Guild Wars 2

I understand correcting the problem with exploiting dungeons and farming the first boss.

Why didn’t we get a simple lockout system instead of this hacked approach of rewarding nothing at all when working with a PUG for 4/5 of a dungeion?

This is insulting to those of us who came here hoping to have a game that supports PUGs and casual play.

You have solved a minor farming issue and destroyed our ability to have consistent and good PUGs.

Could we have a lockout or something instead, please? Just don’t let people run dungeons over and over 5 minutes after one another – devs in every other game seem to be able to manage this.

At this point I don’t want to log in – I love dungeons, I love PUGs, you have made it near impossible because of lazy design.

PUGs and dungeons are not compatible here. At least, about 80% pugs. It is ok to get 4 ppl in voice chat, and get random kitten th, but thats all.

I think your groups can be described by both laziness and ineptitude. I have only pugged in this game and out of 50 dungeons I started I have completed 48 which is a very good percentage. The problem is in the players not in the dungeons or devs. You are supposed to adapt to this game, the game is not supposed to adapt to you.

aleiro.8521:

You are supposed to adapt to this game, the game is not supposed to adapt to you.

This type of hard-line attitude destroys games.

If the devs always bow to the wants of the player base, it’s just spineless pandering. If the devs outright refuse to change anything for the players, it turns into a mess that is doomed to failure. Compromise is the magic word.

ANet needs to be looking at their systems all the time to discover things that can be done better. If the current dungeon reward system is poorly-implemented (it is) then it’s up to the developer to find a balance between incentive to run dungeons and ensuring that players don’t feel it necessary to spam run one or two bosses before resetting.

Right now, many of the people wearing full sets of Arah/CoF gear obtained it through exploits and/or speed running bosses. That was not okay, but the current system is equally terrible because you get NOTHING for running 99% of a dungeon, yet being unable to deal with the final boss for whatever reason.

If your post is any indicator, you believe this system is fine and should be kept to punish the lazy and inept. Elitism for its own sake if I’ve ever seen it – backing a flawed system out of disdain for people who aren’t as “l33t” as you are.

If you can’t complete lower lvl dungeons, then you should set dungeons aside before you have better knowledge of your class/synergy with your team. Successful and consistent runs come with experience and knowledge of your and other’s abilities and limits. As you noted yourself, you’re running with PUGs. That usually has a 50/50 chance of going well or terribad, since you have 4 random factors to consider to your own abilities. Dungeons are meant for group play not 5x solo PvE’rs trying to faceroll the place. Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t mind doing PUG runs, I’ve met some great players going full PUG or having a couple of randoms in our group. But organized group beats PUGs always. I’d suggest socializing and finding people with the same interests as you, so you would have a steady group to run with.

Considering old system vs new system, imo the rewards are much better now and after not getting hit with the diminished returns bug, gearing up alts is a breeze. Getting minimal 1 piece of max stats gear by completing all the paths per day is totally fine + ofc the 50-60+ silver you gain each run. Aside from the balance issues+bugs some dungeons have, I don’t see an issue with this system.

Sorry but I am not elite or whatever. This is implied in the fact that I have only pugged…. I hardly play 2 hours a day. If I can finish dungeons so can you.
The problem here is lazyness, lazyness to learn new mechanics, to understand such mechanics and to adapt. You just want easy loot and that’s no good. Exotic loot in the game is real easy to obtain, you can craft, you can get karma or you can run dungeons. Any of those will do. For me finishing dungeons is in itself a reward, especially if they are hard. The loot is collateral. I like playing the game most of all, doing all boss fights, no skips or exploits. I like that it is not overly easy, it just makes me feel that much better when I finally finish the dungeon. If you want a certain skin then you have to run dungeons.
I do believe that they need to increase loot rewards, maybe increase rare chance even more, but I think tokens need to stay as they are. Why would you be able to obtain a dungeon set without ever completing said dungeon?
I do think they need to implement a system where you can “save progress” in the dungeons, so that if you have been in the dungeon too long and are tired, you can start where you left off the day before with your mates. Then you can learn mechanics and in the end, when you finally finish you still get your reward.
Tokens for not finishing are just like giving dogs a steak for pissing in your carpet…

aleiro.8521:

Sorry but I am not elite or whatever. This is implied in the fact that I have only pugged…. I hardly play 2 hours a day. If I can finish dungeons so can you.
The problem here is lazyness, lazyness to learn new mechanics, to understand such mechanics and to adapt. You just want easy loot and that’s no good. Exotic loot in the game is real easy to obtain, you can craft, you can get karma or you can run dungeons. Any of those will do. For me finishing dungeons is in itself a reward, especially if they are hard. The loot is collateral. I like playing the game most of all, doing all boss fights, no skips or exploits. I like that it is not overly easy, it just makes me feel that much better when I finally finish the dungeon. If you want a certain skin then you have to run dungeons.
I do believe that they need to increase loot rewards, maybe increase rare chance even more, but I think tokens need to stay as they are. Why would you be able to obtain a dungeon set without ever completing said dungeon?
I do think they need to implement a system where you can “save progress” in the dungeons, so that if you have been in the dungeon too long and are tired, you can start where you left off the day before with your mates. Then you can learn mechanics and in the end, when you finally finish you still get your reward.
Tokens for not finishing are just like giving dogs a steak for pissing in your carpet…

If a group goes in, kills 5 out of 6 bosses, and then can’t finish the last boss for whatever reason, you really think it’s okay to have them walk away with nothing but a few silver in blue vendor trash? I completely disagree with that mentality, and ArenaNet has made it clear that they do as well.

Your idea of “fair” is to hold people hostage for tokens, and that is a painfully short-sighted approach to designing a reward system. If player X can’t finish the run due to real life obligations, they get absolutely nothing? What if they can’t finish because they’re the only one capable of staying alive against the boss while everyone else decides not to use their dodge button? What if the instance bugs out and prevents you from completing the dungeon? (this one in particular has killed two AC runs for me so far). With a system in which the player obtains a small number of tokens per boss, they at least didn’t completely waste 90 minutes for no reward at all.

The idea is to reward people appropriately for their efforts, not to screw them over for things beyond their control, which is exactly what the current system (which you seem to believe in wholeheartedly) does.

I’m sorry, except the occasional bugs with npcs, what’s beyond your control regarding dungeons? We have a saying with guildmates towards each other that we use jokingly, but I think it’s appropriate here: “Suck less”.

I’m the OP and perhaps need to clarify my point.

First, I can complete dungeons; have been doing it since week1.

The Devs had a problem — people (often those saying “don’t suck”) were exploiting by chain-running one boss ever 5 minutes. Needed to be fixed.

EVERY game has this type problem. The simplest, fairest, and cleanest way to fix it is a lockout on repeating a dungeon. Therefore people get credit for what they’ve actually done, but can’t farm the easy part.

Instead ANET chose to screw over anyone who, for whatever reason, can’t finish more than 99% on any given run. Perhaps personal life intrudes, perhaps the particular group just can’t get it done. The point is, to stop you original exploiters, they’ve moved to a cumbersome, silly system – all I can imagine is they didn’t want to put the programming effort into a lockout system.

That’s my open request – keep them hard, I like that, but consider giving people who spend several hours, and get 99% done, a fair reward. It’s not rocket science.

(and yes, of course dungeons are easy for people in large enough guilds using vent/TS3/mumble/skype – not all choose to play like that – I’m asking that we make it possible for more casual players to get partial credit for what they can do))

The partial credit system is coming – so in that vein you should be fine. Your suggestion of a lockout system though I wholeheartedly disagree with. There are times where I run dungeons (the same path) multiple times a day just to help people. I don’t need anything really from dungeons on either character at this point, but I enjoy doing them. A lockout is a very hardline approach to ‘stopping’ you from doing something. Take away the rewards all you want, that part doesn’t bother me – but locking me out of content I’m not onboard with.

On a personal note, generally the people who are on here saying “don’t suck” aren’t the ones who exploit(ed) anything, those people are in the “WAH WAH DUNGEONS ARE TOO HARD NOW” threads.

Lockout are a dual edged sword. On one hand you are correct – it makes it easy for players to quit mid dungeon and be rewarded w/o exploiting a system. On the other hand it creates an even worse artificial grind. I was never a fan of them because if I did a dungeon early morning with a PuG – I wouldn’t be able to do it again if my brother logged on later. It split communities because you are all on unique timers.

Granted with the path system it might be possible (lock out a path completed, but you can still do other paths) so it might work better than in other MMO’s.

Will be interesting to see how ANet handles partial rewards since they use no RNG system.

AzureDream.4819:

PUGs and dungeons are not compatible here. At least, about 80% pugs. It is ok to get 4 ppl in voice chat, and get random kitten th, but thats all.

Maybe for some of them. I was in a PUG that breezed right on through the first two paths in explorable mode Honor of the Waves’. (That is actually the only time I have played explorable mode thus far.) At least one of the people knew it well, but it was still a PUG.

I think the system in place is actually very effective in determining the dungeon rewards. They are called “rewards” for a reason. As in you have to earn them. I know it sucks that sometimes you have to leave unexpectedly due to real life reasons, but realistically how often does that happen. Another reason you stated above for non-completion was that a party couldn’t dodge. In my opinion that is NOT a valid reason for getting free rewards. Dungeons are almost the only place where coordination is needed, we need to keep this or what else is there?

Lets take Arah for an example. The instance is long, yes. The instance is difficult, yes. Therefore having the dungeons rewards means you have really mastered the dungeon, and know what your actually doing in the game, not button mashing like DE’s.

Continuing with the Arah example, the biggest obstacle (in most paths) is Mr Lupicus. This is one of the more difficult fights in the game for many. You also encounter him in every single path, therefore to get tokens you need to do him. That’s great. In a game with no stat progression, the only progression is skill, and dungeon rewards show that. If you remove this system, once again we will see people in Arah sets that haven’t even stepped into his arena.

Alternatively most bosses before Gigantus Lupicus are simple, if people are allowed to simply do them for tokens, no matter how long it takes them, it will cheapen and devalue those rewards for all people that have earned them.

I would’ve disagreed with the OP.

However, I was disconnected right at 25% hp of the final boss, when I get back on 5 minutes later, he is already dead and I didn’t get any loot.

As someone who disconnects a lot, I need this.

It takes less than 30mins (less than 20 in some dungeons i.e. COF) to complete a path in this game.

With regards to the title of this thread the exact same can be said about the OP, laziness or ineptitude to finish a path?
The poster above me just made an invalid scenario, if you have a bad connection i suggest you look into a different ISP, as this is clearly an issue with your net and NOT the game.

As someone who’s pugged all of his COF gear POST EXPLOITS, i have managed to finish every single dungeon with pugs in reasonable time.
This is a l2p issue and/or laziness tbh, which is ironic considering the nature of this thread.

Jasekak.6352:

I understand correcting the problem with exploiting dungeons and farming the first boss.

Why didn’t we get a simple lockout system instead of this hacked approach of rewarding nothing at all when working with a PUG for 4/5 of a dungeion?

This is insulting to those of us who came here hoping to have a game that supports PUGs and casual play.

You have solved a minor farming issue and destroyed our ability to have consistent and good PUGs.

Could we have a lockout or something instead, please? Just don’t let people run dungeons over and over 5 minutes after one another – devs in every other game seem to be able to manage this.

At this point I don’t want to log in – I love dungeons, I love PUGs, you have made it near impossible because of lazy design.

Jasekak, even though I see your point; the way your solution is wrong.

Yes, the easiest way to fix it would’ve been a lock out timer but that would’ve hurt the pugs even more: With a lock out, if you go inside a dungeon with a lock out timer with a bad team, you are screwed. You won’t be able to finish the run AND you won’t be able to enter again with a different group.

The hardest (and better) way to fix it is what they did. Of course it requires more work (which renders your topic tittle inaccurate) and brought in new problems, that were already fixed.-

Even with the partial credit given out to 80% complete dungeons, the mechanics of certain paths are ridiculous and again for the most part you can not pug exp modes.

I have run about 4 exp modes and here is what happened to each of them

Arah – server crashed group disbanded

COF magg bomb planting event a zillion mobs to kite and and your dead in less than five secs un doable group gave up disbanded

COE Subject alpha second encounter like the first i used air attunement to run around and dodge his aoes. However it still not enough and i get trapped in his crystal and he is still able to hit me due to unfair mechanics one shot ko with aoes. Leader had to go and group gave up.

Lastly CM butler path several deaths before hand and eventually get to the trap hallway with two mobs at the other end. Two many deaths and player leaves the group disbands…

You see where i am going here. After CM, i have yet to set foot into another exp mode. I eventually got my tailoring to 400 and crafting a rare berserker set. Yes i think it will help me but i am unwilling to waste more time, effort , money on dungeons which were poorly designed. I am tired of not completing these exp modes. I am sorry but exp modes have to be made puggable.

William Fairfield.1428:

Hey everyone.

We are looking into an additional reward system to add to bosses so that killing a single boss feels a lot more rewarding than it does right now. We are gathering data internally on it and will release information on it as it gets closer to being implemented.

Being stuck at the last boss and unable to finish the dungeon thus receiving now reward is a terrible feeling for any player, hardcore or casual. We are looking to remedy this.

Iteration is the name of the game

How about making that apply to ALL bosses instead of just the first. Would be nice to have a small chance at getting some cool looking drops off a boss. Would add some excitement to the long tedious and boring grind for tokens.

issacTheMarker.8530:

I am sorry but exp modes have to be made puggable.

I’m glad there is already a thread named “Be careful who you listen to regarding difficulty”.

I like Mog’s suggestion…. open up the rewards to being (potentially) the item skins that you can only get from the forge, repair canisters, mystic coins, mystic stone thingys, boosters, dye packs, stashes of crafting mats (whether it’s the harvest mats or the mats you get from mobs).

There’s literally so many things available yet the rewards seem to be fixated on a small portion of the items available in the game.

I wish Dungeons in GW2 where like this:

1) Have a LFG system ala WoW

2) Be rewarded for every boss kill with specific items and tokens

3) Be able to run the same dungeon as many times as you want, place a daily lockout if the gear being rewards is that great otherwise let us run the same dungeon as many times as we want…after all some of us actually love Dungeon crawling ALOT! – ever since the days of Everquest.

4) Make boss fights interesting like have us bring condition remover to the fight, or get our of red circle, or interact with an object every so often to cause damage or range or melee but not this zerg fest we have now with no logical way of defeating a boss. Right now it feels like all u need to do is zerg the boss after u die and keep doing that till he dies, it feels cheap.
5) Do away with terrible dungeon mechanics like in CoF Magg run where you try to stay alive against massive waves of npc and all you do in that fight is run, die, run game from the grave (waypoint) back into the fight to just run around without ever figthing, healing, dodging or anything…so badly designed am embarrassed.

Maybe at least one of these will be implemented…

I’ve pugged every dungeon run I’ve ever done. I usually only have 1 guildie with me, if that. I now have TA gloves, SE offhand and the AC staff. I’ve failed to complete… Oh maybe 7 runs? Probably less. Out of however many it takes to get that many tokens. And I got that SE offhand before the token rewards got boosted. I don’t know what you’ve been doing dude, but either my mesmer carries very hard, I’m impossibly lucky, or you’re the pug that people fear.

Total misconception of PUGs tbh which borders on elitism for some of the posts here. While the OP wants gratification for every boss killed along the way (which I agree upon) I see some dumb posts mention stuff like “don’t suck” and such. Obviously some people here are better at the last bosses of EM dungeons than being able to read and understand an OP. The reason people leave groups sometimes in PUGs are most of the time RL related not ineptitude, it also happens when sometimes an elitist player joins and in the first encounter people are down (probably because it’s their first run) and boom our Elitist player dumps the group. Happened to my group in TA, one such guy did that, we found someone else and completed TA EM anyway and we had fun doing that. Same happened in Arah.
Yea we all know what’ I’m talking about here. I have run all my dungeons so far on PUGs because I enjoy Pugs more than stuck up elitist groups who treat everyone else like they where born with half a brain. So to sum up this, PUgs are well capable to run through EMs, I’ve done it and many have. Why? Because, yes people make mistakes but they also learn from their mistakes and they are willing to try, that in fact makes the run much more challenging than a “breeze through run” that would be lackluster over all. In all honesty I find my philosophy of " make mistakes and learn from them" much more enjoyable than the one that says “don’t suck or leave”.