Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

WIth a casual group, there’s no guarantee that the next attempt will be any better. Better keep ressing. And that’s only in a bad situation, where a lot of people died. Usually there’s no more than one person dead or downed at the same time, and even that is not a constant situation.

In casual non-zerker Arah groups people were going down like ninepins. It was no surprise that there were only a few lfgs for Arah even before HoT and most of them “exp zerk” ones. The huge amount of the rest were selling lfgs, “help at tar 1g” or “need help at Lupi”. I joined several of those and at Lupi it was always a pleasure to solo him after phase shifting because people start dying with the first aoe. Sometimes I failed on the first try and when we got back to him it was the same thing: at phase 2 I was alone fighting him.
That rarely happens with people who know the Escort encounter. Maybe you run into a mine for the first time but at least if you know not to touch them you usually don’t die here any more unless you are trolling or not listening to take some stun breaks/stability with you. The hardest part for this encounter is the cave, typically this will be one-manned by a chrono and it is not nearly as hard as to fight Lupi.
In raids you have to learn it or you won’t be successful (if there aren’t speedrunners carrying you very hard), in dungeons there were always people who could carry your xxx easily and in the end you learned nothing but click-to-loot.

Astralporing.1957:

And that’s the point – raid encounters do not give you that opportunity to do things way more slowly, but with a better success chance, and they do not really give you a chance to recover after a major messup. As you said, with raids it’s “bam!, /gg and next try”. Over and over again.

So yeah, again, Arah difficulty is perfectly fine.

If you don’t make mistakes in a group with 10 men, nobody goes down neither. Btw Escort does not have a timer as well and you can take your time.
So raid difficulty is perfectly fine too for me. Maybe not for you but that’s why they are challenging content and not for everyone and never wil be. That is and ever was intended.

Arah difficulty is perfectly fine? Rly… Experienced groups nearly 1 shot Lupi. Even solos take less than a couple of min these days.

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

So, ANet has said no to hard mode in general. They’ve said no to tiered difficulty raids.

However, this topic has come up — again … So, if we’re going to entertain the topic of tiered difficulty, why not hard versions of the easier PvE content?

Vinceman.4572:

In casual non-zerker Arah groups people were going down like ninepins. It was no surprise that there were only a few lfgs for Arah even before HoT and most of them “exp zerk” ones. The huge amount of the rest were selling lfgs, “help at tar 1g” or “need help at Lupi”. I joined several of those and at Lupi it was always a pleasure to solo him after phase shifting because people start dying with the first aoe. Sometimes I failed on the first try and when we got back to him it was the same thing: at phase 2 I was alone fighting him.

Yeah, seen those too (though my general experience was a little bit better, maybe i was just more lucky in getting pugs though). But you know what? It was possible to do with those groups. Now, imagine doing escort with the same people. And now tell me that escort is easier than Lupi.

Vinceman.4572:

If you don’t make mistakes in a group with 10 men, nobody goes down neither.

If nobody makes mistakes, everything is easy. It’s the impact of the mistakes made that tells us how easy/difficult the encounter is. The impact of mistakes in raids, even on “easy” parts like escort, is just much bigger than in Arah. Any claim that escort is easier is really laughable.

Astralporing.1957:

Yeah, seen those too (though my general experience was a little bit better, maybe i was just more lucky in getting pugs though). But you know what? It was possible to do with those groups. Now, imagine doing escort with the same people. And now tell me that escort is easier than Lupi.

Doesn’t have anything to do with being “lucky”, I joined such groups on purpose to help them because otherwise many of those wouldn’t get past Lupicus. Escort on the other hand has event style. It’s easier for a 10 men group than for a 5 man going through Arah/Lupi. In a dungeon you have some kind of terrible rng, which is not present in raids.
For Escort you have to know is how it works, that’s all and it’s easy because you walk a line back and forth killing trash and avoid stepping into mines. On the other hand you can know everything about Lupi and still fail over and over because you have to dodge, rely on reflects/blocks or better players carrying you with a huge investment, either with time or skill.

Astralporing.1957:

Any claim that escort is easier is really laughable.

Seriously, if you really think so you haven’t played Escort more than once or 2-3 times. Arah takes way more effort for the individual than this raid encounter.

I used to be in the camp that thought the possibility of raids getting an easier mode was good. But after actually raiding, and getting kills (with less than a few hrs of work for a first time training session).

I don’t think raids need a story mode or easier difficulty. They are in the sweet spot atm, and lowering the difficulty would neuter the encounters given how easy they are with just a little practice.

Half of the T4 bosses are more dangerous (in pug group) than VG, Gorseval, and Escort/Trio. And that’s saying something.

Especially one you consider thai t4 NM fractal is longer than most single boss raids. If you can’t focus for 7 mins to get your first kill, then the issue, is not with the encounter.

FrostDraco.8306:

I used to be in the camp that thought the possibility of raids getting an easier mode was good. But after actually raiding, and getting kills (with less than a few hrs of work for a first time training session).

I don’t think raids need a story mode or easier difficulty. They are in the sweet spot atm, and lowering the difficulty would neuter the encounters given how easy they are with just a little practice.

Half of the T4 bosses are more dangerous (in pug group) than VG, Gorseval, and Escort/Trio. And that’s saying something.

Especially one you consider thai t4 NM fractal is longer than most single boss raids. If you can’t focus for 7 mins to get your first kill, then the issue, is not with the encounter.

Frost you can’t say those things! Makes you elitist, clearly you don’t understand how difficult the encounters are, you aren’t like the rest of players now! /s

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

Naw, I’m certain there’s a lot more to it than that.

Anet ‘flipped the script’ on instanced PvE when the expansion was launched. The ratio of easy/moderate: hard difficulty instanced content used to be a lot more balanced. imo. The average player could spend their entire play session between the pug-friendly dungeons and low to mid level fractals and come away rewarded. Those who needed a greater challenge could solo dungeons, run Arah or do high level fractals. Everyone had their niche.

Post-HoT, we’re currently in a place where a large majority (9 raid bosses vs 2 ‘new’ fractals) of the relevant instanced content is hardcore difficulty. Very little has been added for casual and moderate players. People who used to be able to hop into pugs, bang through some content with minimal hassle and go on about their business have much less to do. And it’s especially disappointing because for all their flaws, lots of us kittening love dungeons and wanted more of ’em, or at least some added incentives to continue running the old ones. I think this is a reasonable expectation.

HoT brought about a very fundamental change to the way we play the game, and this is not so much about legendary armour or entitlement as it is ‘Hey, why isn’t there more stuff for us too?’

Jahroots.6791:

Everyone had their niche.

So where was the niche for challenging instanced group content? Where exactly was that to be found?

Jahroots.6791:

HoT brought about a very fundamental change to the way we play the game

Yes, I don’t like Tarir Multiloot neither but at least they increased the rewards on dungeons and with elite specs it’s easier than ever to farm gold out of them. Of course, the majority is open world farming but hey you cannot force people into things that aren’t as much profitable than others.
In the end let’s face the truth, if Anet decrease the Tarir loot or remove Multiloot completely nobody will play the HoT maps after 100% map completion + getting all mastery points. They have absolutely 0 replay value except you are a collection grind lemming.

Jahroots.6791:

lots of us kittening love dungeons and wanted more of ’em

Where have you been while people, guilds and the speed run community (in this forum and elsewhere) has asked for over years to get appropriate content.
Maybe you should start organizing yourselves and get relevant player numbers together.

Re:cranos
Solo and low-man groups. Arah. Level 50 fractals. Not raid level difficulty, but definitely a challenge.

Even the true elite, who felt like everything was too easy, had options available to make the content engaging and interesting. People ran solo or with a friend. Maybe in white gear or blues. Sometimes naked. Less than ideal but… options none the less.

The difference is that when content is too hard for you to beat, you’re out of options. There’s no p2w type boosts that will allow you to coast through. You literally cannot play it.

This is why I feel like we lack balance now.

Re:Vinceman
That’s why I emphasized the relevance of instanced content. There’s loads of things to do in this game, but only a small number offer any real incentives to replay them. I think they made a huge mistake not adding anything of significance to either dungeon vendors, or as drops in specific paths.

I don’t know about organizing being worthwhile. The population is in serious decline, and it has been clear for quite sometime now that the devs can barely afford to do just enough to keep us around. Critical features that people have been requesting for literally years, and would benefit the entire population (e.g. build saving) are yet to be implemented. Asking for niche content seems futile.

At this point I pop in game for an hour or two each week, and am satisfied to read and participate in the occasional discussion.

Jahroots.6791:

Re:cranos
Solo and low-man groups. Arah. Level 50 fractals. Not raid level difficulty, but definitely a challenge.

Even the true elite, who felt like everything was too easy, had options available to make the content engaging and interesting. People ran solo or with a friend. Maybe in white gear or blues. Sometimes naked. Less than ideal but… options none the less.

The difference is that when content is too hard for you to beat, you’re out of options. There’s no p2w type boosts that will allow you to coast through. You literally cannot play it.

Your argument fails at the group part. I have no clue why you consider soloing content challenging group content.

Then you comment on Vinceman about no rewards, about content not being relevant. How is purposefully handicapping yourself with bad gear or lowmanning 5man instances at all relevant either? You’re not getting any more reward out of it, it just takes a long kitten time.

Not having new dungeons or fractals is a shame, but that fault is a fault on its own and a terrible anti-raid argument. For 3 years we only got boring open world content. Not a single effort was made to cater any content towards ppl looking for a challenge. And even when the expansion came around they decided to completely destroy any fun had in fractals by “revamping” the system yet again, which they then had to spend even more time on to unkitten it. Terrible decisions for years on end caused this content to be what it is today, not raids.

You can try twisting and turning it as much as you want, there was no challenging group content before raids came around. It fills that niche, considering anet hasn’t scrapped them and even commented about them being more popular than they anticipated it seems to fill that niche quite well.

That feel when someone tells you challenging content involves purposing handicapping yourself to make the content challenging.

Oh, cranos. Dude. No. You’ve taken my post entirely out of context. Rest assured that I’m not anti-raid at all.

Very few of us who don’t particularly enjoy them are saying that Anet shouldn’t have created hardcore content. I just think they should either have been more inclusive (i.e. different levels of difficulty, or that there should have added a comparable amount of relevant low to moderate level difficulty content added. That’s all. We lack balance.

I can understand why people tend to be closed-minded and dismissive in topics like this – “I’m gettin’ what I want so kitten everyone else.” But I think the lack of options is bad for the game overall. Blaeys provided a detailed and insightful explanation, far better than I could, on page one. Maybe take a look back there if you haven’t already.

Jahroots.6791:

Oh, cranos. Dude. No. You’ve taken my post entirely out of context. Rest assured that I’m not anti-raid at all.

Very few of us who don’t particularly enjoy them are saying that Anet shouldn’t have created hardcore content. I just think they should either have been more inclusive (i.e. different levels of difficulty, or that there should have added a comparable amount of relevant low to moderate level difficulty content added. That’s all. We lack balance.

I can understand why people tend to be closed-minded and dismissive in topics like this – “I’m gettin’ what I want so kitten everyone else.” But I think the lack of options is bad for the game overall. Blaeys provided a detailed and insightful explanation, far better than I could, on page one. Maybe take a look back there if you haven’t already.

This is again not a raid problem though. Had they had the vision that the current fractal team has when they started reworking them for the expansion we probably would’ve have multiple new fun instances. The fact they failed at creating new moderately difficult content because they were too busy destroying the zerk meta by adding kittened amounts of toughness and ridiculous instabilities that were downright anti-skillful play is a mistake on their own.

I agree to cranos and like to add that they failed at creating new dungeons with aetherpath and completely draw false conclusions from this failure. The path would have been in line with the others without the ooze puzzle (the other ones are ok atm, imho) and with the ability to skip videos. Without these things the path would have been more successful and compatible with community expectations. If they have continued to add such instanced content regularly the community would have been pleased.

Jahroots.6791:

Very few of us who don’t particularly enjoy them are saying that Anet shouldn’t have created hardcore content. I just think they should either have been more inclusive (i.e. different levels of difficulty, or that there should have added a comparable amount of relevant low to moderate level difficulty content added. That’s all. We lack balance.

The fact is — and this is a fact that is readily verifiable if you follow forums at all — that there are any number of demographics that want constant attention, and if the complaints are to be believed, none of them are getting enough to do. That’s why we see lower difficulty content in the persistent world and harder content in instances. Making multiple tiers of difficulty is just flat out more work, and ANet cannot keep up with player demand as is. So, as nice as it might be, it does not look like what you want is likely.

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

I would challenge you to back that statement up with the actual threads. From what I see, most people advocating this kind of change (with a few exceptions) even make a point to say that any lesser difficulty mode should have a lesser reward (that does not include legendary armor).

Most just want it because we think it would be fun – and something new to do for more people in the game. It really isn’t any more sinister than that.

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

I would challenge you to back that statement up with the actual threads. From what I see, most people advocating this kind of change (with a few exceptions) even make a point to say that any lesser difficulty mode should have a lesser reward (that does not include legendary armor).

Most just want it because we think it would be fun – and something new to do for more people in the game. It really isn’t any more sinister than that.

No, most start that way. Whether it’s a topic about QQ story QQ training QQ easy mode or anything else, few pages down the line they drop the act and the QQ armor starts.

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

I would challenge you to back that statement up with the actual threads. From what I see, most people advocating this kind of change (with a few exceptions) even make a point to say that any lesser difficulty mode should have a lesser reward (that does not include legendary armor).

Most just want it because we think it would be fun – and something new to do for more people in the game. It really isn’t any more sinister than that.

No, most start that way. Whether it’s a topic about QQ story QQ training QQ easy mode or anything else, few pages down the line they drop the act and the QQ armor starts.

You’re taking the comments of one or two posters and applying them to everyone to turn a meaningful conversation into a discussion about loot (which many of us agree with you on btw – multiple difficulties should have different reward systems).

It boils the conversation down to the most contentious (and thus most easily refuted) point – and simply isn’t representative of the larger discussion – which should be focused on the appeal and potential of multiple difficulty tiers in terms of bringing more people into raiding, giving more people more to do, justifying greater resources for the game mode in general, etc.

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

I would challenge you to back that statement up with the actual threads. From what I see, most people advocating this kind of change (with a few exceptions) even make a point to say that any lesser difficulty mode should have a lesser reward (that does not include legendary armor).

Most just want it because we think it would be fun – and something new to do for more people in the game. It really isn’t any more sinister than that.

No, most start that way. Whether it’s a topic about QQ story QQ training QQ easy mode or anything else, few pages down the line they drop the act and the QQ armor starts.

You’re taking the comments of one or two posters and applying them to everyone to turn a meaningful conversation into a discussion about loot (which many of us agree with you on btw – multiple difficulties should have different reward systems).

It boils the conversation down to the most contentious (and thus most easily refuted) point – and simply isn’t representative of the larger discussion – which should be focused on the appeal and potential of multiple difficulty tiers in terms of bringing more people into raiding, giving more people more to do, justifying greater resources for the game mode in general, etc.

This conversation has been had and unlike you may claim, it hasn’t been belittled or derided at all.

It’s very simple.

Anet changes main focus to raids instead of LS: sure have all the easy/medium/hard modes you want.

Anet doesn’t change course and keeps it as is: it’s been taking over 6 months already for new content and you’re asking for extra modes, depriving the target audience of content for an easy 6 months more.

So what exactly are you asking here? Less raid content or less emphasis on those things that drive “mass appeal”?

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

Blaeys.3102:

cranos.5913:

NikeEU.7690:

I still wonder why it’s not OK for there to exist content that you say, “this isn’t for me so I’ll just not do it.” I don’t understand why raids are this weird game mode where certain players feel entitled to a certain accessibility.

99% of these QQ threads eventually boil down to “I want leggy armor”.

I would challenge you to back that statement up with the actual threads. From what I see, most people advocating this kind of change (with a few exceptions) even make a point to say that any lesser difficulty mode should have a lesser reward (that does not include legendary armor).

Most just want it because we think it would be fun – and something new to do for more people in the game. It really isn’t any more sinister than that.

No, most start that way. Whether it’s a topic about QQ story QQ training QQ easy mode or anything else, few pages down the line they drop the act and the QQ armor starts.

You’re taking the comments of one or two posters and applying them to everyone to turn a meaningful conversation into a discussion about loot (which many of us agree with you on btw – multiple difficulties should have different reward systems).

It boils the conversation down to the most contentious (and thus most easily refuted) point – and simply isn’t representative of the larger discussion – which should be focused on the appeal and potential of multiple difficulty tiers in terms of bringing more people into raiding, giving more people more to do, justifying greater resources for the game mode in general, etc.

This conversation has been had and unlike you may claim, it hasn’t been belittled or derided at all.

It’s very simple.

Anet changes main focus to raids instead of LS: sure have all the easy/medium/hard modes you want.

Anet doesn’t change course and keeps it as is: it’s been taking over 6 months already for new content and you’re asking for extra modes, depriving the target audience of content for an easy 6 months more.

So what exactly are you asking here? Less raid content or less emphasis on those things that drive “mass appeal”?

I was simply responding to you baseless claim that everyone advocating for this kind of change is simply looking for easy to get legendary armor. While there have been a few rare posters asking for that kind of change, most seem to realize it isn’t the focus of most of these conversations.

To the point you just now brought up, I don’t think raids will ever be considered a core game feature of GW2, but that doesn’t mean the developers cannot (or should not) look at how 10-player instances (which is really all that defines a GW2 raid) could be used as a general content development tool.

To many of us, the appeal of GW2 PVE has always been that we didn’t have to worry about the skill level of the people we played alongside – we chose who to play with based on FRIENDSHIPs rather than how much effort they put into their gear/rotations/etc. It made the game friendlier and more open to groups of friends/the formation of in-game communities).

At the same time, where appropriate, content offered tiers so that those of us looking for a bit more of a challenge (including myself in many cases) could hop into a higher level fractal or go for the tougher achievements.

That mix and diversity – across all PVE game modes – made GW2 a pretty unique game and place to play with friends. For many of us, raiding takes the game in the opposite direction.

That isn’t about loot or legendary armor as you claim – it is simply about wanting to enjoy content with people based on friendships rather than mathematical requirements/adherence to metas/etc. Again, it is no more sinister than that.

To add to that – I realize why there is so much tension around this topic. A lot of people see these games as a competition – a way to show skill and gaming prowess. But, there are other kinds of gamers out there – those who look at GW2 as the ultimate fantasy world game where we can act heroic alongside friends (with no more motivation than that). At launch and for the first 3 years, GW2 was the perfect game for those kinds of people – eschewing the segmentation so many other MMOs heavy handily pushed on communities. That is why raiding – in its current form – feels so out of place in the game and, frankly, contrary to the feel many came to game to experience.

Blaeys.3102:

That is why raiding – in its current form – feels so out of place in the game and, frankly, contrary to the feel many came to game to experience.

This is true for players like you who started playing in the last year or two. Older players, especially those who’ve been with the game since release, and those without memory deficiency issues, remember all to well that not all content in the game was ever made for everyone. It’s puzzling that after Raids all the crowd who never run a dungeon or fractal is coming to this part of the forums talking about raids.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

That is why raiding – in its current form – feels so out of place in the game and, frankly, contrary to the feel many came to game to experience.

This is true for players like you who started playing in the last year or two. Older players, especially those who’ve been with the game since release, and those without memory deficiency issues, remember all to well that not all content in the game was ever made for everyone. It’s puzzling that after Raids all the crowd who never run a dungeon or fractal is coming to this part of the forums talking about raids.

Don’t make assumptions – and the veiled insults are really not helpful. Ive been here since the beginning – leading what is probably one of the largest continually active guilds in the game.

Even old school dungeons purposefully (imo) stayed away from hard enrage timers/mechanics so that players could build in a tiered approach – with harder core players going full zerker while those that needed a cushion built in more survivability. Even in the first months of the game, I saw players of all skill levels completing every path of Arah – the only deviation was how long it took them. It may not have been completely obvious to all players at the time, but a form of scaling was there.

Blaeys.3102:

Ive been here since the beginning

The rest of your post suggests otherwise.

You can do a quick search on these forums and find out how those “tiers” of yours used to work. Hint: they didn’t. There have been way more discussion on the subject of hardcore difficulty dungeons of this game than anything we’ve seen for Raids so far. Yet, no tiers were ever added to the game, although it was suggested multiple times. It makes you wonder.

Blaeys.3102:

I was simply responding to you baseless claim that everyone advocating for this kind of change is simply looking for easy to get legendary armor. While there have been a few rare posters asking for that kind of change, most seem to realize it isn’t the focus of most of these conversations.

To the point you just now brought up, I don’t think raids will ever be considered a core game feature of GW2, but that doesn’t mean the developers cannot (or should not) look at how 10-player instances (which is really all that defines a GW2 raid) could be used as a general content development tool.

To many of us, the appeal of GW2 PVE has always been that we didn’t have to worry about the skill level of the people we played alongside – we chose who to play with based on FRIENDSHIPs rather than how much effort they put into their gear/rotations/etc. It made the game friendlier and more open to groups of friends/the formation of in-game communities).

At the same time, where appropriate, content offered tiers so that those of us looking for a bit more of a challenge (including myself in many cases) could hop into a higher level fractal or go for the tougher achievements.

That mix and diversity – across all PVE game modes – made GW2 a pretty unique game and place to play with friends. For many of us, raiding takes the game in the opposite direction.

That isn’t about loot or legendary armor as you claim – it is simply about wanting to enjoy content with people based on friendships rather than mathematical requirements/adherence to metas/etc. Again, it is no more sinister than that.

To add to that – I realize why there is so much tension around this topic. A lot of people see these games as a competition – a way to show skill and gaming prowess. But, there are other kinds of gamers out there – those who look at GW2 as the ultimate fantasy world game where we can act heroic alongside friends (with no more motivation than that). At launch and for the first 3 years, GW2 was the perfect game for those kinds of people – eschewing the segmentation so many other MMOs heavy handily pushed on communities. That is why raiding – in its current form – feels so out of place in the game and, frankly, contrary to the feel many came to game to experience.

I see a lot of words again… yet, again, none really address the issue at hand. Resources. Anet as a company is limited in what they can achieve. They opted to get a side-project that once in a while drops in some great challenging content. The vast majority is still aimed at your typical spam 1 on staff netflix watchers, but once in a while ppl that want a little bit more get it.

Now you are asking them to 1. take ppl off other projects to make raids bigger than they were supposed to be or 2. take that tiny little bit of content away from its target audience to suit your needs. Which one is it?

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

That is why raiding – in its current form – feels so out of place in the game and, frankly, contrary to the feel many came to game to experience.

This is true for players like you who started playing in the last year or two. Older players, especially those who’ve been with the game since release, and those without memory deficiency issues, remember all to well that not all content in the game was ever made for everyone. It’s puzzling that after Raids all the crowd who never run a dungeon or fractal is coming to this part of the forums talking about raids.

Sorry, you’re not the only veteran here. And making thinly veiled personal insults is not helping your arguments any.

maddoctor.2738:

Blaeys.3102:

Ive been here since the beginning

The rest of your post suggests otherwise.

You can do a quick search on these forums and find out how those “tiers” of yours used to work. Hint: they didn’t. There have been way more discussion on the subject of hardcore difficulty dungeons of this game than anything we’ve seen for Raids so far. Yet, no tiers were ever added to the game, although it was suggested multiple times. It makes you wonder.

Are you sure you remember it right? Because i sure do remember some type of the content called Fractals that got introduced 3 months after launch. And i kind of remember that the reason we didn’t get hard mode difficulty (and why dungeons in general got nerfed), was because player interest in greater difficulty was at that time way too low for Anet to consider it.

Also, remember when they introduced Twilight Assault, which was at that time significantly harder than the average dungeon? It was so unpopular, that Anet decided to cancel any further dungeon development altogether.

But of course you’d have to play the game for a longer time to remember that[/sarcasm]

cranos.5913:

Ask yourself this, if it was truly as easy to make a tiered system where everyone gets to experience the content as you claim it is, why hasn’t anet done this? Why would they deliberately shoot themselves in the foot for what’s apparently a negligible amount of extra time?

For the same reason they made a lot of decisions for HoT (and not only for HoT) they have had to fix (with a lot of effort) later. They just usually can’t imagine that the idea they had migh not be well-received by many players.

Astralporing.1957:

Also, remember when they introduced Twilight Assault, which was at that time significantly harder than the average dungeon? It was so unpopular, that Anet decided to cancel any further dungeon development altogether.

Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?

Astralporing.1957:

Sorry, you’re not the only veteran here.

Sometimes I feel like I am.

Are you sure you remember it right?

I remember it really well because I was running dungeons back then.

Also, remember when they introduced Twilight Assault, which was at that time significantly harder than the average dungeon? It was so unpopular, that Anet decided to cancel any further dungeon development altogether.

It was unpopular because of the rewards vs the length of it, and the general lack of any meaningful rewards, not because it was harder. But of course you’d have to be playing at that time to remember it. Or at least finish the Aetherpath at least once in your life.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Also, remember when they introduced Twilight Assault, which was at that time significantly harder than the average dungeon? It was so unpopular, that Anet decided to cancel any further dungeon development altogether.

Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?

He is right about canceling any further dungeon development. It was mentioned in an interview that the effort to design was too big compared to the actual replay numbers by players. The bottom line was: It is not worth it to spend dev time to new dungeons.

But he is wrong with the rest:
It was not the difficulty of the boss encounters or mobs that kept players away. They simply failed with very unhandy puzzles like the ooze one and unskippable movie scenes. Actually, I think the first one is and was the key why people avoided Aetherpath. Back in the days most of the pug groups tried the ooze part several times and disbanded after not succeeding. One the other hand I’ve never encountered any pug group that stopped the run elsewhere.
I’m adamantly convinced that Aether would have been a big success without the ooze puzzle and a little increase in rewards.

@ blaeys

Agreed lets not make this personal and lets accept that nobody knows the statistics needed to support any argument about allocating resources.

Yet we have the word of an insider that you must not underestimate the much needed resources. Furthermore Anets stance on the matter clearly signals that they do not think a tiered raiding system is worth it. You keep bringing it up but they have decided. If you wanna make raids better argue about accessibility without a tiered system. Or talk about other group content preparing you for raids.

Personally I enjoy all kinds of content and I prefer varying content. Any resources put in a different iteration of the same content is a waste for me.

But hej lets keep putting effort in this dead topic.

DutchRiders.2871:

@ blaeys

Agreed lets not make this personal and lets accept that nobody knows the statistics needed to support any argument about allocating resources.

Yet we have the word of an insider that you must not underestimate the much needed resources. Furthermore Anets stance on the matter clearly signals that they do not think a tiered raiding system is worth it. You keep bringing it up but they have decided. If you wanna make raids better argue about accessibility without a tiered system. Or talk about other group content preparing you for raids.

Personally I enjoy all kinds of content and I prefer varying content. Any resources put in a different iteration of the same content is a waste for me.

But hej lets keep putting effort in this dead topic.

Thank you for reinforcing the importance of avoiding personal attacks and belittling posts.

Here is my take, which I’ve had since the very beginning -

They could have turned anything into challenging content – a fractal, a personal story step, open world bosses (by creating instanced versions accessible via the guild flag), guild missions, things like Liadri, dungeons – virtually anything.

The reason they took the path they did (imo) is that, for the average MMO player playing other games (that they wanted to market to with HOT), the term raid implies a higher level of difficulty. But, keep in mind that is only an experiential definition, not a definitive one. Plenty of games use 10 player instancing to provide more accessible content – in many cases, lower tier versions of raids.

I think Anet played off of the experiential definition as part of the marketing/PR plan for Heart of Thorns. By adding the word “raid” to the box, they were able to market to a new kind of player – to, as we say in the industry, “expand their brand.” They went a step further by saying “and it will be the hardest content we’ve ever included” in order to differentiate and break away from the perception of the game as more casual outside of the existing playerbase. They were marketing to a specific kind of player – one that currently wasn’t playing GW2. It had very little to do with existing players, imo.

When they did that, they boxed themselves into a corner, in my opinion. In reality, a raid is nothing more than a 10-player instance. Within that instance they can do anything they want.

What I would have liked to have seen was the addition of raids as another base type of content – something that could be easily woven into the story alongside LS instances, fractals, guild missions and open world. Then the “challenging content” team would come in behind all of that content and add hardcore versions across the board – one quarter it might be a challenge fractal, the next it would be changes to a world boss or guild mission – and so on.

This, imo, would have added a lot more depth to the game – and would have allowed the story team to integrate 10 player content on an ongoing basis into the development plan.

By taking the path they took, they are essentially segmenting the playerbase unnecessarily. Now, I realize it is already somewhat segmented based on player perception of content, the meta, etc- but it has never been to the degree that raids create (something they have surely seen and knew was going to happen by looking at the history of other raiding games).

Ten player instances do not necessarily equal challenging content. In fact, a single player encounter can be made just as, or more, difficult in most cases (as proof, look at pretty much any hard single player game).

And, now, we have this perception in the game that raids have to equal hardcore. That tool is now reserved for a very specific type of content. Those kind of limits aren’t good for the game. And the further playerbase segmentation that comes with them is very unhealthy for the game.

This topic has been discussed for a really long time, I agree – but I do not agree that it is dead. As long as raids perpetuate the level of segmentation they currently do, this topic will naturally resurface on these and other forums (we’ve seen it happen). And I don’t expect it to stop anytime soon. There is a lot of passion and animosity on all sides (and there are definitely more than two sides) of this. That said, I do think, most of the time, the conversation is healthy and productive (even a lot of times when I disagree with what is being said).

But, again, thanks for not making it personal or resorting to insults/generalizations. That is what these forums should look like.

Blaeys.3102:

This topic has been discussed for a really long time, I agree – but I do not agree that it is dead.

There isn’t one topic and that’s the main problem. Making threads that try to deal with everything surrounding Raids is a terrible move, the more specific some topic is, the better discussion it provides. General threads that talk about Raids in general aren’t helping anyone. They are also usually ignored by the devs too, while posts that offer some actual discussion have dev posts in them. I’ll remind two of them:

Topic discussing tiers like fractals for Raids:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/first
We got a dev response about it:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/first#post6403471
No tiers like Fractals for Raids. Raids should be the hardest difficulty content in the game.

Topic asking for a Story mode for Raids so everyone can experience the story of the Raids.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first
Got a dev response about it:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first#post6416831
There is discussion internally about it, nothing to share with us yet, but we’ll see in the future.

That’s it. There are NO tiers like Fractals coming for Raids and they ARE exploring new ways of presenting us the story, whatever that would mean in the end.

Very specific topics, got very specific answers.

Blaeys.3102:

Ten player instances do not necessarily equal challenging content. In fact, a single player encounter can be made just as, or more, difficult in most cases (as proof, look at pretty much any hard single player game).

and this is why raids being the most difficult content is a horrible policy to sit on, because it absolutely cripples solo/small group difficulty.

The raid encounters aren’t difficult, they’re actually incredibly simple. The only reason that they’re looked on as being so are

1) Tedium in forming a group for it since it requires so many people
2) The fact that there are so many other people that you can’t control who could make a mess of things

If we cap single player difficulty to content that can’t[ be too difficult because of all the uncontrollable potential fail states (mandatory other players), then we’ll never get anything interesting.

Eponet.4829:

2) The fact that there are so many other people that you can’t control who could make a mess of things

Add a proper dps meter = problem solved.

Sorry, but adding a proper dps meter won’t help at all. In this case I’m definitely with the critics. It would lead to more discrimination because right now pugs aren’t willing to take players with them if they have less than xyz LI. So, if you don’t bring the right dps you will be kicked, the group wouldn’t wait till you go it.
Furthermore people’s mistake are the things that usually lead to a wipe not missing dps.

In my opinion people should be realistic and accept the key points (in no order):
If they want to raid they’ll
- need to respect the team aspect and learn to subordinate
- need to get the right gear and buff food
- should learn to play their classes to a level that they actually contribute the skill needed
- should watch video guides and inform themselves about the encounters
- invest effort and time
- …

GW2 raids are not hard but if you cannot or do not want to deal with the actual difficulty you should move on to a different content.

Vinceman.4572:

Furthermore people’s mistake are the things that usually lead to a wipe not missing dps.

You misunderstand my post apparently. These mistakes right here are visible. There’s an easy fix, you teach em or you kick em. There, controlled.

DPS meter would help loads in identifying the problems you can’t see.

cranos.5913:

DPS meter would help loads in identifying the problems you can’t see.

Which unseen problems? If people are taught to make 0 mistakes they’ll have no problems in succeeding.
Every week many pugs are showing it and I doubt that most of these people are running good dps rotations. I myself have never trained at the golem, neither with my main nor with my tempest that is played in raids only and usually the time or dps isn’t a problem, at the most on the first pull.

Vinceman.4572:

cranos.5913:

DPS meter would help loads in identifying the problems you can’t see.

Which unseen problems? If people are taught to make 0 mistakes they’ll have no problems in succeeding.

Quite often ppl don’t even realise when their dps is low. Actually showing this, even if it’s just personal and not group-wide would make the average player a lot more skillful.

cranos.5913:

Quite often ppl don’t even realise when their dps is low. Actually showing this, even if it’s just personal and not group-wide would make the average player a lot more skillful.

Yes, but it doesn’t matter. You’ll get bosses down even though you don’t run good dps rotations.

Vinceman.4572:

cranos.5913:

Quite often ppl don’t even realise when their dps is low. Actually showing this, even if it’s just personal and not group-wide would make the average player a lot more skillful.

Yes, but it doesn’t matter. You’ll get bosses down even though you don’t run good dps rotations.

I don’t know what you are trying to argue. Whether or not dps matters depends on your goals as a group but that wasn’t what this was about. The original comment was that you can’t control ppl making a mess of things. Well, if they make visible group wiping mistakes it’s extremely obvious what the problem is and if it’s an issue with dps/buff uptime a dps meter would make those mistakes obvious too.

Obvious mistakes are controllable.

forum bug I guess

Vinceman.4572:

cranos.5913:

DPS meter would help loads in identifying the problems you can’t see.

Which unseen problems? If people are taught to make 0 mistakes they’ll have no problems in succeeding.
Every week many pugs are showing it and I doubt that most of these people are running good dps rotations. I myself have never trained at the golem, neither with my main nor with my tempest that is played in raids only and usually the time or dps isn’t a problem, at the most on the first pull.

Expecting anyone, even the top raiders, to make no mistakes is beyond unrealistic. I can think of several speed runs, and raiding tourney 1v1s where mistakes were made for every group involved. There is no such thing as perfection when we are talking about human error.

The real question is whether the mistakes you make will wipe your team. Half the time THOSE are the important mistakes, even if it drops dps. If you are running into an enrage timer then dps is definately the issue, because based on average dps, most pugs should be killing them with minutes to spare even without the ‘meta’ comps.

Just because DPS wasn’t an issue does not mean your DPS was perfect. There is a stark difference between those two things.

Also you not using a training golem, means the LAST thing you should be talking about is your personal dps, because you have no idea what it is if you have never used a training golem.

FrostDraco.8306:

Just because DPS wasn’t an issue does not mean your DPS was perfect. There is a stark difference between those two things.

Of course, that was what I was trying to say. I’ve never claimed about me bringing the perfect rotations and therefore the perfect dps on the table but I’m still getting the bosses down – easily.
And this with the knowledge that I’ve run numberless bosses with people being way worse than me in this game. Hell, I’ve lead or was part in many groups with people being new to several raid encounter and also low-manned raid bosses with many players that are too lazy to practice perfect dps rotations.

FrostDraco.8306:

Also you not using a training golem, means the LAST thing you should be talking about is your personal dps, because you have no idea what it is if you have never used a training golem.

The thing is, you are defending the perfect or nearly perfect rotations on classes too much. It’s fine if you can follow and execute skill combinations but it’s not the most important thing in GW2 raids. The primary goal is to get boss mechanics straight if your group isn’t able to you’ll fail even though the dps is fine. On the other hand, if the team is doing 0 to almost no mistakes you’ll most likely succeed. And I don’t mean perfect gameplay in all senses here, I mean things like not missing any green circle at VG, not getting ported once, no downstate at Gorse due to misspositioning (it happens too often because ppl are not stacking with the team, even in “150 LI + killproof” groups), running into mines (Escort), jumping to platforms (Sabetha) etc. etc. Every well executed mechanic means more dps, every worse executed mechanic can lead to downstates/full deaths which result in a tremendous dps loss.

Also, there is a huge difference in doing terrible dps, decent dps and very good dps.
I agree to a certain extent that you need to know your class and the most important dps skills. A dps tempest camping on water is not the way to go, of course, but you also don’t need to master the class to be a relevant dps part in the group.

FrostDraco.8306:

If you are running into an enrage timer then dps is definately the issue, because based on average dps, most pugs should be killing them with minutes to spare even without the ‘meta’ comps.

Everyone raiding on a regular basis knows that running into the enrage timer isn’t an issue at all. Since release of the first wing we are arguing with uninformed non-raiders about that and I doubt you want to use that argument now. Timers still don’t matter!

The current level of difficulty should be used as a benchmark for a “normal mode” only. Any actual “hard mode” would have to step it quite a bit to give the frequent raiders a good challenge or two.

The “easy mode” people hope for has always been a huge topic here. Talked to death by now and seems rather unlikely at this point.
What I can see happening is the introduction of new rewards. Given to the other content more casual or pvp focused players might enjoy. Something equal to the insanely awesome raid rewards people have been yearning for.

I am a big fan of idea to have raids remain as content designed for and around the actual raiders. Those able to and most of all wanting to spend the time and effort needed to complete them.
Unique reward would be and always are my preference, yet it is unlike for them to remain that way as I mentioned above.
It is in the spirit of this game to give out rewards and easy success to each and everyone in due time, after all.

cranos.5913:

Vinceman.4572:

cranos.5913:

DPS meter would help loads in identifying the problems you can’t see.

Which unseen problems? If people are taught to make 0 mistakes they’ll have no problems in succeeding.

Quite often ppl don’t even realise when their dps is low. Actually showing this, even if it’s just personal and not group-wide would make the average player a lot more skillful.

Nah, it’d just end up being another kitten for people to boast about or castigate others about.

WoW has plenty of DPS meters, both personal and group, and guess what it also has: your exact complaint there. “People don’t realise their DPS is low. They need a meter to improve. I’ll link one.”

Turns out that here, just like there, the real problems come down to mechanics of the fights, and to stop chasing the “flavor of the month” class so that they can actually know whatever they play well enough to, y’know, actually pay attention to the mechanics.

People should realize the mechanics of the fight are intrinsically linked to dps. How many green circles are vg does a speed clear guild have to deal with? 5 or 6. How many does a mediocre pug have to deal with? 8 or 9? 10?? How many orbs does a speed clear guild have to clear at gorseval? 1 or 2? How many does a mediocre pug have yo clear? 5 or 6?

How long do the healers in a speed clear guild have to go into turbo heal mode when sabetha and karde are alive together? 20 seconds? How long does a mediocre pug have yo deal with that pressure? 45 seconds?

How many shoots does a speed clear guild have to eat to kill slothadaur? 3. How many does a mediocre pug have to eat? 5 or 6?

I could go on. But you get the point hopefully. Good dps makes the mechanics easier. Raiding 101.

You want a hard mode for your raids? sure >
Fighting 2 vale guardians at once
Gorseval will bring ruin to the world every 30 seconds
The a flamewall will be spinning around sabetha permanenta, a double one at 75%, a triple one at 33%