Guild Wars 2

You’re probably new to MMO, but I have seen this same thread a thousand times.

Game A releases an expansion. A few people claim that they will never buy the expansion because of reasons that vary from stupid to ridiculous. There are ALWAYS two outcomes: they break down and buy the expansion, or they quit the game. The outcome that DOESN’T happen EVER is people refusing to buy the expansion but keep playing the game actively throughout its life cycle. So what’s it gonna be for you?

NikeEU.7690:

You’re probably new to MMO, but I have seen this same thread a thousand times.

Game A releases an expansion. A few people claim that they will never buy the expansion because of reasons that vary from stupid to ridiculous. There are ALWAYS two outcomes: they break down and buy the expansion, or they quit the game. The outcome that DOESN’T happen EVER is people refusing to buy the expansion but keep playing the game actively throughout its life cycle. So what’s it gonna be for you?

Nope I’m not new to MMOs. Guess i’ve only played ones that treat their players properly?

I don’t see what the relevance of the second part is.

The relevance is you’re either going to buy the expansion (and thus alleviating your problem faster the sooner you break down and do it) or you’re going to quit (and thus alleviating your problem the sooner you break down and do it) and regardless of which you opt to do, we will all be spared having to read more posts like this.

Ok Vespers, answer me this, how should Anet have handled this?

I think we can agree that as a business, their main goal is to make money. Their strategy for doing this is to make a game that people will pay to play. In HoT, they have added incentives in the form of more features and rewards to existing content.

If they don’t make it more appealing to buy and play the new expansion than why would anyone bother?

I want to more focus on that they’re not being denied any rewards.

They’re losing out on things that make getting the rewards and progression easier, but it’s not like “oh nothing in your chests, sorry!”

vespers.1759:

NikeEU.7690:

Who are these bizarre people who LOVE guild wars 2 enough to complain about content they don’t have access to on the forums, but DON’T LOVE it enough to save up $60 to buy an expansion they had 10 months advanced notice of? That’s 20 cents a day roughly speaking. If you can’t save that up I wonder how you pay your utility bills and ISP.

Nobody is complaining about content they don’t have access to. If they want to lock people out of the new content they are perfectly entitled to do so and I would have zero issue with it.

Don’t want to let me into the new maps? Fine. Don’t want to let me run fracts past 50? Fine. Don’t want to let me go to the guild hall? Fine.

But nerfing things that have been in the game for the sole purpose of trying to force an expansion purchase? That’s just slimy.

also idk why everyone indists on insinuating that people that didn’t buy are poor. It has nothing to do with the cost of the expansion (although it really does have about $20 worth of content), and everything to do with being against kittenty business practices.

I didn’t buy the expansion because it’s in my opinion a kittenty expansion that doesn’t deserve kitten price tag whether I can easily afford it or not.

They balanced the game for paying customers. This may seem radical to you, but people who keep the game running are more important than people who don’t pitch in at all.

They didn’t make these changes just to pick on poor little ol’ you. They made these changes because the vast majority of the playerbase will be playing on the expansion and providing the best experience possible to the loyal, paying customers is what they need to do in order to keep the company running and to be able to continue to provide new, high quality content.

NikeEU.7690:

The relevance is you’re either going to buy the expansion (and thus alleviating your problem faster the sooner you break down and do it) or you’re going to quit (and thus alleviating your problem the sooner you break down and do it) and regardless of which you opt to do, we will all be spared having to read more posts like this.

Oh i understood what you said, but it isn’t relevant to the fact that Anet has adopted kittenty tactics to sell their expansion. One would think if they were confident in the expansions content they wouldn’t need to try and force people to do it.

As for quitting obviously people have to buy expansions to enjoy a game throughout its life cycle… that’s pretty obvious since all new content will be in expansions. That being said, I think i have a right to call them out when they make dumb decisions in the hope of having them reversed, and you can feel free to not comment on threads you disagree with.

I may buy the expansion on sale if they add enough to make it worth it to me or i might not given how disgusted i am with the tactics they used in HoT. Quitting the game is obviously not a solution for someone that likes the game and wants to see it be better than it is, but i’m not going to bend over and stretch open my kitten to be penetrated as you clearly have if i disagree with the direction they’re taking the game.

Vespers, when you say they are taking away rewards from base game players are you referring to gold in dungeons and Fractals?

I sort of hear what you’re saying. It’s not like they paywalled BETTER rewards in the expansion, it’s that they nerfed rewards for base game players and then paywalled rewards that base game players previously had access to in the expansion.

It’s like this:

Base game before HoT: 1 gold per run
Base game after HoT: 30 silver per run
Expansion after HoT: 70 silver per run

(All numerical values are not actual, but are just representations.)

So to even get close to what Fractals rewarded before HoT, you have to buy the expansion.

It’s a legitimate complaint, no matter what some people say here.

@vespers

“I may buy the expansion on sale if they add enough to make it worth it to me or i might not given how disgusted i am with the tactics they used in HoT. Quitting the game is obviously not a solution for someone that likes the game and wants to see it be better than it is, but i’m not going to bend over and stretch open my kitten to be penetrated as you clearly have if i disagree with the direction they’re taking the game.”

If I am to understand, you don’t want to quit the game because you apparently like it so much. Enough that you won’t quit it. But you hate “the direction they’re taking the game”, so you won’t buy the expansion. Unless maybe they lower the price a bit, because, you know, your righteous indignation could probably be bought off for a good deal.

It’s honestly very hard to take this seriously. If you hate the game, just leave already. Even my friends who ‘hate GW2’ ended up buying the expansion on the day before release (and surprise, they now get to enjoy ‘hating GW2’ for a good long while, it’s great, really). Now, if you ACTUALLY hate GW2 or the “direction” it’s going in, just go. Seriously. You’ll be far happier. If you like the game (or really, if you like complaining about how awful the game is but still want to play it because you actually like it deep down), then just get it. There’s no way that agonizing over GW2 without its expansion – an incomplete product – will ever give you a satisfying experience.

Andred.1087:

SkiTz.4590:

There has to be goals to work towards, otherwise the population gets bored and leaves. Rewards are one of the types of goals ppl work towards…. why is that so hard for you to understand????

Riddle me this, young padawan, when you quit playing this game, who is going to give a flying kitten how many of these goals you achieved? Never mind, I’ll just tell you.. NOBODY!

You play a game to be entertained. There is no other reason. The only thing that will matter when all is said and done is whether or not you enjoyed it.

And to those of you who won’t spend a measly $50 on the expansion.. why the hell are you even still playing? I assume this is your first MMO, because you clearly have no idea how this works. Finish up your temper tantrums already and pony up, or just quit the game like you’ve probably threatened to do a hundred times already.

yeah except they sold the MMO on the premise that it was buy 2 play, and your purchase would not be purposefully devalued. (in content)

now its pretty clear, the plan is to force people to buy the latest expansion buy pushing down the last release in effectiveness, fixing issues created but placing solutions in expansions only.

But thats not really how they marketed the item. And its not consistent with most other MMOs.

most other MMOs section off new content, and they incentivize new content.
Gw2 plan is to blend in all content, and deincentivize old content till you reinvest.

The overall effect is similar, but the perspective as a player is fairly different.

Its actually closer to a treadmill than other models.
Other MMOs keep moving the furtheest you can go, gw2 actually pushes you back, and you have to walk to get where you were before.

People really can’t tell the difference between ‘not gaining play value’ and ‘losing play value’, can they?

Windsagio.1340:

People really can’t tell the difference between ‘not gaining play value’ and ‘losing play value’, can they?

Well you are going to have to elaborate on what you mean, because people used to have things they no longer have.

lower dungeon incentives
less daily chests available
unknown (but seemingly lower) drop rates for old reward levels
less guild functions

far as i can see people lost value. Unless you meant something else

vespers.1759:

NikeEU.7690:

The relevance is you’re either going to buy the expansion (and thus alleviating your problem faster the sooner you break down and do it) or you’re going to quit (and thus alleviating your problem the sooner you break down and do it) and regardless of which you opt to do, we will all be spared having to read more posts like this.

Oh i understood what you said, but it isn’t relevant to the fact that Anet has adopted kittenty tactics to sell their expansion. One would think if they were confident in the expansions content they wouldn’t need to try and force people to do it.

As for quitting obviously people have to buy expansions to enjoy a game throughout its life cycle… that’s pretty obvious since all new content will be in expansions. That being said, I think i have a right to call them out when they make dumb decisions in the hope of having them reversed, and you can feel free to not comment on threads you disagree with.

I may buy the expansion on sale if they add enough to make it worth it to me or i might not given how disgusted i am with the tactics they used in HoT. Quitting the game is obviously not a solution for someone that likes the game and wants to see it be better than it is, but i’m not going to bend over and stretch open my kitten to be penetrated as you clearly have if i disagree with the direction they’re taking the game.

Ok…you just don’t get it. They’re not trying to ‘force’ people to buy the expansion, but they’re also not going to try to pander to people who won’t support their game either. Heart of Thorns is released and as with every other MMO out there, the game will now be primarily balanced around customers who have purchased the expansion.

If ANet was trying to force players to upgrade, they’d just prevent people from logging in until they bought the expansion. THAT’s forcing a purchase.

You’re getting to play the base game completely for free on servers that are being supported by players who bought the expansion and are paying the bills. If ANet has to make a choice between making players like you happy and making the paying customers happy…guess who wins out.

Dahkeus.8243:

vespers.1759:

NikeEU.7690:

The relevance is you’re either going to buy the expansion (and thus alleviating your problem faster the sooner you break down and do it) or you’re going to quit (and thus alleviating your problem the sooner you break down and do it) and regardless of which you opt to do, we will all be spared having to read more posts like this.

Oh i understood what you said, but it isn’t relevant to the fact that Anet has adopted kittenty tactics to sell their expansion. One would think if they were confident in the expansions content they wouldn’t need to try and force people to do it.

As for quitting obviously people have to buy expansions to enjoy a game throughout its life cycle… that’s pretty obvious since all new content will be in expansions. That being said, I think i have a right to call them out when they make dumb decisions in the hope of having them reversed, and you can feel free to not comment on threads you disagree with.

I may buy the expansion on sale if they add enough to make it worth it to me or i might not given how disgusted i am with the tactics they used in HoT. Quitting the game is obviously not a solution for someone that likes the game and wants to see it be better than it is, but i’m not going to bend over and stretch open my kitten to be penetrated as you clearly have if i disagree with the direction they’re taking the game.

Ok…you just don’t get it. They’re not trying to ‘force’ people to buy the expansion, but they’re also not going to try to pander to people who won’t support their game either. Heart of Thorns is released and as with every other MMO out there, the game will now be primarily balanced around customers who have purchased the expansion.

If ANet was trying to force players to upgrade, they’d just prevent people from logging in until they bought the expansion. THAT’s forcing a purchase.

You’re getting to play the base game completely for free on servers that are being supported by players who bought the expansion and are paying the bills. If ANet has to make a choice between making players like you happy and making the paying customers happy…guess who wins out.

the recurring bills are paid via microtransactions. aka the gem shop. They arent playing for free, they bought the product. Is this lamp in my house free, because i bought it 10 years ago? was my playstation free? How about my car, its free now huh?

and the reason people went microtransaction route, is because they figured out it makes more money on average than subscriptions, for the same product.

Anet gotta get paid, the question is how do you feel about that method all things considered. For some it may be a good deal, for others not really. It depends on the person.

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

People really can’t tell the difference between ‘not gaining play value’ and ‘losing play value’, can they?

Well you are going to have to elaborate on what you mean, because people used to have things they no longer have.

lower dungeon incentives
less daily chests available
unknown (but seemingly lower) drop rates for old reward levels
less guild functions

far as i can see people lost value. Unless you meant something else

In order:
1) I presume you mean less gold drop. This isn’t a bought vs. didn’t buy thing.
2) More dailies sorted differently. You’re awarded both for ‘3 in a category’ and for ‘suggested fractal’
3) As you say yourself, you’re guessing. Non-liquid rewards are changed to the degree that it’s hard to judge. Psychology makes us assume its for the worst.
4) Oh really? Also wildly offtopic.

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

People really can’t tell the difference between ‘not gaining play value’ and ‘losing play value’, can they?

Well you are going to have to elaborate on what you mean, because people used to have things they no longer have.

lower dungeon incentives
less daily chests available
unknown (but seemingly lower) drop rates for old reward levels
less guild functions

far as i can see people lost value. Unless you meant something else

In order:
1) I presume you mean less gold drop. This isn’t a bought vs. didn’t buy thing.
2) More dailies sorted differently. You’re awarded both for ‘3 in a category’ and for ‘suggested fractal’
3) As you say yourself, you’re guessing. Non-liquid rewards are changed to the degree that it’s hard to judge. Psychology makes us assume its for the worst.
4) Oh really? Also wildly offtopic.

1)less incentives, specifically placed in other content, like fractals, which is less than you used to get
2) less dailies, there was 5 dailies available before, for every 10 levels. 4 of which could drop ascended boxes, now there is 4 dailies, 2 of which can drop ascended boxes
3) based on current data people are reporting, it isnt a large sample, but that doesnt mean its wrong yet. Based on current data there is a correlation.
Non liquid rewards are hard to put a finger on, but to go with that we have gold costs on things that formerly did not. Overall they removed value, which may be balanced by market values, but based on current data and drops, its not more money neven on the market.
4)Its on the topic of your post, which talks about not losing value. Guilds used to be able to make items they can no longer make, and the analogs of those items are HOT only now.

Lets be honest, its very clear what the strategy is here, make hot give you around 20% increase in value per time spent.
Combined with an ideaology that doesnt want to increase things (gold creep reward creep etc) that requires that people are pushed backwards in order to achieve your goal.
Its simple math.
an example
we want max value to be 100 gold per day
we want the latest expansion to be 20% better

as long as they want to cap max value, the only solution to the problem is to reduce the value of the previous release.

John smith has already said he favors stability over growth. You can argue whether its a good idea or not, but you cant really claim core values are being maintained.
4 dailies vs 5 is the simplest representation (get 5 back if you bought hot)
which illustrates the paradigm they are working with now

I think you’re working backwards from a narrative you’ve already decided on. There’s really nowhere to go with the discussion from there.

Windsagio.1340:

I think you’re working backwards from a narrative you’ve already decided on. There’s really nowhere to go with the discussion from there.

no, im basing this on experience an evidence in the game.
Only one facet is unproven, thats the data on whats in what chest,

5 daily chests for core before
4 daily chests for core now
5 daily chests available for Hot now

less earning in fractals now
More earning in fractals before

lower difficulty in fractals at scale X now

even ignoring the unknowns, the raw numbers currently objectively reflect devaluing of core content, with hot content

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

I think you’re working backwards from a narrative you’ve already decided on. There’s really nowhere to go with the discussion from there.

no, im basing this on experience an evidence in the game.
Only one facet is unproven, thats the data on whats in what chest,

5 daily chests for core before
4 daily chests for core now
5 daily chests available for Hot now

less earning in fractals now
More earning in fractals before

lower difficulty in fractals at scale X now

even ignoring the unknowns, the raw numbers currently objectively reflect devaluing of core content, with hot content

You’re right.

The bigger question is: Why still play without expansion? Go work some extra hours until you can buy it. I never understood people that played 10+ hours a week games like FFXIV or WoW without having the expansions. The game worth 10 hours+ of your week but dont worth 50$ a year and a half?

NikeEU.7690:

OP made a post that had a point I felt was totally without merit. I responded calmly and politely explaining why his point wasn’t really defensible.

You did no such thing.

I’m waiting for the point at which everyone here realizes that reducing gold drops for a dungeon isn’t the same as taking away “play value”.

Honestly I wish Anet would just take the dungeons out of the game entirely and turn their better encounters into boss fractals. I wouldn’t mind a Lupicus or Alphard fractal (because then I could solo farm it).

Meanwhile, I’ll be waiting for the moment everyone here realizes that this thread has nothing to do with the reduced gold rewards for dungeons.

What is it about then? I see the OP whining about the fractals change and it apparently being harder to access the new tiers without grinding AR? We got 50 new tiers and it’s possible to get enough AR to access most of them even without HoT, I dunno what the issue is.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

What is it about then? I see the OP whining about the fractals change and it apparently being harder to access the new tiers without grinding AR? We got 50 new tiers and it’s possible to get enough AR to access most of them even without HoT, I dunno what the issue is.

Are you posting in the thread you think you’re posting in?

What you said up there in no way reflects what the OP said.

Im not sure what other mmorpgs OP has played or know of, but every one of them have been way more restrictive than gw2. Be glad u wont be 5 to 10 lvls below with lesser gear which would prevent u from taking part in any content. I honestly dont get why some r too selfentitled, this game has given us so much for free in 3 yrs for only a one time purchase with no f2p paywalls, what is this lol.

vespers.1759:

It doesn’t take more than kindergarten logic to understand that a good expansion should leave the base game alone and instead offer new things to encourage players to buy.

Anet has apparently completely failed to understand this, as they have gone the route of kittening over players in a sad attempt to force them to buy. Instead of adding content, they have chosen to take it away. Case in point, fractal rewards are now locked behind masteries, which require the expansion. There are no new fractals to encourage us to buy, instead they are simply removing rewards from the bse game and shifting them to HoT.

Sorry old players, you can no longer get the rewards you have been getting for years now because you didn’t pay for the kittenty expansion.

I knew leading up to launch that Anet was relying on hype to sell the expansion before launch, and banking on people not looking to closely, and I have been proven right.

Another utter disaster by Anet.

Is what I see. In other words, he’s whining about less rewards for doing base game content, which he seems to have converted to “less game value” in his head.

It’s really as simple as if you don’t have leveled fractal mastery 3, your rewards are worse than before expansion (while they announced putting more rewards into fractals) but if you have the mastery they are closer to pre-hot rewards and the mastery system is only available to HoT purchases thus making it so they took away rewards from base game and put them behind a paywall now.

Kitta.3657:

It’s really as simple as if you don’t have leveled fractal mastery 3, your rewards are worse than before expansion (while they announced putting more rewards into fractals) but if you have the mastery they are closer to pre-hot rewards and the mastery system is only available to HoT purchases thus making it so they took away rewards from base game and put them behind a paywall now.

Even level 3 fractal mastery rewards seem lower than pre-HoT. Totally lame.

Maybe because you don’t have to RNG 4 fractals in a row to get one big reward at the end?

The time it takes to do 2x Swamp + the recommended fractal for 3 end chests and 2 daily chests is a bare fraction of the time it took to do 4 random fractals before. Of course it’s going to be slightly less reward per fractal.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Maybe because you don’t have to RNG 4 fractals in a row to get one big reward at the end?

The time it takes to do 2x Swamp + the recommended fractal for 3 end chests and 2 daily chests is a bare fraction of the time it took to do 4 random fractals before. Of course it’s going to be slightly less reward per fractal.

I don’t think you’ve done fractals past level 60 then. Some are easy, a lot are plain stupid HP sponges.