majority. If anything, I believe that the personal experience of the majority when it come to raid is people that just never tried it yet.

My personal experience was on playing with other people. My raid group is now almost 30 ppl strong and several of those person I just never played with them even if there were in my guild. Some of them I never heard of them before and now I play with them every week, we do fractal together and we talk over our VOIP on a regular basis. The few times I pugged was a good time. I had friendly people, there was one troll that we made fun of with the pugs, and the first 2 bosses when so nicely that we kept the pug that never did Sabetha and we explained it to him. I know and play with more different people now than I did before raid. But again, that’s my personal experience and I won’t gonna generalize to say that all the community is loving and nice, just like you shouldn’t say that they are the most toxic community you ever seen in GW2.

Of course we are expressing our personal experiences, I don’t speak for you, but I do speak for me and what I have seen and dealt with. And with that, I have never seen such a toxic attitude in any other game mode as I have with raids. That can’t be argued, because that is my sampling. Now, I have no idea why people become like that, or, if the raid does not bring it our, what it is about raids that attracts or that kind of person.

Now I have tried the raids with my guild. All in all, I don’t get the attraction to them, they are not hard, at all, VG is pretty simple as far as mechanics go, and have had far more intense and dynamic encounters doing T4 fractals, hell, doing some T3 fractals have given me a bigger thrill then the raid provided.

Now, I don’t have anything against raids, directly, in fact, I have to agree with you all, they are not hard, the mechanic for VG is crudely simple really and the few times I tried VG, the only reason why we wiped at all, ever, was because 4 people did not stand on the circles in time. Say what you will, but that’s a super lame mechanic. But, In that regard, it might be because I’m an old school MMO player, I killed Lady Vox when the level cap was 50, I used to do elite raid rotations in DDO before Epic Levels, and to me, it was just not a raid as there was nothing noteworthy about it.

I get that people will find a way to love it because they want the loot attached to it, but, really, between you, me, and everyone on this forums, Anet is well known for not being able to provide a good balance of loot vs challenge, WvW being a great example of their failure to strike a good balance between the two, and my feelings on it, Raids were also such a case as far as PvE goes, T4 fractals should give better loot then Raids, if it was based on challenge and prep, as fractals (and even some dungeons) are more dynamic and involved but T4 also has a hard gear check, which means it should drop the best loot in the game, imho.

So, honestly, No, I don’t get why people have such an attitude about Raids, or why they even think they are special, or deserving of anything beyond what a Dungeon provides, as they are not really all that hard mechanically, I’ve dealt with harder jumping puzzles.

My reasons for not getting into raiding is, honestly, the biggest one was the community turned me off, that was simply not the group of people I wanted to spend time with, based on my sampling of them. To a far lesser extent, while I could find myself doing it for the loot, it did not seem like fun “Green/Dodge” is not my idea of what a Raid should be. Maybe the other Bosses are more dynamic, but, honestly, after VG, can’t say I’m feeling the urge to see what Monkey Dance the others really are.

My reasons for not getting into raiding is, honestly, the biggest one was the community turned me off, that was simply not the group of people I wanted to spend time with, based on my sampling of them. To a far lesser extent, while I could find myself doing it for the loot, it did not seem like fun “Green/Dodge” is not my idea of what a Raid should be. Maybe the other Bosses are more dynamic, but, honestly, after VG, can’t say I’m feeling the urge to see what Monkey Dance the others really are.

I’d just like to chime in and say that VG does not represent other raid bosses very well, salvation pass especially has a much different feel to it that I think you would like where everyone has nearly equal responsibility (no set tank, various mechanics for everyone). VG is a snoozefest for 5 players but reasonably difficult for the other 5. If you haven’t played as the tank or the green circle role then I don’t think you fully appreciate the challenge they face either (maybe you have, if so ignore this).

Finally do I think VG is more fun than some T4 fracs? No tbh, mechanics feel too forced in a way but I believe it’s like that to act as a raid introduction making the mechanics super obvious (gimmicky). Do I think Slothasor is more fun than some T4 fracs? Most certainly, it’s my favourite fight in the game by far.

Guess I’m just trying to get you to give wing 2 a shot before writing off raids as a whole as in my experience it’s way more fun!

STIHL.2489:

Thaddeus.4891:

STIHL.2489:

Then we disagree. I have seen never seen such a toxic attitude in any other part of this game, as I have seen with raids, and I enjoy me quite a bit of WvW.

It’s all about personal experience and your personal experience doesn’t represent all experience and there isn’t even really a way to know which personal experience represent the majority. If anything, I believe that the personal experience of the majority when it come to raid is people that just never tried it yet.

My personal experience was on playing with other people. My raid group is now almost 30 ppl strong and several of those person I just never played with them even if there were in my guild. Some of them I never heard of them before and now I play with them every week, we do fractal together and we talk over our VOIP on a regular basis. The few times I pugged was a good time. I had friendly people, there was one troll that we made fun of with the pugs, and the first 2 bosses when so nicely that we kept the pug that never did Sabetha and we explained it to him. I know and play with more different people now than I did before raid. But again, that’s my personal experience and I won’t gonna generalize to say that all the community is loving and nice, just like you shouldn’t say that they are the most toxic community you ever seen in GW2.

Of course we are expressing our personal experiences, I don’t speak for you, but I do speak for me and what I have seen and dealt with. And with that, I have never seen such a toxic attitude in any other game mode as I have with raids. That can’t be argued, because that is my sampling. Now, I have no idea why people become like that, or, if the raid does not bring it our, what it is about raids that attracts or that kind of person.

Now I have tried the raids with my guild. All in all, I don’t get the attraction to them, they are not hard, at all, VG is pretty simple as far as mechanics go, and have had far more intense and dynamic encounters doing T4 fractals, hell, doing some T3 fractals have given me a bigger thrill then the raid provided.

Now, I don’t have anything against raids, directly, in fact, I have to agree with you all, they are not hard, the mechanic for VG is crudely simple really and the few times I tried VG, the only reason why we wiped at all, ever, was because 4 people did not stand on the circles in time. Say what you will, but that’s a super lame mechanic. But, In that regard, it might be because I’m an old school MMO player, I killed Lady Vox when the level cap was 50, I used to do elite raid rotations in DDO before Epic Levels, and to me, it was just not a raid as there was nothing noteworthy about it.

I get that people will find a way to love it because they want the loot attached to it, but, really, between you, me, and everyone on this forums, Anet is well known for not being able to provide a good balance of loot vs challenge, WvW being a great example of their failure to strike a good balance between the two, and my feelings on it, Raids were also such a case as far as PvE goes, T4 fractals should give better loot then Raids, if it was based on challenge and prep, as fractals (and even some dungeons) are more dynamic and involved but T4 also has a hard gear check, which means it should drop the best loot in the game, imho.

So, honestly, No, I don’t get why people have such an attitude about Raids, or why they even think they are special, or deserving of anything beyond what a Dungeon provides, as they are not really all that hard mechanically, I’ve dealt with harder jumping puzzles.

My reasons for not getting into raiding is, honestly, the biggest one was the community turned me off, that was simply not the group of people I wanted to spend time with, based on my sampling of them. To a far lesser extent, while I could find myself doing it for the loot, it did not seem like fun “Green/Dodge” is not my idea of what a Raid should be. Maybe the other Bosses are more dynamic, but, honestly, after VG, can’t say I’m feeling the urge to see what Monkey Dance the others really are.

Seems like you a judging the whole “Raid” by VG mechanics. Did you know that not all bosses have green circles?
Judging from your comment, you didn’t get past VG because of failing green circles, which is in your opinion a very easy. But why did this happen if it’s all so easy? maybe it was the tank’s movement? or lack of healing? or lack of seeker control?, it all comes down to teamwork, and if some people fail to do their job, it will make the whole team fail.
That’s what’s hard about raids, not the mechanics themselves (for most people).
As much as I don’t disagree with you on the opinion that VG is “easy”, I think that saying “It’s too easy and that’s why I don’t want to do it, and those who do it shouldn’t get a better reward” is just a bad excuse.

All these comments from people that have yet to beat a boss about how raids are not great because the mechanics are easy, and that the true skilled players are those in pvp are nothing more than weak attempts at trying to compensate for their lack of success in raids. Some just feel the need to diminish someone else’s accomplishments and the overall success of raids. It makes them feel a bit better, sadly.

They obviously won’t admit this, that would hurt their self-esteem. They’ll blame the elitism or something else instead and talk about how rude and obnoxious raiders are. Welp, guess what, we all have met bad apples in game but that didn’t deter us from doing raids.
Also, truth is that nothing is so black or white; for every player that has had a bad experience in raids there are others who are enjoying them.

The Zealous Templar.3861:

I’d just like to chime in and say that VG does not represent other raid bosses very well, salvation pass especially has a much different feel to it that I think you would like where everyone has nearly equal responsibility (no set tank, various mechanics for everyone). VG is a snoozefest for 5 players but reasonably difficult for the other 5. If you haven’t played as the tank or the green circle role then I don’t think you fully appreciate the challenge they face either (maybe you have, if so ignore this).

Finally do I think VG is more fun than some T4 fracs? No tbh, mechanics feel too forced in a way but I believe it’s like that to act as a raid introduction making the mechanics super obvious (gimmicky). Do I think Slothasor is more fun than some T4 fracs? Most certainly, it’s my favourite fight in the game by far.

Guess I’m just trying to get you to give wing 2 a shot before writing off raids as a whole as in my experience it’s way more fun!

Fair response, and to answer your questions, yes, I have done tank and circles, used a scrapper engineer as a tank, it wasn’t bad, wasn’t hard either, all just twitch about when to dodge, but the moves were choreographed well enough, so that once I knew what to look for, it timing it was not difficult. Dancing Mai Trin’s Cannons, (depending on the group), could be much harder, LOL.

However, let me ask you a question. Why should I go through the effort to learn Wing2, if I already feel that the Raid game mode inspires a toxic community, and because of that, is not something I want to support?

Coconut.7082:

Seems like you a judging the whole “Raid” by VG mechanics. Did you know that not all bosses have green circles?
Judging from your comment, you didn’t get past VG because of failing green circles, which is in your opinion a very easy. But why did this happen if it’s all so easy? maybe it was the tank’s movement? or lack of healing? or lack of seeker control?, it all comes down to teamwork, and if some people fail to do their job, it will make the whole team fail.
That’s what’s hard about raids, not the mechanics themselves (for most people).
As much as I don’t disagree with you on the opinion that VG is “easy”, I think that saying “It’s too easy and that’s why I don’t want to do it, and those who do it shouldn’t get a better reward” is just a bad excuse.

VG was the first raid, as such, as far as Mechanics go, that is what I have to work with.

I totally agree with you, I found the VG mechanics crudely simplistic, all the challenge was not in dealing with this epic boss, but simply “Stand Here” “Dodge Now”. I dunno, maybe that is what contemporary gamers feel is a “Raid”, these days, last game I played with raids in it was Dungeons and Dragons Online, and a raid in that game, that was an event.

If this is what currently passes for a raid, great, honestly it wasn’t working for me. There was never this presence of tension to it, even when I did circles, I would stand there helpless if everyone else didn’t make it as well. And losing was never a “Wow Guys that was so close, if we just work a little more we can take him” it was never that, it was always it was always this dismissive “Ok let’s try again, someone didn’t make the circle”

I guess some people find that fun, I didn’t.. and when you couple that with a what I see as a very unfounded attitude, the whole thing looks surprisingly unappealing.

STIHL.2489:

VG was the first raid, as such, as far as Mechanics go, that is what I have to work with.

VG is a first boss of a first wing.

STIHL.2489:

However, let me ask you a question. Why should I go through the effort to learn Wing2, if I already feel that the Raid game mode inspires a toxic community, and because of that, is not something I want to support?

It’s nobody’s responsibility to convince you to do the content. If your attitude is going to be “why should I bother, you’re all toxic” then I’d just prefer you not be in the raiding community.

“Hey you stupid toxic kittens, convince me to play with you” isn’t really the way to go about it.

Dhorghar.5249:

All these comments from people that have yet to beat a boss about how raids are not great because the mechanics are easy, and that the true skilled players are those in pvp are nothing more than weak attempts at trying to compensate for their lack of success in raids. Some just feel the need to diminish someone else’s accomplishments and the overall success of raids. It makes them feel a bit better, sadly.

They obviously won’t admit this, that would hurt their self-esteem. They’ll blame the elitism or something else instead and talk about how rude and obnoxious raiders are. Welp, guess what, we all have met bad apples in game but that didn’t deter us from doing raids.
Also, truth is that nothing is so black or white; for every player that has had a bad experience in raids there are others who are enjoying them.

It’s funny because half my raid group are legendary PvPers and every legendary PvPer I know has done / cleared raids, at least as far as they want to. Some of them don’t really like PvE at all so they stopped after a few raids.

This basically sounds the bigotry I regular hear in WvW about “bad PvE players” being rallybots when in fact raiders/hardcore PvErs are more likely to run proper builds/get food and play well. All just to stroke their egos ayyy lmao.

timmyf.1490:

“Hey you stupid toxic kittens, convince me to play with you” isn’t really the way to go about it.

more like >check out raids. find them not really all that interesting. most people encountered aside from guildies or friends when attempting to raid are real kittens about it. leave the raid scene. get told “you’re a filthy casual because you don’t ZOMGLOVE raids”<

yep. that’s motivating. i’ve experienced it too.

timmyf.1490:

It’s nobody’s responsibility to convince you to do the content. If your attitude is going to be “why should I bother, you’re all toxic” then I’d just prefer you not be in the raiding community.

“Hey you stupid toxic kittens, convince me to play with you” isn’t really the way to go about it.

I didn’t start this topic, but, I get the feeling that posts like this encapsulates exactly why this entire topic exists.

katz.8376:

most people encountered aside from guildies or friends when attempting to raid are real kittens about it.

Very good point, and I rescind a bit, my guildmates and friends, were super cool about raids, and most of the toxic community I encountered came from pugs and randoms.

However, let me ask you a question. Why should I go through the effort to learn Wing2, if I already feel that the Raid game mode inspires a toxic community, and because of that, is not something I want to support?

I mean there’s nothing I can really say that’s going to persuade you if you’ve already formed conclusions, all I can say is that we have differing opinions on the raiding community, I started raiding 2 months ago, PuG’s multiple times every week (even after cap + kill) and from what I can remember I’ve seen 4 people get spiteful at others. I’m confident I’ve raided with over 100 different people and the vast majority are quiet/shy with some being confident leaders/shotcallers.

In my experience people who got impatient with the rate of learning of less experienced players generally very rarely raged at them but simply told the group thanks and that they need to go and then left the squad to join a different squad.

There will always be a tiny minority of spiteful people in a setting where failure is a strong possibility. I’ve seen much worse in WvW and PvP than in raids for this reason. Hell I’ve seen people rage at others in the HoT meta events because of this. If you can’t overlook this minority then I guess sticking to environments where failure isn’t as strong a possibility is the best option and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

The Zealous Templar.3861:

. If you can’t overlook this minority then I guess sticking to environments where failure isn’t as strong a possibility is the best option and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

It’s never a question of failure, It’s a question of elitism and exclusion.

The two have nothing in common.

In every sPvP map, half the people who showed up will fail, and all smack talk aside, they know this. Yet they still go in and play. For the people that hot join, or don’t have a fixed group, they go in knowing it’s going to be a mixed bag, and the other 4 people could be totally bad, yet, they still take that risk and jump in.

In WvW, 2 out of 3 teams, will lose, And they know this. Yet they still go in and play. They don’t demand that everyone or anyone for that matter on the field meets a specific metric, only that they try their best to contribute to victory.

In Every Dungeon you see that is an Open Pugs that Says “All Welcome” or just "Path (whatever) takes a high risk of failure because they know they will get a mixed bag of players, and in fact some might not know the content at all, or even be able to do the content. Yet they put that tag up, knowing that risk.

Every Fractal that says “T(x) Dailies” or “Scale (x)” is an open invite, while it is expected that someone has the AR to survive, there is no demand they know the fractal, or have the rest of the gear to be able to handle the content. Yet they put that up, knowing the risks.

So there is no fear of a “risk of failure” among the vast majority of this game, and surely not among the casuals.

In fact, it is the people that say “Need to prove your Worth to Join” that are the ones that fear failure.

STIHL.2489:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

. If you can’t overlook this minority then I guess sticking to environments where failure isn’t as strong a possibility is the best option and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

It’s never a question of failure, It’s a question of elitism and exclusion.

The two have nothing in common.

In every sPvP map, half the people who showed up will fail, and all smack talk aside, they know this. Yet they still go in and play. For the people that hot join, or don’t have a fixed group, they go in knowing it’s going to be a mixed bag, and the other 4 people could be totally bad, yet, they still take that risk and jump in.

In WvW, 2 out of 3 teams, will lose, And they know this. Yet they still go in and play. They don’t demand that everyone or anyone for that matter on the field meets a specific metric, only that they try their best to contribute to victory.

In Every Dungeon you see that is an Open Pugs that Says “All Welcome” or just "Path (whatever) takes a high risk of failure because they know they will get a mixed bag of players, and in fact some might not know the content at all, or even be able to do the content. Yet they put that tag up, knowing that risk.

Every Fractal that says “T(x) Dailies” or “Scale (x)” is an open invite, while it is expected that someone has the AR to survive, there is no demand they know the fractal, or have the rest of the gear to be able to handle the content. Yet they put that up, knowing the risks.

So there is no fear of a “risk of failure” among the vast majority of this game, and surely not among the casuals.

In fact, it is the people that say “Need to prove your Worth to Join” that are the ones that fear failure.

Yeah because you can compare the fail rate of raids with dungeons and fractals. Haha nice joke.

Also in fractals it’s much easier to just kick a (really, really) bad player and replace him with another.

Neox.3497:

Yeah because you can compare the fail rate of raids with dungeons and fractals. Haha nice joke.

The only joke in this topic is that people think Raids are special or hard.

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

Yeah because you can compare the fail rate of raids with dungeons and fractals. Haha nice joke.

The only joke in this topic is that people think Raids are special or hard.

Well they require double the people and require fixed roles, so it takes longer to start. And if somebody rage-quits, you get 9 people standing around waiting (an often long time) to replace them.

It’s not that they’re hard, it’s that they are a considerably larger organizational challenge.

WHEN PUGGING, it’s best to ensure competent players to keep from people getting upset and leaving.

With guild runs, friendslist runs, whatever, it’s much easier to be forgiving. I don’t mind taking extra time helping guildies learn the content because they’ll run with me again in the future. I’m INVESTING my time in their development.

I don’t necessarily care to do that for strangers.

If that makes me toxic, then fine. I’m toxic.

timmyf.1490:

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

Yeah because you can compare the fail rate of raids with dungeons and fractals. Haha nice joke.

The only joke in this topic is that people think Raids are special or hard.

Well they require double the people and require fixed roles, so it takes longer to start. And if somebody rage-quits, you get 9 people standing around waiting (an often long time) to replace them.

It’s not that they’re hard, it’s that they are a considerably larger organizational challenge.

WHEN PUGGING, it’s best to ensure competent players to keep from people getting upset and leaving.

With guild runs, friendslist runs, whatever, it’s much easier to be forgiving. I don’t mind taking extra time helping guildies learn the content because they’ll run with me again in the future. I’m INVESTING my time in their development.

I don’t necessarily care to do that for strangers.

If that makes me toxic, then fine. I’m toxic.

You know. This might come as a shock, but We agree.

Truth is, while I am not a fan of the Raid mechanics in general, I’d do a raid with my guild mates or my friends if they needed a spot filled, but, truth is, I’d never Pug a Raid and I’d never join a random.

And I know I am not alone in that, and because of that difficulty in getting a group together, I don’t see how that kind of content makes for a better community or a better game.

Equally so, I don’t see how taking a bunch of classes that were designed from the ground up to be very self sufficient, to then delegate them down to archaic MMO roles is improvement, that looks like a regression in game play and game design to me, not a progression.

In the long and short of things, I simply don’t see what Raids, in the social or mechanical sense, brought to the table that could not have been done better, by simply adding more challenging and dynamic higher level fractals.

Again, just my feels on the matter.

Anyway, I believe this discussion has run it’s course for me.

I wish you well.

STIHL.2489:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

. If you can’t overlook this minority then I guess sticking to environments where failure isn’t as strong a possibility is the best option and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

It’s never a question of failure, It’s a question of elitism and exclusion.

- snip for brevity -

In fact, it is the people that say “Need to prove your Worth to Join” that are the ones that fear failure.

Not wanting to fail does not mean fear of failure in all cases. Exceedingly few people want to fail. It’s my guess that, for a lot of players anyway, the more they’ve succeeded the easier the raid has become for them. The easier something is, the less tolerance a lot of people will have for failure.

Some raiders know they can beat the content because they have beaten it, sometimes many times. That’s a quite different place from knowing that the other guy may better you in PvP or WvW.

Rewards — such as they are — in the two PvP modes are poor by comparison to PvE. thus, participation is more likely to be because: the player likes the gameplay. There is a lot less sameness to the gameplay in PvP. There’s satisfaction in beating another player, and frustration in losing. There’s also excitement in knowing you might see something unexpected from the opponent. That’s one reason devs shake up PvP metas, to lessen the sense you’re facing the same thing all the time.

In raids, there are no rewards for wipes. It’s a fact of life in MMO’s that rewards are used to entice players into repeating the same stuff over and over. In raids, or any PvE content, really, once the content is learned and one is playing by rote, the lack of newness can equate to boredom. Thus, the rewards. If you’re wanting to get the thing over with to further the reward, there will also be less (or no) tolerance for dragging the process out. Of top of that, raids take time, and failure extends that time. We’re not all kids anymore, and time can be short for a lot of people.

Are there any players who fear wipes? Maybe. However, I don’t think we have to look further than the idea that in content where one knows what to expect, and where one has succeeded before (in some cases, many times) there is less tolerance for wasting time. I believe lack of patience is a much more likely underlying cause than fear.

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

. If you can’t overlook this minority then I guess sticking to environments where failure isn’t as strong a possibility is the best option and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

It’s never a question of failure, It’s a question of elitism and exclusion.

- snip for brevity -

In fact, it is the people that say “Need to prove your Worth to Join” that are the ones that fear failure.

Not wanting to fail does not mean fear of failure in all cases. Exceedingly few people want to fail. It’s my guess that, for a lot of players anyway, the more they’ve succeeded the easier the raid has become for them. The easier something is, the less tolerance a lot of people will have for failure.

Some raiders know they can beat the content because they have beaten it, sometimes many times. That’s a quite different place from knowing that the other guy may better you in PvP or WvW.

Rewards — such as they are — in the two PvP modes are poor by comparison to PvE. thus, participation is more likely to be because: the player likes the gameplay. There is a lot less sameness to the gameplay in PvP. There’s satisfaction in beating another player, and frustration in losing. There’s also excitement in knowing you might see something unexpected from the opponent. That’s one reason devs shake up PvP metas, to lessen the sense you’re facing the same thing all the time.

In raids, there are no rewards for wipes. It’s a fact of life in MMO’s that rewards are used to entice players into repeating the same stuff over and over. In raids, or any PvE content, really, once the content is learned and one is playing by rote, the lack of newness can equate to boredom. Thus, the rewards. If you’re wanting to get the thing over with to further the reward, there will also be less (or no) tolerance for dragging the process out. Of top of that, raids take time, and failure extends that time. We’re not all kids anymore, and time can be short for a lot of people.

Are there any players who fear wipes? Maybe. However, I don’t think we have to look further than the idea that in content where one knows what to expect, and where one has succeeded before (in some cases, many times) there is less tolerance for wasting time. I believe lack of patience is a much more likely underlying cause than fear.

THANK YOU! Finally some honesty that people only do PvE for the Loot, and that PvP is played for the Challenge factor, I have been getting so sick and tired of everyone and their brother trying to pass off that they want challenge while still sticking to scripted combat encounters.

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

Yeah because you can compare the fail rate of raids with dungeons and fractals. Haha nice joke.

The only joke in this topic is that people think Raids are special or hard.

I disagree, I think the only joke in this topic is that people who never cleared any raid think they are so easy, and also use it as an excuse to not try raiding!

Coconut.7082:

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

Yeah because you can compare the fail rate of raids with dungeons and fractals. Haha nice joke.

The only joke in this topic is that people think Raids are special or hard.

I disagree, I think the only joke in this topic is that people who never cleared any raid think they are so easy, and also use it as an excuse to not try raiding!

Everyone on this topic made it clear it was the community surrounding Raids that made Raids unappealing.

Your post does a solid job of reinforcing their feelings on the matter.

STIHL.2489:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

. If you can’t overlook this minority then I guess sticking to environments where failure isn’t as strong a possibility is the best option and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

It’s never a question of failure, It’s a question of elitism and exclusion.

The two have nothing in common.

Actually the two have everything in common. If I want to go kill (for example) a hero point champion I’m not going to vet the people I do the champion with, I’m not going to expect that they don’t constantly mess up, why? Because the possibility of failure is minute even if many people mess up. If I want to go kill Matthias I am going to vet the people I do Matthias with and I am going to expect that they don’t mess up constantly because if people mess up constantly there is a very very strong possibility of failure.

I don’t know anyone who likes to fail. You used the term ‘fear’ which is a little dramatic but is still the same dislike of failure.

STIHL.2489:

Coconut.7082:

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

Yeah because you can compare the fail rate of raids with dungeons and fractals. Haha nice joke.

The only joke in this topic is that people think Raids are special or hard.

I disagree, I think the only joke in this topic is that people who never cleared any raid think they are so easy, and also use it as an excuse to not try raiding!

Everyone on this topic made it clear it was the community surrounding Raids that made Raids unappealing.

Your post does a solid job of reinforcing their feelings on the matter.

I mean to be fair you’ve made several sweeping statements about the raiding community and raids with very little experience. You’ve belittled a vast swathe of friendly and nice people in labeling the entire raiding community as toxic. You’ve said that raids are easy without managing to complete any (even though you’ve tried and failed arguably the easiest one multiple times), again belittling anyone who thinks they are difficult (completed or not) and that people never do it because of the challenge, obviously you the almighty one know the ‘true’ reason why many in the raiding community repeat the raids several times a week after they’ve reached the magnetite shard cap and got the kills on the bosses even though it literally costs them gold.

Frankly you’ve already been more ‘toxic’ and judgmental than the vast majority of people I’ve raided with.

There is nothing inherently wrong with raiding. In my opinion, the problem comes from how raids were implemented into GW2. Raiding could have been an amazing extension of the game that offered new experiences and story telling capabilities for the community as a whole. Instead, they chose to use raids to entice a new kind of player to the game.

While that was probably successful to a small degree – and did offer them a new bullet point for news releases related to “elite endgame content” it also served to change the feel of GW2’s end game. The dev’s insistence on exclusivity and lack of any other content for months following the release of HOT created a division among players that didn’t exist in the first 3 years the game existed.

I raid. I enjoy raiding. However, I also see the negative impact the way they have chosen to implement raids has had on both the larger community and sub communities such as guilds.

I know I will be attacked because of these comments. Back and forth on this has already caused devs to close 2 threads – which should tell them all they need to know about the toxicity raids in their current incarnation are bringing to the game. However, it needs to be said – and changes need to be made.

Raiding can be an amazing part of GW2’s future, but only if dev’s fully realize their potential. We have easy to hard content for single players, 5 person parties and even (debatably) open world (thinking of triple trouble). It works in those situations because they didn’t choose to focus any of those modes on a small group of players.

The key is to offer as wide a range of experiences within a game mode as possible. I would even argue they could make harder (much harder) content in open world, single player and open world – solely because they have the systems in place to vary that experience across the player base.

The only PVE mode where they have chosen to not do this is in raids – and that has created the toxicity we see (both in game an on these forums). It’s time they realized this and fixed it.

The Zealous Templar.3861:

I mean to be fair you’ve made several sweeping statements about the raiding community and raids with very little experience.

How many times would you need to chew on razor blades, before you discovered you didn’t like it?

STIHL.2489:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

I mean to be fair you’ve made several sweeping statements about the raiding community and raids with very little experience.

How many times would you need to chew on razor blades, before you discovered you didn’t like it?

Hey guys, I decided to try fractals today, so I went into this fractal called Molten Furence. Me and my group couldn’t finish it because we couldn’t avoid dying in the trap room in the end, but I think this fractal is very easy and the Drill mechanic is too boring.
Thetefore I conclude that all fractals are so easy and boring, and I won’t be trying them again.
Also I think that the Ascended rewards should be removed from such easy content, they should only be given for actual hard content, like Tequatl.

Btw, organizing a Tequatl squad, req: 10+ Spoons and Sunless title.

Coconut.7082:

STIHL.2489:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

I mean to be fair you’ve made several sweeping statements about the raiding community and raids with very little experience.

How many times would you need to chew on razor blades, before you discovered you didn’t like it?

Hey guys, I decided to try fractals today, so I went into this fractal called Molten Furence. Me and my group couldn’t finish it because we couldn’t avoid dying in the trap room in the end, but I think this fractal is very easy and the Drill mechanic is too boring.
Thetefore I conclude that all fractals are so easy and boring, and I won’t be trying them again.
Also I think that the Ascended rewards should be removed from such easy content, they should only be given for actual hard content, like Tequatl.

Btw, organizing a Tequatl squad, req: 10+ Spoons and Sunless title.

So is accessibility and varying degrees of difficulty a crime now in games?
Should you get more than the other players? Yes.
Should you get unique rewards in any game mode? No.

Even when I see how this is all sarcasm, I would dare you to replace one of your party with someone who knows how to do this fractal. If you do not manage it then, you should probably ask for a disability discount at your local store. An experienced fractal player can carry a group of toons that are piloted by a chimpansee, a raven, a dolphin and a jojo tied around the mouse through a lvl 1 fractal.
I am pretty sure a single experienced raider can´t pull 9 people with him through raids with a reasonable chance of success.

When I started to do Tequatl, I did not even know which successes were there to get and most of them I got by accident. If I had kept them all together, I would own a shop named “Spoonatorium” right now. That title basically kept on hounding me.^^

See the difference? You can come and go as you please from fractals and Tequatl without sinking the ship that is the content. So of course people will be mad when they have to prepare for hours and some people don´t cut the standard in raids.

I think nobody really disputes that raids are harder and less accessible than fractals.
And yes, there are more than enough fractal snobs too.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Everyone wants convenience. The players setting PuG requirements are trying to select teammates using available criteria because they want the convenience of a smooth, successful run. The OP wants the convenience of getting into any group on the LFG.

Sometimes, I think the so-called elitists are being more rational. They’re resorting to LI’s because they think it’s the best available indication that someone has at least killed some bosses. Not to say that LI’s are a great indicator, but the game does not offer a lot of other options to use as filters. The people who want in on any group are expecting other people to want exactly what they want. Expecting acceptance from PuG’s is not all that rational.

While I agree that convenience is important, it’s also true that there are times when you have to eschew convenience to get what you want. Form your own PuG. Form a guild. Join an existing guild. Someone took the initiative to set up that PUG and (presumably) “lead” the raid. Why can’t you take the initiative? Why is your convenience more important than theirs?

I sympathize with your desire to raid. I understand the catch-22 implicit in requirements set by some groups. I also wonder, if you really dislike their approach, why do you want to play with them?

Well said.

Torolan.5816:

Coconut.7082:

STIHL.2489:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

I mean to be fair you’ve made several sweeping statements about the raiding community and raids with very little experience.

How many times would you need to chew on razor blades, before you discovered you didn’t like it?

Hey guys, I decided to try fractals today, so I went into this fractal called Molten Furence. Me and my group couldn’t finish it because we couldn’t avoid dying in the trap room in the end, but I think this fractal is very easy and the Drill mechanic is too boring.
Thetefore I conclude that all fractals are so easy and boring, and I won’t be trying them again.
Also I think that the Ascended rewards should be removed from such easy content, they should only be given for actual hard content, like Tequatl.

Btw, organizing a Tequatl squad, req: 10+ Spoons and Sunless title.

So is accessibility and varying degrees of difficulty a crime now in games?
Should you get more than the other players? Yes.
Should you get unique rewards in any game mode? No.

Even when I see how this is all sarcasm, I would dare you to replace one of your party with someone who knows how to do this fractal. If you do not manage it then, you should probably ask for a disability discount at your local store. An experienced fractal player can carry a group of toons that are piloted by a chimpansee, a raven, a dolphin and a jojo tied around the mouse through a lvl 1 fractal.
I am pretty sure a single experienced raider can´t pull 9 people with him through raids with a reasonable chance of success.

When I started to do Tequatl, I did not even know which successes were there to get and most of them I got by accident. If I had kept them all together, I would own a shop named “Spoonatorium” right now. That title basically kept on hounding me.^^

See the difference? You can come and go as you please from fractals and Tequatl without sinking the ship that is the content. So of course people will be mad when they have to prepare for hours and some people don´t cut the standard in raids.

I think nobody really disputes that raids are harder and less accessible than fractals.
And yes, there are more than enough fractal snobs too.

This is a good point, and something I felt was also a faulting on the raids system, individual skill did not make an impact, and what I mean by that, is in a fractal, a single highly skilled player can in fact make a massive improvement in the success rate of most instance based content. In Dungeons and Fractals, A single skilled player, if they have the skills, they could be the moving force behind the victory.

In a raid, that simply does not exist, you could be the best raid tank in the game, and it would not in fact improve the groups overall chance to beat the encounter anymore then if they had a ‘passably decent’ raid tank.

Maybe that is what people enjoy, good for them. Not sure how that equates to the ego that many people have, when in the end, they don’t individually matter that much.

So you are saying its a good thing that one person can carry an entire group of bads?

STIHL.2489:

Torolan.5816:

Coconut.7082:

STIHL.2489:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

I mean to be fair you’ve made several sweeping statements about the raiding community and raids with very little experience.

How many times would you need to chew on razor blades, before you discovered you didn’t like it?

Hey guys, I decided to try fractals today, so I went into this fractal called Molten Furence. Me and my group couldn’t finish it because we couldn’t avoid dying in the trap room in the end, but I think this fractal is very easy and the Drill mechanic is too boring.
Thetefore I conclude that all fractals are so easy and boring, and I won’t be trying them again.
Also I think that the Ascended rewards should be removed from such easy content, they should only be given for actual hard content, like Tequatl.

Btw, organizing a Tequatl squad, req: 10+ Spoons and Sunless title.

So is accessibility and varying degrees of difficulty a crime now in games?
Should you get more than the other players? Yes.
Should you get unique rewards in any game mode? No.

Even when I see how this is all sarcasm, I would dare you to replace one of your party with someone who knows how to do this fractal. If you do not manage it then, you should probably ask for a disability discount at your local store. An experienced fractal player can carry a group of toons that are piloted by a chimpansee, a raven, a dolphin and a jojo tied around the mouse through a lvl 1 fractal.
I am pretty sure a single experienced raider can´t pull 9 people with him through raids with a reasonable chance of success.

When I started to do Tequatl, I did not even know which successes were there to get and most of them I got by accident. If I had kept them all together, I would own a shop named “Spoonatorium” right now. That title basically kept on hounding me.^^

See the difference? You can come and go as you please from fractals and Tequatl without sinking the ship that is the content. So of course people will be mad when they have to prepare for hours and some people don´t cut the standard in raids.

I think nobody really disputes that raids are harder and less accessible than fractals.
And yes, there are more than enough fractal snobs too.

This is a good point, and something I felt was also a faulting on the raids system, individual skill did not make an impact, and what I mean by that, is in a fractal, a single highly skilled player can in fact make a massive improvement in the success rate of most instance based content. In Dungeons and Fractals, A single skilled player, if they have the skills, they could be the moving force behind the victory.

In a raid, that simply does not exist, you could be the best raid tank in the game, and it would not in fact improve the groups overall chance to beat the encounter anymore then if they had a ‘passably decent’ raid tank.

Maybe that is what people enjoy, good for them. Not sure how that equates to the ego that many people have, when in the end, they don’t individually matter that much.

Absolutely disagree. For instance:
A good raid tank will make phase 3 and 5 VG feel effortless because the green circles will always spawn in nicer locations.

Drastic difference between a good druid and a bad druid. Keeping up GotL and actually keeping up with heals makes a big difference in terms of how much leeway you get with bad seeker spawns.

A good healing tempest can DPS and heal.

What I’m trying to say is, many roles in a raid actually have very succinct, individual, goals. And if you are very good at your individual goal, while its not ‘increasing chances’ it definitely is giving ‘more room for error’. Which is essentially the same thing.

DrEckers.2039:

So you are saying its a good thing that one person can carry an entire group of bads?

Absolutely! Isn’t that the whole point of even bothering to playing a fantasy game to start with, to be the hero?

What other reason would someone have to continually improve their abilities and skills if they can’t directly augment the entire groups chance of success?

Think about it, If the entire groups chance of victory is contingent upon the ability of their worst player, not the best, there is no driving force to improve unless you are the worst player.

That’s funny because it’s how I feel about open world meta events. I’m basically doing everything while other scrublords just 111111 and they still die/down so I don’t do them anymore.

Raids however, I can do my part and make up for other people’s fails like pulling ads at gors if the mesmer missed the furthest one using DH F1 or giving people aegis for gors slam or going up to kill cannons at sabetha if someone else couldn’t make it etc.

Most raiders have the mentality to improve. They want to get better, not worse. Nobody looks at the group and goes “i’m not the worst so I’m gucci”. That’s not how raiders think. That’s not how PvPers think. That’s scrub mentality.

STIHL.2489:

DrEckers.2039:

So you are saying its a good thing that one person can carry an entire group of bads?

Absolutely! Isn’t that the whole point of even bothering to playing a fantasy game to start with, to be the hero?

What other reason would someone have to continually improve their abilities and skills if they can’t directly augment the entire groups chance of success?

Think about it, If the entire groups chance of victory is contingent upon the ability of their worst player, not the best, there is no driving force to improve unless you are the worst player.

Uh, no. If one player can carry the rest then there would be no driving force to improve for the majority of the players since someone else can do everything anyways.

STIHL.2489:

DrEckers.2039:

So you are saying its a good thing that one person can carry an entire group of bads?

Absolutely! Isn’t that the whole point of even bothering to playing a fantasy game to start with, to be the hero?

What other reason would someone have to continually improve their abilities and skills if they can’t directly augment the entire groups chance of success?

Think about it, If the entire groups chance of victory is contingent upon the ability of their worst player, not the best, there is no driving force to improve unless you are the worst player.

Ideally, the hardest group PvE content would demand a high level of play from all group members to succeed. I suspect the current raids don’t actually get to that level. However, I suspect they are at the level that most or all of the group must at least play competently.

A single character being the hero is the hallmark of single player RPG’s and heroic fantasy … well, I hesitate in most cases to call it literature. The GW2 story serves that purpose in GW2. MMO group content (and thus raids) is aimed, ultimately, at the demographic that came out of PnP RPG’s like Dungeons and Dragons. That stuff is aimed at groups, albeit that people can play with one player and a GM. In that game, a good GM will build the game around the capabilities of each of the characters. It’s rare that a single character will carry everyone else, though some amount of that happens in most groups I’ve seen.

This is also what a good raid would do. A hindering factor is that raids have typically been for larger groups. Ten, as in Gw2 raids, is about as small as I’ve seen. Designing encounters so that all ten shine in each one is difficult at best. The best I’ve seen is different encounters testing different capabilities.

I suspect in the future we might see game development evolve to the point where developers can produce content much more rapidly and that content will adapt to player actions. This might allow for the production of new stuff a lot more frequently, which might alleviate some of the repetition necessary in today’s genre. If the genre changed in those ways, we might see group content accessible to everyone, with systems linking players with different capabilities and adjusting the content to fit them, the way a good PnP GM will do. This would go a long way towards alleviating issues of exclusion.

I’m not sure I’ll live to see this, though.

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

DrEckers.2039:

So you are saying its a good thing that one person can carry an entire group of bads?

Absolutely! Isn’t that the whole point of even bothering to playing a fantasy game to start with, to be the hero?

What other reason would someone have to continually improve their abilities and skills if they can’t directly augment the entire groups chance of success?

Think about it, If the entire groups chance of victory is contingent upon the ability of their worst player, not the best, there is no driving force to improve unless you are the worst player.

Ideally, the hardest group PvE content would demand a high level of play from all group members to succeed. I suspect the current raids don’t actually get to that level. However, I suspect they are at the level that most or all of the group must at least play competently.

A single character being the hero is the hallmark of single player RPG’s and heroic fantasy … well, I hesitate in most cases to call it literature. The GW2 story serves that purpose in GW2. MMO group content (and thus raids) is aimed, ultimately, at the demographic that came out of PnP RPG’s like Dungeons and Dragons. That stuff is aimed at groups, albeit that people can play with one player and a GM. In that game, a good GM will build the game around the capabilities of each of the characters. It’s rare that a single character will carry everyone else, though some amount of that happens in most groups I’ve seen.

This is also what a good raid would do. A hindering factor is that raids have typically been for larger groups. Ten, as in Gw2 raids, is about as small as I’ve seen. Designing encounters so that all ten shine in each one is difficult at best. The best I’ve seen is different encounters testing different capabilities.

I suspect in the future we might see game development evolve to the point where developers can produce content much more rapidly and that content will adapt to player actions. This might allow for the production of new stuff a lot more frequently, which might alleviate some of the repetition necessary in today’s genre. If the genre changed in those ways, we might see group content accessible to everyone, with systems linking players with different capabilities and adjusting the content to fit them, the way a good PnP GM will do. This would go a long way towards alleviating issues of exclusion.

I’m not sure I’ll live to see this, though.

Two points:

• a Raid, well any Dungeon or Instance based Content, should be Engaging to all players, not so much requiring them to be stand alone, or to all have equal roles, but to engage them into the encounter. Case in point, someone brought up the Drill Room in Molten Furnace, great example, 2 people stand on Pads, 1 Person Opens the Door, the other two Keep the Mobs busy.

It embraces the idea that Everyone is engaged in the Situation, but, anyone can shine as well. One highly skilled player can make that encounter pretty easy, one poorly skilled player won’t end it. That is a good encounter design to me, were everyone is engaged, but not everyone is needed, and success is not contingent upon the least skilled or any single player, but upon the overall skill of the group and it’s ability to handle the encounter.

As far as what you are asking for, one of the paths in CoF, there are 4 bubbles, and 1 Lock. All players matter in that mechanic, they all matter equally. Everyone needs to hold their own, or “shine” as you put it.

You got what you wanted, an encounter where everyone shines or makes a miserable example of themselves, and it was well within your life time.

• Since you mentioned D&D, Feel free to check out Dungeons and Dragons Online, and see how different that game is to this one.

I’m not sure what your point is. One skilled player isn’t enough to carry the molten drill thing. You need the 2 people on the plates to not be terrible and dying or if they’re smart give aegis to the door opener then hop off but I’ve never seen pugs do this.

This is probably the worst example of everybody is engaged but anyone can shine. What is there to shine? If the other 4 suck and die there’s nothing you can do solo but respawn and redo the whole thing. This is basically the same “problem” with raids is it not?

It doesn’t surprise me that STIHL doesn’t understand how a good player can carry a raid team or how a bad player can ruin it… You’ve not even killed VG, right?

We have a chrono who makes sick plays. Like hitting a 1s distortion share when a player is about to get flamewalled. I’ve made a few great plays myself with Transfusion on Matty G, pulling 3 downed players out of wells.

You’re criticizing something from a position of ignorance and it’s obvious.

fishball.7204:

I’m not sure what your point is. One skilled player isn’t enough to carry the molten drill thing. You need the 2 people on the plates to not be terrible and dying or if they’re smart give aegis to the door opener then hop off but I’ve never seen pugs do this.

This is probably the worst example of everybody is engaged but anyone can shine. What is there to shine? If the other 4 suck and die there’s nothing you can do solo but respawn and redo the whole thing.

Great question.

You can’t solo it, that is true, and you have 4 deads, lets be honest, unless you were running an upper pad and not in the room when they all opted to suicide charge, you could have done more to save them, and instead opted to just watch them die.

But moving on, Lets say you have 3 bads in the group, you give them the job to stand on the plates and get the door, (Pretty simple, just stand there) while you pull the agro and dance the mobs around, the 4 person opens the upper pad so you can be with the lower group to keep them alive, assuming the 4th person is not a bad, they could come down and help you mitigate agro, if they are bad, they can die at the upper pad.

Everyone was engaged in the encounter with a job to do, while your skill to manage the mobs and agro made the encounter clean and done. If you have never had to do that… then you need to Open Pug More, it will happen, kind fun when it does. because, after the encounter, you’re not going to get a trophy for it, truth is, depending on the skill of the group, they might not even know what you did, till they try to do it without you, LOL.

So yah, as simple as that encounter seems, everyone was engaged in doing a task, while someone with the right skills and abilities was able to shine and make the whole thing plausible.

How well you do on the Boss, that would remain to be seen however. I remember solo kiting the Boss though Molten Traps while my friend was on the levers all the while the rest of the group took turns rezzing each other, and while it was tedious, it was also a testament to perseverance and skill, as well as a full group is people unwilling to quit, they died by the buckets, but just got back up and keep going at it. It was inspiring, made me and my friend feel great that we could pull that off too. I think they realized they needed some improvement after that, but we still won the fight and walked away with our daily.

To me, that is what the game is about. Those fights that you talk about for years after. Those pulling out the victory from the jaws of defeat. Long after you stopped playing, you sill joke with your friends about some of the most harrowing encounters where it came down to just you (or your friend as the case may be) to be the hero and save the moment.

It’s a game, at some point we will stop playing it, and the digital baubles will be worthless, but those moments, that thrill, that chance to really shine and be able to share that with the people right there with you… that is all the take away you will ever get.

If you get that from raids, kudos.

In the end, you won’t get anything from trying to say you’re better then anyone, like some of the pro-raid groups here put out, or trying to tear another player down because they don’t like your favorite game mode. That’s just toxic.

I don’t care if someone does not like fractals, I enjoy them. If someone wants a legendary back item for doing something other then fractals, I say give it to them, make a back item for Jumping Puzzles, make another one liked to all the Dungeons. It only makes the game better when people are rewarded for doing what they find fun and enjoy.

When people get petty, belligerent, towards others, simple for disagreeing with them, or needing to feel that the only way they can feel special is if others are denied something, that poisons them, and that’s a horrible thing to let happen to yourself over a game.

Play for Fun, Do what you Love, Find Some Joy, and share it. Allow others to do the same, in the end, it’s a game, all you will get is the memories, is this forum fight something you want to remember 10 years from now?

Because.. you will.

Torolan.5816:

So is accessibility and varying degrees of difficulty a crime now in games?
Should you get more than the other players? Yes.
Should you get unique rewards in any game mode? No.

Completely disagree.

If all modes of play have homogeneous rewards then there’s no incentive to branch out and do anything other than what offers rewards quickest, which turns the entire game into gold farm simulator 2016.

Unique rewards are required in this game for driving players to different aspects and area’s in the game.

TexZero.7910:

Torolan.5816:

So is accessibility and varying degrees of difficulty a crime now in games?
Should you get more than the other players? Yes.
Should you get unique rewards in any game mode? No.

Completely disagree.

If all modes of play have homogeneous rewards then there’s no incentive to branch out and do anything other than what offers rewards quickest, which turns the entire game into gold farm simulator 2016.

Unique rewards are required in this game for driving players to different aspects and area’s in the game.

But I want to farm SW all the time and get all the lootz! /s

TexZero.7910:

Torolan.5816:

So is accessibility and varying degrees of difficulty a crime now in games?
Should you get more than the other players? Yes.
Should you get unique rewards in any game mode? No.

Completely disagree.

If all modes of play have homogeneous rewards then there’s no incentive to branch out and do anything other than what offers rewards quickest, which turns the entire game into gold farm simulator 2016.

Unique rewards are required in this game for driving players to different aspects and area’s in the game.

I don´t want to promote gold farming either. I personally don´t usually spend much time farming this or that, at least not for days and the whole day. But if someone wants to spend his game time doing this, I see no reason why Anet should attempt to lure him away from this.

I dispute the claim that it should be mandatory to improve in a given role while having fun.
Playing games has the effect of improving on all of us anyway, it is our way of finding things out we are good at and things we are bad at.
Free play and the situational approach are the way to go in modern education.
Education long tried to waltz out faults of children, but modern education tries to find strengths instead of averaging weaknesses in children. Too bad that this collides with the acadamic mindset of being at least average in everything, so we are in for an exciting time when we try to stuff a child that was raised with free play and choices into a system that enforces obedience, sitting still and doing things you are not the slightest interested in.

A content has to stand on his own feet or is relegated to its own fanbase. An unique reward is a crutch to make it more desireable when you in fact do not desire to make the content. It is a tactic I utterly despite although I have to use it on children very often for the sake of meeting the educational goals the country government sets up with them.

STIHL.2489:

How well you do on the Boss, that would remain to be seen however. I remember solo kiting the Boss though Molten Traps while my friend was on the levers all the while the rest of the group took turns rezzing each other, and while it was tedious, it was also a testament to perseverance and skill, as well as a full group is people unwilling to quit, they died by the buckets, but just got back up and keep going at it. It was inspiring, made me and my friend feel great that we could pull that off too. I think they realized they needed some improvement after that, but we still won the fight and walked away with our daily.

To me, that is what the game is about. Those fights that you talk about for years after. Those pulling out the victory from the jaws of defeat. Long after you stopped playing, you sill joke with your friends about some of the most harrowing encounters where it came down to just you (or your friend as the case may be) to be the hero and save the moment.

It’s a game, at some point we will stop playing it, and the digital baubles will be worthless, but those moments, that thrill, that chance to really shine and be able to share that with the people right there with you… that is all the take away you will ever get.

If you get that from raids, kudos.

Well, it’s obvious that you have never taken a serious footstep into raiding. Yes, I do also remember those epic duos in fractals and dungeon with a friend or even soloing Lupicus when all other pugs died and it felt good and yeah, sometimes you felt a bit proud too.
But as a person that has never been in an MMO before and never seen any raid I can tell you that it was much more impressive to get VG down with 10 people some days after release. The atmosphere was thrilling and the feeling way more satisfying than anything else I’ve found out before and I will never forget that ever.

Torolan.5816:

TexZero.7910:

Torolan.5816:

So is accessibility and varying degrees of difficulty a crime now in games?
Should you get more than the other players? Yes.
Should you get unique rewards in any game mode? No.

Completely disagree.

If all modes of play have homogeneous rewards then there’s no incentive to branch out and do anything other than what offers rewards quickest, which turns the entire game into gold farm simulator 2016.

Unique rewards are required in this game for driving players to different aspects and area’s in the game.

I don´t want to promote gold farming either. I personally don´t usually spend much time farming this or that, at least not for days and the whole day. But if someone wants to spend his game time doing this, I see no reason why Anet should attempt to lure him away from this.

I dispute the claim that it should be mandatory to improve in a given role while having fun.
Playing games has the effect of improving on all of us anyway, it is our way of finding things out we are good at and things we are bad at.
Free play and the situational approach are the way to go in modern education.
Education long tried to waltz out faults of children, but modern education tries to find strengths instead of averaging weaknesses in children. Too bad that this collides with the acadamic mindset of being at least average in everything, so we are in for an exciting time when we try to stuff a child that was raised with free play and choices into a system that enforces obedience, sitting still and doing things you are not the slightest interested in.

A content has to stand on his own feet or is relegated to its own fanbase. An unique reward is a crutch to make it more desireable when you in fact do not desire to make the content. It is a tactic I utterly despite although I have to use it on children very often for the sake of meeting the educational goals the country government sets up with them.

The content does stand on it’s own…

The unique rewards are there to drive more players than just those who enjoy raids to give them a shot.

Just like the unique rewards in PvP were, just as the unique Festival Rewards do, just as pretty much every content piece ever designed for any game has done before it.

Torolan.5816:

A content has to stand on his own feet or is relegated to its own fanbase. An unique reward is a crutch to make it more desireable when you in fact do not desire to make the content. It is a tactic I utterly despite although I have to use it on children very often for the sake of meeting the educational goals the country government sets up with them.

A content has to stand on his own feet AND give good reward, you can’t have just one of them for a PvE part of a MMO. It’s PvE, the encounters stay the same over time. You can take the best PvE content ever created by anyone, it will still become boring or repetitive at some point. The only type of content that can get away with bad reward is good PvP because playing against other human make all match feel different. But even PvP are usually view as more interesting when they give reward. Some of my friend didn’t start to play PvP in GW2 until they start to give better reward. Why? Because even if they like PvP, they also like working on their character and account. And try to create a Multiplayer game wihtout reward, LoL, Dota, CSGO, Overwatch, CoD, Battlefield, they all have reward system now because people want that.

Vinceman.4572:

STIHL.2489:

How well you do on the Boss, that would remain to be seen however. I remember solo kiting the Boss though Molten Traps while my friend was on the levers all the while the rest of the group took turns rezzing each other, and while it was tedious, it was also a testament to perseverance and skill, as well as a full group is people unwilling to quit, they died by the buckets, but just got back up and keep going at it. It was inspiring, made me and my friend feel great that we could pull that off too. I think they realized they needed some improvement after that, but we still won the fight and walked away with our daily.

To me, that is what the game is about. Those fights that you talk about for years after. Those pulling out the victory from the jaws of defeat. Long after you stopped playing, you sill joke with your friends about some of the most harrowing encounters where it came down to just you (or your friend as the case may be) to be the hero and save the moment.

It’s a game, at some point we will stop playing it, and the digital baubles will be worthless, but those moments, that thrill, that chance to really shine and be able to share that with the people right there with you… that is all the take away you will ever get.

If you get that from raids, kudos.

Well, it’s obvious that you have never taken a serious footstep into raiding. Yes, I do also remember those epic duos in fractals and dungeon with a friend or even soloing Lupicus when all other pugs died and it felt good and yeah, sometimes you felt a bit proud too.
But as a person that has never been in an MMO before and never seen any raid I can tell you that it was much more impressive to get VG down with 10 people some days after release. The atmosphere was thrilling and the feeling way more satisfying than anything else I’ve found out before and I will never forget that ever.

I have been raiding in MMO’s, since well, raids existed, I’ve seen them evolve from Mega World Bosses that only spawned once a week into what is an instance based ‘double group’ dungeon that was done on timed rotations. I’ve killed more Raid Bosses then I care to count, but, my first was Lady Vox. Never seem to forget that, after all these years.

None the less, There is a whole legion of worlds out there to experience and I’ve played my share of them.

Anyway, Glad you’re building memories.

Go build a million more of them, just try not to become toxic in the process. Learn to let other people have their fun, get their baubles as you collect whatever paltry shinies you can from this game and you’re next however many.

My GEB’s, RMB’s, and Cloak of Flames are vaporware today, even tho it took me months to get them. My Epic Sword of Shadows is now just a bit code in some other game, means nothing here. I can’t wave it around to you all, and say “Look at me and be impressed” none of you would be, so, I hate to say it, don’t expect any of us to be impressed by what you do in this game, or when the time comes, and you move on, no one is going to care if you dropped Sabatah or got a legendary back scratchier, anymore then you would care that I soloed Shroud on a Bard or that my pally was always wearing an Epic Torq.

Learn that the real value is in fun, the laughs, and the memories, the good times, the thrills and chills you build, not the items you get. Never worth it to become toxic over a game. There will be many other games, but only one you.

Not worth it to poison yourself over digital junk.

So ask yourself, what are you trying to prove here, what was your point to engage me? What did you hope to gain?

STIHL.2489:

I have been raiding in MMO’s, since well, raids existed, I’ve seen them evolve from Mega World Bosses that only spawned once a week into what is an instance based ‘double group’ dungeon that was done on timed rotations. I’ve killed more Raid Bosses then I care to count, but, my first was Lady Vox. Never seem to forget that, after all these years.

None the less, There is a whole legion of worlds out there to experience and I’ve played my share of them.

Anyway, Glad you’re building memories.

Go build a million more of them, just try not to become toxic in the process. Learn to let other people have their fun, get their baubles as you collect whatever paltry shinies you can from this game and you’re next however many.

My GEB’s, RMB’s, and Cloak of Flames are vaporware today, even tho it took me months to get them. My Epic Sword of Shadows is now just a bit code in some other game, means nothing here. I can’t wave it around to you all, and say “Look at me and be impressed” none of you would be, so, I hate to say it, don’t expect any of us to be impressed by what you do in this game, or when the time comes, and you move on, no one is going to care if you dropped Sabatah or got a legendary back scratchier, anymore then you would care that I soloed Shroud on a Bard or that my pally was always wearing an Epic Torq.

Learn that the real value is in fun, the laughs, and the memories, the good times, the thrills and chills you build, not the items you get. Never worth it to become toxic over a game. There will be many other games, but only one you.

Not worth it to poison yourself over digital junk.

So ask yourself, what are you trying to prove here, what was your point to engage me? What did you hope to gain?

You were the one talking bad about raids in GW2 and a toxic environment especially in this community while it’s not debatable that certain communities behaved like this in every online game so far. You had no point here and with your explanation of being a raider in other game your presence here with those written words is just….I don’t know, ridiculous or absurd could be the right words.

Yeah i’m not really seeing a point here at all. Talking about what you did in other games has zero relationship to anything in GW2 because we honestly don’t care if you were some pro raider or some causal.

Plenty of us have fun raiding in GW2 with zero toxicity involved. I’ve probably met like 2 out of 200+ people that I would consider toxic and that percentage is far higher in sPvP and far lower than what people seem to suggest.

Also, I don’t know about the others here but I don’t care what you think or don’t think about me in GW2. You’re literally some dude I don’t know or care about in game and even here on forums you’re just some dude I’m replying to. Likewise, I’m nobody to you and that’s fine.

These things have no bearing on whether you raid or not in GW2 and to blame these things is such a defeatist attitude.

Vinceman.4572:

You were the one talking bad about raids in GW2 and a toxic environment especially in this community while it’s not debatable that certain communities behaved like this in every online game so far. You had no point here and with your explanation of being a raider in other game your presence here with those written words is just….I don’t know, ridiculous or absurd could be the right words.

What… amazed that one time I said the same things you have, (maybe a whole lot worse) at a different time on a different forum?

Why does that sound absurd to you? Ever stop and think, that maybe, over the course of the last 17 some odd years of seeing months and years of spending time to master the difficult content turn to vapor the second I opted to move on to something else, that maybe, after I have been playing MMO’s long enough, that I learned how futile your stand really is, because I have been there?

If PvE isn’t fun to you anymore, stop playing it. And stop getting into arguments on forums about things you don’t enjoy.

I can’t make you do these things, ofcourse, but since you’re very high on your 17 years of life experience I thought I would add some helpful life advice from my experience. You’ll be happier in the long run if you limit your interaction with upsetting things.

NikeEU.7690:

If PvE isn’t fun to you anymore, stop playing it. And stop getting into arguments on forums about things you don’t enjoy.

I can’t make you do these things, ofcourse, but since you’re very high on your 17 years of life experience I thought I would add some helpful life advice from my experience. You’ll be happier in the long run if you limit your interaction with upsetting things.

This advice can be hard to follow, but it’s good advice. I try to tell myself semi-regularly, “It’s okay to not have an opinion on this. Or to have an opinion, but to not feel strongly about it.”

It’s weird how the internet seems to push all opinions to the extreme. Like, if a friend told me chocolate ice cream sucked, I’d say, “Well, it’s not my favorite, but it’s good. I don’t think it sucks.”

But on the internet, that would turn into a 300-comment thread that ends up as a discussion of something completely different.