Guild Wars 2

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Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

I think he’s saying – and I’m certainly saying – that people should just stop trying to weasel their way into raid rewards without actually putting in the time and effort required to get them.

Danikat.8537:

I’m another non-raider. I keep saying I may try it at some point but I’m highly unlikely to be any good at it if I do.

I think the only acceptable suggestion would be your Option 1.

Except I’d actually take it further: Make it work like the story instances so it can be completed by 1 person alone, or by a group of up to 10 (or whatever a normal raid group is).

And then remove all raid specific rewards, achievements, mastery tracks and points, legendary components, anything you can currently only get within the raid. If there are any drops it should be normal champion bags and other open-world drops, stuff you can get anywhere.

If you genuinely just want to play through the storyline then you’ve got exactly what you want. If you want the raid rewards then you do the raid.

I’d actually love that because I do want to see the story, and I want to see it in a format where I’d feel free to watch cut scenes instead of skipping them as quickly as possible to make sure the run is “efficient”, to talk to NPCs and explore any dialogue choices etc. I do want some of the raid rewards too (specifically the mini pets) but I accept that I need to actually complete the content to get them.

This is actually decent – but how is it much different than a cleared instance?

There is no fantastic lore that the fights themselves contain – so what would be the point?

A cleared instance gives you: Access to all the lore and no rewards – and it doesn’t require more developer time.

I believe a solution for lore-lovers would be if Anet allowed anyone to open a cleared raid instance at any time.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Well, im glad option 1 seems to have gained popularity at least, it seems to be something ive noticed alot of forum posts suggest in the past so my reasoning was, giving 2 types of compramises allows non raiders to enjoy that content aswell.

Exclusivity, is not something of a motto that GW2 was ever made for, GW2 has always been about “everyone” being able to do something.

I do not think that actual raiding needs to be nerfed at its current form just so that it becomes a joke, I appriciate, you raiders want a challenge, and you want your loot.

I dont think thats a bad thing to want.

What I dont think is fair, is that if I want to fill in the blanks between S2 and 3, I should not have to Youtube someone elses playthrough, I should be allowed to experience that story for myself.

I do think its reasonable to say, people who want to keep up to date with the lore, have a right to want to, even if that lore feels small or minor.

Theres a reason Aether Path in TA is rarley done, and yet many wanted to do it, tying content exclusivity to gameplay that only a few can access, simply put, sucks.

GW2 was always about “everyone being able to do something” – that’s very true. And anyone can do “something” – but not everyone can do everything – which is basically what you want and should never happen.

Exclusivity is relevant in GW2 as it is in ANY MMO. GW2 promised no gear-grind and no exclusivity based on vertical progression – it never said it would not have exclusive skins that are skill-gated.

Also I don’t remember GW2’s advertisement ever saying you can do and have everything regardless of what your skill is. And I know my GW2 advertisement pretty kitten well.

Have you actually tried joining a cleared instance?

Linken.6345:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

No reason at all that they should get nothing after a certain time mate.
If they get 1/5 or 1/10 of the full reward, why do you care if you can get the full reward?

Because being bad should not be rewarded.

I’m not against a story mode of sorts so long as no rewards are given.

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

As opposed to people paying for a spot in a top end team’s raid group now?

At least the suggestion gives the “honest” lower end players the possibility of experiencing the story (the point of this thread) without gutting the raid for higher end players, or requiring extensive dev resources for complete rework of the raid.

No option is perfect. Your issue with the suggestion is a reality now. The suggestion doesnt add it, in fact it reduces the possibility by making access to the story easier for players disinclined to pay someone else to play for them if they can do it themselves.

How can they not experience the raid story in a cleared instance?

How demanding would it be for the devs to give EVERYONE the chance to open a fully cleared instance at any time?

There are solutions already in the game – and there are OTHER easier solutions out there – read what I wrote.

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

As opposed to people paying for a spot in a top end team’s raid group now?

At least the suggestion gives the “honest” lower end players the possibility of experiencing the story (the point of this thread) without gutting the raid for higher end players, or requiring extensive dev resources for complete rework of the raid.

No option is perfect. Your issue with the suggestion is a reality now. The suggestion doesnt add it, in fact it reduces the possibility by making access to the story easier for players disinclined to pay someone else to play for them if they can do it themselves.

There are two problems:

1. You will have the efficiency problem. The most efficient way for the players to play is to perform secret handshakes; paying a top tier guild for a run for instance is one such handshake. Anet in their wisdom realized they can’t combat this and simply turn a blind eye to it.

2. The rewards have to scale up from their current status. What this means is that what rewards you get now are what would become “low” in the new system. You couldn’t give lower rewards. The reason why is because people have become accustomed to this tier, even if the only one, which could be seen in the catastrophe that was the Dungeon changes and nerfs slowly over time before the major one that pretty much closed them up.

Combined this means that you now have a solid economic solution, take individuals who can earn the highest rewards, have them charge more than the highest reward to those who would earn the lowest reward, and everyone shoots for the middle reward. The elites get a break because they aren’t working so hard and the unskilled get a buffer.

And it is because it is a reality that this occurs already that the system would be detrimental. Neither of us are ignorant of it already happening so what the question becomes is whether we are willing to allow individuals to simply overprofit on purpose. That’s the hardest part of “game balance”; making sure the bad kids and the good kids get somewhat equal rewards.

#1: Most people don’t bother with, and dont want to bother with, the most efficient way of playing.

I disagree with # 2. There is no reason why you couldn’t have the current rewards as the top tier. The OP is asking for the ability to play the story, perhaps with some minimal rewards, at an easier level of difficulty for those not interested in the level of challenge currently present in the Raid.

The, “good kids and the bad kids,” are not supposed to get equal rewards. This is built into game design, here and pretty much everywhere else. It is intended that those willing to put the most into the game, in terms of preparation, practice, thought, etc and those who are just naturally more gifted at certain specific types of play will be rewarded better than those less interested in putting in the effort or just less gifted.

People sell raid spots now. The number paying for this service will not go up if there is an easier way for those who want to experience the story to do so without having to face the full difficulty. There are people out there who just won’t pay others to play a game for them. For what its worth, I happen to be one of those people. If there is content I cannot beat, I keep trying until either I can, or until I decide that its not worth my time and move on to different content. I paid real money to be able to play this game, not to pay fake money for someone else to play it for me. Now there might very well be, are actually, people out there willing to pay for a raid run because the idea of missing story is completely abhorrent to them Give them the option to experience the story without paying for a run and the pool of raid run buyers has decreased.

Harper.4173:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

As opposed to people paying for a spot in a top end team’s raid group now?

At least the suggestion gives the “honest” lower end players the possibility of experiencing the story (the point of this thread) without gutting the raid for higher end players, or requiring extensive dev resources for complete rework of the raid.

No option is perfect. Your issue with the suggestion is a reality now. The suggestion doesnt add it, in fact it reduces the possibility by making access to the story easier for players disinclined to pay someone else to play for them if they can do it themselves.

How can they not experience the raid story in a cleared instance?

How demanding would it be for the devs to give EVERYONE the chance to open a fully cleared instance at any time?

There are solutions already in the game – and there are OTHER easier solutions out there – read what I wrote.

Part of the story in the action adventure genre is the act of defeating the foe. An instance without foes is lacking part of the story.

So, if the suggestion of scaling rewards to completion time were implemented, and casual non-raider types took four hours to complete the instance, earning zero current raid exclusive rewards, but perhaps some coin, or other dungeon type rewards, what would the harm be?

And to repeat, the idea is that only people able to defeat the raid in the current live time frames would have access to raid exclusive rewards. Those making lesser times would NOT get raid exclusive skins, etc.

Ashen.2907:

Part of the story in the action adventure genre is the act of defeating the foe. An instance without foes is lacking part of the story.

So, if the suggestion of scaling rewards to completion time were implemented, and casual non-raider types took four hours to complete the instance, earning zero current raid exclusive rewards, but perhaps some coin, or other dungeon type rewards, what would the harm be?

And to repeat, the idea is that only people able to defeat the raid in the current live time frames would have access to raid exclusive rewards. Those making lesser times would NOT get raid exclusive skins, etc.

You do know if they did this so that people could Nomad their way through the bosses they would start crying just after they kill VG. Gorse would have circles everywhere, Sab’s flamethrower would roast them, Sloth would have people dropping poison in terrible spots, Matthias would have tons of worthy sacrifices, McLoed is already this way, KC would watch them die of boredom as it takes them 5 hours to kill him, and Xera would watch them all have heart attacks. Very rarely do fights ever end because of the timer and almost always end because people suck at the mechanics. You might think that’s because people are in full DPS gear with no defense, but I counter that with the fact people that raid survive better in their full DPS using their skills than the terribles that use defensive gear and almost all of these mechanics do 1-shots and not damage that can be healed.

This would solve nothing and just keep the crying going.

I’m not in favor of the idea of a story mode for the raids. This position is based on what I believe to be a waste of resources by ANet on developing the story mode dungeons. Harder, instanced content in MMO’s is largely about fostering the repetitive play necessary to the MMO business model. This means the incentive to redo the content needs to come in the form of rewards.

Story mode instances, by and large, have much less staying power than reward instances. Never mind players who don’t care about story at all, there are few players who will like a story enough to replay a story instance a lot. I believe the best a developer can hope for is repetition on alts and helping friends/guildees. No doubt, there are exceptions to this, but I think that is not a huge demographic.

GreyWolf.8670:

I didn’t ask for raids and wasn’t here to participate in the CDI. I’m just not going to buy the next expansion if there is content that I can’t at least queue for to access. I don’t pay for others’ entertainment, I pay for mine.

We have one open raid (Dragon’s Stand, yes it’s a raid) and the closed one. Why?

Well said.

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at. Raids are a thing, people who play casually can and probably do, do them. I don’t, I also don’t sPvP so no leg back (not missing it). Get over it please.

This. Compromises are for weak people. All or nothing is the way to go. Raids are too easy already compared to other games, people who cannot beat them are most likely just too lazy.
Also most raiders do not care about the story at all, it is just a nice detail for the the raid encounters to make “sense”. Story was never the strong point about GW2 anyway, there are dozens of games with far superior story, both in quality and quantity of story.

Harper.4173:

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

I think he’s saying – and I’m certainly saying – that people should just stop trying to weasel their way into raid rewards without actually putting in the time and effort required to get them.

I don’t know why people keep thinking that. This isn’t about the rewards it’s about access to story content and exploring maps. Access to content is rewards in themselves. If I ripped several chapters out of a novel and handed you what was left of the book how would you feel?

I know there are parties and work arounds to get to the content but the fundamental thing is that raids are designed to block single players from content. Not all players want to join up with others in tight nit parties. Many of us are lone wolfs for the most part that enjoy roaming maps and only working with other players on events. Every single time I’ve tried to join a party in a dungeon it makes me regret doing so. I expect raids are worse because of the demand that other players have the best armor and weapons.

One time I went into a dungeon with one party only to have them jump to another part of the dungeon then start freaking out because I didn’t know they were doing so. They started frantically drawing on the radar view and griping in chat. I get enough stress at work. I don’t need that in the environment I use to relax in. I left the dungeon with them PMing me for leaving. I don’t want to play with high strung players period. You rarely ever get that behavor in open world PvE.

Yargesh.4965:

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

How the heck do you read that into what I wrote?

You said that a compromise is not possible. If it’s not possible, then someone will have to lose (because until that happens, the problem will persist). If someone will have to lose, i sure as kitten don’t want that someone to be me.

AliamRationem.5172:

I’m not making an argument for or against these suggestions. I simply take issue with the implication (stated in plain words in the post I replied to) that players who enjoy raiding need to compromise with those who don’t.

They don’t need to compromise, but if they don’t want to, then the other side will have no reason to try to compromise either. And, since the problem will persist, so will the conflict, until eventually someone will lose. It might be the Raiders.

AliamRationem.5172:

Perhaps what you ask for here is perfectly reasonable, but threatening raiders with “If you don’t support our position we’ll do whatever we can to see the content you enjoy removed from the game” is not. That’s all I was saying.

There’s a big difference between not supporting opponent’s position and saying that no compromise is possible. That second option is directly confrontational. And it was brought up by a Raid supporter.

Besides, i wasn’t threatening anyone. I was merely pointing out the consequence of that stance.

Ashen.2907:

Compromise does not, and cannot, exist if there is only one party, which already has access to what it claims to want.

If that was true, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. In truth however this access is only theoretically open to everyone. It’s like the american dream where everyone can end up a millionaire… and yet the country somehow ends with one of the lowest social mobility ratings.

So yes, theoretically raids are open to anyone, but in practice they are closed to all but a very small group of players. And that is a stated, design goal for them.

But to be back on topic:

My stance would be that the best solution would be to introduce an easy mode (at around dungeon level difficulty) with a reduced droprate/acquisition speed of rewards (but only that. No hard mode exclusives). To make sure easy mode won’t be the better way of obtaining those, make lockout on each individually, and make easy mode rewards be awarded on top of the normal ones after hard mode completion (the same way that 4-tiered daily rewards work in fractals now).

I am glad this conversation is taking place in the general forums rather than the raiding subforum. That allows for greater input from both sides.

To add a few of my points (opinion, btw) from other threads related to this topic -

• Yes, the story in raids is minimal but it is still there and, as the introduction to the next story line (presumably), constitutes an important story step that players interested in story should be able to participate in.

• Simply entering a cleared instance, reading a few notes or watching a video isn’t the same as EXPERIENCING the story as the hero, which is sort of the point of story in GW2 in the first place.

• Almost no one is saying the reward from a lesser difficulty version of the raid should be on the same level as that received from the harder core version.

• The PVE player community is definitely torn over this issue – so many of us believe a compromise should be made.

• It isn’t – and has never been -about taking anything away from anyone. It is just passionate players (who may not have the skill or time to invest in hardcore raids) wanting to be a part of the ENTIRE story.

Again, really glad this is in the general subforum. If a dev sees this, please keep it here rather than moving it like the last thread on this topic. Both sides are more adequately represented here.

Blaeys.3102:

I am glad this conversation is taking place in the general forums rather than the raiding subforum. That allows for greater input from both sides.

….

Again, really glad this is in the general subforum. If a dev sees this, please keep it here rather than moving it like the last thread on this topic. Both sides are more adequately represented here.

I agree on this point but at some point they will bury it off into the raid forum then lock the thread. To me it feels like for some reason ANet wants to bury this topic. That has been their only response to this subject and those of us that feel left out of the content.

Well like I’ve previously commented on threads like these if you want an easy mode raid with no legendary armor rewards, no magnetite shards, no ascended gear rewards then sure ok.

It’d be a lot of dev time spent just to add another mode with little gain to myself but I see the benefit in it for people to experience the story and lore.

Most people however seem to want the raid rewards without actually doing raids which just annoys me because they feel entitled to the loot without putting in the effort.

It is also telling that despite how ‘exclusive’ raids are, open world farming such as AB/SW is still far more profitable than raids so it’s not like raiders are rolling in $$$$ except those very few who sell raids.

Astralporing.1957:

Ashen.2907:

Compromise does not, and cannot, exist if there is only one party, which already has access to what it claims to want.

If that was true, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Sure we would. People frequently ask for things they could get for themselves if only the made the effort or actually examined the facts.

The OP wants access for casual players to the story inside of the current raid. There are currently multiple means for casual players to manage this.

vifesprit.3514:

Option 3: a Legendary Dungeon

Adding a dungeon with Story mode (see option 1) and 3 paths that use Raid wings, and TOKENS to do a lengendary armor (but not the same skin as Raid)

Adding a PvP track for this dungeon so PvP players can do a legendary armor too.

I’d like this…

I’ve given another go at trying to get into raids this week, so far spent 4 or more hours roughly being kicked from groups because I haven’t done a raid yet… Best expansion ever.

Ashen.2907:

#1: Most people don’t bother with, and dont want to bother with, the most efficient way of playing.

All players take the most efficient routes to their ends. You can see this in Dailies where there are three categories but few players refuse not mix them because some tasks are just easier than others even if they take place in modes they normally never would visit.

Most people don’t want everything which is what creates the illusion that they aren’t interested in efficient methods but when a player wants something very, very rarely do they go the long and hard, I.E. crafting guides to get 500 quickest and cheapest, build guides instead of personal discovery and guilds that do specific missions to cut down wait time and bolster effectiveness in personal endeavors.

I disagree with # 2. There is no reason why you couldn’t have the current rewards as the top tier. The OP is asking for the ability to play the story, perhaps with some minimal rewards, at an easier level of difficulty for those not interested in the level of challenge currently present in the Raid.

Well, for one, if the current standard is the “best” performance then it’s just expected performance so that’s not a bonus or a boon to anyone which means that you’ve effectively nerfed the content by stating that you can get half rewards for less than a tenth of the effort. There’s no incentive to do better for the people who are terrible because they are adequately rewarded as far as they are concerned and there is no incentive for the players who are trying to continue to try because you now have slobs getting all the fun stuff without really worrying about the content and paying all that much attention.

This drags the general skill level down. So instead you have to incentivize with better rewards, not worse.

The, “good kids and the bad kids,” are not supposed to get equal rewards. This is built into game design, here and pretty much everywhere else. It is intended that those willing to put the most into the game, in terms of preparation, practice, thought, etc and those who are just naturally more gifted at certain specific types of play will be rewarded better than those less interested in putting in the effort or just less gifted.

“Good” does not refer to skill level, it refers to honesty, because being “Good” and being “Skilled” are very different things. There are some very shady, but very skilled, players. In context I am referring to the population of players who play with “integrity”? The ones who won’t buy runs, won’t cheese out halfway through a goal and find a circumvention, the ones who will use Fulgarite to actually craft things, etc. Those guys.

But on that front the reality is you get no more or less for being better or worse in this game. As a matter of fact how we measure more or less is really skewed anyway; if you want to talk PvP for instance just showing up and pressing 1 will net you points in matches. Won’t get you to diamond but for the most part most players don’t care. They aren’t losing any sleep over it.

GW2 is designed to keep the elite, if they can be called that, in check. They don’t really do any better or worse in the long-run. I know this because I’ve played with people more and less skilled than I and heck at the end of TT they got what I wanted and vice versa whether I pulled weight well or not.

People sell raid spots now. The number paying for this service will not go up if there is an easier way for those who want to experience the story to do so without having to face the full difficulty.

It’s not that population that is actually concerning. When you get lax with one segment if not done in a perfect fashion everyone will capitalize. It’s just how it goes. It makes sense to capitalize on lax laws. If there were a duplication bug and Anet said, “Oh, well, whatever you can duplicate that thing, but ONLY that thing.” someone would find a use for it rather quickly and monetize it.

There are people out there who just won’t pay others to play a game for them. For what its worth, I happen to be one of those people. If there is content I cannot beat, I keep trying until either I can, or until I decide that its not worth my time and move on to different content. I paid real money to be able to play this game, not to pay fake money for someone else to play it for me. Now there might very well be, are actually, people out there willing to pay for a raid run because the idea of missing story is completely abhorrent to them Give them the option to experience the story without paying for a run and the pool of raid run buyers has decreased.

I’m still for “Bouncy Castle Mode” and “Real Mode” where Bouncy Castle just gives no loot or definitely has different loot tables and the odds are crap and you get no Legendary Armor mats or something. I can understand people want a “Cinematic Mode” but you can’t combine that with a live run. Ever. If it’s cinematic everything should take two hits and fall over so it’s run in 5m and see exactly what you came to see, story, and nothing else. Should be soloable even.

Tekoneiric.6817:

Blaeys.3102:

I am glad this conversation is taking place in the general forums rather than the raiding subforum. That allows for greater input from both sides.

….

Again, really glad this is in the general subforum. If a dev sees this, please keep it here rather than moving it like the last thread on this topic. Both sides are more adequately represented here.

I agree on this point but at some point they will bury it off into the raid forum then lock the thread. To me it feels like for some reason ANet wants to bury this topic. That has been their only response to this subject and those of us that feel left out of the content.

I’m pretty sure the responses from the Devs regarding this very topic can be found in the Raids/Dungeons/Fractals sub-forum. Thus, ‘their only response to this subject’ has not been to ‘bury’ threads.

Oh look its this topic again.

I wonder if the people who consistently complain about raids will either put in the effort to raid or just go youtube “lore” they think they are missing out on. Because frankly all the lore is already there. Heck the wiki even has pretty much every line of dialogue that is important to the raids as well…

I see this title : “Raiders Vs Casuals”

First, this is not a fight, it’s your own decision to make it like a fight and it’s totally dumb.

Second, I’m casual AND raider too. Your whole argument is not valid. Raid are doable for casuals. I am the proof.
PvP high ranked is even worst than raiding and it’s still casual in its essence.

Raids are easy enough they don’t need any nerfs. Raids don’t need to be nerf even after a new raids since the stuff you get is only cosmetic.

The only issue I can see it’s not the difficulty of raiding, but the accessibility that can be sometimes hard because of some bad mentality and toxicity.
Ignore silly requirement and create your own party/guild for raiding. You’ll see after that you’re wrong and raids are 100% fun.

The story around the raid can be seen in video or somewhere in the internet. I can say it’s not worth it anyway. The fun part is not the story it’s the mechanics and the boss. I’m 100% sure your complain is about the content you can’t do for whatever reason and story is just a false key to open a false argument.

I’m 100% sure people that complain about raids never tried said raids or don’t care about making some efforts in order to do them. It’s sad that Anet will probably do something about these people that just want something they can’t have just because of their laziness.

Yeah I know you have a family and don’t have time to do it, then if you don’t have time to do raid in GW2, I don’t think you’ll have time to do anything in this game to be honest. The only hard part in raids is learning, but after this it’s doable in 20-30 minutes for a wing, and only 10 minutes for a raid boss.
But ofc you are lazy so you don’t have time to learn something fun. People these days want their shiny doing nothing anyway.

As I said, I’m casual, I don’t play that much and I’m mostly afk when in game. I have a life like everyone else and still learning Wing 2.
I did whole wing 1 in less than three weeks with pugs, and the escort from wing 3 and some training runs with a raid guild. If you want to see raid lore or such things, it’s doable as a casual player, but you will get nothing if you are lazy.

Just my opinion, maybe it’s rude for you but I think if you do some efforts it would be worth it.

I had some experiences from others mmo like Raids in FFXIV and it wasn’t fun (savage mode), but in GW2 it’s fun, because the difficulty is fine and you don’t need months in order to down a boss.

There are really a lot of players doing raids so I don’t know why people think raids are just for a few people. Ofc it’s probably a minority but I think it’s still a lot as a whole.

lokh.2695:

Said it before, will say it again

Easy-Mode for Raids, with less difficulty and smaller rewards.
Hard-Mode for Dungeons, with higher difficulty/added mechanics and maybe Legendary trinkets as long term rewards, Hard-Mode gets you there faster of course.

Achievements for doing stuff in Hard-Mode(s), so ppl still get fancy titles/minis/skins and APs if they did it the hard way.

Everyone can do all the content at their own pace, get all the stuff yadda yadda yadda… Everyone is a happy camper.

I wouldn’t be a happy camper — I don’t want multiple modes of game types; I far prefer to have lots of different options with their own style of difficulty. I have no interest in the developers spending valuable time making and balancing two versions of lots of different instances.

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Tekoneiric.6817:

Blaeys.3102:

I am glad this conversation is taking place in the general forums rather than the raiding subforum. That allows for greater input from both sides.

….

Again, really glad this is in the general subforum. If a dev sees this, please keep it here rather than moving it like the last thread on this topic. Both sides are more adequately represented here.

I agree on this point but at some point they will bury it off into the raid forum then lock the thread. To me it feels like for some reason ANet wants to bury this topic. That has been their only response to this subject and those of us that feel left out of the content.

And they buried it off into the subforum. I’d be willing to bet they’ll lock this thread by the next business day.

I was gonna say you can be a casual and a raider at the same time but I got beaten to the punch.

Do you want the raids? Then meet the challenge. A raid with no challenge is not a raid. It doesn’t create the social environment that raids are supposed to create.
Do you want the gear (stats)? You already have ways to get Ascended stat gear.
Do you want the gear (stat swapping)? Stat swapping is a luxury.
Do you want the gear (appearance)? Do the content. Skins have prestige; earn that prestige.

The raids are, by no stretch of the imagination, particularly hard. Progression races do not last long and everyone knows the raids already. Theorycrafting is broadly complete and rather simple. Most every class has a place in the raids. There are training guilds all over the place. The only person preventing you from raiding is you.

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

As opposed to people paying for a spot in a top end team’s raid group now?

At least the suggestion gives the “honest” lower end players the possibility of experiencing the story (the point of this thread) without gutting the raid for higher end players, or requiring extensive dev resources for complete rework of the raid.

No option is perfect. Your issue with the suggestion is a reality now. The suggestion doesnt add it, in fact it reduces the possibility by making access to the story easier for players disinclined to pay someone else to play for them if they can do it themselves.

How can they not experience the raid story in a cleared instance?

How demanding would it be for the devs to give EVERYONE the chance to open a fully cleared instance at any time?

There are solutions already in the game – and there are OTHER easier solutions out there – read what I wrote.

Part of the story in the action adventure genre is the act of defeating the foe. An instance without foes is lacking part of the story.

So, if the suggestion of scaling rewards to completion time were implemented, and casual non-raider types took four hours to complete the instance, earning zero current raid exclusive rewards, but perhaps some coin, or other dungeon type rewards, what would the harm be?

And to repeat, the idea is that only people able to defeat the raid in the current live time frames would have access to raid exclusive rewards. Those making lesser times would NOT get raid exclusive skins, etc.

I still don’t see how beating any of the bosses provides story or lore. I’ve killed all of them – there’s nothing there IMO.

Tekoneiric.6817:

Harper.4173:

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

I think he’s saying – and I’m certainly saying – that people should just stop trying to weasel their way into raid rewards without actually putting in the time and effort required to get them.

I don’t know why people keep thinking that. This isn’t about the rewards it’s about access to story content and exploring maps. Access to content is rewards in themselves. If I ripped several chapters out of a novel and handed you what was left of the book how would you feel?

I know there are parties and work arounds to get to the content but the fundamental thing is that raids are designed to block single players from content. Not all players want to join up with others in tight nit parties. Many of us are lone wolfs for the most part that enjoy roaming maps and only working with other players on events. Every single time I’ve tried to join a party in a dungeon it makes me regret doing so. I expect raids are worse because of the demand that other players have the best armor and weapons.

One time I went into a dungeon with one party only to have them jump to another part of the dungeon then start freaking out because I didn’t know they were doing so. They started frantically drawing on the radar view and griping in chat. I get enough stress at work. I don’t need that in the environment I use to relax in. I left the dungeon with them PMing me for leaving. I don’t want to play with high strung players period. You rarely ever get that behavor in open world PvE.

The reason you don’t get that in open world PvE is because open world PvE is failproof – so nobody cares what you do or how you do it.

That aside – why don’t open and cleared raid instances work for you?

Blaeys.3102:

I am glad this conversation is taking place in the general forums rather than the raiding subforum. That allows for greater input from both sides.

To add a few of my points (opinion, btw) from other threads related to this topic -

• Yes, the story in raids is minimal but it is still there and, as the introduction to the next story line (presumably), constitutes an important story step that players interested in story should be able to participate in.

• Simply entering a cleared instance, reading a few notes or watching a video isn’t the same as EXPERIENCING the story as the hero, which is sort of the point of story in GW2 in the first place.

• Almost no one is saying the reward from a lesser difficulty version of the raid should be on the same level as that received from the harder core version.

• The PVE player community is definitely torn over this issue – so many of us believe a compromise should be made.

• It isn’t – and has never been -about taking anything away from anyone. It is just passionate players (who may not have the skill or time to invest in hardcore raids) wanting to be a part of the ENTIRE story.

Again, really glad this is in the general subforum. If a dev sees this, please keep it here rather than moving it like the last thread on this topic. Both sides are more adequately represented here.

The thing is that entering a cleared instance is enough in my opinion for people who haven’t worked towards being able to raid and kill bosses.
If you want to feel like “The hero” that killed the bosses – you might as well improve, start raiding and actually kill them the normal way.

I don’t think it’s worth it for Anet to make an “EzPz” mode for Raids because honestly I doubt there’d be enough people to run that mode – considering it should give no rewards.

Last time this discussion was up under a different form – when we asked for a hardcore mode for dungeons – Anet said pretty much No – and all casuals banded together and said “let’s not give an inch to those filthy elitist hardcore players”.

So you see the problem.

Also – when you say “compromise” – what do you mean? What do you give for what you gain?

Raiders have to give up and accept that there’s an “EZ mode raid now” but what do casuals give up to get this? I think the word compromise is being used as click-bait here.

Sarrs.4831:

I was gonna say you can be a casual and a raider at the same time but I got beaten to the punch.

Do you want the raids? Then meet the challenge. A raid with no challenge is not a raid.

Then call it by a different name. That name is important only to raiders anyway.

Sarrs.4831:

It doesn’t create the social environment that raids are supposed to create.

Good. For the most part, those are damaging to the game.

Sarrs.4831:

Do you want the gear (stats)? You already have ways to get Ascended stat gear.

Not all of it, not at this moment anyway. And the LS that’s supposedly going to partially solve that problem is being pushed further and further away.

Sarrs.4831:

Do you want the gear (stat swapping)? Stat swapping is a luxury.

Skin may be a luxury, but stat-changing is an utility. One more useful for non-raiders, at that.

Sarrs.4831:

Do you want the gear (appearance)? Do the content. Skins have prestige; earn that prestige.

I kind of disagree with you on that part (skins are skins, they may be vanity gear, but the vanity does not come from “prestige” but from how good they make you look). Still, i’d not be insisting on that part… as long as the remaining ones are fulfilled.

Sarrs.4831:

The only person preventing you from raiding is you.

Yes, yes, the only person preventing me from becoming a millionaire is also me, i get it.[/sarcasm]

Getting sick of posts like this. Never in the history of gaming I’ve seen anyone being so entitled or lazy. You want the rewards? Play the frikkin game!! If you don’t have the time or skill to play an action-based MMO, go ahead and play angry birds. This game is already so easy and casual I cannot believe anyone can have trouble playing. People can solo content designed for 5 player parties and duo content designed for 10 player squads. Back in my days of gaming people had to adapt to the game and learn to play better, not act entitled and demand that the devs adapt the game to them.

Edit: I’d like to also add that being able to experience the story is a reward in itself, NOT something you’re entitled to by purchasing the game. In order to experience the whole story, you should have to play through the whole game. If you’re unable (or even unwilling) to, then you don’t get to experience the story. Period.

I am a bit surprised they haven’t done something like Option 1 by now. Those who are truly in it for the story alone should be more than happy with that option.

Can’t see Option 2 ever happening. They did not touch dungeon difficulty after so long, after they decided to kill them off even (before the new reward system). They just left it as old content people can rerun if they feel like it and new players can still experience the way it was meant to be.
Let us hope they treat raids with the same respect. Leave content they worked on for so long and so hard the way it is.

Honestly, it is all about the rewards in the end. People do not want to or simply can’t put in the effort to complete raids. The only compromise I see is making the rewards avaible somewhere else.
Allow people to grind their way towards any of the rewards by doing the usual Open World crap. This should require a lot of time investment, though.

Harper.4173:

The reason you don’t get that in open world PvE is because open world PvE is failproof – so nobody cares what you do or how you do it.

That aside – why don’t open and cleared raid instances work for you?

Rather than getting someone’s incomplete sloppy seconds it would be nice to get the story also. There is a reason I and many others don’t like to join in parties with others. It’s not about not wanting to improve or to get that reward that high strung raiders need to feel special it’s about wanting to access story content and maps without having to deal with party dynamics.

Every single time I go into environments dungeons with a party it’s the same. I end up regretting it because the party leader throws a fit when I zig when they wanted me to zag. There is a video floating around out there showing a kid freaking out at a PC, yelling and banging at his keyboard. I imagine the high strung gamers in dungeons and raids acting the same way when another player doesn’t zig when they wanted them to zag.

I don’t have the ascended or legendary equipment, it’s not that big deal to me. I may get it one day; I may not, it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t need that legendary back piece to feel good about myself. I go in GW2 to relax, get rid of work stress and generally have a good time. In PvE if I encounter something I don’t complete/defeat I put it aside and come back at it when I feel like it. It would be nice to have access to the story in those maps so that I get those missing chapters. Raid locking story content was a horrible idea for ANet.

If they had given raiders exclusive access for a short time as raids into a new area then moved them to open world it wouldn’t be a big deal. IMHO beta maps should be raided first then moved to open world maps so raider can move onto the next beta maps. 6 months exclusive access for raid groups would be fine. They could reward the raider with special stuff and titles. In between beta maps they could give raiders staged non-story training maps.

Oh great, this discussion again. I really hope anet delivers ls3 soon so that people have something to do. Sadly ls has never had much replay value and then the entitled whiners want to nerf raids down to that hole as well ‘cos you have nothing to do. It’d be content you do once and then never bother with anymore.

A practical example why easy mode with low rewards would only lead to more problems:

Weekly cap for magnetite is 150. Assume that for easy mode the cap would be e.g. 15.
Matthias staff has cost of 600. Grinding 40 weeks for one skin would really upset people.

I wouldn’t even start with the legendary insights that take several months for raiders to get 150 for the armor set. Easy mode would be years.

I already look forward to easy mode raids, with the old dungeon/fractal/queensdale zerg mentality, some of the most toxic behavior comes from the average community and try hards. In fact, what about the people that cannot clear easy mode raids and get excluded? Or the ones that can clear it but get kicked for not running metaish builds like in the dungeon days?

As far as story mode raids, its not profitable for arenanet just take a look at story dungeons. There is no real value in them.

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

I was gonna say you can be a casual and a raider at the same time but I got beaten to the punch.

Do you want the raids? Then meet the challenge. A raid with no challenge is not a raid.

Then call it by a different name. That name is important only to raiders anyway.

Sure, calling it ‘Should never exist’.

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

It doesn’t create the social environment that raids are supposed to create.

Good. For the most part, those are damaging to the game.

More and more I am starting to question if there’s a new kind of toxicity in a MMO that is the complete opposite of an elitist, that demands as if everything should be on a platter all the rewards for all the content out there, removing what little drive there is to play the game for a long time. I suppose when you attract everyone, you manage to reel in the worst.

Raids have been nothing but a boon, I could go into a Pug VG today right now, ask some strangers about how much fun Raids have been for them, and they might for the most part say something along the lines of ‘Raids are the most fun I have had in GW2 in years’ or ‘Raids saved my guild, Guild Missions weren’t enough to play together but every week we go in and get fat loot together!’

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

Do you want the gear (stats)? You already have ways to get Ascended stat gear.

Not all of it, not at this moment anyway. And the LS that’s supposedly going to partially solve that problem is being pushed further and further away.

Then complain about the Living Story timetable, stop complaining about Raids.

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

Do you want the gear (stat swapping)? Stat swapping is a luxury.

Skin may be a luxury, but stat-changing is an utility. One more useful for non-raiders, at that.

I really want to know this, where do you think you as a non-raider would use this? Even in raids, the utility of this stat-swap is almost pointless thanks to runes, going through the dozens of raid meta builds I can only think of about a third of the professions overall that could make use of this utility, maybe.

That’s in an environment where builds and stats can literally matter for encounters (Wing 1 and Wing 3 toughness tanking), in Open-World where does Stat-Swapping serve you? Let me know about these players who are flipping their ascended equipment around just before they attack the next Verdant Brink Meta Boss.

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

Do you want the gear (appearance)? Do the content. Skins have prestige; earn that prestige.

I kind of disagree with you on that part (skins are skins, they may be vanity gear, but the vanity does not come from “prestige” but from how good they make you look). Still, i’d not be insisting on that part… as long as the remaining ones are fulfilled.

And this folks is an angle you will hear as well, that skins should never be about prestige but about how good you look with it. That skins have no value otherwise. When the entire premise of why Guild Wars 2 is about Horizontial Progression rather than Vertical Progression where stats go up and thus you earn exclusive skins that do the biggest numbers from you doing bigger numbers, the only thing of value is the skins you earn. Key there is Earn, you have to earn things in GW2, what a novel concept!

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

The only person preventing you from raiding is you.

Yes, yes, the only person preventing me from becoming a millionaire is also me, i get it.[/sarcasm]

We get it, you hate raids, you don’t see skins as anything more than cosmetic, that nothing in this game needs to be weighed against how it is earned. Cool, we can both get what we want as we know down the road Arenanet is likely going to release a lot more non-raid content before the next raid. I hope you get plenty of the content you enjoy, and Raiders will be waiting in anticipation for the follow-up to Forsaken Thicket.

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

I would be fine with Option 1 as part of a solution, but they still need to have access to the existing raid rewards through some reasonable non-raid means. Option 2 would be better than nothing, but frankly I don’t see why most players should have to wait what would likely be a year or more to access the content, as well as incoming players never being able to experience the original version.

My position remains that there should be at least two concurrent difficulty levels to the content, one at or above the current one, one significantly below the current one and balanced to be roughly equivalent in difficulty and logistical management as existing dungeon content, with the easier version providing a lower quantity of reward, but still retaining a path to the Envoy armor to players who are not suited for the existing raids.

GreyWolf.8670:

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

They came as part of the package. Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price, much like how you get a new TV and they give you extra video cables you don’t need, but might as well have. You can’t ask to get those cables to get taken out of the package. Although you could personally toss them out when you get home, but other customers who get that same TV might want or need them.

Sykper.6583:

GreyWolf.8670:

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

They came as part of the package. Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price, much like how you get a new TV and they give you extra video cables you don’t need, but might as well have. You can’t ask to get those cables to get taken out of the package. Although you could personally toss them out when you get home, but other customers who get that same TV might want or need them.

“Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price…”

This is exactly my point. Everyone paid for the raid but not everyone has access to it.

Walk in by yourself and get put in a map instance with others. Walk in as a premade and get your “elite” mode experience with just your group. Problem solved and everyone gets what they paid for.

GreyWolf.8670:

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

Last thing I want to see is a game that focuses on DLC.
Since the same thing can be asked about WvW, Open World maps, dungeons, fractals, sPvP, certain classes or anything else people do not wish to play personally.

A practical example why easy mode with low rewards would only lead to more problems:

Weekly cap for magnetite is 150. Assume that for easy mode the cap would be e.g. 15.
Matthias staff has cost of 600. Grinding 40 weeks for one skin would really upset people.

I wouldn’t even start with the legendary insights that take several months for raiders to get 150 for the armor set. Easy mode would be years.

10% would likely be too low. 30% would be more reasonable, that would put it at 50 per week, or 12 weeks for the staff skin, which is a bit high, but not insane. Also keep in mind that easy mode would not likely have a lower cap, since the cap is a resource management thing and you can’t cap easy mode’s shards at a lower level than hard mode. Instead it is more likely that it would just be a reduced amount per run (and zero charges for failures), meaning that you would be effectively capped by only being able to beat each boss once per week, and receive only what they offer.

Another alternative would be to allow multiple repeats of easy mode per week. Not infinite, but perhaps 2-3 runs per week, so that while the most a player could get for completing one run would be 20 shards, they could complete it three times in the week for 60 total, or something like that. More effort, more reward.

The goal would be to make it so that the “start to finish” times for easy mode would be slower than the hard mode, but not by soul crushing amounts, less than six months behind, at least, but potentially requiring more hours spent per week to keep up to that pace.

GreyWolf.8670:

Sykper.6583:

GreyWolf.8670:

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

They came as part of the package. Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price, much like how you get a new TV and they give you extra video cables you don’t need, but might as well have. You can’t ask to get those cables to get taken out of the package. Although you could personally toss them out when you get home, but other customers who get that same TV might want or need them.

“Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price…”

This is exactly my point. Everyone paid for the raid but not everyone has access to it.

Walk in by yourself and get put in a map instance with others. Walk in as a premade and get your “elite” mode experience with just your group. Problem solved and everyone gets what they paid for.

Everyone has access to the raid. It’s your choice not to form a group, not to socialize, not to attempt to learn it and to expect to be carried through the content.

The choice not do do something is not the same as the content not being available.

TexZero.7910:

GreyWolf.8670:

Sykper.6583:

GreyWolf.8670:

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

They came as part of the package. Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price, much like how you get a new TV and they give you extra video cables you don’t need, but might as well have. You can’t ask to get those cables to get taken out of the package. Although you could personally toss them out when you get home, but other customers who get that same TV might want or need them.

“Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price…”

This is exactly my point. Everyone paid for the raid but not everyone has access to it.

Walk in by yourself and get put in a map instance with others. Walk in as a premade and get your “elite” mode experience with just your group. Problem solved and everyone gets what they paid for.

Everyone has access to the raid. It’s your choice not to form a group, not to socialize, not to attempt to learn it and to expect to be carried through the content.

The choice not do do something is not the same as the content not being available.

Either you didn’t read my post or you just want to make sure you have something others don’t. I’m not sure which but I’m done.

GreyWolf.8670:

Sykper.6583:

GreyWolf.8670:

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

They came as part of the package. Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price, much like how you get a new TV and they give you extra video cables you don’t need, but might as well have. You can’t ask to get those cables to get taken out of the package. Although you could personally toss them out when you get home, but other customers who get that same TV might want or need them.

“Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price…”

This is exactly my point. Everyone paid for the raid and everyone has access to it.

Fixed that mistake there, you almost implied there was some literal barrier for entry. Anyone can create a raid and go in. Anyone can go into a cleared instance and map out everything, this isn’t a difficult concept.

Fixed that mistake there, you almost implied there was some literal barrier for entry. Anyone can create a raid and go in. Anyone can go into a cleared instance and map out everything, this isn’t a difficult concept.

There are physical barriers, and there are practical barriers. A practical barrier is STILL a barrier.

Sykper.6583:

GreyWolf.8670:

Sykper.6583:

GreyWolf.8670:

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

They came as part of the package. Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price, much like how you get a new TV and they give you extra video cables you don’t need, but might as well have. You can’t ask to get those cables to get taken out of the package. Although you could personally toss them out when you get home, but other customers who get that same TV might want or need them.

“Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price…”

This is exactly my point. Everyone paid for the raid and everyone has access to it.

Fixed that mistake there, you almost implied there was some literal barrier for entry. Anyone can create a raid and go in. Anyone can go into a cleared instance and map out everything, this isn’t a difficult concept.

An empty instance is not playable content. I assume you’d be ok with them clearing out the entire raid zone and you’d be happy just wandering around in an empty room, too?