Guild Wars 2

I want to start by saying that I have beaten all bosses Vale Guardina, Gorseveal, and Sabetha. Just to get that out of the way.

Though I personally feel that the enrage timers 200% dmg boost is a lazy way to increase its difficulty and bars players to play the way they want to instead of it being the same old maximize dps race. Even healers and tanks in the game want to meet the bare minnimum of those requirements to max out personal dps.

I feel that the timers where really only necessary for Vale Guardian. With Gorseval you have only 4 updrafts to avoid the instakill aoe so if you cannot kill him after using the updrafts that already kills you without the need for the timer enrage cause it can happen after the third updraft use so it makes less skill and more dps. Sabetha has a uniqueness as well as the platform can be damaged and eventually burn beneath you killing you group( this has never happened to me but assume this is the case). These two mechanics seem more than enough without the need to add a timer on top as well as it equates to more skilled played and learning the boss mechanics than burn them as fast as possible.

With Vale Guardian it seems that they had a good platform with mechanics of the lit panels damaging your group. If it was me I would have used a timer of 2 mins at a time to dps VG as much as possible before he spilts. Then you down the RBG guardians which goes to fighting the VG with the lit panels and repeats to the second after which there are 2 lit panels. Now after the third spilt the panels switch faster meaning you have to move him faster out of the danger zone and with the need to CC him to get him mobile again makes this more important. Fourth time all panels stay lit, and this still gives you a chance to kill him if you have a healer or two to keep you group alive.

Timers in any game is a lazy mans difficulty setter and is really dated though many games still use them, they are generally seen with disdain. There are better ways to make things hard and fun.

The Funny thing is that two bosses of the first wing already had the designs for being hard without a timer and opening up diverse build use. Even then Anet decides to still give them enrage timers as a kitten you to player base.

Just my thoughts, I might be wrong and would like to know what others think

Yes, I fully agree

I agree too, timers are a lazy way to make a fight difficult and completely unnecessary for gorseval and sabetha.

I disagree- timers put added pressure and are a good thing.

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

I do not think this is the case where you could run 10 Nomads Hammer guardians. With Gorseval you would lose cause of the limited updrafts and Sabetha the stress of keeping the platform up would eventually get your group killed cause 15-20 mins of that would just take one small misstep to make a group fail. Really only Vg would be viable with the way it is now but if they did like I said the fight would most certainly be easy after the 4th spilt with the entire surface damaging you, I only said 4th but if you where going for a 5th 6th spilt the damage intensity of the platform would become more damaging.

So clearly it is lazy to think oh if there are no timers people would use the tankiest gear to get through it and as a developer should be able to come up with another solution than enrage timer.

Astaral.8635:

I do not think this is the case where you could run 10 Nomads Hammer guardians. With Gorseval you would lose cause of the limited updrafts and Sabetha the stress of keeping the platform up would eventually get your group killed cause 15-20 mins of that would just take one small misstep to make a group fail. Really only Vg would be viable with the way it is now but if they did like I said the fight would most certainly be easy after the 4th spilt with the entire surface damaging you, I only said 4th but if you where going for a 5th 6th spilt the damage intensity of the platform would become more damaging.

So clearly it is lazy to think oh if there are no timers people would use the tankiest gear to get through it and as a developer should be able to come up with another solution than enrage timer.

This exactly. You can force a DPS check without using a timer. In other games, I’ve seen this where an entire phase is dedicated to opening a boss to a 15 second vulnerable period where if the team doesn’t achieve enough DPS in that window the phase resets. Something like this would especially good for theives since that class is primarily focused on burst.

Or another example being where the team has a DPS “tug-of-war” with the boss to push it off a platform, where more DPS causes the boss to stumble back and the more its pushed back the more buffs it gets.

Needless to say these bosses don’t have timers. Its on the Devs to get actually get creative.

Astaral.8635:

I do not think this is the case where you could run 10 Nomads Hammer guardians. With Gorseval you would lose cause of the limited updrafts and Sabetha the stress of keeping the platform up would eventually get your group killed cause 15-20 mins of that would just take one small misstep to make a group fail. Really only Vg would be viable with the way it is now but if they did like I said the fight would most certainly be easy after the 4th spilt with the entire surface damaging you, I only said 4th but if you where going for a 5th 6th spilt the damage intensity of the platform would become more damaging.

So clearly it is lazy to think oh if there are no timers people would use the tankiest gear to get through it and as a developer should be able to come up with another solution than enrage timer.

actually if timer wasn’t there or much generous what would happen is a minimum number of nomad guardian/nomad anything that does damage passively+ some mix of tanky professions+ full cleric druid/ele and then the facerolling begins. Basically with enrage timer not meaning anything people will do some mechanics but most of them will resort to auto attacking until the boss is down.

It changes the fights from dealing much dps as possible to execute raid mechanics while using active defenses such as block, aegis, protection, dodge, heal, etc to prevent one from wiping to having any number of people perform raid mechanic while the majority sits and auto attacks hoping the boss dies and not resorting to use active defenses because the gear already covers all that.

Having enrage time and having people clear the raid with little to no passive defense is good. personally I wish gorseval’s slam attack would absorb protection and stability while one shotting those who didn’t dodge to emphasize the importance of dodging and endurance management.

Well I don’t know.

For VG I think the Timer is very important. Otherwise you could take a team of 4 tank, self sustaining dude for the Circle team and that would make the fight so much easier. The timer is also very lose and if you have any decent group, it shouldn’t be a problem anyway. So that timer is really good if you ask me.

For gorseval, the timer isn’t that necessary. You would still need to have enough dps to kill him before the last updraft. But the timer put pressure on your not for the dps but for the Orbs. Without a timer, you could just almost never take care of the orbs until the Souls appear, then soft cc the crap out of them, while you destroy all the orbs, taking your time to kill the soul after and getting back to the boss. TBH I don’t think that’s it’s a big deal. They could remove the timer if they want, it would change much if you ask me. It wouldn’t make the boss that much easier really. But I don’t find it lazy design either.

For Sabetha, it would change a lot of thing to not have a timer. Yes the platform would eventually get killed, but then people could just go in advance on the cannons and kill them when they appear, taking their time. It would make that fight a lot easier. They could still remove the timer, but they would need to make the platform more easier to kill if you ask me.

Removing the timers would make the bosses easier and allow groups with worse gear and worse comps to possibly complete it, this is as always, a completely stupid idea and anyone who suggests it should just stop please. Can we get these threads merged? This same topic has been posted a billion times.

I agree with this, VG is the only boss that needs a timer, Gorseval is a DPS check it won’t change a single thing without this and Sabetha already has too much stuff to care about, people only dies because they have to DPS fast and they just go with rotations that barely keep them alive.

As an Elementalist I never run Water in any fights because I would lose a lot of time just by pressing F2 on my keyboard, it shouldn’t be like this in my oppinion, you don’t want the trinity in this game but with Raids you are just pushing it and ignore the main thing about GW2 by asking people to Tank/DPS/Heal specifically…

Its not true that Sabetha can just end due to mechanics (unless you rebalance the damage cannons do and spawn more heavy bombs) while keeping the same limits on the encounter length (as has been discussed to death encounter length is important for balance and should be maintained whether through soft enrages or hard ones, the concept of “the enrage” should not be removed).

Gorseval is a DPS race boss, removing the timer kinda makes it pointless.

And as discussed VG needs the timer anyway.

I’m perfectly happy to have soft enrage bosses, just these current 3 either do not fall into that category (VG and Gorse) or would need serious rebalance (Sabetha), its a concept thats fine to keep in mind for future bosses though.

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

Astaral.8635:

I feel that the timers where really only necessary for Vale Guardian. With Gorseval you have only 4 updrafts to avoid the instakill aoe so if you cannot kill him after using the updrafts that already kills you without the need for the timer enrage cause it can happen after the third updraft use so it makes less skill and more dps.

I’m not passing judgement on your post as a whole because there are plenty of pros and cons to having the enrage timers, but what you are saying about gorseval is not true. It is extremely common to not CC him immediately in order to 1.) gain more DPS time before he goes to an updraft/does world eater and 2.) prevent gorseval from spawning spirits during the split phase. Without the enrage timer a decent team could hold CC for much longer and gain an even more stupid amount of “free” DPS time. This would mean that the “4 updrafts before death” is close to worthless as a DPS check.

I’m not saying there aren’t ways besides a timer that gorseval could be made into a DPS check that might be better, just that currently the updrafts alone are not a DPS check because they don’t penalize you in any way for grabbing “free” DPS during his break phase.

Raid timers aren’t intended to increase difficulty. They’re just there so people don’t cheese through with super tanky, low dps builds that can afford to stand in bad circles without dying.

In other words, boss mechanics provide the difficulty. Raid timers just make sure you don’t get to rid through with training wheels (defense stats).

Astaral.8635:

Though I personally feel that the enrage timers 200% dmg boost is a lazy way to increase its difficulty and bars players to play the way they want to instead of it being the same old maximize dps race. Even healers and tanks in the game want to meet the bare minnimum of those requirements to max out personal dps.

One of the main goals behind raids was to generate content in which players would feel the need to use the character mechanics more fully. Another was to present hard content that required players to step up their play — or to provide more of a challenge to those who already had. In what way is “play the way they want” going to do that?

Dungeons were originally supposed to be that content. However, they could be done by any group comp wearing anything they liked. So, what happened? They were deemed too easy, put on farm, and we saw a plethora of complaints about groups not accepting players who wanted to play the way they wanted to.

Remove timers, and it will become possible for any group comp to complete raids as long as they pay attention to mechanics. They will then be called too easy, put on farm (not that the current wing isn’t already) and many groups would still not accept people wearing any old gear.

I’d support removing the timers only if doing so made the raids harder. Since that’s unlikely, I say they stay.

Ertrak.9506:

This exactly. You can force a DPS check without using a timer. In other games, I’ve seen this where an entire phase is dedicated to opening a boss to a 15 second vulnerable period where if the team doesn’t achieve enough DPS in that window the phase resets.

You made me laugh.

They could just remove the timer and have you wipe at 8mins regardless.

They could just really immerse the kitten out of you and have vale guardian peace out and go hide in a random pillar in tarir and have the spirit woods never open.

The timers just tell how long you have to accomplish the given task. Some people prefer to see the exact time they have remaining, others prefer to have a bunch of screaming spirits walk up behind them and down them in 1 hit. Whatever floats your boat, if its a problem you can turn off your HUD.

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

Maybe, just maybe, read the OP before posting a reply.

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

No I comment on a thread without having any idea what I’m talking about, oh wait that sounds a lot like you.

Anyways, if you remove timers and allow people to run whatever the kitten they want at whatever pace they want, there isn’t much challenge left.
But since you are so certain raid boss mechanics are so challenging that they cause wipes even without an enrage timer, please tell a brother that has never done raids before what mechanics about a typical gorseval fight you think are actually challenging?

All I see, is people complaining about timers suggesting that ingame mechanics should take the place of timers.

So in essence, you are objecting to a numeric value which cuts off the fights, compared to a non-numeric visible value which, if it was ment to prevent exploitation of over tanking and just afking the content, would essentially do the exact same thing.

Sure, having non-visible boss mechanics kill you eventually is the neater option compared to timers. Timers though allow for more variety in boss behavior and developement of boss mechanics since you don’t have to find a neat way to end the fight (from a developer point of view).

Personally I see no difference in generous timers (let’s be honest, the current timers are very generous) versus boss mechanics that after some magical timer/event step start ranking up to wipe the group. One is more elegant, sure, but both do the exact same thing = make the fight end at a given point in time.

bladex.9502:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

No I comment on a thread without having any idea what I’m talking about, oh wait that sounds a lot like you.

Anyways, if you remove timers and allow people to run whatever the kitten they want at whatever pace they want, there isn’t much challenge left.
But since you are so certain raid boss mechanics are so challenging that they cause wipes even without an enrage timer, please tell a brother that has never done raids before what mechanics about a typical gorseval fight you think are actually challenging?

Are you trying to tell me you wipe more often to his enrage timer than to anything else? because I don’t buy that for a second.

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

No I comment on a thread without having any idea what I’m talking about, oh wait that sounds a lot like you.

Anyways, if you remove timers and allow people to run whatever the kitten they want at whatever pace they want, there isn’t much challenge left.
But since you are so certain raid boss mechanics are so challenging that they cause wipes even without an enrage timer, please tell a brother that has never done raids before what mechanics about a typical gorseval fight you think are actually challenging?

Are you trying to tell me you wipe more often to his enrage timer than to anything else? because I don’t buy that for a second.

Did you even read my post?
The enrage timers add a certain pressure that prevent people from beating it by stacking toughness and healing, and taking that enrage timer away would allow them to just faceroll it because there is no time pressure.

Compare it to a record run.
I would say dungeons are fairly easy, especially after doing them for 3 years.
But if you are doing a record run, there’s a certain time pressure, and you start doing things that have a smaller margin for error.
For example on-spot Ancient Ooze in Arah p1, during a normal casual run its one of the easiest bosses in the game, but if you are doing a record run and fighting it on spot, there’s a lot of stuff that can go wrong and cause a wipe, turning it to one of the hardest parts of the path.

Same goes for the raid bosses imo, of which the difficulty atm gets carried by timers

I like threads like this. They are like a reading comprehension test. A lot of you failed.

Hint – the OP was about the fact that enrage timers are lazy design, not whether or not dps checks are necessary.

bladex.9502:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

No I comment on a thread without having any idea what I’m talking about, oh wait that sounds a lot like you.

Anyways, if you remove timers and allow people to run whatever the kitten they want at whatever pace they want, there isn’t much challenge left.
But since you are so certain raid boss mechanics are so challenging that they cause wipes even without an enrage timer, please tell a brother that has never done raids before what mechanics about a typical gorseval fight you think are actually challenging?

Are you trying to tell me you wipe more often to his enrage timer than to anything else? because I don’t buy that for a second.

Did you even read my post?
The enrage timers add a certain pressure that prevent people from beating it by stacking toughness and healing, and taking that enrage timer away would allow them to just faceroll it because there is no time pressure.

Compare it to a record run.
I would say dungeons are fairly easy, especially after doing them for 3 years.
But if you are doing a record run, there’s a certain time pressure, and you start doing things that have a smaller margin for error.
For example on-spot Ancient Ooze in Arah p1, during a normal casual run its one of the easiest bosses in the game, but if you are doing a record run and fighting it on spot, there’s a lot of stuff that can go wrong and cause a wipe, turning it to one of the hardest parts of the path.

Same goes for the raid bosses imo, of which the difficulty atm gets carried by timers

I’m not sure what you are getting at here.
Are you saying timers make it too difficult in record runs and therefore should be removed? That seems like a ridiculous idea.

harumph.9621:

I like threads like this. They are like a reading comprehension test. A lot of you failed.

Hint – the OP was about the fact that enrage timers are lazy design, not whether or not dps checks are necessary.

Yes and like I tried to point out and many before me, timers are not a lazy design, they’re just an obvious one. Saying a timer is a lazy design is like saying driving to work is a lazy way to get to work because there are harder ways to get there. Timers are an easy way to accomplish a simple goal.

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

No I comment on a thread without having any idea what I’m talking about, oh wait that sounds a lot like you.

Anyways, if you remove timers and allow people to run whatever the kitten they want at whatever pace they want, there isn’t much challenge left.
But since you are so certain raid boss mechanics are so challenging that they cause wipes even without an enrage timer, please tell a brother that has never done raids before what mechanics about a typical gorseval fight you think are actually challenging?

Are you trying to tell me you wipe more often to his enrage timer than to anything else? because I don’t buy that for a second.

Did you even read my post?
The enrage timers add a certain pressure that prevent people from beating it by stacking toughness and healing, and taking that enrage timer away would allow them to just faceroll it because there is no time pressure.

Compare it to a record run.
I would say dungeons are fairly easy, especially after doing them for 3 years.
But if you are doing a record run, there’s a certain time pressure, and you start doing things that have a smaller margin for error.
For example on-spot Ancient Ooze in Arah p1, during a normal casual run its one of the easiest bosses in the game, but if you are doing a record run and fighting it on spot, there’s a lot of stuff that can go wrong and cause a wipe, turning it to one of the hardest parts of the path.

Same goes for the raid bosses imo, of which the difficulty atm gets carried by timers

I’m not sure what you are getting at here.
Are you saying timers make it too difficult in record runs and therefore should be removed? That seems like a ridiculous idea.

I’m seriously starting to think you are illiterate

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

If that’s the truth, the timer is not necessary.

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

If that’s the truth, the timer is not necessary.

Incorrect, the timer requires you to take squishier builds which then make wiping to the mechanics more likely. If there are no timers and everyone takes Nomads then the green circle on VG becomes irrelevant (still shocked you haven’t picked this up).

The timer forces you to confront the mechanics because you are not all tanks.

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

If that’s the truth, the timer is not necessary.

Incorrect, the timer requires you to take squishier builds which then make wiping to the mechanics more likely. If there are no timers and everyone takes Nomads then the green circle on VG becomes irrelevant (still shocked you haven’t picked this up).

The timer forces you to confront the mechanics because you are not all tanks.

I said “if that’s the truth”, didn’t i? And that was the bladex’s whole point – if without the timer boss mechanics can be made irrelevent by taking a different build, then those are some very bad and lazy boss mechanics, and the timer exists only to conceal that fact. Mechanics should be the difficulty, not the timer.

But then of course majority of raiders would not be able to clear them.

TheFamster.7806:

Astaral.8635:

I do not think this is the case where you could run 10 Nomads Hammer guardians. With Gorseval you would lose cause of the limited updrafts and Sabetha the stress of keeping the platform up would eventually get your group killed cause 15-20 mins of that would just take one small misstep to make a group fail. Really only Vg would be viable with the way it is now but if they did like I said the fight would most certainly be easy after the 4th spilt with the entire surface damaging you, I only said 4th but if you where going for a 5th 6th spilt the damage intensity of the platform would become more damaging.

So clearly it is lazy to think oh if there are no timers people would use the tankiest gear to get through it and as a developer should be able to come up with another solution than enrage timer.

actually if timer wasn’t there or much generous what would happen is a minimum number of nomad guardian/nomad anything that does damage passively+ some mix of tanky professions+ full cleric druid/ele and then the facerolling begins. Basically with enrage timer not meaning anything people will do some mechanics but most of them will resort to auto attacking until the boss is down.

It changes the fights from dealing much dps as possible to execute raid mechanics while using active defenses such as block, aegis, protection, dodge, heal, etc to prevent one from wiping to having any number of people perform raid mechanic while the majority sits and auto attacks hoping the boss dies and not resorting to use active defenses because the gear already covers all that.

Having enrage time and having people clear the raid with little to no passive defense is good. personally I wish gorseval’s slam attack would absorb protection and stability while one shotting those who didn’t dodge to emphasize the importance of dodging and endurance management.

Anet has stated they want rid of the max DPS only ideal. Problem is they are only enforcing it with raid timers. A pure DPS check achieves absolutely nothing. “oh look, I can DPS a wall down, I am so brilliant.” They need to put in a tactics requirement that actually needs people to move, dodge and think – timers do not achieve that.

Why not Champions that do proportionately massive damage to weakly armored toons rather than timers? Why not allow people to take in whatever armor they want and be able to achieve?

Obviously you and some others in this thread are being very selfish. You want it all your way. Being in an elite minority obviously means a lot to you. Go get a life.

I’m not saying make it easy, what I am saying is change the ethos. This is the first boss of the first wing of the first raid, it should be difficult, but putting a timer on everything just turns it into a DPS race.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

If that’s the truth, the timer is not necessary.

Incorrect, the timer requires you to take squishier builds which then make wiping to the mechanics more likely. If there are no timers and everyone takes Nomads then the green circle on VG becomes irrelevant (still shocked you haven’t picked this up).

The timer forces you to confront the mechanics because you are not all tanks.

I said “if that’s the truth”, didn’t i? And that was the bladex’s whole point – if without the timer boss mechanics can be made irrelevent by taking a different build, then those are some very bad and lazy boss mechanics, and the timer exists only to conceal that fact. Mechanics should be the difficulty, not the timer.

But then of course majority of raiders would not be able to clear them.

Again, saying timers are a lazy boss mechanic is like saying driving to work is a lazy way to get there because its an easy solution to a simple problem.

Serious.6940:

TheFamster.7806:

Astaral.8635:

I do not think this is the case where you could run 10 Nomads Hammer guardians. With Gorseval you would lose cause of the limited updrafts and Sabetha the stress of keeping the platform up would eventually get your group killed cause 15-20 mins of that would just take one small misstep to make a group fail. Really only Vg would be viable with the way it is now but if they did like I said the fight would most certainly be easy after the 4th spilt with the entire surface damaging you, I only said 4th but if you where going for a 5th 6th spilt the damage intensity of the platform would become more damaging.

So clearly it is lazy to think oh if there are no timers people would use the tankiest gear to get through it and as a developer should be able to come up with another solution than enrage timer.

actually if timer wasn’t there or much generous what would happen is a minimum number of nomad guardian/nomad anything that does damage passively+ some mix of tanky professions+ full cleric druid/ele and then the facerolling begins. Basically with enrage timer not meaning anything people will do some mechanics but most of them will resort to auto attacking until the boss is down.

It changes the fights from dealing much dps as possible to execute raid mechanics while using active defenses such as block, aegis, protection, dodge, heal, etc to prevent one from wiping to having any number of people perform raid mechanic while the majority sits and auto attacks hoping the boss dies and not resorting to use active defenses because the gear already covers all that.

Having enrage time and having people clear the raid with little to no passive defense is good. personally I wish gorseval’s slam attack would absorb protection and stability while one shotting those who didn’t dodge to emphasize the importance of dodging and endurance management.

Anet has stated they want rid of the max DPS only ideal. Problem is they are only enforcing it with raid timers. A pure DPS check achieves absolutely nothing. “oh look, I can DPS a wall down, I am so brilliant.” They need to put in a tactics requirement that actually needs people to move, dodge and think – timers do not achieve that.

Why not Champions that do proportionately massive damage to weakly armored toons rather than timers? Why not allow people to take in whatever armor they want and be able to achieve?

Obviously you and some others in this thread are being very selfish. You want it all your way. Being in an elite minority obviously means a lot to you. Go get a life.

I’m not saying make it easy, what I am saying is change the ethos. This is the first boss of the first wing of the first raid, it should be difficult, but putting a timer on everything just turns it into a DPS race.

As pointed out a million times before, if it wasn’t a dps race you could stack nomads classes and breeze through the bosses.

Also, VG and sabetha are NOT dps checks, you can clear them EASILY with >1-2 mins left on the timer.

randomguy.1283:

Serious.6940:

TheFamster.7806:

Astaral.8635:

I do not think this is the case where you could run 10 Nomads Hammer guardians. With Gorseval you would lose cause of the limited updrafts and Sabetha the stress of keeping the platform up would eventually get your group killed cause 15-20 mins of that would just take one small misstep to make a group fail. Really only Vg would be viable with the way it is now but if they did like I said the fight would most certainly be easy after the 4th spilt with the entire surface damaging you, I only said 4th but if you where going for a 5th 6th spilt the damage intensity of the platform would become more damaging.

So clearly it is lazy to think oh if there are no timers people would use the tankiest gear to get through it and as a developer should be able to come up with another solution than enrage timer.

actually if timer wasn’t there or much generous what would happen is a minimum number of nomad guardian/nomad anything that does damage passively+ some mix of tanky professions+ full cleric druid/ele and then the facerolling begins. Basically with enrage timer not meaning anything people will do some mechanics but most of them will resort to auto attacking until the boss is down.

It changes the fights from dealing much dps as possible to execute raid mechanics while using active defenses such as block, aegis, protection, dodge, heal, etc to prevent one from wiping to having any number of people perform raid mechanic while the majority sits and auto attacks hoping the boss dies and not resorting to use active defenses because the gear already covers all that.

Having enrage time and having people clear the raid with little to no passive defense is good. personally I wish gorseval’s slam attack would absorb protection and stability while one shotting those who didn’t dodge to emphasize the importance of dodging and endurance management.

Anet has stated they want rid of the max DPS only ideal. Problem is they are only enforcing it with raid timers. A pure DPS check achieves absolutely nothing. “oh look, I can DPS a wall down, I am so brilliant.” They need to put in a tactics requirement that actually needs people to move, dodge and think – timers do not achieve that.

Why not Champions that do proportionately massive damage to weakly armored toons rather than timers? Why not allow people to take in whatever armor they want and be able to achieve?

Obviously you and some others in this thread are being very selfish. You want it all your way. Being in an elite minority obviously means a lot to you. Go get a life.

I’m not saying make it easy, what I am saying is change the ethos. This is the first boss of the first wing of the first raid, it should be difficult, but putting a timer on everything just turns it into a DPS race.

As pointed out a million times before, if it wasn’t a dps race you could stack nomads classes and breeze through the bosses.

Also, VG and sabetha are NOT dps checks, you can clear them EASILY with >1-2 mins left on the timer.

It’s easy to die on the last phase for both because you can’t see stuff (and sometimes though very rare, the flame wall bugs out and is invisible).

Amineo.8951:

randomguy.1283:

Serious.6940:

TheFamster.7806:

Astaral.8635:

I do not think this is the case where you could run 10 Nomads Hammer guardians. With Gorseval you would lose cause of the limited updrafts and Sabetha the stress of keeping the platform up would eventually get your group killed cause 15-20 mins of that would just take one small misstep to make a group fail. Really only Vg would be viable with the way it is now but if they did like I said the fight would most certainly be easy after the 4th spilt with the entire surface damaging you, I only said 4th but if you where going for a 5th 6th spilt the damage intensity of the platform would become more damaging.

So clearly it is lazy to think oh if there are no timers people would use the tankiest gear to get through it and as a developer should be able to come up with another solution than enrage timer.

actually if timer wasn’t there or much generous what would happen is a minimum number of nomad guardian/nomad anything that does damage passively+ some mix of tanky professions+ full cleric druid/ele and then the facerolling begins. Basically with enrage timer not meaning anything people will do some mechanics but most of them will resort to auto attacking until the boss is down.

It changes the fights from dealing much dps as possible to execute raid mechanics while using active defenses such as block, aegis, protection, dodge, heal, etc to prevent one from wiping to having any number of people perform raid mechanic while the majority sits and auto attacks hoping the boss dies and not resorting to use active defenses because the gear already covers all that.

Having enrage time and having people clear the raid with little to no passive defense is good. personally I wish gorseval’s slam attack would absorb protection and stability while one shotting those who didn’t dodge to emphasize the importance of dodging and endurance management.

Anet has stated they want rid of the max DPS only ideal. Problem is they are only enforcing it with raid timers. A pure DPS check achieves absolutely nothing. “oh look, I can DPS a wall down, I am so brilliant.” They need to put in a tactics requirement that actually needs people to move, dodge and think – timers do not achieve that.

Why not Champions that do proportionately massive damage to weakly armored toons rather than timers? Why not allow people to take in whatever armor they want and be able to achieve?

Obviously you and some others in this thread are being very selfish. You want it all your way. Being in an elite minority obviously means a lot to you. Go get a life.

I’m not saying make it easy, what I am saying is change the ethos. This is the first boss of the first wing of the first raid, it should be difficult, but putting a timer on everything just turns it into a DPS race.

As pointed out a million times before, if it wasn’t a dps race you could stack nomads classes and breeze through the bosses.

Also, VG and sabetha are NOT dps checks, you can clear them EASILY with >1-2 mins left on the timer.

It’s easy to die on the last phase for both because you can’t see stuff (and sometimes though very rare, the flame wall bugs out and is invisible).

Yes, and this really needs to be fixed. Not sure what this has to do with timers though.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

If that’s the truth, the timer is not necessary.

Incorrect, the timer requires you to take squishier builds which then make wiping to the mechanics more likely. If there are no timers and everyone takes Nomads then the green circle on VG becomes irrelevant (still shocked you haven’t picked this up).

The timer forces you to confront the mechanics because you are not all tanks.

I said “if that’s the truth”, didn’t i? And that was the bladex’s whole point – if without the timer boss mechanics can be made irrelevent by taking a different build, then those are some very bad and lazy boss mechanics, and the timer exists only to conceal that fact. Mechanics should be the difficulty, not the timer.

But then of course majority of raiders would not be able to clear them.

The timer and mechanics are balanced together, why aren’t you understanding this?

I am actually surprised people even notice the timers.

I mean come on, Are you that concerned about your dailies or something to even be looking at that section of the screen?

I would argue that you could remove the visual timer and it would become MORE difficult.
In the case of Vale guardian, given that the other 2 bosses have mechanics that will kill you regardless. What does he do? at approximately 8 min into the fight he think you are all to tanky and are sissies? so he ups his damage output???

You are all kittening and moaning about a little clock up in the corner of your screen. If you are downing him/them before enrage why do you even care? If you are Dying to the Enrage, or Lack of updrafts, or the platform disintegrating.
I think there is something far more important for you to be looking at Vs a tiny clock.

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

If that’s the truth, the timer is not necessary.

Incorrect, the timer requires you to take squishier builds which then make wiping to the mechanics more likely. If there are no timers and everyone takes Nomads then the green circle on VG becomes irrelevant (still shocked you haven’t picked this up).

The timer forces you to confront the mechanics because you are not all tanks.

I said “if that’s the truth”, didn’t i? And that was the bladex’s whole point – if without the timer boss mechanics can be made irrelevent by taking a different build, then those are some very bad and lazy boss mechanics, and the timer exists only to conceal that fact. Mechanics should be the difficulty, not the timer.

But then of course majority of raiders would not be able to clear them.

The timer and mechanics are balanced together, why aren’t you understanding this?

Because there are better ways of requiring DPS without a gimmicky timer. Why aren’t you understanding this?

Ertrak.9506:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

If that’s the truth, the timer is not necessary.

Incorrect, the timer requires you to take squishier builds which then make wiping to the mechanics more likely. If there are no timers and everyone takes Nomads then the green circle on VG becomes irrelevant (still shocked you haven’t picked this up).

The timer forces you to confront the mechanics because you are not all tanks.

I said “if that’s the truth”, didn’t i? And that was the bladex’s whole point – if without the timer boss mechanics can be made irrelevent by taking a different build, then those are some very bad and lazy boss mechanics, and the timer exists only to conceal that fact. Mechanics should be the difficulty, not the timer.

But then of course majority of raiders would not be able to clear them.

The timer and mechanics are balanced together, why aren’t you understanding this?

Because there are better ways of requiring DPS without a gimmicky timer. Why aren’t you understanding this?

On you go, thrill us.

I’ve already stated how I’ve seen in other games. Short burn-phases to change phase or DPS vs the Boss’s DPS on specific phase(s) are ways i’ve seen. A timer for the whole kill itself is just…not creative and lazy. Also incorporating burst DPS into PvE would neat too.

Ertrak.9506:

I’ve already stated how I’ve seen in other games. Short burn-phases to change phase or DPS vs the Boss’s DPS on specific phase(s) are ways i’ve seen. A timer for the whole kill itself is just…not creative and lazy. Also incorporating burst DPS into PvE would neat too.

So, just to check, your solution is chopping up the timer into little timers?

Timers only really affect the difficulty the first few runs as people try to understand mechanics. After the first few clears, there should no reason to hit the timer any more as it is mostly irrelevant as shown by the low man raid videos.

I stand by my point that timers are there to prevent laziness/avoidance of mechanics rather than increase difficulty. Sure there’s some difficulty increase (since you have to do the mechanics somewhat properly) but it’s not the main point of the timer and the difficulty increase is minimal in this wing as mechanics are far more punishing than the timer.

Also, I’d rather have a good and clear timer to know when stuff happens because of the lack of DPS meters

enrage timers are there so that you cannot run 2 healers with 2 support tanks with 6 warrior unkillable setup. By not using enrage timers it would actually be limiting for designing encounters because it would force every fight to have mini enrage timers (updrafts and so on) in every fight. Or 8 tempests with -40% prot, -10% frost nova, -10% dmg food and 2 Revenants spamming Dwarf elite, THOSE ELES ARE IMMUNE TO DAMAGE!

Sure if you have nice way of creating encounter without hard enrage. Like constantly spawning exponentially more and more seekers that eventually you would get overwhelmed if you don’t kill boss fast enough.

Sabull.5670:

Sure if you have nice way of creating encounter without hard enrage. Like constantly spawning exponentially more and more seekers that eventually you would get overwhelmed if you don’t kill boss fast enough.

Yer these soft enrage mechanics are fine, they are just another form of timer.

Ertrak.9506:

Because there are better ways of requiring DPS without a gimmicky timer.

Bullkitten

Ertrak.9506:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

bladex.9502:

Malediktus.9250:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

This. Timers are a must have or people could find a way cheese the bosses or to solo this 10 man content.

If you are able to solo it when the timer isn’t there, doesn’t that say something about the bosses themself?
I agree that the timers are a lazy way to make the fights somewhat challenging, because without them a lot of pressure of having to DPS goes away, and the bosses will be on about the same difficulty level of a veteran in Queensdale.
I’d rather have seen Anet give the bosses actual challenging mechanics instead of some boring DPS check

Have you even done the raids? It sure seems like you haven’t.
General percentage of wipes to boss mechanics: 99%
General percentage of wipes to enrage timer: 0.01%

If that’s the truth, the timer is not necessary.

Incorrect, the timer requires you to take squishier builds which then make wiping to the mechanics more likely. If there are no timers and everyone takes Nomads then the green circle on VG becomes irrelevant (still shocked you haven’t picked this up).

The timer forces you to confront the mechanics because you are not all tanks.

I said “if that’s the truth”, didn’t i? And that was the bladex’s whole point – if without the timer boss mechanics can be made irrelevent by taking a different build, then those are some very bad and lazy boss mechanics, and the timer exists only to conceal that fact. Mechanics should be the difficulty, not the timer.

But then of course majority of raiders would not be able to clear them.

The timer and mechanics are balanced together, why aren’t you understanding this?

Because there are better ways of requiring DPS without a gimmicky timer. Why aren’t you understanding this?

Let’s take your example of Gorseval.

Let’s say he has no timer, he stops his CC phase by himself and you can’t use portals on the ground to avoid his wide AOE. (Since these would be abused without a timer)

This means instead of having a VISIBLE timer all the time everything is based on timed attacks and the only phase that “stops” that timer is the charged souls phase.

So in other words. Every phase except the charged souls phases would be TIMED dps checks.

All you would achieve with that is that you no longer have a timer on the HUD and that you have a “pause” phase (in case you have enough CC). Why do you need that?

Ertrak.9506:

I’ve already stated how I’ve seen in other games. Short burn-phases to change phase or DPS vs the Boss’s DPS on specific phase(s) are ways i’ve seen. A timer for the whole kill itself is just…not creative and lazy. Also incorporating burst DPS into PvE would neat too.

And as others have pointed out, all you do is chop up the timer instead of actually working around it.

Please come up with a serious solution and not just timer semantics.

Your current “solution” is just as lazy as the timers you complain about.

Here is my suggestion, remove the timer but increase the boss damage by 500% after the same amount of time. Problem solved for 90% of the complaining people in this thread since it seems most don’t even understand how basic boss design works.

randomguy.1283:

Again, saying timers are a lazy boss mechanic is like saying driving to work is a lazy way to get there because its an easy solution to a simple problem.

Well, driving to work is a lazy way to get there, isn’kitten It’s just nobody cares, because getting to work is not supposed to be challenging.

randomguy.1283:

As pointed out a million times before, if it wasn’t a dps race you could stack nomads classes and breeze through the bosses.

Again, if boss mechanics allow for that, those are some really bad mechanics.