Guild Wars 2

For every paying player who gives their feedback that the current design of all 8 dungeons is either “too hard” and/or “mechanics are bad in some way”, there seems to be a dedicated cadre of elitists who regularly post something to the effect of: “I’m sick of you stupid bads who can’t L2P and will cause Anet to ruin my perfect dungeons.”

Well, for all those kind, helpful, patient elitists who continue to prove the stereotype of an “elitist jerk”, here’s something I think you’d be well-served to consider:

No modern MMO can survive or thrive if it locks casual players out of entire sections of content. It’s that simple.

Want a current example? Look carefully at the financial woes of The Secret World, where casual players are completely brick-walled from participating in the end-game progression for purple (epic) crafted gear, in a game where gear stats are everything. The elite players there have some amazingly well-designed dungeons with a super-challenging “Nightmare” mode. Even the casual players can get a small taste of that in the “Elite” modes. And below those two tiers we have the “Normal” modes. But the problem is that many casuals want to play the NM modes, and CAN do it in terms of skill, but there are many other factors that effectively prevent all but the hardcore players who have 6+ hours per day to spend on the game from actually doing NM mode dungeon runs with any regularity. And this is a big part of why TSW is struggling: the casuals hit a brick wall and just leave.

Now, before you say “But this game is different—there’s no brick wall for the casuals here”, consider the fact that dungeon tokens, many many many of them, are needed in this game not only for dungeon prestige armor skins, but also for legendary weapon crafting components. So if the casuals cannot do dungeons here to farm ungodly amounts of tokens, then they are effectively locked out of both of these types of “end game” goals/content. And there isn’t much end-game other than farming for your prestige/legendary stuff.

So like it or not, if Anet wants to keep the majority of the player base around, happy, and thereby being tempted to spend cash on the cash shop, then Anet must make the dungeons more approachable/doable by casuals.

The problem here isn’t the casual players who are screwing up your game; it’s the Anet dungeon designers who haven’t yet figured out how to give you a good challenge while also enabling the casuals to get the job done too.

I’m not an elitist, I truly madly deeply believe that if I can finish all the dungeons that I have finished, so can you…if you try.

Sorry, but I would make the dungeons harder even, remove waypoints and let the dungeon run fail on a complete wipe. As it is now, most dungeons are a joke even the worst players can beat if they are willing to spend repair costs.

Dungeons aren’t hard. They’re also increasing tokens gained per dungeon.
There’s a difference between “learning to play” and actually trying. Most people don’t want to try unless someone says they should, if they’re not good enough and ignorant of their own profession/skills.

I still don’t get this sense of entitlement or casual/elitist differential so young in the game’s life. I just (as in, yesterday) did my first explorable dungeons (HotW too) and they were pretty easy and fun. Minimal deaths, people not going glass cannon, and ressing each other whenever possible.

If people spent less time coming up with game comparisons or saying why dungeons are hard/not-for-casuals and more time, I don’t know, playing or reading the wiki…..

And..your “dungeon tokens are needed for looks/legendaries” comment doesn’t apply to your post at all. If you’re trying to get at casual players should have access to legendaries and all the looks too as quickly as more hardcore players, your sense of entitlement is skewed beyond fixing.

And in before “All exotic gear” comments:
I did Zealot/Plunderer HotW Explorable in almost all greens and no gems in most of my gear, AND it was explorer’s gear. Rest of my party was new to the dungeon as well save for one person farming it. So…anyone who claims “blah blah ALL EXOTIC blah blah SO HARD” is really pushing it nowadays.

shaktiboi.5194:

For every paying player who gives their feedback that the current design of all 8 dungeons is either “too hard” and/or “mechanics are bad in some way”, there seems to be a dedicated cadre of elitists who regularly post something to the effect of: “I’m sick of you stupid bads who can’t L2P and will cause Anet to ruin my perfect dungeons.”

Well, for all those kind, helpful, patient elitists who continue to prove the stereotype of an “elitist jerk”, here’s something I think you’d be well-served to consider:

No modern MMO can survive or thrive if it locks casual players out of entire sections of content. It’s that simple.

Want a current example? Look carefully at the financial woes of The Secret World, where casual players are completely brick-walled from participating in the end-game progression for purple (epic) crafted gear, in a game where gear stats are everything. The elite players there have some amazingly well-designed dungeons with a super-challenging “Nightmare” mode. Even the casual players can get a small taste of that in the “Elite” modes. And below those two tiers we have the “Normal” modes. But the problem is that many casuals want to play the NM modes, and CAN do it in terms of skill, but there are many other factors that effectively prevent all but the hardcore players who have 6+ hours per day to spend on the game from actually doing NM mode dungeon runs with any regularity. And this is a big part of why TSW is struggling: the casuals hit a brick wall and just leave.

Now, before you say “But this game is different—there’s no brick wall for the casuals here”, consider the fact that dungeon tokens, many many many of them, are needed in this game not only for dungeon prestige armor skins, but also for legendary weapon crafting components. So if the casuals cannot do dungeons here to farm ungodly amounts of tokens, then they are effectively locked out of both of these types of “end game” goals/content. And there isn’t much end-game other than farming for your prestige/legendary stuff.

So like it or not, if Anet wants to keep the majority of the player base around, happy, and thereby being tempted to spend cash on the cash shop, then Anet must make the dungeons more approachable/doable by casuals.

The problem here isn’t the casual players who are screwing up your game; it’s the Anet dungeon designers who haven’t yet figured out how to give you a good challenge while also enabling the casuals to get the job done too.

Make AC for casuals and easy to get gear and keep the rest the same, that’s an idea.

No AC doesnt need any casualisation either. Its a pretty well balanced dungeon.

Difficulty is ok. Just token requirements are too big. Just give random exotic at the end of instance and that’s all.

[i]Dungeons aren’t hard. They’re also increasing tokens gained per dungeon.[i/]

For whatever reason it won’t let me quote. Can you sight where you read that. I’m not saying your lying i just want to see where Anet said it so I can get all excited.

Daboris.6730:

They’re also increasing tokens gained per dungeon.

Can you source this infor? I can’t seem to find where that was stated by Anet in the forums.

Reevac.1748:

Daboris.6730:

They’re also increasing tokens gained per dungeon.

Can you source this infor? I can’t seem to find where that was stated by Anet in the forums.

Source
No specific date when.

Here’s a nice reddit post (also on these forums) of their plans/source statements via user Rytlock.

aleiro.8521:

I’m not an elitist, I truly madly deeply believe that if I can finish all the dungeons that I have finished, so can you…if you try.

This is not helping. Of course I can when I try. I am usually pretty good at those things, but I don’t want to try.

I want a layed back party experience that I can do with my friends from time to time, and just go through and when we fell like a bit more challenge we want the not so layed back but still pretty easy party experience.

You see I have nothing against hard games. I’ve played with the NES as a child and there is a reasion why it is called Nintendo Hard. I even played Touhou
But this is not the reason I play MMOs. I play to socialize to meet up online when it is not time to get together can play some board games. You see I usually want just a good and easy time with my friends while drinking a cup of coffee and eating a sandwich.

Guild Wars doesn’t bring this kind of content to the table. It is a beautyful game and I enjoy the world exploration and have no big deal to soloing the personal story. Some of my friend have problems with that others don’t. But we want to play together so we will always pick the difficulty veryone is comfortable with and this is usally a pretty low dificulty.

Of course we could motivate us to get better at the game, perhaps train our 1337 skillz in PvP and so forth, but everyone of us has a job, a family and other things to do than playing video games. No one of us is 17 anymore where where gaming for 24 hours strait on LAN parties. Seriously this time is over and there are a lot of people like me who still want to play from time to time, but simply don’t wa to put effort into it and don’t seek any clallenge. Because when I seek challenge I go to work or raise my kid. This is enough challenge in my life.

Here I just want to relax.

yandere.9176:

aleiro.8521:

I’m not an elitist, I truly madly deeply believe that if I can finish all the dungeons that I have finished, so can you…if you try.

This is not helping. Of course I can when I try. I am usually pretty good at those things, but I don’t want to try.

Then you shouldn’t be complaining really, right? Do events with your friends. Do jumping puzzles (Spent 3-4 hours on one in Orr). Do each others’ personal stories together. You can’t ask for dungeons to be dumbed down to a point of not trying. SM is pretty close at some points where it’s got no real difficulties and requires zero party cohesion.

It’s understandable you want to do what you want with your friends and such, but to say something like you just want a relaxed experience is clearly stating dungeons in any fashion are not your style, nor should they be catered to that mentality.

Ran CoE last night and took a guy in there who had never run a dungeon. We made it through and he only had likekitten repair. Not bad for his first explorer and a full complete of CoE one of the harder ones. Don’t have to be an elitist to run these.

really five silver =kitten?

Daboris.6730:

yandere.9176:

aleiro.8521:

I’m not an elitist, I truly madly deeply believe that if I can finish all the dungeons that I have finished, so can you…if you try.

This is not helping. Of course I can when I try. I am usually pretty good at those things, but I don’t want to try.

Then you shouldn’t be complaining really, right? Do events with your friends. Do jumping puzzles (Spent 3-4 hours on one in Orr). Do each others’ personal stories together. You can’t ask for dungeons to be dumbed down to a point of not trying. SM is pretty close at some points where it’s got no real difficulties and requires zero party cohesion.

It’s understandable you want to do what you want with your friends and such, but to say something like you just want a relaxed experience is clearly stating dungeons in any fashion are not your style, nor should they be catered to that mentality.

I don’t even…….seriously. Entitlement at it’s finest. Yandere you’re playing the WRONG game if you don’t want to try and still get stuff. If you got it you’d be the same person complaining that the content is boring. Do you not see how Anet has this set up? They make it hard so you play for the long haul, the long you’re playing the higher chance of you spending real life money. I love this game and know that’s the set up they have. Get use to it or get a new game to eventually be bored with.

Also what is this kitten reference? I’m trying to figure it out but the context changes so often.

being a casual player doesnt necessarily mean you have to accept being bad at the game… you can get elitists who are bad and casuals who are decent. It only takes 5 competent players to complete a dungeon, they are casual friendly, any casual can learn how to play the game in a basic fashion…

Daboris.6730:

And..your “dungeon tokens are needed for looks/legendaries” comment doesn’t apply to your post at all. If you’re trying to get at casual players should have access to legendaries and all the looks too as quickly as more hardcore players, your sense of entitlement is skewed beyond fixing.

Where in my OP (or any related post in any related thread to date) did I say “…casual players should have access to legendaries and all the looks too as quickly as more hardcore players…”?

That’s right, I said no such thing. Nor did I even say anything to the effect of “prestige armor dungeon token costs are far too expensive” or “the sheer amount of mats you have to grind to craft a legendary weapon is far too high”. I don’t have a dog in that hunt.

IMO, if you’re “hardcore” you definitely should have an advantage over casual players in gaining the prestige stuff. Which you’ll have by dint of sheer playtime alone, since what distinguishes hardcore players from casual players is NOT skill or desire, but simply how much time you have to spend playing the game in concentrated play sessions.

There are plenty of “casual” players who used to be hardcore players in other games, but they just don’t have the time now. You know, folks who have kids or job demands change or whatever and they’re lucky if they can sit down for 45 minutes at a stretch. Such casuals might also be weak players, but they also might be very strong players. The term “casual” simply indicates how much time they spend per day/week/month on the game.

The term “casual” also indicates how group-organized a given player is. Hardcores will typically either find corresponding hardcore grinding guilds or cultivate a list of trusted players through PUGging, and will eventually form static farming groups with other hardcores either through a guild or not. Again, this effort all takes a significant amount of time and in-game availability. It has nothing at all to do with skill at the game mechanics. It has only to do with time availability and social organizing.

Many casual players will not have time or desire for guild politics, recruiting, and drama at all. Or they’ll join “casual” guilds where everyone (or most) are good strong players but at any given hour span when you’re logged on, you don’t know who else from the guild will be logged on with you because you’ve all got crazy RL schedules.

So “hardcores” will certainly gain their prestige and their legendaries much sooner than casuals, simply because they can afford to put in a lot more time being available in the game itself and in organizing the type of coordinated group effort needed to clear so-called “hardcore” content. What’s wrong with that?

However, if the dungeon content is so difficult and tedious that it takes forever to PUG through even one branch, because: A) the pool of PUG-willing players is small because of difficulty perceptions, and B) PUGs are inherently less coordinated so content that requires uber amounts of coordination simply wipes the floor with them, then that dungeon content becomes effectively impossible for casuals to complete.

All I’m saying in my OP is that Anet’s design challenge here is to enable casuals and PUGs to have a viable route to farming at least some flavor of explorable paths, so that casuals and PUGs can farm dungeon tokens. Because if you don’t do that, then you have locked the casuals away from having any access at all to two of the largest drivers of end-game replay.

You can do this while still rewarding the “hardcore” players commensurately more by making the dungeon content that is truly for the hardcores reward more tokens per run. But right now, it’s either all or nothing: you either have the hardcore time and mentality to get coordinated groups together to farm these explorable paths… or you don’t. You either have a viable path to farming tokens at one speed, or you have no viable path at all.

As I said, Anet’s challenge is to satisfy both the hardcores and the casuals. It’s not impossible. Meanwhile, the “elitists” need to chill, to stop raging at the legitimate feedback from more casual players, and to recognize that money is what pays the devs to keep creating new content, fix bugs, and get the next installment of Guild Wars 2 DLC/expansion in the pipeline and out the door. And again, if you want to see a dire cautionary tale about what happens if you don’t figure out how to satisfy the casuals, go talk to any of your friends who was heavily invested in The Secret World and ask them how it’s going over there.

What both sides of this “discussion” need to understand is that there are two very different groups that are meeting in the same game, with conflicting experiences and expectations.

Veterans of GW1 are used to the notion that full-party wipe means restarting from the beginning. Also, it means you’re out an entry fee to the dungeon. We’re used to the idea that not everybody does everything, or has the ability to do everything, and we’re fine with that (for a long time, access to two elite PvE dungeons was restricted to one guild alliance each, determined by largely PvP-oriented efforts). When you do accomplish something, however, you have a way of showing this to the world. Prestige armor, titles… there was a way to show the world that you worked hard, and after months of dedicated effort, reached a goal. I’m in this camp.

Then you have the players migrating from “more traditional” MMOs. Most people don’t remember life before WoW, so that is what I will reference. Dungeons are mandatory. A long time ago, they were the source of “good” gear. Not “great,” just “good.” Then something changed. Dungeons were made more accessible to everybody, and formed a sort of progression. After reaching the cap, this is what we were expected to do to get upgrades. Because we were expected to do it, it had to be within the reach of the casual, unorganized players. Players returning from canceled accounts also had to be accomodated—we needed a leg-up in getting back into the current content. The end result was that dungeons were a chore (chore meaning it is the result and not the process that is important), and the rewards important. I’m in this camp, too.

The middle ground that GW2 reached is that dungeons are hard. That is how they are meant to be. If you want casual content for your friends, form a group and do DEs—I do it with my family all the time. Dungeons are harder, but you don’t get any better gear from them. These are GW1-style dungeons, with concessions to WoW-style plyers (waypoints, chance to recover from a wipe, etc.). I remember fighting to the very end of a GW1 dungeon, only to realize that I had forgotten to bring a certain skill. Back out to the beginning we go. This was not a hardship; this was the price of carelessness.

Just because it is not what you wanted, does not mean it is bad at being what it is. And just because it is what you wanted, does not mean that others should not expect their desires to be met by the content.

I’ve followed GW2 news for a long time; I knew what to expect in dungeons for a long time, and it excited me. A lot of people coming to GW2 have not and default to expectations based on prior experiences.

e have very different communities merged together here—to some PvPers, “gg” is a sign of respect for one’s opponents in a well-fought battle, regardless of the outcome. To others, it is a taunt for a bested opponent.

I hope to one day obtain a legendary, but I don’t know that I will ever make it. If I don’t, it just means that the legendaries that other people have mean that much more—these are people that have endured a rite of passage, put in time and effort, and walked away with a reward. And it won’t affect my ability to enjoy the game, because I still have a goal to work towards, and there is no functional difference between their character and mine. It is that last part that makes the system work: that excessively rare gear is no better than an exotic that can be crafted for ~2g in materials. It is a title.

Saint.4789:

Also what is this kitten reference? I’m trying to figure it out but the context changes so often.

It’s anets profanity filter

Obviously people misunderstood me. I don’t want to get free stuff for no effort, actually dungeon rewards were never a motivation for me. It is the kind of content I think is interesting. You make a party of five go in try to solve the puzzle.

And this content is at the moment only available for non-casual gamer. It isn’t important to get gear, or gold, XP, anything. dungeon reards are pretty unimportant. The question is this kind of content available on an easy mode and ate the moment it is not. Plain and simple.

As I said, yes I could gear up put effort into the whole thing and solve it on the currently difficulty. But I just don’t have the time I have to spend, for so little a good in-game gear, or an armor skin. The only reward that matters is the fun. Is it easy to pick up? Was it interesting and would I do it again? As I said in-game reward is not a motivation for me, never was never will be. I want to see interesting content at a resonable difficulty. And Touhou does this, the Guild Wars Dungeon not.

Plain and simple.

@Fildydarie, I get exactly what you’re saying. I agree with all of it except for one nuance. In GW1 before the very last expansion, there were plenty of ways to get any prestige skin or special item of gear you wanted. It didn’t matter whether you were “casual” or “hardcore”. Being hardcore simply meant you got it faster. Being casual meant you had to work for months to acquire something instead of weeks. And for a “casual” player, that is asking for a LOT of effort and dedication.

When that last expansion came out with the Hall of Heros and the dungeons—that’s when a lot of people stopped playing GW1. Myself included. Because that was the first expansion where a casual player—like me by that time—was simply locked out of every hoping to attain something worth logging in and playing for. On a casual level of time and ability to socially organize, the prestige stuff in the last expansion was effectively unattainable.

Now, that wasn’t a huge loss for Anet because they didn’t have the same monetization scheme as they do in GW2. They got 95% of the money they could ever expect from me because I stupidly bought that last expansion without understanding the switcheroo in end-game viability they were foisting on me.

GW2 is a very different story. This is a triple-A MMO with all its attendant costs, and no monthly subscription model. To make their revenue, they have to rely on the cash shop. Which means heavily invested players who will feel the need to buy more bank slots, more bag space per character, more character slots, etc.

To keep as many players invested as possible so that they can realize this revenue potential, they would be willfully stupid to keep the current state of dungeon difficulty and rewards that effectively locks out the majority of their playerbase from having a reason to stay invested in the game.

Again, elitists need to chill. The gaming world now is a different place than it was even 4 years ago. Cautionary tales (TSW, SWTOR) abound.

Saint.4789:

I don’t even…….seriously. Entitlement at it’s finest. Yandere you’re playing the WRONG game if you don’t want to try and still get stuff. If you got it you’d be the same person complaining that the content is boring. Do you not see how Anet has this set up? They make it hard so you play for the long haul, the long you’re playing the higher chance of you spending real life money. I love this game and know that’s the set up they have. Get use to it or get a new game to eventually be bored with.

his point is there should be content which is gated by time, not difficulty. right now dungeons are gated by both, plus they’re the only long term progression in the game (tokens for armor and legendary). no matter what a.net tells you in their blogs, farming dragons and doing events with DR is hardly something that will keep a lot of players that rather want time gated content for months, for the simple fact there is no progression anymore (the brick wall OP was talking about).

that doesn’t mean suddenly everything gets nerfed across the board.

ask yourself, how many players of the demographic that is fine with the current state of dungeons and progression are likely to buy gems (because that’s what anet’s after), compared to all the other demographics? not to mention the people who can beat said dungeons but simply don’t find them fun (and boring after the 5th run)?

I’ve done most of the dungeons and grinded out a non-CoF armor set, and I think dungeons need some work.

They aren’t balanced at this point. They are rough and seem thrown together without being tested. Compared to how well everything else is designed, i.e. the leveling system, WvW system, DE system, map completion, skill and trait system, the dungeons in Guild Wars 2 are extremely antiquated. Some might like this, as is clear with all those coming to the defense of these dungeons, but I still feel dungeons fall short in Guild Wars 2.

Of course, most of them are still buggy wrecks, so it’s hard to tell what the game developers truly intended. All I know is that there are improvements that can be made. Make a dungeon as challenging all you want—I love challenging content—but at least make it interesting.

And I’m sorry if Guild Wars 2 dungeons seems interesting and new to people, but I have experienced these types of dungeons in really bad Korean MMOs that I’ve played (and I’ve tried a lot!). These dungeons are not as well-thought out as you might think—I’m sorry to say.

Fildydarie.1496:

Veterans of GW1 are used to the notion that full-party wipe means restarting from the beginning. Also, it means you’re out an entry fee to the dungeon. We’re used to the idea that not everybody does everything, or has the ability to do everything, and we’re fine with that (for a long time, access to two elite PvE dungeons was restricted to one guild alliance each, determined by largely PvP-oriented efforts). When you do accomplish something, however, you have a way of showing this to the world. Prestige armor, titles… there was a way to show the world that you worked hard, and after months of dedicated effort, reached a goal. I’m in this camp.

what most people forget (or don’t know) in gw1 you were never “forced” to run said content. you could easily do what you found fun the most and progress towards the armor/weapon/whatever. to put it in gw1 terms – most people don’t want DOA to be nerfed, because they don’t care about it – IF they have something to do BESIDES DOA.

I still don’t understand why anet didn’t make the rewards “gifts” like for the legendarys you can get in various ways, and not just running one dungeon over and over till you want to poke your eyes out.

Fluffycalico.2715:

Saint.4789:

Also what is this kitten reference? I’m trying to figure it out but the context changes so often.

It’s anets profanity filter

It all makes such beautiful kitten sense now.

yandere.9176:

aleiro.8521:

I’m not an elitist, I truly madly deeply believe that if I can finish all the dungeons that I have finished, so can you…if you try.

This is not helping. Of course I can when I try. I am usually pretty good at those things, but I don’t want to try.

I want a layed back party experience that I can do with my friends from time to time, and just go through and when we fell like a bit more challenge we want the not so layed back but still pretty easy party experience.

You see I have nothing against hard games. I’ve played with the NES as a child and there is a reasion why it is called Nintendo Hard. I even played Touhou
But this is not the reason I play MMOs. I play to socialize to meet up online when it is not time to get together can play some board games. You see I usually want just a good and easy time with my friends while drinking a cup of coffee and eating a sandwich.

Guild Wars doesn’t bring this kind of content to the table. It is a beautyful game and I enjoy the world exploration and have no big deal to soloing the personal story. Some of my friend have problems with that others don’t. But we want to play together so we will always pick the difficulty veryone is comfortable with and this is usally a pretty low dificulty.

Of course we could motivate us to get better at the game, perhaps train our 1337 skillz in PvP and so forth, but everyone of us has a job, a family and other things to do than playing video games. No one of us is 17 anymore where where gaming for 24 hours strait on LAN parties. Seriously this time is over and there are a lot of people like me who still want to play from time to time, but simply don’t wa to put effort into it and don’t seek any clallenge. Because when I seek challenge I go to work or raise my kid. This is enough challenge in my life.

Here I just want to relax.

They have stated time and time again that dungeons are not for your type of player. Dungeons are ment to be difficult. They are not faceroll content. If you want that play the rest of the game.

Fildydarie.1496:

What both sides of this “discussion” need to understand is that there are two very different groups that are meeting in the same game, with conflicting experiences and expectations.

Veterans of GW1 are used to the notion that full-party wipe means restarting from the beginning. Also, it means you’re out an entry fee to the dungeon. We’re used to the idea that not everybody does everything, or has the ability to do everything, and we’re fine with that (for a long time, access to two elite PvE dungeons was restricted to one guild alliance each, determined by largely PvP-oriented efforts). When you do accomplish something, however, you have a way of showing this to the world. Prestige armor, titles… there was a way to show the world that you worked hard, and after months of dedicated effort, reached a goal. I’m in this camp.

Then you have the players migrating from “more traditional” MMOs. Most people don’t remember life before WoW, so that is what I will reference. Dungeons are mandatory. A long time ago, they were the source of “good” gear. Not “great,” just “good.” Then something changed. Dungeons were made more accessible to everybody, and formed a sort of progression. After reaching the cap, this is what we were expected to do to get upgrades. Because we were expected to do it, it had to be within the reach of the casual, unorganized players. Players returning from canceled accounts also had to be accomodated—we needed a leg-up in getting back into the current content. The end result was that dungeons were a chore (chore meaning it is the result and not the process that is important), and the rewards important. I’m in this camp, too.

The middle ground that GW2 reached is that dungeons are hard. That is how they are meant to be. If you want casual content for your friends, form a group and do DEs—I do it with my family all the time. Dungeons are harder, but you don’t get any better gear from them. These are GW1-style dungeons, with concessions to WoW-style plyers (waypoints, chance to recover from a wipe, etc.). I remember fighting to the very end of a GW1 dungeon, only to realize that I had forgotten to bring a certain skill. Back out to the beginning we go. This was not a hardship; this was the price of carelessness.

Just because it is not what you wanted, does not mean it is bad at being what it is. And just because it is what you wanted, does not mean that others should not expect their desires to be met by the content.

I’ve followed GW2 news for a long time; I knew what to expect in dungeons for a long time, and it excited me. A lot of people coming to GW2 have not and default to expectations based on prior experiences.

e have very different communities merged together here—to some PvPers, “gg” is a sign of respect for one’s opponents in a well-fought battle, regardless of the outcome. To others, it is a taunt for a bested opponent.

I hope to one day obtain a legendary, but I don’t know that I will ever make it. If I don’t, it just means that the legendaries that other people have mean that much more—these are people that have endured a rite of passage, put in time and effort, and walked away with a reward. And it won’t affect my ability to enjoy the game, because I still have a goal to work towards, and there is no functional difference between their character and mine. It is that last part that makes the system work: that excessively rare gear is no better than an exotic that can be crafted for ~2g in materials. It is a title.

This is perfect right here. If I never got an exotic, so be it. If the content was too hard for me to complete a dungeon with the time I have so be it. I’ve njoyed the $100 I’ve spent, and I plan to enjoy it more. It’s only been out for 1 month and I’m not even 80 yet. I don’t understand this need to faceroll everything.

Daboris.6730:

And in before “All exotic gear” comments:
I did Zealot/Plunderer HotW Explorable in almost all greens and no gems in most of my gear, AND it was explorer’s gear. Rest of my party was new to the dungeon as well save for one person farming it. So…anyone who claims “blah blah ALL EXOTIC blah blah SO HARD” is really pushing it nowadays.

And what was their gear like? Did they pick up your slack?

Oh wait. You don’t know because they were randoms and a farmer. And chances are the farmer had pretty good gear.

Good job proving nothing.

Different day, same kittens.

shaktiboi.5194:

For every paying player who gives their feedback that the current design of all 8 dungeons is either “too hard” and/or “mechanics are bad in some way”, there seems to be a dedicated cadre of elitists who regularly post something to the effect of: “I’m sick of you stupid bads who can’t L2P and will cause Anet to ruin my perfect dungeons.”

Or, they are players who are going at a moderate pace and find it just as easy as “elitists”. I JUST started doing explorables and story modes, nowhere near exotic or even rare gear, and find them fine.

Well, for all those kind, helpful, patient elitists who continue to prove the stereotype of an “elitist jerk”, here’s something I think you’d be well-served to consider:

No modern MMO can survive or thrive if it locks casual players out of entire sections of content. It’s that simple.

The only one locking someone out of an instance is you.

Want a current example? Look carefully at the financial woes of The Secret World, where casual players are completely brick-walled from participating in the end-game progression for purple (epic) crafted gear, in a game where gear stats are everything. The elite players there have some amazingly well-designed dungeons with a super-challenging “Nightmare” mode. Even the casual players can get a small taste of that in the “Elite” modes. And below those two tiers we have the “Normal” modes. But the problem is that many casuals want to play the NM modes, and CAN do it in terms of skill, but there are many other factors that effectively prevent all but the hardcore players who have 6+ hours per day to spend on the game from actually doing NM mode dungeon runs with any regularity. And this is a big part of why TSW is struggling: the casuals hit a brick wall and just leave.

There will always be people who give up. If you’re really a casual player, there should be no reason to give up on a game if you’re always progressing and doing new things. If by casual you mean plays at leisure and at a moderate-slow pace and takes it little by little. However, if by casual you mean isn’t willing to put in effort over time, that is not casual, that is just lazy.

Now, before you say “But this game is different—there’s no brick wall for the casuals here”, consider the fact that dungeon tokens, many many many of them, are needed in this game not only for dungeon prestige armor skins, but also for legendary weapon crafting components. So if the casuals cannot do dungeons here to farm ungodly amounts of tokens, then they are effectively locked out of both of these types of “end game” goals/content. And there isn’t much end-game other than farming for your prestige/legendary stuff.

Tokens are being upped in the future. Then it comes down to what separates the “two groups” (let’s face it, there are a lot more) of players. I’d say if a person doesn’t want to commit the time to doing dungeons, despite how long it takes, then they shouldn’t be complaining. How is this any different from any other game? Raiding is the same, you commit a day or more to doing something, than do it a week later. It’s progression, and it can be the exact same with dungeons. The difference here is…you don’t need to do AC to do CM to do TA to do SE, etc…you can do whatever you want and get whatever gear you want. I’d say the choice there is much more appealing than a streamline Normal dungeons→Heroic Dungeons→Specific bosses per dungeon per loot→Raid 1→Raid 2→Raid 3→Heroic Raid 1, etc. etc.

So like it or not, if Anet wants to keep the majority of the player base around, happy, and thereby being tempted to spend cash on the cash shop, then Anet must make the dungeons more approachable/doable by casuals.

Already addressed, conclusion paragraphs to restate should also end your thoughts.

The problem here isn’t the casual players who are screwing up your game; it’s the Anet dungeon designers who haven’t yet figured out how to give you a good challenge while also enabling the casuals to get the job done too.

I tried to answer you. It’s a non-issue, honestly. There’s the casual/hardcore conundrum that makes no sense since everyone has their own pace, or group of friends at their own pace and skill level. You can’t say it doesn’t cater to casuals when I’m sitting here, a month later, at 80, with almost no good equipment, just starting dungeons – and telling you they’re not as hard as people keep claiming them to be…unless I’m above a casual, IDK. I play to have fun and progress – I go on to craft, explore, whatever – I only come on here during work to pass time.

No game grows through complacency. We should all understand that constructive feedback and developer interaction help a game become better, not worse. Everyone should also understand that there is no “wrong”, so long as someone can provide a good, well constructed, adult and intelligent reason for their argument.

If everyone can demonstrate that in their arguments? And the devs don’t respond with complete and total defensiveness? We will see things improve for everyone, not get worse. There are ways to make these experiences better without removing the challenge that they seek to maintain in their game.

I am sorry, but this thread makes some ridiculous assumptions that ‘casual’ players (a term that has all but lost its meaning at this point) are bad at the game/cannot organise.

No, believe it or not, nothing is stopping you from organising or communicating. You just seem to not want to.

Regardless of what the OP thinks, explorable dungeons are meant to be hard. That is their intention. That is the point of them being there. To make them easier would rob them of their purpose. Prestige gear ceases to be very prestigious if everyone can get it by buttonmashing.

Please, if you want easier content, go do dynamic events. Go do story mode dungeons. Go do achievements. Just allow people who enjoy a challenge to actually, well… be challenged.

Final Fantasy XIV, Diablo 3, and Star Wars: The Old Republic ignored their initial feedback, and they did fine.

Sarcasm. Don’t be that guy.

miya.5160:

Final Fantasy XIV, Diablo 3, and Star Wars: The Old Republic ignored their initial feedback, and they did fine.

Sarcasm. Don’t be that guy.

Well, in terms of sales.. they did, and so is Guild Wars 2, once again, in terms of sales. However, Guild Wars 2 is not Diablo III in a sense that it’s not a game that you only sell once then forget about. If they want to keep maintaining a player base? They need to listen to feedback and improve upon what they’ve started.

If they don’t do that? Well… SW:ToR is a great example. Their subscriber base fell in half after half a year, and is continuing to drop.

I gave you a hint, and you still became that guy.

I don’t how what why I don’t even what just happened where am I?

I was being sarcastic. Just take the sentence I wrote before, “Sarcasm,” and take the opposite to be my intention.

miya.5160:

I gave you a hint, and you still became that guy.

I don’t how what why I don’t even what just happened where am I?

I was being sarcastic. Just take the sentence I wrote before, “Sarcasm,” and take the opposite to be my intention.

I know.. I took it as sarcasm and responded to it as Sarcasm.

Text: It sucks for communicating tone and stuff. I meant no disrespect at all.

shaktiboi.5194:

“in a game where gear stats are everything”

This is not a game where stats are everything. If you want the stats get the gear crafted. End of story. The only thing that your so called “elitists” have in this game is their willingness to spend the time and the effort to get the token gear which in the end is ONLY for the look of the armor. It separates them from the rest of the population.

If you want the gear for the stats, then get it crafted. Takes 1/10 the time and effort and you get the stats you want.

Im currently farming the living hell out of TA which has no easy route to completion like CoF, The stats on the ta gear suck for warrior but im doing it anyway because i like the look.

Stop crying like a baby and learn what its like to not get welfare loot like in WoW or other games.

miya.5160:

I’ve done most of the dungeons and grinded out a non-CoF armor set, and I think dungeons need some work.

They aren’t balanced at this point. They are rough and seem thrown together without being tested. Compared to how well everything else is designed, i.e. the leveling system, WvW system, DE system, map completion, skill and trait system, the dungeons in Guild Wars 2 are extremely antiquated. Some might like this, as is clear with all those coming to the defense of these dungeons, but I still feel dungeons fall short in Guild Wars 2.

Of course, most of them are still buggy wrecks, so it’s hard to tell what the game developers truly intended. All I know is that there are improvements that can be made. Make a dungeon as challenging all you want—I love challenging content—but at least make it interesting.

And I’m sorry if Guild Wars 2 dungeons seems interesting and new to people, but I have experienced these types of dungeons in really bad Korean MMOs that I’ve played (and I’ve tried a lot!). These dungeons are not as well-thought out as you might think—I’m sorry to say.

^ precisely this, most of these dungeons need alot of work.

I may have jumped the gun, but your response seemed a bit too forward and earnest.

But I agree with your response to my statement. Partly, because it tells me what I already knew in order to make my original statement. Only partly.

I’m kidding. No offense intended.

Edit: Also, in regards to TA not having an easy route, it has two. Up-Up, and the slightly longer Forward-Up. It’s not as easy as the pre-patch CoF speed run, but I’ve never failed it, despite having farmed my set with mostly PUGs.

Edit 2: Wait. Should I have not let that slip?

Lasur Arkinshade.4107:

Prestige gear ceases to be very prestigious if everyone can get it by buttonmashing.

Please, if you want easier content, go do dynamic events. Go do story mode dungeons. Go do achievements. Just allow people who enjoy a challenge to actually, well… be challenged.

implying you do anything else in dungeons. and assuming that there can only be 1 difficulty of dungeon :rolleyes:

and didn’t we already establish that the “lol just do something else then?” is moot since it’s about people playing long term – not giving them finite content that loses it’s appeal after a month.

I may have jumped the gun, but your response seemed a bit too forward and earnest.
But I agree with your response to my statement. Partly, because it tells me what I already knew in order to make my original statement. Only partly.
I’m kidding. No offense intended.
Edit: Also, in regards to TA not having an easy route, it has two. Up-Up, and the slightly longer Forward-Up. It’s not as easy as the pre-patch CoF speed run, but I’ve never failed it, despite having farmed my set with mostly PUGs.
Edit 2: Wait. Should I have not let that slip?

The question I want to ask you though, when you ran TA did you skip alot of the mobs or kill everything? My guess is you skipped alot of the trash mobs, which fundamentally shows how flawed the design of these dungeons is, cause my money is on the fact that the devs want you to kill thats stuff as in their minds thats part of what makes the dungeon difficult……….

For groups that had already been there, we ran past things, and I became incredibly efficient at guiding people through.

For groups that had not, we cleared everything. It honestly only takes 5-10 minutes. The only offender would be the three worms in the hallway, but there are enough Volatile Blossoms that I don’t believe I’ve had a group ever wipe there, even groups that just hit 80 and were completely new to the zone.

Your mileage may vary though. By the time I grouped with the fresh 80s that were new to Twilight Arbor, I already had 40 or so runs under my belt, so I could guide them with my eyes closed.

i honestly believe that the dungeons need some work only because some of the design choices aren’t fun.

but when it comes to casuals being able to do em, i believe they are ok, i’ve done runs with guild groups and pugs, and while the rewards/repair ratio is broken right now, the times we wiped (and boy we did it badly) forced us to rethink our strategies, figure out how we could combo each other or provide better support, and overall learn and not “tank and spank”

on the other hand, i don’t get the legendaries argument, should everyone really have a chance at getting em without doing some painful grind? wait, before you trash me, lemme just said i played the original gw, lotro, doac, aoc and a bunch of others “casually” and i NEVER got a single legendary and i never really felt i was missing something. of course then came wow and i got free epics and a handful legendaries, but i got no “sense of accomplishment” out of em compared to the other titles where i was just doing my thing with my crappy “salaryman” gear

miya.5160:

For groups that had already been there, we ran past things, and I became incredibly efficient at guiding people through.

For groups that had not, we cleared everything. It honestly only takes 5-10 minutes. The only offender would be the three worms in the hallway, but there are enough Volatile Blossoms that I don’t believe I’ve had a group ever wipe there, even groups that just hit 80 and were completely new to the zone.

Your mileage may vary though. By the time I grouped with the fresh 80s that were new to Twilight Arbor, I already had 40 or so runs under my belt, so I could guide them with my eyes closed.

Great example, everyone does this, skipping content. I think that a-net didn’t intend this and are struggling to amend it. I would be willing to guess that at least 90% of the players in this game are MMO vets, in terms of dungeon content these players have “been there and done that” and if given the choice or opportunity to skip content they will. And since I have personally seen 90%+ groups doing it this way being an elitist in these dungeon environments becomes moot, as in there cant be elitists. There is nothing elite about skipping content and speed running all dungeons ad-nausea.

Did you skip the part where I said clearing everything only takes an extra 5-10 minutes?

Skipping content is a gamble, because if one person doesn’t make it through and you can’t resurrect them, you lose the time you would have saved if the skipping were successful.

Or are you just wanting to rant, because I could let you do that if you want.

miya.5160:

Did you skip the part where I said clearing everything only takes an extra 5-10 minutes?

Skipping content is a gamble, because if one person doesn’t make it through and you can’t resurrect them, you lose the time you would have saved if the skipping were successful.

Or are you just wanting to rant, because I could let you do that if you want.

Taking the extra 5-10 mins to do it is irrelevant, what I am saying is that people just are nt killing those trash mob packs at all and that’s the point, the devs didn’t intend this. I really doubt I am coming off like ranting either, just trying to make a point.

Krinthered.9763:

shaktiboi.5194:

“in a game where gear stats are everything”

This is not a game where stats are everything. If you want the stats get the gear crafted. End of story. The only thing that your so called “elitists” have in this game is their willingness to spend the time and the effort to get the token gear which in the end is ONLY for the look of the armor. It separates them from the rest of the population.

If you want the gear for the stats, then get it crafted. Takes 1/10 the time and effort and you get the stats you want.

Im currently farming the living hell out of TA which has no easy route to completion like CoF, The stats on the ta gear suck for warrior but im doing it anyway because i like the look.

Stop crying like a baby and learn what its like to not get welfare loot like in WoW or other games.

Nice way to quote me out of context. The bit you quoted from me was talking specifically about TSW, not this game. As for the personal insult, back at ya.

It is irrelevant, so I am wondering why you are trying so hard to make a point of it?

I can see a few motivations for this. You want to clear everything. That’s fine. There are some groups that did things in a way that I did not agree with, so I left them, courteously, as soon as we completed the dungeon. Or you are so immersed in the Guild Wars 2 world that you don’t like it when something feels broken.

In response to the second reason of things feeling broken, tough. A lot of the dungeons have mechanics that are broken. I’m not talking about, “Oh, I can’t dodge this! I keep dying!” broken. I’m talking about broken broken, as in not working broken. If this is your motivation, I can understand it, but I believe Arena Net needs to fix the broken broken things first. I applaud you for being so into the world.

Now, if you want to clear everything and force everyone to clear everything as well, we have a problem. Because you’re trying to force your way of playing onto others. As I have stated, I have cleared and not cleared things. It makes little difference. You have mentioned that the time saved or the time lost is irrelevant. You are essentially becoming the elitist you hate.

It is irrelevant, so I am wondering why you are trying so hard to make a point of it?
I can see a few motivations for this. You want to clear everything. That’s fine. There are some groups that did things in a way that I did not agree with, so I left them, courteously, as soon as we completed the dungeon. Or you are so immersed in the Guild Wars 2 world that you don’t like it when something feels broken.
In response to the second reason of things feeling broken, tough. A lot of the dungeons have mechanics that are broken. I’m not talking about, “Oh, I can’t dodge this! I keep dying!” broken. I’m talking about broken broken, as in not working broken. If this is your motivation, I can understand it, but I believe Arena Net needs to fix the broken broken things first. I applaud you for being so into the world.
Now, if you want to clear everything and force everyone to clear everything as well, we have a problem. Because you’re trying to force your way of playing onto others. As I have stated, I have cleared and not cleared things. It makes little difference. You have mentioned that the time saved or the time lost is irrelevant. You are essentially becoming the elitist you hate.

Wow really? What about the devs intending for you to kill the trash mobs and not skip them, which is the point I was making, why is that so hard for you to understand? Reading comprehension ftw…… Where did I ever say I hate elitists? I said in the way dungeons are currently being ran, elitists cant exist, as in there is nothing elite about these dungeons at all. Its just faceroll skip all the mobs, and what you said earlier proves this is happening……. Yeah you SHOULD be forced to kill the trash mobs as in that’s the way its intended to be run, and its imo flawed that they allow people to just run by everything, these mobs shouldn’t have leashes and should follow you the whole way and make you stop and deal with them. That would stop that behavior really fast. Why don’t you act a little more defensive? No one is belittling you, so get over it.

Whoa there. It sounds like I should be more defensive, because that wasn’t me being defensive in my previous post.

In any case, you’re still trying to force players to play the way you feel the game should be played. Guild Wars 2 hasn’t exactly made it a point to have you kill everything. In fact, there are many events and missions where you do not kill everything. There are some dungeons that encourage the idea that you are not meant to kill everything.

For example, take CM explorable Butler (That’s what she said). In the room after the hallway of spike traps, there is a group of monsters with several elites. I’m going to say elites, because you get what I mean. I don’t exactly know the Guild Wars 2 term for them. Lieutenants? But I digress. There are a lot of elites thrown in with a lot of regular monsters. The elites also litter the entire room with bombs. I was in a group of friends, where we couldn’t figure out how to get past the giant group that was next to another giant group without killing a few and then dying a few times.

And then I realized, oh wait, there’s a ramp right before them. Oh wait, there’s a walkway past them. Oh wait, there’s a drop into the next room.

At first, I wondered if it was intended. Essentially, all you need to do to get past the group is Swiftness. That’s something that any group is likely to have. And then, in the next room, there were only a few monsters in a group. Yep. Intended.

I’m sure you could kill all of them if you ran your face into it enough or had a geared enough group, but the way out is there right in front of you.

So no, I don’t believe devs intend for you to kill everything. I think Guild Wars 2 has done a good job of encouraging you to approach things creatively—to an extent.

And there is no malice or grudge in my posting intent.