The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Hello there,

I have some ideas about future Dungeons development that I’d like to post here.

Now I won’t be talking about skipping, balancing, exploiting or need for build and gear diversity. I’m here to simply present you my vision how this part of PvE content could be developed, to, in my view, please almost everyone.

Only Story Mode Dungeons (Part I) are needed for “Dungeon Master” title

To start off, I decided to divide my look at the dungeons and proposal in 6 parts.

Part I: Story Dungeons


: Basic dungeons, focused on story-telling. Current Story Mode merged with the most important story-wise Explorable paths. Each Dungeon would have >2 bonus paths (like explorable now). Current paths which lack too much story should be given more of it.


: Accessible for everyone, in any group composition, pure fun. All Story Dungeons would be rescaled to match more variety of levels. Currently, there are no dungeons untill level 30 and in my opinion, it’s a mistake. Make basic Utilities all unlock (without elite, reserved for lvl 30) up to level 15 (5,10,15).
Rescale the dungeons so you can access first ones at level 15 (AC story probably). New “Bonus Paths” (Explorable previously) would unlock after completing the main story one after every couple of levels (Let’s take AC again. You complete the story at lvl 15, then the first path unlocks at 17, second at 20 and third on 23. Then on lvl 25 CM story unlocks etc. etc.).
That should give the better feeling of the “Living” world. You end the story and then you don’t abadon and forget about the dungeon, instead you frequently return there to complete various new tasks you’re called for.


: Rather easy, suited for newcomers, but providing some fun challange. Story dungeons should be designed to not only interest the player in the story, but also introduce them to PvE mechanics and dungeoning, provide some help. Players are accompanied by NPCs who frequently make suggestions, give advices and somehow explain the mechanics :

-NPC: “This ground looks very unsteady. We should better make sure we don’t fall” -> Tooltip pops out, informing the group that getting some stability or stunbreakers would be a good idea.
-NPC:“This guy seems big. He should be slow, we’re quicker, let’s strike him from behind!” -> Tooltip pops out, suggesting avoiding big telegraphed hits and striking on mob’s back, maybe equipping some swiftness for better mobility.
-NPC:“Hmm… See this aura around him? I bet it’s nasty, I wouldn’t risk touching it” ->Tooltip pops out, informing about possible projectile reflection/risky melee.

Players should be also taught about basic tactics of bosses, telegraphed attacks, usefulness of various utilities, movement or such. These things would help them greatly in future dungeoning.


~ 30 minutes up to 1 hour for newcomers.


- Good equipment box for current level, materials for crafting, special recipes, trophy/recognition in Home Instance. Major extra rewards for completing the Dungeon/Path on Hero’s Call


Most important among all dungeoning options, main focus

Part II – Explorable Dungeons


: This is a new form of the Dungeon. It’s exactly what you expect – the exploration. Remaining, less story related and important explorable paths are included in here. The whole area of the entire dungeon is open for all of you, no scripts. There are various Dynamic Events going on in the area (mentioned E.Paths are DEs activated by speaking with NPCs), lots of mobs, NPCs, Bosses. There are also Explorator’s Chests – chests that randomly spawn all over the dungeon. Some of them are guarded by mobs, some are in strange places, some need keys acquired by doing DEs, slaying specific mobs or such.

Tasks, outside of old explorables, mobs, bosses and chests are higly randomized in all explorable dungeons. Spawn locations, NPCs and even mob types differ on every enter

There’s also the counter, similar to one from Escape from Lion’s Arch Rescue counter.
Every mob slain, every chest found, every Boss slaughtered and every DE done give you certain amount of points. It’s something like a Vanquish from GW1


- Scaled for level 80. Accessible for a party with at least one member (“The Opener”), who has finished all Story in the dungeon (Bonus paths included).

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469


- Explorable Mode is a 80-only which means that AI you spot in here will use anything avalible, cooperate and fight dynamically with movement, focus – everything to kill your party. Tasks and mobs in the explorable area would differ when it comes to tactics, difficulty. The further from the entrace you venture, the harder it gets.


- It’s up to you and your group. You can go there just for 20 minutes, do something, get out and get your rewards or you can stay there, complete every task, find every chest and kill every mob and spend half a day ^^ Type of hardcore farm zone you can venture to any time you want.


- Area is not small, as are rewards. Since you’re grouped in 5 and mobs are not easy, loot tables are improved compared to Open World areas. There are specific “Zone drops” from bosses and chests/mobs, unique stuff that is mostly tradeable.
But the main reward comes from mentioned counter of your total points acquired during the dungeon. Your total amount of points have influence on amount and quality of rewards you get. That reward is acquired upon leaving the dungeon and it nicely prevents you from getting nothing if you DC or such.
Ending rewards include unique items, exotics, high-end materials, lootbags, tokens, trophies you can achieve for your Home Instance, gold.


Least important and visible in here of all dungeoning options. You could find it via exploring like maybe some side NPCs, memorial items or such.

Part III: Boss Instances


Don’t look at it as on raids. It’s not this type of content.
These are 5-man instances where your main goal is the boss in the centre room.
There’re no side-mobs, just maybe a pack before the boss room to warm-up. The dungeon finishes after you slay the boss and counts towards daily/monthly achievements.
Thw whole idea was inspired by one of GW1:Nightfall missions: http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rilohn_Refuge_%28mission%29
and the part about the pumps + great opportunity for skilled groups.

So we have that boss, standing in non-exploitable room (very important!), preferably oval. What’s the deal?
Boss itself has plethora of various abilities, buffs, debuffs and specifics, effects in it’s disposal. AI is programmed to dynamically change attacks, behaviours and randomize them during the fight, while most important are very telegraphed to prevent players from using one tactic and “learning” the fight, more likely encouraging them to stay focused on the boss.

But Boss itself, once you enter the dungeon has various, hardcore, overpowered (you call it) advantages. It may be tons of adds, permanent debuffs in the area, health regeneration, fast hard-hitting attacks, immunities or other very nasty things.
It’s still perfectly doable, though, but only for experts, best PvE players who are not only prepared in terms of gear, coordinated utilities and play, but also self and team skill, situational awarness, mechanics understanding and those who have mastered their professions
For more less extreme players, however, there are options to disable each of these specific “overpowered” advantages. From the corridor before Boss’ location, there are couple paths leading to various, rather quick tasks. Completing each of these disable particular said “advantages” of the boss.
Your group doesn’t have to disable them all. These “advantages” vary, so you can turn off only most problematic mechanics for your party, but you can disable them all.
Examples of “advantages” and their side quests:
a)Boss converts every boon into condition in the room every 3 seconds.
-Side-quest: Free some guy who can “purify” the room from the effect.

b)The boss is accompanied by numerous adds.
-Side quest: Obtain canoonballs to shot from the canoon and kill the adds

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

(edited by Rym.1469)

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469


Boss Instances need to be unlocked. It can be done via completing dungeons, personal story, living story, other progression like collecting keys or such.
Once unlocked, they’re always avalible with quick waypoints nearby.
Boss Instances are only avalible for players above level 70 (access to GM traits level)


As stated in “General” – Boss under all effects is very difficult, even for skilled groups. It recudes when you disable them, but he’s not trivial after that, he stays at the difficulty level of Lupicus, with various behaviours, attacks and active AI.


This is the main point of this dungeon type. It’s purely Time/Effort design. It can either take ~7-10 minutes if you are able to kill the boss with all it’s “advantages” or more if you decide to complete side quests. Each side quest shouldn’t take more than 5-7 minutes.


As said above, the design is Time/Effort. Your reward is a measure of group skill, it’s always the same (not inlcuding loot from mobs in side-quests though) loot at the end of the dungeon. The rewards may include various unique (both account-bound and tradeable) skins, materials or such, like Boss minipets. Potential for various Achievements in here.


Preferably plot “finishers” in here. Bigger versions of it could be the answer to main story fights like future Dragons or such. Not much of stand-alone story

Part IV: Fractals of the Mists
GeneralFractals of the Mists are already in game with their own systems and scalling. And I don’t want to change it, in general. But I want to add more story.
Everything except of Story stays the same

StoryI would really like to see more fractals with actual story of Tyria. Similar to Bonus Missions Pack from GW1, we could „unlock” story fractals and add them to rotation. They could be unlocked by literally anything Anet desires – Karma, reward items…. Some examples: -„The Great Tsunami” -„Fall of Abbadon” -„The Arrival of Tengu” -„The Creation of the Brand”

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

(edited by Rym.1469)

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Part V: Elite Missions


This is the „high end” 10-man content, only for the best prepared groups.

Players start every mission as two separated 5-man groups and have to complete first objectives in certain time frame. Then they’re grouped up into 10-man and progres in the instance.


Level 80 only. Accessible similar to other dungeons, without pre-events.


It’s meant to be elite content. All group-shared boons apply in 2000 range and affect up to 10 players, but their duration is 50% shorter. Doesn’t apply to boons applied by yourself to your character.

What can I say. These dungeons could be called „elite only”. Cooperative AI, most mechanically advanced. Think of mix of Domain of Anguish pre-nerf with hardcore raiding, add dynamic combat and multiply it by 2. Needles to mention, hardest possible PvE content in-game.


~Greatly varies. I’d say about 1,5h for best groups. Saveable progres.


Gems, gold, ascended equipment, Chance for precursors, unique account bound skins, unique achievements, titles and specific dungeon armor/weapons acquired by tokens at the end of the dungeon (!). If done with at least 50% of the group being represented guild members, boosting influence and providing extras, like free banners, upgrades, bank money.

Multiple trophies/upgrades for home instance and future guild halls.


Story of these dungeons would be important. Elite Missions themselves wouldn’t be a part of main plot, but branches of that, side-stories with most dangerous enemies of Tyria.

Sometimes knowledge of lore could be required to complete Missions.

Part VI: Journal


It’s a mini, hand-wiki for the player. I feel that it’s very needed, especially for new players and returning ones. Not only it summarizes the basic game aspects and definitions, but is also a:

-Lorebook

-Bestiary

-Calendar/Organizer

-Personal Story summary with possible access to at least most important content/cutscenes with a click

-Living Story summary with possible access to at least most important content/cutscenes with a click


It’s your personal journal. Only Personal Story is character-bound, everything else is account-wide. It evloves with your gameplay.

You’ve finished some dungeon? Cool, you get short summary of it with a graphic and some text.

You’ve encountered new monster? You get short, new descreption about new mob

You’ve explored new zone? Something about it goes to your Journal

It’s everything you need for the game and to pic kup the game again and not get lost. If you have missed some parts of the Living World and want to get some knowledge, visit Bards, Storytellers in inns around.

It also includes Calendar, allowing you to set reminders of bosses coming up, what you want to do in the game and just generaly serves as a organizer


It should be easily accessible from UI.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

(edited by Rym.1469)

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Challanges


Now that’s a thing. If you have ever played the new „Thief” game you will quickly catch my point.

Once you enter one of the following:

-Boss Instance

-Exploration Mode

-Elite Missions

You’ll spot a NPC who offers you to challange yourself and your group.

These are dungeon „modifiers” – let’s say you’ve already „mastered” the content or you feel like you can handle way more. Or you’re just greedy for good rewards.

You can choose between many options which will influence your experience in dungeon greatly and let you suit the difficulty to you.


Challanges may very from dungeon to dungeon, but there are some basic ones:

1. „One Way Ticket” – Once defeated, members of your party cannot be resurrected again.

2. „Quick Demise” – Once downed, members of your party are instantly defeated

3. „Mirrored Assault” – Every X seconds, your party are attacked by mirrored Doppelgangers of your party.

4. „Tough Trinity” – Complete Dungeon in no more than 3 players.

5. „Insatiable Hatred” –Every NPC (aside from story-required) is hostile

6. “Slow Suffering”- Your party is permanently Crippled and gain one stack of Torment for every 3 seconds of constant movement.

7. “Last Man Standing” –Complete X as a single player in the dungeon.

Keep in mind that these are basic and there’s a huge potential.


Challenges may greatly increase you rewards. Every Challenge picked increases your drop chances for every type of items, including rare, unique drops and dungeon specific, gold and gems.

Every Challenge gives you certain amount of Glory points, along with points acquired from finishing dungeon itself.

You and your party will be classified on Glory Leaderboards for each dungeon and total Glory Leaderboards.

Not to mention, you’ll also get specific Achievements, titles and trophies for your home instance/guild halls.

Opportunities


Opportunities are the opposite of Challanges.
These are little advantages your party can choose in the Dungeon to not make it trivial or such, but get some help or buff for an adequate cost in rewards and glory.

Examples can be:

1. “You are never alone!” – Strong NPC accompany your group, providing support and damage.
2. “Morale Boost” – All your party statistics are 110% of normal value when under this Opportunity.
3. “One for All, All for One” – Your party ressurections are 20% quicker.
4. “Pain Absorbtion” – Every time one of the party members drops below 50% of health, all the incoming damage is spreaded among whole party. 60 sec ICD.

That would be it for today. Feedback welcomed!

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

(edited by Rym.1469)

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: sternenstaub.8763

sternenstaub.8763

Hi Rym,

Thank you for sharing this idea!

I think most of these ideas have potential, but will require a lot of development time. On top of that, the current system makes it difficult to balance the dungeons the way you seem fit, as they have to be playable with all kinds of setups. If I go into a dungeon with 2 Necros, a Ranger and 2 Thiefs it has to work as well as when I go into the dungeon with 4 Warriors and 1 Guardian. Here I see the current PvE Problems and future PvE problems, which is most likely also the reason why we haven’t seen any kind of this content yet. The lately released traits will give most classes more viable roles (at least in theory) and are most likely a preface to introduce future dungeons/PvE like you imagine.

Sadly, this whole overwork will also require very good and deep AI/Scripting, which I haven’t seen yet done by ANET or any other MMO company for that matter. It is one thing to create complex scripts for a fixed setup like the trinity even with different classes, but something completely different to adjust AI/Scripting dynamically to existing user roles and classes. A random script might work, but again would need to target the weakest link. I don’t even want to begin imagining the time the testing would have to spend with this whole rework. Most likely when testing has finished, all classes already have been changed severely

What I’d like to say is, I bet the designers at ANET would love to give us players this much and even more epic PvE, but it’s nothing that can be done in a month or two. I hope and actually guess they are working on parts of this, but even 2 years after release there are still basic problems with class diversity and balance of stats/roles etc. that have to be solved before implementing a system like this.

(edited by sternenstaub.8763)

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Thanks for reply!

As I state, I don’t consider these things implemented in the game even in any future. I said that I’m not going into specific fixes, exploiting issues or designing specific dungeons, since:

1)It’d take too much time for a single person like me
2)Would be probably ignored
3)Would be probably unbalanced due to single person view
4)Something that’s already written and published with all the names, tactics or such will never make into actual game.

Parts 1&2&6 would be fairly easy to implement compared to the rest since it uses existing content (Challanges are similar to Gambles, we already have leaderboards, Dungeon maps are already there, waiting to be filled, current Dungeons can be rescaled as we saw).

My goal was to present how the content can be splitted to match every kind of player, from a newbie to hardcore PvE raider.

Having levels of difficulty you can min/max, which don’t punish you for being less skilled in terms of rewards, but reward you the same, while the reward for more dedicated groups are leaderboards, vanity items and saved time.

I fear that with current design neither new players or veterans are and will be pleased with content.

Many of players have never really experienced story of the game, are bored with stale content and look up at ANet to provide more and more.

Journal is adressed to involve you more in the game rather than searching theInternet for any actual info or story. It encourages ypu to sink into the world, reminds you all the things that you’ve done.

Story Dungeons are the first stage and should be fun, primarly. There’s no need for players to be slaughtered on every corner just to know the story.
Explorables are the refreshing experience of the same dungeon, actually, but it’s not stale because it’s content that You design and set your own goals.
Boss Instances are a very good way to introduce said “big bosses” – It can be hard or accessible for everyone, it’s up to you.

Elite Missions are simply the source of achievement, the proof and glory in the world and every single game, especially MMO has to have that goal for those who are really dedicated. Leaderboards even spice it up, preventing content from getting stale.

I know that all of this would take a lot of time, testing (which especially if we split up the story and set the hardest challanges without spoilers like I did – could be put on Public Tests) but, in my view, once they’re done with China, they have to adress some issues.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: LordByron.8369

LordByron.8369

@OP
do you want a fractured 2.0?

I’d better have devs working on some AI for their istances so maybe they can give us some sort of challenging 5PlayersVS5CPU to start with….and then start designing more complex mechanics.

Also that work could be reused for PvP and mostly WWW guards etc.

GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Bread.7516

Bread.7516

Here’s an idea for dungeon bosses or mobs
AI scripting using states (and transition between them) so it wont just be an obvious playlist of skills + spamfest.

(edited by Bread.7516)

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Quickfoot Katana.8642

Quickfoot Katana.8642

Wondeful thread Rym. Unfortunately I think you have given more thought into dungeons than the whole Anet team ever since launch.

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Quickfoot Katana.8642

Quickfoot Katana.8642

Scrap that. I am 100% sure.

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

@OP
do you want a fractured 2.0?

I’d better have devs working on some AI for their istances so maybe they can give us some sort of challenging 5PlayersVS5CPU to start with….and then start designing more complex mechanics.

Also that work could be reused for PvP and mostly WWW guards etc.

Read my post again. I have never stated that proposed changed to dungeon system should be implemented in any timeframe, in fact, in post above yours I even said that I can’t see them coming in any close future.
If you did read my first posts, you would see that, especially when we talk about Boss Instanced, Explorables and Missions I highlight that AI would have to be improved and dynamic in there, so it’s kind of logical that implementation of such more advanced system (usable in other game aspects too!) should always be prioritized before considering my proposal

I’m also afraid that I don’t exactly get what do you mean talking about “Fractured 2.0”:

a)If you’re talking about Part IV, paragraph about FotM, I clearly state and highlight that I don’t want to change much in terms of gameplay. All I would like to see is maybe a little more focus on actual lore-related maps coming in future, that’s all

b)If you’re talking in general about changes to dungeoning – I’m can’t speak for you, but me and many of people I talk to are not really satisfied with current PvE Dungeon system, mechanics, difficulty, rewards and such. Some of them point out lacking story, some scripted design, some that they’re skilled and would like to face some challange in PvE, or it’s design is sometimes too hard. All I did is I’ve collected all these opinions and created maybe not improved, but different PvE dungeon system and posted it here.
Now talking about that patch itself – I’m not a hardcore Fractal runner, but I know some who are. I believe that the biggest missed opportunity with this patch were Instabilities. Currently, they’re designed by Developers themselves and not always match tastes of the party. The biggest letdown was imo creating these by the game and not the player. The player should decide what is he capable of, how difficult the content should be, how much effort he wants to put and what rewards to get. Maybe his party struggles with some Instability but would be okay with another? That’s what Challanges do – leave the decision to the player

There could be also opposites of Challanges if we want to. You can’t handle the content by yourself? Let’s give you some advantage in exchange for cost in Rewards and Glory, maybe give you some helpful NPCs or some buff. - See “Opportunities”

Who said that the content should be one, created in one/hard version and only?
The Player should decide

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

(edited by Rym.1469)

The Dungeons, The Fun and The Challange

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

28/04 Update – Added Opportunities (maybe not the best name, but meh :P )

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144