Guild Wars 2

Yes but the same cant be said about the rules defined in the unrestricted ruleset. I remember argueing for the same timing rules along with a few others. But because most people wanted to use restricted they decided to make the opposite so unrestricted that it had absolutely no potential for competition. Basically those of us who cared about unrestricted didnt exactly get the category we wanted.

Out of curiosity, what was the difference in the timing rules? The link to the unrestricted ruleset on gw2scr is broken.

hybrid.5027:

The community approval of the restricted ruleset was nearly unanimous and the popularity is quite well proven. That’s all that really matters.

I wonder why the use of this sigil seems fine to so many when other things have been banned that fit similar situations.

I’m just curious, in the end doesn’t matter to me

Any start time you decided was valid as long as it was before a major event was triggered (path select for example). So you could go unlock waypoints in arah and then start the time when you have the group ready to portal the path select guy up to lupi doors (arah p3). This was the reason the restricted ruleset was created and had its timing rules revised. It was changed so that the timer starts at the beginning of the instance so you cant prepare waypoints and do jumping puzzles beforehand etc. But people decided to not implement it on the unrestricted ruleset at the same time. And I still cannot understand why.

Looking back on it. It seems the main reason for the restricted ruleset being created was just because of arah p3 and arah p4 (along with some amusing harpy feather spam by LoD). The timer change should of been enough to improve the competition. But we will never know for sure. :P

I remember that discussion and agree with spoj. Timer starting when you move was one of the best changes to the rule set. Before that change, I remember some people ignorantly defending the timer starting from the event activation, then got schooled when some guilds completed arah p2 in like 3 nanoseconds lol proving it was a flawed system.

Not having the timer start the same way in unrestriced makes no sense.

With the transfer of gwscr, maybe it is time to revisit a lot of these rules.

Even tho I was not around or active when the discussion about the ruleset was made, I agree that having the same starting rules/restrictions in both categories would be beneficial. Would make things a lot easier/more interesting.

should ban lupi wall oneshot. as long as its allowed arah records dont make any sense.

Honestly, I have always felt that the best ruleset is the one that minimizes the barrier to entry and maximizes competition. What good is a ruleset if no one uses it and there’s no one to compete with? Jumping puzzles in speed clears create a huge barrier to entry due to the number of things you have to suddenly be aware of outside the realm of normal dungeon content, and limits participation because a lot of people find it shady. If we allowed those sorts of things, you’d get a few people doing it, a lot of people NOT doing it, and no one new starting to do it. It would be a dead format, as is already shown by the unrestricted format we have now. Even if we fixed the timing issues, the same would apply.

The restricted ruleset we have now is great with a few exceptions. I think “no minipets” is overzealous, for instance, and even if someone did use it with Runes of the Ranger who cares. I feel like Sigil of Paralyzation falls into the same category. It’s an option that requires a sacrifice to take, and serves a very specific role which may or may not even be the optimal strategy. It doesn’t matter if it’s unintended or not in this case because it neither heightens the barrier to entry nor does it reduce the number of people participating in the format.

Things I think the restricted format does right include banning gem store consumables (allowing them would create a huge dollar and/or huger gold cost barrier to entry) and banning unintended pathing glitches or jumping puzzles in runs (huge barrier to entry and a lot of people hate it so vehemently that allowing it would reduce participation a lot). I don’t think it’s perfect, but I do think it’s better than any current alternatives.

The thing with jumping puzzles is that you have to show how they are done in the record. That removes some of the barrier to entry as they can be copied from the videos. And there are a lot of really simply easy small ones. Like arah p3 over the wall at hunter crusher. And then theres ones which dont even go out of bounds of the map like the CoE doors and TA fw archer door.

Also the thing with records. I dont get why people would refuse to do something because a tactic involves something they hate. The whole idea of records is to play to win. You can avoid your 1 shotting of lupi and cheesy skips in your casual runs. The fun from a record comes from beating the previous record and going as fast as you can. The tactics used barely cross my mind in terms of enjoyment. Especially as even the most interesting tactics become boring after 5 hours of attempts. But the actual push for perfection is what keeps you going and makes it fun.

and why is it fun if cheesy kitten is allowed and no skill required?
the release of raid content will be a rough awakening for many players in the speedrun community.

I think Rising makes a good point for restricted runs. But, It’s simply dumbing things down to create more competition.

Why shouldn’t jumping puzzles be allowed? Well because it rules out a whole bunch of people who simply suck at jumping puzzles, or rules out people unwilling to restart a run because they screw it up. I can easily see where people would call it dumb or unfun, but it’s in the same regard as the PHIW crowd look at the meta stuff now.

Its a competition. If you dont want to put the effort into being the best you dont deserve to win. If jumping puzzles were a requirement to win then i see no problem. If you look for excuses and call things lame then i dont consider you much different from PHIW’s. Its hypocritical no matter how justified you may be in saying something is lame. We are not showcasing skill, we are showcasing speed. Even if skill does come into it its not like we should go slower just to show off more skill. Thats something you would do for challenges not speedruns.

I think the biggest issue folks have with jumping puzzles are when they are used to bypass bosses completely (Arah p3/p4). Things like jumping over doors with a mesmer to portal your team to the next event faster aren’t as problematic (my two cents, anyway), since all of the content is still being completed — it just saves some running time.

dreams wouldn’t it be great if ArenaNet just made bosses required for dungeon completion?

Crazy, I know

NoTrigger.8396:

should ban lupi wall oneshot. as long as its allowed arah records dont make any sense.

Any reason for that? Pushing lupi to the wall takes more time than the 5 seconds phase transition you MIGHT save.

spoj.9672:

Its a competition. If you dont want to put the effort into being the best you dont deserve to win. .

agree. and this is why things that allow even bad players to be part of the competition and have a chance to win should be forbidden.

fast and clean lupicus kills were a major break point in arah speedruns. now even 3 year olds can perform clean kills. thats why i consider stuff like lupi wall oneshots lame.
if you allow that kitten you automatically take away everything from speedruns that makes the difference between average, good and great players/groups.

I don’t think people will refuse to do a tactic they hate in their runs, spoj, but I do think people will simply not play that format at all if it allows tactics that they deem cheesy or lame. Even if they do get a faster time, it isn’t satisfying to them because they feel cheap, and so they simply don’t run at all. That diminishes the community, and is a very real concern we shouldn’t treat cheaply.

The thing about jumping puzzles is we know ANet considers them exploits. If you use them and sell a path, they will ban you, and they’ve fixed pathing exploits innumerable since the game’s release. Additionally, they’re liable to fix the remaining ones at any given time should they become widely known/used. That would create a huge annoyance for the GW2 speedclearing community because then we’d have to have a meta reset for a dungeon any time a jumping skip was closed. In lieu of those issues, I really don’t think there should be any doubt about keeping jumping puzzles in speedclears disallowed.

I think for issues that are more nebulous, or are simply a clever use of mechanics that trivializes content or does something potentially unexpected, I lean more towards keeping them allowed. If ANet outright says “doing X is an exploit and we’re going to fix it”, then I think we can ban them from speedclears safely.

NoTrigger.8396:

spoj.9672:

Its a competition. If you dont want to put the effort into being the best you dont deserve to win. .

agree. and this is why things that allow even bad players to be part of the competition and have a chance to win should be forbidden.

fast and clean lupicus kills were a major break point in arah speedruns. now even 3 year olds can perform clean kills. thats why i consider stuff like lupi wall oneshots lame.
if you allow that kitten you automatically take away everything from speedruns that makes the difference between average, good and great players/groups.

That’s a possible 15 seconds save for extremely bad players but a 5-10 second loss for good players. I don’t even see it being used in any serious speedrun and if, just to get a safe kill done and not to go for the quickest time possible. You’ve got two elementalists which both hit for more damage in the open, just like the thief – even on moving targets.

Well people were still submitting records before the rulesets changed and there was still some really cheesy stuff going on. Things only got changed because it suddenly went out of hand with harpy feathers and intentionally bugging p3 ritual. Ironically those few weeks before the rules got changed were the most active and competitive weeks weve ever had. Isnt that kind of funny?

And i dont see people boycotting records while its pretty clear they dislike 1 shotting lupi.

Dub.1273:

That’s a possible 15 seconds save for extremely bad players but a 5-10 second loss for good players. I don’t even see it being used in any serious speedrun and if, just to get a safe kill done and not to go for the quickest time possible. You’ve got two elementalists which both hit for more damage in the open, just like the thief – even on moving targets.

without a mesmer? k

NoTrigger.8396:

the release of raid content will be a rough awakening for many players in the speedrun community.

Kop tek

Rising Dusk.2408:

I don’t think people will refuse to do a tactic they hate in their runs, spoj, but I do think people will simply not play that format at all if it allows tactics that they deem cheesy or lame. Even if they do get a faster time, it isn’t satisfying to them because they feel cheap, and so they simply don’t run at all. That diminishes the community, and is a very real concern we shouldn’t treat cheaply.

The thing about jumping puzzles is we know ANet considers them exploits. If you use them and sell a path, they will ban you, and they’ve fixed pathing exploits innumerable since the game’s release. Additionally, they’re liable to fix the remaining ones at any given time should they become widely known/used. That would create a huge annoyance for the GW2 speedclearing community because then we’d have to have a meta reset for a dungeon any time a jumping skip was closed. In lieu of those issues, I really don’t think there should be any doubt about keeping jumping puzzles in speedclears disallowed.

I think for issues that are more nebulous, or are simply a clever use of mechanics that trivializes content or does something potentially unexpected, I lean more towards keeping them allowed. If ANet outright says “doing X is an exploit and we’re going to fix it”, then I think we can ban them from speedclears safely.

I know one dev had someone how him the Lupi WOR thing and said it was unintended and they would look into. Granted it was within a guild that the dev plays with and not publically on the forums but either way it was labeled an exploit. Yet… it’s allowed.

The idea that these rules are to prevent exploits I think is wrong. The fact that we’re even discussing this sigil is proof of that. The point of the rules is simply to create a playing field where people can eliminate what they feel cheapens the experience.

I think you hit it spot on in your last post, it’s just simply that the mentality is not much different than the PHIW mentality. “You can’t do this because it’s dumb/cheapens the experience/an exploit”.

I don’t think we should use the rules to prevent exploits, I just think that once something becomes clearly marked as one there is a much higher probability that it will be fixed, and thus the community has to reset the meta for wherever the exploit applied. Things like sigil of paralyzation, walling GL, or minipets are all low impact and even if they were fixed wouldn’t throw a wrench in current runs, so I don’t consider them really worth considering for a ban.

I do still think what I said in my last post, though—The rules should reflect what the participants in the ruleset want to see in order to encourage participation and encourage new players trying it out. I think there should be a limit, though, and that wildly banning anything some people find lame is more harm than good. Where the balance resides is, of course, the matter we’re discussing.

Since the records are getting a new home, now would be a good time to revisit the unrestricted ruleset – and I don’t think anyone would have a problem with adding in the start time requirement as a universal rule.

NoTrigger.8396:

Dub.1273:

That’s a possible 15 seconds save for extremely bad players but a 5-10 second loss for good players. I don’t even see it being used in any serious speedrun and if, just to get a safe kill done and not to go for the quickest time possible. You’ve got two elementalists which both hit for more damage in the open, just like the thief – even on moving targets.

without a mesmer? k

You’d need a guardian anyway?!?

Dub.1273:

NoTrigger.8396:

Dub.1273:

That’s a possible 15 seconds save for extremely bad players but a 5-10 second loss for good players. I don’t even see it being used in any serious speedrun and if, just to get a safe kill done and not to go for the quickest time possible. You’ve got two elementalists which both hit for more damage in the open, just like the thief – even on moving targets.

without a mesmer? k

You’d need a guardian anyway?!?

warrior “Magically” appearing on top of the wall and traiting for blocks reflect Kappa…..oh wait, this is not twitch

Minigrump.4961:

Dub.1273:

NoTrigger.8396:

Dub.1273:

That’s a possible 15 seconds save for extremely bad players but a 5-10 second loss for good players. I don’t even see it being used in any serious speedrun and if, just to get a safe kill done and not to go for the quickest time possible. You’ve got two elementalists which both hit for more damage in the open, just like the thief – even on moving targets.

without a mesmer? k

You’d need a guardian anyway?!?

warrior “Magically” appearing on top of the wall and traiting for blocks reflect Kappa…..oh wait, this is not twitch

Thats not what he means.

NoTrigger.8396:

should ban lupi wall oneshot. as long as its allowed arah records dont make any sense.

As for the 1-shotting being allowed in records… top kek at any guild that actually uses it in a record. Personally I’d be too humiliated to do something like that; it’d be equivalent to saying that Lupicus is too hard and that we’re giving up.

Plus as Dub said, it actually doesn’t save any time. It’s faster to burst him in the middle and use a mesmer’s feedback for it.

Purple Miku.7032:

As for the 1-shotting being allowed in records… top kek at any guild that actually uses it in a record. Personally I’d be too humiliated to do something like that; it’d be equivalent to saying that Lupicus is too hard and that we’re giving up.

Plus as Dub said, it actually doesn’t save any time. It’s faster to burst him in the middle and use a mesmer’s feedback for it.

SC’s p3 was actually pretty interesting. Solid mesmer reflect kill but also their bloopers accidently going over to phase 3 with too much damage.

Here is the thing. I wouldn’t mind seeing no-rule speedruns with everything allowed, like its the norm in other games. On the other hand, I can understand when people don’t want to watch these and if they ask for rules. But if you start adding rules, then be consequent kitten . I mean seriously, look at this topic. We allow to oneshoot Lupicus but we need a discussion if we allow the use of a signet that allows to interrupt him.

If you want rules, okay. But then do it right and ban everything that’s clearly unintended design.

I’ts the same with the first trash skip in path 3. “Yeah,” said the dev one day. “We’ll put a few mobs there and a door that closes and only opens if the mobs are dead OR if you dont select the path right away, go there with the open path window, stack infront of the door, use stealth and then select your path. That souds like good design, right?”
I don’t see a difference between this and jumping over terrain to skip bosses, sorry, I just don’t. And if we are okay with this, we should be okay with a lot more things. And as I said I dont think thats a bad idea, as long as we are consistent in our choices.

Molch.2078:

Here is the thing. I wouldn’t mind seeing no-rule speedruns with everything allowed, like its the norm in other games.

We had that. It was a complete failure.

Just FYI if you want to do a run like that and record it you’re free to. Keep Running did it several times.

You do not seem to have much knowledge about what was going on at gwscr.
Saying an unrestricted ruleset failed is quite meaningless when the first setup that required videos has been a split between restricted/unrestricted. Restricted records added to the guild leaderboard, unrestricted didn’t. Restricted records got to be “accepted” on reddit, unrestricted not. It isn’t the ruleset or how fun or unfun one was that decided what would have been done. It were the circumstances on how these would be handled.

Either way, thinking about it, +1 to molch. While forbidding stuff like that is just cryhard, it makes no sense having some “exploits” allowed and some declined in the “restricted” ruleset.

All this would be much simpler if we had active devs. :/

hybrid.5027:

Molch.2078:

Here is the thing. I wouldn’t mind seeing no-rule speedruns with everything allowed, like its the norm in other games.

We had that. It was a complete failure.

Just FYI if you want to do a run like that and record it you’re free to. Keep Running did it several times.

The reason for its failure was the stupid timer rules. It wasnt the exploits used. Remember when people started fully glitching arah p3? Yeah it was kind of lame. But it was funny and it was probably the most active competition weve ever had.

And i agree with Molch and Dub on this. Its stupidly inconsistent. But rather than asking for consistency and causing everything to be banned and ruining it further id rather just have inconsistant semi cheesed runs (what we have now). Still the ideal for me would be consistant and fun no rules. The only rules id agree with are no gemstore items and consumables because obviously not everyone has executioner axes (except rT).

I could live with executioner’s axe being allowed. Would get so many professions from terrible to almost viable!

Jerus.4350:

Purple Miku.7032:

As for the 1-shotting being allowed in records… top kek at any guild that actually uses it in a record. Personally I’d be too humiliated to do something like that; it’d be equivalent to saying that Lupicus is too hard and that we’re giving up.

Plus as Dub said, it actually doesn’t save any time. It’s faster to burst him in the middle and use a mesmer’s feedback for it.

SC’s p3 was actually pretty interesting. Solid mesmer reflect kill but also their bloopers accidently going over to phase 3 with too much damage.

Eh, I honestly have no idea why so many people mention being impressed by this as if it’s much of an achievement to nearly burst him from phase 2. Phase 3 skips aren’t new and they’ve been done plenty of times before, and they didn’t even manage it that time. I don’t see what’s interesting personally :P

spoj.9672:

Remember when people started fully glitching arah p3?

I’m sure he remembers it so well it was almost like he was there.

oh…

;D

Since most people that post her didn’t participate in the last speedclear meeting i gonna try to explain why the wall trick didn’t get banned. To make it easy it was simply not possible to find anything in it that clearly clarifys it as an exploit. I agreee with all of you that it shouldn’t be used and is lame, but in general the entire thing follows game mechanics (reflecting a projectile, placing a wall on an object), although it is not intended by anet

Purple Miku.7032:

Jerus.4350:

Purple Miku.7032:

As for the 1-shotting being allowed in records… top kek at any guild that actually uses it in a record. Personally I’d be too humiliated to do something like that; it’d be equivalent to saying that Lupicus is too hard and that we’re giving up.

Plus as Dub said, it actually doesn’t save any time. It’s faster to burst him in the middle and use a mesmer’s feedback for it.

SC’s p3 was actually pretty interesting. Solid mesmer reflect kill but also their bloopers accidently going over to phase 3 with too much damage.

Eh, I honestly have no idea why so many people mention being impressed by this as if it’s much of an achievement to nearly burst him from phase 2. Phase 3 skips aren’t new and they’ve been done plenty of times before, and they didn’t even manage it that time. I don’t see what’s interesting personally :P

I guess it looked impressive, due to the fact that Lupicus kills in the records right before that one where done with the “exploit”. But we haven’t seen a “perfect” Lupicus kill in a record run since the ferocity patch afaik, so thats still sth you can achieve.

spoj.9672:

The reason for its failure was the stupid timer rules. It wasnt the exploits used. Remember when people started fully glitching arah p3? Yeah it was kind of lame. But it was funny and it was probably the most active competition weve ever had.

the competition was the most active after the restricted ruleset was done.

spoj.9672:

Still the ideal for me would be consistant and fun no rules. The only rules id agree with are no gemstore items and consumables because obviously not everyone has executioner axes (except rT).

k

NoTrigger.8396:

spoj.9672:

The reason for its failure was the stupid timer rules. It wasnt the exploits used. Remember when people started fully glitching arah p3? Yeah it was kind of lame. But it was funny and it was probably the most active competition weve ever had.

the competition was the most active after the restricted ruleset was done.

Long term activity maybe. But in the short term no. There was a huge surge of records right before the restricted ruleset. The rulesets were introduced because most of those records involved tactics that people deemed cheesy so a bunch of people complained. And the biggest reason for complaints was things like doing the jumping puzzle in arah, unlocking waypoints before starting the timer or having inconsistant start points for each path.

The timer rule was pretty stupid before and the new timing rules fixed all of those issues on their own. I still maintain the opinion that the only necessary change was the timer. Because that change would’ve cut out most of the jumping anyway apart from the small ones.

the reason why most of the people use the restricted ruleset when doing their records is more than obvious. if people wanted to jump around like clowns and use exploits instead of skill we would have more unrestricted records today.
the only thing you can earn with unrestricted runs is even more disrespect from the gw2 community for the speedrun scene.
and i dont think i need to mention that every pug will watch your videos and copy paste exploits and then feel cool about it.

what will people do once we get content which is even halfway challenging and cheese/exploits dont work? cry the content is too hard?
in other games people call you out and insult you if you exploit during progression and other kitten because people have self-respect and want a competitive scene.

You dont know that. Because like ive said several times already. The timer rules were not changed for unrestricted. That was the biggest problem before we changed the rulesets. So please dont assume it was the exploits that were the main reason. You have no proof.

Besides i really dont give a crap what the average player thinks. When i speedrun i do it for the competition and the only people i care about seeing it are those who also compete. Its not a spectator sport.

a meeting was held. people decided about the rules and people made restricted rules. thats enough proof. the interest in restricted runs is/was obviously bigger. you cannot deny that. the amount of restricted records is all we need to look at.

if you want unrestricted runs to become a thing then organize a meeting, change the timer, and see how it turns out. gl with that.

spoj.9672:

Besides i really dont give a crap what the average player thinks.

how can you be so sure that people give a crap about what you think?
and how do you know that you arent an average player?

arrogance is not going to help you or anyone else.

Purple Miku.7032:

Jerus.4350:

Purple Miku.7032:

As for the 1-shotting being allowed in records… top kek at any guild that actually uses it in a record. Personally I’d be too humiliated to do something like that; it’d be equivalent to saying that Lupicus is too hard and that we’re giving up.

Plus as Dub said, it actually doesn’t save any time. It’s faster to burst him in the middle and use a mesmer’s feedback for it.

SC’s p3 was actually pretty interesting. Solid mesmer reflect kill but also their bloopers accidently going over to phase 3 with too much damage.

Eh, I honestly have no idea why so many people mention being impressed by this as if it’s much of an achievement to nearly burst him from phase 2. Phase 3 skips aren’t new and they’ve been done plenty of times before, and they didn’t even manage it that time. I don’t see what’s interesting personally :P

That they simply accidentally skipped phase2 in the bloopers was the impressive thing. The other was just refreshing more than impressive.

Molch.2078:

Here is the thing. I wouldn’t mind seeing no-rule speedruns with everything allowed, like its the norm in other games. On the other hand, I can understand when people don’t want to watch these and if they ask for rules. But if you start adding rules, then be consequent kitten . I mean seriously, look at this topic. We allow to oneshoot Lupicus but we need a discussion if we allow the use of a signet that allows to interrupt him.

If you want rules, okay. But then do it right and ban everything that’s clearly unintended design.

I’ts the same with the first trash skip in path 3. “Yeah,” said the dev one day. “We’ll put a few mobs there and a door that closes and only opens if the mobs are dead OR if you dont select the path right away, go there with the open path window, stack infront of the door, use stealth and then select your path. That souds like good design, right?”
I don’t see a difference between this and jumping over terrain to skip bosses, sorry, I just don’t. And if we are okay with this, we should be okay with a lot more things. And as I said I dont think thats a bad idea, as long as we are consistent in our choices.

^^ Great post. Exploits don’t seem to be so black and white. People seem to be willing to accept some things that are unintended but not others.

NoTrigger.8396:

a meeting was held. people decided about the rules and people made restricted rules. thats enough proof. the interest in restricted runs is/was obviously bigger. you cannot deny that. the amount of restricted records is all we need to look at.

if you want unrestricted runs to become a thing then organize a meeting, change the timer, and see how it turns out. gl with that.

spoj.9672:

Besides i really dont give a crap what the average player thinks.

how can you be so sure that people give a crap about what you think?
and how do you know that you arent an average player?

arrogance is not going to help you or anyone else.

Thats not proof. Unrestricted did have some interest but it never took off because of the timer rule. I feel like im talking to a brick wall. Obviously there was a preference for restricted. But if we had just introduced a ban on gemstore stuff and changed the timer rule i bet the result would of been the same. There were a few french guilds that did unrestricted but it never took off because of the timer and the split rulesets. You dont know for sure what would of happened because we didnt even get a chance to test the waters with just a small change.

ps. Trying to insult me doesnt exactly do your arguement any good.

if thats “trying to insult you” for you, the internet is the wrong place for you.
you dont give a crap about what other people think, other people dont give a crap about what you think.
you think other players are average players, other people think you are an average player.
simple as that.

as i said, organize a meeting for unrestricted stuff if you feel everyone else shares your opinion and see how it turns out.

Notrigger, you might want to read my post. I’ve actually been one of the few people who has already been active on gwscr when all those things came up.

As for spoj being arrogant, lolwat?

Gee, looks like someone’s feeling a little hostile since transferring to NA after getting booted.