Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

I guess the community split is just too wide for us to even speak the same language.

I don’t know what you are on about.

Astralporing.1957:

NikeEU.7690:

I’m pretty sure it DOESNT solve the problem in other games. From my understanding from other games (DNT is a multi-game guild) most of the intro/easy mode raiders don’t matriculate up to harder difficulties.

True, but then that’s not the primary problem those difficulty modes are trying to solve (Rednik is indeed mistaken about that).

You even agreed that those who run intro/easy mode raids do not go to the higher difficulties and yet after that you are trying to prove otherwise. It’s simple, those who run the easy versions run those and won’t run the harder versions so following the initial argument (which you also said was mistaken) my initial assessment that

And adding a new difficulty won’t solve the “problem” of not finding groups for the normal/hard versions of the Raids.

is accurate. Why have we been going on and on with multiple posts since then?

Because its not accurate and not even slightly right? People from lower difficulties ARE main source of new blood for higher ones. I dunno, maybe in DnT new players are jumping out of thin air, geared, trained and ready to kill everything on highest difficulty straight away, but for everyone else new blood is coming from below, and even top-tier guilds are getting their members from less successful guilds with lower progress.
Yes, numbers of players who is moving from lower to higher difficulty is not very high, but sizes of player population on these difficulty levels are falling exponentially too, so for them that flow is very sizable.
Here is some reading for you.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1872614-Is-raiding-dying-A-statistical-analysis

Rednik.3809:

Here is some reading for you.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1872614-Is-raiding-dying-A-statistical-analysis

Will you stop. linking. stuff. about WoW here? I don’t know how many times we have to consistently tell you that the raiding between WoW and GW2 is so vastly different. Even the basic foundation is different from the get-go.

WoW is literally about raiding as the ONLY end-game for PvE, everything builds towards raiding, gear progression is built INTO raiding. The MAIN story is built into raiding!

GW2 has raiding as a single PvE end-game solution, not the only one, where cosmetic unlocks and Side-Stories that enhance the world of Tyria but are not required whatsoever.

I wouldn’t even say Apples and Oranges here, the difference is greater than that. So whenever you link the decay of WoW Raiding, the causes of that decay can’t be easily linked to GW2. It’s that simple, stop comparing and focus, you hurt your arguments each and every time you try to make a comparison to another raiding game. GW2 is just too different.

Astralporing.1957:

Remember, that you’re likely surrounding yourselves with people whose skill is way above average, which seem to significantly skew your perspective. Most new players struggle with t1 when they start playing fractals. Put them in t4 immediately, and they will get slaughtered (learning nothing in the process).

Yes, there are people that could do that. These people are likely already raiding, or could start at current difficulty mode with no problems. They are not for whom easy mode would be made.

Yes, for people that do not need it, the easy mode would be mostly useless. They are however not the only players in the game. You seem to keep forgetting that.

One could easily argue the opposite, that it’s your perspective that is skewed since you put very little emphasis on learning and improving through the methods that exist.

Ignoring the laughable perspective argument lets focus on the claims of a new player.

Raids are and Endgame content, they are not meant for new people. Fractals are also endgame content. If people struggle with fractals, that means they have not put enough time in to understand their classes strengths and weaknesses. They should (if we follow your logic) go play the open world or dungeons to actually gain the skills required. Once they have the basics no T1 or T2 fractal should ever be a “challenge” and the only bottleneck will occur in T3 where the skill ranges will vary between those who can do more but don’t have the AR and Those who have the AR but lack the minor mechanical necessities or foresight to bring the proper tools to succeed. Either way, those players still are not ready for endgame content.

See the problem ?

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t know what you are on about.

I meant that we seem to be speaking past each other. The things you claim as obvious are not only not obvious, but not not even true from where i look.

Astralporing.1957:

You even agreed that those who run intro/easy mode raids do not go to the higher difficulties and yet after that you are trying to prove otherwise.

I only agreed that many of the easy mode raiders in WoW do not feel the need to go to higher modes, because they are content to remain in easy one. I never said that noone does that (nor that the number that do is too small to matter).

Astralporing.1957:

It’s simple, those who run the easy versions run those and won’t run the harder versions so following the initial argument (which you also said was mistaken) my initial assessment that

And adding a new difficulty won’t solve the “problem” of not finding groups for the normal/hard versions of the Raids.

is accurate. Why have we been going on and on with multiple posts since then?

First, because i disagree from your assumption that it helps noone (most is not the same as all), and second, because you seem to think that it’s the only purpose of easy mode. Which it isn’t. Not by far.

TexZero.7910:

One could easily argue the opposite, that it’s your perspective that is skewed since you put very little emphasis on learning and improving through the methods that exist.

Possibly. Probably even. Of course, my sugestion does not exclude people from your group, while you seem to think that only yours is right, and others do not exist.

TexZero.7910:

Fractals are also endgame content. If people struggle with fractals, that means they have not put enough time in to understand their classes strengths and weaknesses. They should (if we follow your logic) go play the open world or dungeons to actually gain the skills required.

No. That would be following your logic. After all, Fractals do have a learning curve already built in.
Besides, Fractals are only endgame content in the sense that they are a content for groups of five level-capped people. The same, as, say, dungeons.

Remember, whole game is the endgame.

TexZero.7910:

Once they have the basics no T1 or T2 fractal should ever be a “challenge”

Again – you seem to have a completely different view of what constitutes the basics and what the average skill level is in the community.

TexZero.7910:

See the problem ?

Yes. The problem is the “hardcore endgame” mentality.

What are people arguing about in particular? I completely disagree that raids need an easy mode. Last night with my guild I defeated vale guardian and gorseval with little difficulty.

I had studied the bosses on wiki before joining and knew exactly what to do… They could barely tell I was new to the fight.

I arguably felt that vale guardian was too easy, but the comunity seems to feel otherwise.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

See the problem ?

Yes. The problem is the “hardcore endgame” mentality.

Remind me again what raids where shipped as again ….

Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, introduces the ultimate challenge: our first raid, which is made up of three distinct raid wings. Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat.

Src: https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/raids

So can you stop trying to change them from what they are into this casual dungeon stroll you want now ?

Anet never lied to you about the difficulty or what to expect.

Sykper.6583:

Will you stop. linking. stuff. about WoW here? I don’t know how many times we have to consistently tell you that the raiding between WoW and GW2 is so vastly different. Even the basic foundation is different from the get-go.

WoW is literally about raiding as the ONLY end-game for PvE, everything builds towards raiding, gear progression is built INTO raiding. The MAIN story is built into raiding!

GW2 has raiding as a single PvE end-game solution, not the only one, where cosmetic unlocks and Side-Stories that enhance the world of Tyria but are not required whatsoever.

I wouldn’t even say Apples and Oranges here, the difference is greater than that. So whenever you link the decay of WoW Raiding, the causes of that decay can’t be easily linked to GW2. It’s that simple, stop comparing and focus, you hurt your arguments each and every time you try to make a comparison to another raiding game. GW2 is just too different.

Yeah, raiding between WoW and GW2 is really so vastly different, because WoW is doing at least some stuff right, due to their experience and millions of players who gave them raiding statistics over years and years of the MMO raiding evolution.
But hey, lets ignore it, it’s not like gw2 raids have obvious design problems, gw2 community is split apart due to these problems, and gw2 raid devs are trying to pretend that now is 2007 instead of 2017, right?

Rednik.3809:

Sykper.6583:

Will you stop. linking. stuff. about WoW here? I don’t know how many times we have to consistently tell you that the raiding between WoW and GW2 is so vastly different. Even the basic foundation is different from the get-go.

WoW is literally about raiding as the ONLY end-game for PvE, everything builds towards raiding, gear progression is built INTO raiding. The MAIN story is built into raiding!

GW2 has raiding as a single PvE end-game solution, not the only one, where cosmetic unlocks and Side-Stories that enhance the world of Tyria but are not required whatsoever.

I wouldn’t even say Apples and Oranges here, the difference is greater than that. So whenever you link the decay of WoW Raiding, the causes of that decay can’t be easily linked to GW2. It’s that simple, stop comparing and focus, you hurt your arguments each and every time you try to make a comparison to another raiding game. GW2 is just too different.

Yeah, raiding between WoW and GW2 is really so vastly different, because WoW is doing at least some stuff right, due to their experience and millions of players who gave them raiding statistics over years and years of the MMO raiding evolution.
But hey, lets ignore it, it’s not like gw2 raids have obvious design problems, gw2 community is split apart due to these problems, and gw2 raid devs are trying to pretend that now is 2007 instead of 2017, right?

And lets ignore that raids are the main content updates, since the release of the lastest expansion, WoW got two raids and nothing else for PvE players. Also they are part of the main story, something the Story/Raid teams don’t want for GW2.
Also the raid team in WoW is much bigger than GW2 with their 5 people.
Raids in GW2 are vastly different than the raids in WoW.

Care to tell some of the design problems?

Astralporing.1957:

First, because i disagree from your assumption that it helps noone (most is not the same as all), and second, because you seem to think that it’s the only purpose of easy mode. Which it isn’t. Not by far.

I never, ever, said that it’s the only purpose of easy mode. I was ONLY contesting the point that an easy mode will lead to more players to the normal/hard versions and that still stands. A player that wants to enter hardcore content doesn’t need an easy version of that specific content to begin their journey, they can become “good” players by playing any other type of content of intermediate difficulty. And that’s the purpose of that in-between content in the first place, the stepping stone for the higher difficulty.

Rednik.3809:

Because its not accurate and not even slightly right?

A player who went to T4 Fractals doesn’t need to train for the newer Fractals. I have serious doubts that any T4 player ever needed to play Chaos or Nightmare on lower difficulties to “Train” for the T4 version, they are already good enough, by reaching T4 in the first place, to run any T4 fractal that will be released in the future. There is a reason the challenge mote for the Nightmare fractal is only available at level 100 and you can’t “train” for it at lower levels, it’s supposed to be run by already expert Fractal players.

Let’s imagine a game with 20 Raids. A group of players plays the first one in the line in some form of easy mode. They get good at it, playing well together, forming great teamwork, using amazing builds and then go to the higher difficulty and beat it. Provided that in this game all future Raids will be of similar difficulty to the first one, that’s because it has no vertical progression, no new tiers of gear, nor new level caps, for the other 19 Raids they won’t go to their respective easy modes but go directly to the higher difficulty, they no longer need the training wheels.

That “initial” Raid can either be indeed a Raid encounter, or the content that is the precursor to Raids, namely in this game T4 Fractals. 2 competent groups of T4 fractal runners combined, shouldn’t have any problem clearing any Raid.

Miellyn.6847:

And lets ignore that raids are the main content updates, since the release of the lastest expansion, WoW got two raids and nothing else for PvE players. Also they are part of the main story, something the Story/Raid teams don’t want for GW2.
Also the raid team in WoW is much bigger than GW2 with their 5 people.

And they will stay that way if devs will continue to flush their resources to narrow such audience, because you cannot make something meaningful that way. It will not pay off. WoW devs understood that many years ago, dropped “raids are not for everyone” design into the thrash and keeping their title of #1 raiding game for 12 years.
That experience means something, don’t you think?

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

First, because i disagree from your assumption that it helps noone (most is not the same as all), and second, because you seem to think that it’s the only purpose of easy mode. Which it isn’t. Not by far.

I never, ever, said that it’s the only purpose of easy mode. I was ONLY contesting the point that an easy mode will lead to more players to the normal/hard versions and that still stands.

As i said, “most” is not all. There will be players graduating to hard mode that way. Perhaps not the majority of those that will attempt easy mode, but they will exist. And that will lead to getting more players into normal/hard mode.

maddoctor.2738:

A player that wants to enter hardcore content doesn’t need an easy version of that specific content to begin their journey, they can become “good” players by playing any other type of content of intermediate difficulty.

It’s not binary. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone reacts the same way you do.

There are players that learn better under pressure – for those, throwing them on deep waters of raids is better. There are however players that learn better when they can do it slower, on their own pace, without additional pressure. For those, easy mode would be better.

The same is with fractals. There are definitely players that can start them straight at t4, and learn everything fine. You are likely basing your opinions from associating with this kind of people. There are, however, also players, that do need to learn mechanics slowly, going though tiers, from the easy t1 , through t2 and t3, up to the top difficulty. Among the players i happen to be friends with, those are a majority.
Your stance completely denies their existence however.

maddoctor.2738:

A player who went to T4 Fractals doesn’t need to train for the newer Fractals. I have serious doubts that any T4 player ever needed to play Chaos or Nightmare on lower difficulties to “Train” for the T4 version, they are already good enough, by reaching T4 in the first place, to run any T4 fractal that will be released in the future.

Since i know personally a lot of people like that, you are factually wrong here. You just happen to not associate with such players, i guess.

maddoctor.2738:

Let’s imagine a game with 20 Raids. A group of players plays the first one in the line in some form of easy mode. They get good at it, playing well together, forming great teamwork, using amazing builds and then go to the higher difficulty and beat it. Provided that in this game all future Raids will be of similar difficulty to the first one, that’s because it has no vertical progression, no new tiers of gear, nor new level caps, for the other 19 Raids they won’t go to their respective easy modes but go directly to the higher difficulty, they no longer need the training wheels.

That might be true for some (perhaps even most), but not necessarily true for all. Besides, not all raid encounters are equal, as you know.

Additionally, as i have mentioned, easy mode would have other (often more important) functions, and for that reason alone having more modes of all encounters should be considered.

Astralporing.1957:

Since i know personally a lot of people like that, you are factually wrong here. You just happen to not associate with such players, i guess.

You know players that were already running T4 Fractals (like old 100 Mai Trin) successfully and when Nightmare was released they went to kitten “train” for the mechanics? That’s really hard to imagine. Unless they went solo for the achievements I guess. A player who is running T4 doesn’t even need a group for T1, unless there is an encounter that requires a specific number of players.

That might be true for some (perhaps even most), but not necessarily true for all. Besides, not all raid encounters are equal, as you know.

Unlike WoW were Raid difficulty has ups and downs from what we’ve seen so far the overall Raid difficulty in GW2 doesn’t do that. Any group of 10 people who cleared Spirit Vale will have zero trouble clearing the Bastion, which is why there is this perception that it’s “easy”. So a training mode for Bastion is redundant, since everyone who goes to the Bastion would’ve already cleared Spirit Vale.

Additionally, as i have mentioned, easy mode would have other (often more important) functions, and for that reason alone having more modes of all encounters should be considered.

That’s irrelevant to what is being discussed here.

There are players that learn better under pressure – for those, throwing them on deep waters of raids is better. There are however players that learn better when they can do it slower, on their own pace, without additional pressure. For those, easy mode would be better.

Those players can learn on all the other content that exist in the game where there is no additional pressure.

maddoctor.2738:

Unlike WoW were Raid difficulty has ups and downs from what we’ve seen so far the overall Raid difficulty in GW2 doesn’t do that. Any group of 10 people who cleared Spirit Vale will have zero trouble clearing the Bastion, which is why there is this perception that it’s “easy”. So a training mode for Bastion is redundant, since everyone who goes to the Bastion would’ve already cleared Spirit Vale.

Additional difficulties are being requested for 2 major groups:
1. New players, because current situation for them is absolutely ridiculous – I’m already see 50+ LI requests not just for Sloth or even VG, but even for Escort (!). Getting a fresh blood into raiding, thing that must be done by itself via proper game design is absolutely failed here.
2. Pugs without proper static groups or guilds. Getting used to new encounter takes a few wipes if you are new to it, and for pugs that experience can be quite unpleasant.

Rednik.3809:

1. New players, because current situation for them is absolutely ridiculous – I’m already see 50+ LI requests not just for Sloth or even VG, but even for Escort (!). Getting a fresh blood into raiding, thing that must be done by itself via proper game design is absolutely failed here.

And how is an easy mode going to help with this? Or you expect this easy mode to award LI and other rewards same as normal mode? Then it’s simple, the LFG mentality will move on to kill proof requests, or the easy mode will also give kill proof for the normal version?

I’m genuinely curious as to how an easy mode can help with the current LI situation

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Since i know personally a lot of people like that, you are factually wrong here. You just happen to not associate with such players, i guess.

You know players that were already running T4 Fractals (like old 100 Mai Trin) successfully and when Nightmare was released they went to kitten “train” for the mechanics? That’s really hard to imagine.

Not the first tier, but t2 and t3? Definitely. It did happen. And that’s people that did old t4 easily, without any struggling.

maddoctor.2738:

Unlike WoW were Raid difficulty has ups and downs from what we’ve seen so far the overall Raid difficulty in GW2 doesn’t do that. Any group of 10 people who cleared Spirit Vale will have zero trouble clearing the Bastion, which is why there is this perception that it’s “easy”. So a training mode for Bastion is redundant, since everyone who goes to the Bastion would’ve already cleared Spirit Vale.

The first 2 bosses? Likely. Samarog? Possibly. Deimos? I definitely see how a training option would be useful here.

maddoctor.2738:

Additionally, as i have mentioned, easy mode would have other (often more important) functions, and for that reason alone having more modes of all encounters should be considered.

That’s irrelevant to what is being discussed here.

It’s relevant as long as you will keep saying that someone not needing easy mode for training purposes for all encounters means that easy mode for those ’superfluous" encounters is not necessary.

maddoctor.2738:

There are players that learn better under pressure – for those, throwing them on deep waters of raids is better. There are however players that learn better when they can do it slower, on their own pace, without additional pressure. For those, easy mode would be better.

Those players can learn on all the other content that exist in the game where there is no additional pressure.

There’s a difference between learning your class/playing in general, and learning the encounter. While the first is important, it can never fully replace the second.

You might as well say, that someone should learn on open world and golem and thus learn to beat Matthias with no problem, with no prior knowledge of said encounter.

It doesn’t work like that. There’s still a big gap here. And while some people can fill that gap attempting the encounter on normal/hard mode, others would do better if they could learn it first on easy.

Don’t deny them that possibility simply because you don’t need it.

Rednik.3809:

Miellyn.6847:

And lets ignore that raids are the main content updates, since the release of the lastest expansion, WoW got two raids and nothing else for PvE players. Also they are part of the main story, something the Story/Raid teams don’t want for GW2.
Also the raid team in WoW is much bigger than GW2 with their 5 people.

And they will stay that way if devs will continue to flush their resources to narrow such audience, because you cannot make something meaningful that way. It will not pay off. WoW devs understood that many years ago, dropped “raids are not for everyone” design into the thrash and keeping their title of #1 raiding game for 12 years.
That experience means something, don’t you think?

No, because GW2 is not raid centric and the devs don’t want it to be raid centric. They don’t want to progress the story in raids, just some loose lore. Raids are supposed to be a small niche area for people that enjoy a challenge.

Is that the main reason? People wanting raids to be meaningful in a game that never was intended to be raid centric? Turn it into a WoW copy with different combat?

And working with 5-6 people on raids while the live team is 120 people, it’s hardly flushing ressources…

Astralporing.1957:

Not the first tier, but t2 and t3? Definitely. It did happen. And that’s people that did old t4 easily, without any struggling.

Then it’s weird indeed. I thought the “Easy mode” of Raids would be T1 fractal difficulty and there has never been a discussion about T2 or T3. I’m curious if these friends of yours would “train” at T1 if T2 and T3 wasn’t available.

The first 2 bosses? Likely. Samarog? Possibly. Deimos? I definitely see how a training option would be useful here.

A team that can down Matthias, which is included in finishing Spirit Vale last I checked, shouldn’t have an issue with Deimos either. You know how to beat hard bosses.

It’s relevant as long as you will keep saying that someone not needing easy mode for training purposes for all encounters means that easy mode for those ’superfluous" encounters is not necessary.

There are other topics on the requirement of easy modes for other reasons. This one was about using it for training. Which wasn’t even the actual topic of the thread but oh well.

There’s a difference between learning your class/playing in general, and learning the encounter. While the first is important, it can never fully replace the second.

It actually can. Once you learn a really hard encounter and how to beat it, let’s say beating Matthias, further harder encounters can also be beaten, like Deimos. You already have the experience in countering hard bosses in general. You know how to react, you know how to deal with break bars, splits big damaging area of effect attacks, timing of mechanics and so on.

maddoctor.2738:

A team that can down Matthias, which is included in finishing Spirit Vale last I checked, shouldn’t have an issue with Deimos either. You know how to beat hard bosses.

Spirit Vale is the first wing of the Forsaken Thicket, Matthias is part of Salvation Pass.

Miellyn.6847:

maddoctor.2738:

A team that can down Matthias, which is included in finishing Spirit Vale last I checked, shouldn’t have an issue with Deimos either. You know how to beat hard bosses.

Spirit Vale is the first wing of the Forsaken Thicket, Matthias is part of Salvation Pass.

Doh. Of course Forsaken Thicket is the Raid, Spirit Vale is the Wing, thanks for correcting me.

maddoctor.2738:

And how is an easy mode going to help with this? Or you expect this easy mode to award LI and other rewards same as normal mode? Then it’s simple, the LFG mentality will move on to kill proof requests, or the easy mode will also give kill proof for the normal version?

I’m genuinely curious as to how an easy mode can help with the current LI situation

I expect this mode to award experience of encounter to majority of newcomers. GW2 encounters aren’t hard at all, and majority of those who got them on farm status aren’t possessing some outstandingly high skill. It’s just matter of experience and practice, which is heavily hindered by current “link pile of LI or gtfo” system.

Rednik.3809:

I expect this mode to award experience of encounter to majority of newcomers.

How is experience of the encounter going to help with the LI requirements?

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

And how is an easy mode going to help with this? Or you expect this easy mode to award LI and other rewards same as normal mode? Then it’s simple, the LFG mentality will move on to kill proof requests, or the easy mode will also give kill proof for the normal version?

I’m genuinely curious as to how an easy mode can help with the current LI situation

I expect this mode to award experience of encounter to majority of newcomers. GW2 encounters aren’t hard at all, and majority of those who got them on farm status aren’t possessing some outstandingly high skill. It’s just matter of experience and practice, which is heavily hindered by current “link pile of LI or gtfo” system.

Why do we need an easy mode again? Easy mode wouldn’t reward LI, so the only thing that it would accomplish is flushing down developer ressources, as you described it…

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Not the first tier, but t2 and t3? Definitely. It did happen. And that’s people that did old t4 easily, without any struggling.

Then it’s weird indeed. I thought the “Easy mode” of Raids would be T1 fractal difficulty and there has never been a discussion about T2 or T3.

I guess that would depend on whom you’d ask, but also on the encounter in question. “easy mode” for escort can’t really be anything but t1. Matthias, on the other hand, would likely end up much higher even after difficulty reduction (if you wanted to leave any worth for learning). Personally, i wouldn’t be against having the easier mode for the 2-3 hardest bosses be on the level of t4 nightmare (not CM, though).
(though i can see how someone might consider it too high still ;P)

maddoctor.2738:

I’m curious if these friends of yours would “train” at T1 if T2 and T3 wasn’t available.

That would depend on specific fractal, i think. And the effect would not be as good. Still, i believe we’d run each new fractal at least once at t1 then.

maddoctor.2738:

The first 2 bosses? Likely. Samarog? Possibly. Deimos? I definitely see how a training option would be useful here.

A team that can down Matthias, which is included in finishing Spirit Vale last I checked, shouldn’t have an issue with Deimos either. You know how to beat hard bosses.

Matthias is in Salvation Pass. Spirit Vale is VG, Gorse and Sabetha. People that finished SV had definitely lot of problems with Matthias (and likely at least some of them could also have used a bit of training it on easy mode).

maddoctor.2738:

There’s a difference between learning your class/playing in general, and learning the encounter. While the first is important, it can never fully replace the second.

It actually can. Once you learn a really hard encounter and how to beat it, let’s say beating Matthias, further harder encounters can also be beaten, like Deimos. You already have the experience in countering hard bosses in general. You know how to react, you know how to deal with break bars, splits big damaging area of effect attacks, timing of mechanics and so on.

Maybe so. It doesn’t mean training it first on easier mode could not be useful for many.

Miellyn.6847:

Why do we need an easy mode again? Easy mode wouldn’t reward LI, so the only thing that it would accomplish is flushing down developer ressources, as you described it…

Because people need raid experience and current system fails to deliver it? Lets see:
1. Pug runs. Effectively blocked by the LI barrier. Groups with low reqs are becoming more rare with every day passed.
2. Training runs. Rare by themselves, rarely covers all encounters, often full of completely unexperienced people so you are waiting for them to learn very raiding basics, every time.
3. Make your own group. Without raid experience usually leads to disastrous results, also not everyone is able to lead, ESPECIALLY without proper commanding and encounter experience.
4. Guilds for raids. Not everyone is ready to join a new guild for raiding, not everyone have a free guild slot, and guilds often have already established raid roster, so newcomer can be benched infinitely.
Ofc these methods are works to some extent, but even all together they are not enough, not even close. I was pleasantly surprised actually when I saw community making a training raid runs because that was pretty uncommon thing for other raiding games, and was unpleasantly surprised when developers not understood this as a very clear sign, when community is struggling to do the work that must be done by raid developers instead.

Astralporing.1957:

Matthias is in Salvation Pass. Spirit Vale is VG, Gorse and Sabetha. People that finished SV had definitely lot of problems with Matthias (and likely at least some of them could also have used a bit of training it on easy mode).

It was Matthias compared to Deimos, or Matthias compared to all other bosses of Forsaken Thicket, since he is the hardest boss of it.

Rednik.3809:

Because people need raid experience and current system fails to deliver it?

They don’t need raid experience to enter the Raid, they need LI.
See without an easy mode: “LF9M 50+ LI”
after the easy mode: “LF9M 50+ LI”
What did you accomplish?

Rednik.3809:

Miellyn.6847:

Why do we need an easy mode again? Easy mode wouldn’t reward LI, so the only thing that it would accomplish is flushing down developer ressources, as you described it…

Because people need raid experience and current system fails to deliver it? Lets see:
1. Pug runs. Effectively blocked by the LI barrier. Groups with low reqs are becoming more rare with every day passed.

How does a training mode that awards no LI would change that?

2. Training runs. Rare by themselves, rarely covers all encounters, often full of completely unexperienced people so you are waiting for them to learn very raiding basics, every time.

There are guilds dedicated to training runs, there are weekly raid traings announced on reddit, I don’t know about NA but the EU servers have more than enough training runs.

3. Make your own group. Without raid experience usually leads to disastrous results, also not everyone is able to lead, ESPECIALLY without proper commanding and encounter experience.

How is figuring out mechanics on your own a disastrous result? The groups before them did the same and wrote guides.

4. Guilds for raids. Not everyone is ready to join a new guild for raiding, not everyone have a free guild slot, and guilds often have already established raid roster, so newcomer can be benched infinitely.

Serious raid guilds that don’t need people for their rooster don’t recruit.

Ofc these methods are works to some extent, but even all together they are not enough, not even close. I was pleasantly surprised actually when I saw community making a training raid runs because that was pretty uncommon thing for other raiding games, and was unpleasantly surprised when developers not understood this as a very clear sign, when community is struggling to do the work that must be done by raid developers instead.

Other games have a gear thread mill that let you overgear the encounter, so you can just brute force it. Thats why training runs don’t happen. Equipment is more importent than experience.
The equivalent for LI requirements are item level requirements in WoW, even LFR is restricted by them.

And stop comparing GW2 with ‘other raiding games’. GW2 is not a game with raids as the main content. It is niche content for people that enjoy challenging content, developed by a small dev team (~5% of the live team).

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Matthias is in Salvation Pass. Spirit Vale is VG, Gorse and Sabetha. People that finished SV had definitely lot of problems with Matthias (and likely at least some of them could also have used a bit of training it on easy mode).

It was Matthias compared to Deimos, or Matthias compared to all other bosses of Forsaken Thicket, since he is the hardest boss of it.

Not sure what you’re asking about here (as you were the one that mentioned SV and compared it to Deimos).
Still, i believe that even the people that managed to down Matthias could generally use a training on Deimos. Remember, that even among raiders not that many have Matt on easy farm status. He’s the hardest boss of FT for a reason.
Generally, yes, some people are likely that good that after learning Matt they can attempt Deimos straight away and learn the encounter in relatively short time with no problem. Those people are likely so good they never needed any easy mode in the first place, and the suggestion is not addressed to them (on the contrary, they might be in ned of a hard mode, that is more challenging than the current one). I believe however, that they are a minority even among active raiders.

maddoctor.2738:

Rednik.3809:

Because people need raid experience and current system fails to deliver it?

They don’t need raid experience to enter the Raid, they need LI.
See without an easy mode: “LF9M 50+ LI”
after the easy mode: “LF9M 50+ LI”
What did you accomplish?

Create an increased number of people able to run easier raid encounters, but not having LI yet. Which means more grouping opportunities that have lesser requirements, without massively reduced chances of success.
(though, knowing human nature, it would likely end with those groups having their own requirements, based on some other factor – like, for example, guildhall decoration drops – that shows that players finished a number of bosses at least on easy mode :P)

This raid has been the biggest game design mistake anet has done in the last year.

And, since raid has been the only reason holding me in this game since hot release, for my perspective it has been a great mistake.

Let’s be clear, the raid and bosses look amazing, but the raid its so easy that, at the end of the day, it add nothing more than a boss (deimos) with some mobs before (the first 3 bosses) put there just to drop free LI for those who complained about raid till now.

Now from my perspective (static raid around 430LI so far) i’ve nothing against giving free LI to complainers.

I’ve always thought that bound legendary armor behind raid would have been dangerous for raid health.

In fact here we are, raid guilds waited 6 months to have 1 single boss and now we will have to wait till next xpac before seeing anything else AKA plenty of raiders will quit for lack of content.

While i get why anet made this (accomplish complainers) i don’t understand why anet has done it in this way.

Is it so hard to copy other games?

- Add some difficulty to the challenge modes (still too easy if compared to other wings) and made them repetable with a chance of getting some additional UNIQUE rewards with weekly reset and that’s all. The unique reward should be something not so big as legendary armor (otw complainers will start complain about challenge modes too) but it should be something enough satisfating to prize people for doing it (what about an infusion drop you can sell tp as ghostly?)

I’d like anet would remember than raids has been introduced in this game as a “challenge content”, lower the challenge of a raid under fotm (that is not exactly something hard or challenging xD) its really disappointing

Astralporing.1957:

Not sure what you’re asking about here (as you were the one that mentioned SV and compared it to Deimos).

I compared SV to Deimos by mistake you should’ve seen the posts under that one where I was corrected that the Raid is Forsaken Thicket and not Spirit Vale. Once you are at the point to down Matthias consistently you will figure it out. Preferably, do it before you even enter the Bastion. Only then you’ll understand and it’s apparently pointless to talk about it before you reach that point.

Create an increased number of people able to run easier raid encounters, but not having LI yet.

No matter how many more people run the easier version of the encounter, the LFG listing will still be “LF 50+ LI” meaning those players running the easy mode are still excluded from the normal version. So, how is that helping with finding a group that requires LI, that is, a group for the normal version of the Raid? That was the actual question, how are easier modes going to help pugs get into the normal raids.

maddoctor.2738:

I compared SV to Deimos by mistake you should’ve seen the posts under that one where I was corrected that the Raid is Forsaken Thicket and not Spirit Vale.

Yeah, saw that one, but only after i posted.

maddoctor.2738:

Once you are at the point to down Matthias consistently you will figure it out. Preferably, do it before you even enter the Bastion.

Why? the first 3 bosses are nowhere Matthias level, so killing him is hardly a requirement.

maddoctor.2738:

Only then you’ll understand and it’s apparently pointless to talk about it before you reach that point.

Maybe. Though, again, you seem to assume that people able to down Matthias will always also be able to do that consistently and easily. And that until they can do so, they shouldn’t even try to attempt Deimos.
Remember, many will never be able to reach that point, and yet they will still want to try new encounters.

Come to think, there’s no “required raid order”, so there’s no reason why someone should not start their raid experience with BoP vefore even attempting FT. With more raids, it will be even more visible. Thus, you can’t assume that people attempting boss Y will have boss X on farm status already, unless those two bosses are in the same raid wing.

maddoctor.2738:

No matter how many more people run the easier version of the encounter, the LFG listing will still be “LF 50+ LI” meaning those players running the easy mode are still excluded from the normal version. So, how is that helping with finding a group that requires LI, that is, a group for the normal version of the Raid? That was the actual question, how are easier modes going to help pugs get into the normal raids.

And i have answered it. With increased number of people that learned enough in easy mode that they probably can do the easiest normal mode bosses, but do not have enough LI to join the “pro” groups yet, more LFGs with lower requirements would inevitably appear. So, that one LFG would remain, but you’d have also “VG attempt, exp at easy mode required” ones. And those, if succesful, would supply LIs.

(i’m intentionally avoiding discussing here about whether LIs should be unique to normal mode or not)

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

I compared SV to Deimos by mistake you should’ve seen the posts under that one where I was corrected that the Raid is Forsaken Thicket and not Spirit Vale.

Yeah, saw that one, but only after i posted.

maddoctor.2738:

Once you are at the point to down Matthias consistently you will figure it out. Preferably, do it before you even enter the Bastion.

Why? the first 3 bosses are nowhere Matthias level, so killing him is hardly a requirement.

maddoctor.2738:

Only then you’ll understand and it’s apparently pointless to talk about it before you reach that point.

Maybe. Though, again, you seem to assume that people able to down Matthias will always also be able to do that consistently and easily. And that until they can do so, they shouldn’t even try to attempt Deimos.
Remember, many will never be able to reach that point, and yet they will still want to try new encounters.

Come to think, there’s no “required raid order”, so there’s no reason why someone should not start their raid experience with BoP vefore even attempting FT. With more raids, it will be even more visible. Thus, you can’t assume that people attempting boss Y will have boss X on farm status already, unless those two bosses are in the same raid wing.

maddoctor.2738:

No matter how many more people run the easier version of the encounter, the LFG listing will still be “LF 50+ LI” meaning those players running the easy mode are still excluded from the normal version. So, how is that helping with finding a group that requires LI, that is, a group for the normal version of the Raid? That was the actual question, how are easier modes going to help pugs get into the normal raids.

And i have answered it. With increased number of people that learned enough in easy mode that they probably can do the easiest normal mode bosses, but do not have enough LI to join the “pro” groups yet, more LFGs with lower requirements would inevitably appear. So, that one LFG would remain, but you’d have also “VG attempt, exp at easy mode required” ones. And those, if succesful, would supply LIs.

(i’m intentionally avoiding discussing here about whether LIs should be unique to normal mode or not)

So you are saying that with easy mode people without LI will open LFGs like “No LI req”.
So why they are not opening this groups now??? Thats make no sense at all.
Its because these people dont wanna deal with people without experience, and with easy mode these people will be still unexperienced for normal mode, so NOTHING CHANGED, easy mode didnt help at all. People will still not open these kind of LFG, because if they would they are already doing it. Case closed.

Miellyn.6847:

How does a training mode that awards no LI would change that?

By creating a playerbase that can run their own groups, and eventually force all that LI nonsense to cease. Just like WoW raid groups that are 99% asking only for kill experience and not for 300 kills in your armory.

Miellyn.6847:

There are guilds dedicated to training runs, there are weekly raid traings announced on reddit, I don’t know about NA but the EU servers have more than enough training runs.

How much is “more than enough” and how much of them are making 9/9 (13/13)?

How is figuring out mechanics on your own a disastrous result? The groups before them did the same and wrote guides.

How beating your head against a wall for hours without result is not a disaster? Well, dunno, for some reason I think it is. Groups mentioned by you were mostly guild groups or premades, with good voice coordination and determination. I’m not sure if you can realistically expect same result from a bunch of random unexperienced guys from LFG.

Miellyn.6847:

Serious raid guilds that don’t need people for their rooster don’t recruit.

I’m not talking about 5-6 “serious raid guilds” worldwide tho. You can expect that in any raiding guild.

Miellyn.6847:

Other games have a gear thread mill that let you overgear the encounter, so you can just brute force it. Thats why training runs don’t happen. Equipment is more importent than experience.
The equivalent for LI requirements are item level requirements in WoW, even LFR is restricted by them.

In GW2 this “outgear” level is already implemented, and proven by low-man kills and undergeared kills. As I said before, encounters are not that difficult and requirements are not tight at all, you need only experience.

Miellyn.6847:

And stop comparing GW2 with ‘other raiding games’. GW2 is not a game with raids as the main content. It is niche content for people that enjoy challenging content, developed by a small dev team (~5% of the live team).

So that means that we don’t need any improvements? This game is always needs more content, and keeping it out of reach for majority is a bad choice.

Astralporing.1957:

Why? the first 3 bosses are nowhere Matthias level, so killing him is hardly a requirement.

Only to understand why people call the new Raid easy. Once you reach the level of killing Matthias you’ll find out.

Come to think, there’s no "required raid order

Yeah just like there is no order in many other things which cause numerous serious problems when some players want to skip the difficulty curve. I’d say there is an order because it should be easier to find groups for the older Raids.

more LFGs with lower requirements would inevitably appear.

Why? There is no relation between the two because a player who finishes the easy mode won’t suddenly be accepted in a normal run. You think the “easy runner” will somewhat be more ready to start their own groups because of the easy mode? In that case why don’t we see non-LI requirement groups forming for Escort which doesn’t need an easy mode in the first place?

maddoctor.2738:

You think the “easy runner” will somewhat be more ready to start their own groups because of the easy mode?

Yes. People are far more likely to start the LFG (or join it), if they think they are experienced enough to do it (as opposed to whether they really are good enough). It’s a self-perception thing.

maddoctor.2738:

In that case why don’t we see non-LI requirement groups forming for Escort which doesn’t need an easy mode in the first place?

Not enough new players (that want to start raiding) that do not have their own static groups.

It’s a bit of a vicious circle. Not enough open LFGs that can end up in success, means less new people are looking for them. Means, the average veterancy level among puggers goes up, and with this the expactations (that form a basis for LFG reqs) also rise. Which, of course, means less new players joining, and so on, and so on.

I think A-Net is testing the player base that claims that GW needs easy mode raids.

Testing with the first boss of Bastion, its so easy that i cleared yesterday with a pug as a Zealot DH, 2 druids, eng, necro, half with 0 experience, just having fun playing. We were way past the enrage, i only noticed it because of the “donut attack” that basically does nothing, the boss dont even hit harder. We killed it in 25 mins, the enrage is 8 mins.

So if the players that want easy mode are not playing the new wing, A-Net probably will make the next raid without this super easy bosses because its a waste and wasting resource on an entire easy mode would be way worst.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes. People are far more likely to start the LFG (or join it), if they think they are experienced enough to do it (as opposed to whether they really are good enough). It’s a self-perception thing.

If this easy mode is supposed to help players without optimal builds to succeed in the content, then these same players won’t be of any use in the next tier of difficulty. In fact they will be a liability. Learning the wrong tactics and using the wrong builds can be more detrimental to a run than not knowing anything.

I think A-Net is testing the player base that claims that GW needs easy mode raids.

I guess we’ll find what those metrics show by how they design the next Raid, is it “worth” designing such easy bosses or not. Second boss is even easier than the first, in fact it’s easier than Escort which makes you think.

Rednik.3809:

How much is “more than enough” and how much of them are making 9/9 (13/13)?

You don’t need making 9/9 in the first place. You have to start with 1 boss, practice, master it and then you go on to the next boss. Depending on your own skill level this goes fast or slow. I’ve been in a guild quite a long time that was only able to kill VG, Escort & Gorse, so I ran those bosses with them from time to time and learned the other ones with them or in training runs with pugs. Once you know how one raid boss is “working”, you can easily study the others via streams and/or reading & watching guides. You don’t need to start from the beginning because you have a decent plan of raiding after your first kills.
In the end it’s not necessary to have a 9/9 or 13/13 guild. Use them as a stepping stone and move on if you feel uncomfortable or realize that this guild won’t make progress. It’s neither negative behavior nor anything else.

Rednik.3809:

I’m not talking about 5-6 “serious raid guilds” worldwide tho. You can expect that in any raiding guild.

There are still a lot of guilds recruiting that have no requirements besides a fully geared class and knowledge of the class mechanics. The threads are being pushed almost daily.

Rednik.3809:

By creating a playerbase that can run their own groups, and eventually force all that LI nonsense to cease. Just like WoW raid groups that are 99% asking only for kill experience and not for 300 kills in your armory.

And item level requirements way above or on par the items that drop.

How much is “more than enough” and how much of them are making 9/9 (13/13)?

You don’t need training on every boss. Basics are sufficient.

How beating your head against a wall for hours without result is not a disaster? Well, dunno, for some reason I think it is. Groups mentioned by you were mostly guild groups or premades, with good voice coordination and determination. I’m not sure if you can realistically expect same result from a bunch of random unexperienced guys from LFG.

Raids were never intended to be beaten by uncoordinated groups, there are fractals. If you beat your head against it for hours without any result you are just not ready for raids. If you can’t adapt or figure things out on your own it isn’t the content for you.

I’m not talking about 5-6 “serious raid guilds” worldwide tho. You can expect that in any raiding guild.

My guild gets a clear for every member every week if he has time, it depends on the social structures inside the guild.

So that means that we don’t need any improvements? This game is always needs more content, and keeping it out of reach for majority is a bad choice.

And slowing down content for another raid mode will increase it? The ressources are not there.

Your beloved WoW proved that a training mode doesn’t work, even Blizzard said it. An easy mode without over the top rewards doesn’t have long term motiviation. The current raids are easy enough, you said it yourself.

Miellyn.6847:

Your beloved WoW proved that a training mode doesn’t work, even Blizzard said it.

Nah. One dev privately mentioned his dislike of the way it got implemented. Which he did, by the way, only after he stopped working at Blizzard.
Apparently, Blizzard disagreed, because LFR is still there.

Astralporing.1957:

Miellyn.6847:

Your beloved WoW proved that a training mode doesn’t work, even Blizzard said it.

Nah. One dev privately mentioned his dislike of the way it got implemented. Which he did, by the way, only after he stopped working at Blizzard.
Apparently, Blizzard disagreed, because LFR is still there.

They released a statistic, that only around 7%-10% actually advanced from LFR. Thats definitely not enough to justify a one time adventure for people that are not the target audience.
They will never remove it because raids are the main content for WoW unlike GW2, where it is niche content for people that enjoy challenging content. ArenaNet said they don’t want it to be main content.

Miellyn.6847:

And item level requirements way above or on par the items that drop.

I have game opened right now, and requirements are starting from 860, while drops for normal mode are starting from 870.

You don’t need training on every boss. Basics are sufficient.

I’d like to see how knowledge of Trio will help you to kill Matthias, or Grose tactics will help you on Sab, and so on. For GW2 raids, without battle res mechanics and with a lot of oneshot or almost oneshot abilities, encounter experience is extremely important.

Raids were never intended to be beaten by uncoordinated groups, there are fractals. If you beat your head against it for hours without any result you are just not ready for raids. If you can’t adapt or figure things out on your own it isn’t the content for you.

Currently you can see a lot of runs where experienced people are able to beat a lot of bosses without or with very little coordination, simply due to experience. So, they are doing something impossible and unintended?

My guild gets a clear for every member every week if he has time, it depends on the social structures inside the guild.

Well, it’s nice to hear that. But are you seriously expecting that every guild, or even majority of them are doing, or able to do the same?

And slowing down content for another raid mode will increase it? The ressources are not there.

I’m not sure if some copypaste, changed numbers and nerfed loot tables demands a lot of work. Especially when in return anet can get increased raid auditory and satisfied customers. Is hiring +1 guy for that work will be too much to ask?

Your beloved WoW proved that a training mode doesn’t work, even Blizzard said it. An easy mode without over the top rewards doesn’t have long term motiviation. The current raids are easy enough, you said it yourself.

I guess you missed link I gave earlier, because actually that mode saved them a lot of raiding customers from dropping the game.

Miellyn.6847:

They released a statistic, that only around 7%-10% actually advanced from LFR. Thats definitely not enough to justify a one time adventure for people that are not the target audience.
They will never remove it because raids are the main content for WoW unlike GW2, where it is niche content for people that enjoy challenging content. ArenaNet said they don’t want it to be main content.

And on every next difficulty level number of raiders is roughly 1/10 from the previous one. So 7-10% from LFR is actually amazing number.

Rednik.3809:

Miellyn.6847:

They released a statistic, that only around 7%-10% actually advanced from LFR. Thats definitely not enough to justify a one time adventure for people that are not the target audience.
They will never remove it because raids are the main content for WoW unlike GW2, where it is niche content for people that enjoy challenging content. ArenaNet said they don’t want it to be main content.

And on on every next difficulty level number of raiders is roughly 1/10 from the previous one. So 7-10% from LFR is actually amazing number.

The difference is, people run LFR multiple times for quests and equipment upgrades.
If you don’t implement very high rewards in GW2 people that don’t intend to run normal mode will play it once and return to the most profitable farming location.

Miellyn.6847:

The difference is, people run LFR multiple times for quests and equipment upgrades.
If you don’t implement very high rewards in GW2 people that don’t intend to run normal mode will play it once and return to the most profitable farming location.

And in T4 fractals rewards are better than in T1 – T3 combined. But people still run them, even now, with AR being highly available.

Rednik.3809:

Miellyn.6847:

The difference is, people run LFR multiple times for quests and equipment upgrades.
If you don’t implement very high rewards in GW2 people that don’t intend to run normal mode will play it once and return to the most profitable farming location.

And in T4 fractals rewards are better than in kitten combined. But people still run them, even now, with AR being highly available.

T2 und T3 fractals are basically dead except recommanded daily. T1 is mostly recommended and legendary weapon collections, sometimes some new players.

Rednik.3809:

And in T4 fractals rewards are better than in kitten combined. But people still run them, even now, with AR being highly available.

T1 fractals are being run for the precursor achievements and the research pages not for the material rewards. And maybe to get enough infusions to go to higher AR levels. AR isn’t as highly available as you might think especially if you want to run multiple characters (when the T4 meta changes for example)

Rednik.3809:

I’d like to see how knowledge of Trio will help you to kill Matthias, or Grose tactics will help you on Sab, and so on. For GW2 raids, without battle res mechanics and with a lot of oneshot or almost oneshot abilities, encounter experience is extremely important.

You basically show how easy raids wont help you. Yes if you are exp on trio it wont help a bit because its too easy, just like easy mode raids.
Now being exp in gors will make all other bosses easier than not being exp at all, because if you are exp in gors it means:
You are aware of the enverioriment: you cant touch the orbs on gors, you need to watch gors movements to evade the smash, you need to avoid the egg prison, you need to learn to do all this and do an OK dps.
With this you after you touch sab flame wall 1 time you will realise “hmm cant touch it, its one shot” so the same way you look for gors eggs, smash… to evade it, you will look for the sab flame wall and avoid it, and you will succeed because you are good at evade things because of gors.
And the same way you do it while doing good dps you will do the same on sab so the platform wont be destroyed.
Hard bosses make you better at the game, getting better make every next encounter easier, even if they have 0 mechanics in commom.
Playing easy mode dont make you better, and you dont see the real mechanic so it help you in no way.

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

Miellyn.6847:

Your beloved WoW proved that a training mode doesn’t work, even Blizzard said it.

Nah. One dev privately mentioned his dislike of the way it got implemented. Which he did, by the way, only after he stopped working at Blizzard.
Apparently, Blizzard disagreed, because LFR is still there.

They released a statistic, that only around 7%-10% actually advanced from LFR. Thats definitely not enough to justify a one time adventure for people that are not the target audience.

10%? That’s massive, regardless of what it’s 10% of. Remember, that it’s people that would most likely not raid otherwise.

And in WoW numbers, we’re likely speaking about more people that gw2’s active population.

Astralporing.1957:

Miellyn.6847:

Astralporing.1957:

Miellyn.6847:

Your beloved WoW proved that a training mode doesn’t work, even Blizzard said it.

Nah. One dev privately mentioned his dislike of the way it got implemented. Which he did, by the way, only after he stopped working at Blizzard.
Apparently, Blizzard disagreed, because LFR is still there.

They released a statistic, that only around 7%-10% actually advanced from LFR. Thats definitely not enough to justify a one time adventure for people that are not the target audience.

10%? That’s massive, regardless of what it’s 10% of. Remember, that it’s people that would most likely not raid otherwise.

And in WoW numbers, we’re likely speaking about more people that gw2’s active population.

There is no incentive to run this mode ever again unless you overtune the rewards. 10% is nothing compared to the development that is needed, the team has only 6 people.
WoW needs the raid participation as raids are the main content. Why are you still trying to ignore that point?