Guild Wars 2

I understand that some 1337 players can solo/duo dungeons or some parts of a path.

My question is, with the coming of HoT, and the likely migration of a majority of players to the new content, will there be a mode that downscales content in dungeons for solo players?

Kind of like in GW1 where you could take 7 Heroes when mission outposts were dead.

Not a critical issue I know, but would be nice especially for newer players to at least be able to see the content without having to rely on PUGs.

The idea behind soloing dungeons, is not that you wouldn’t be relying on PUGs (doing it with a party is way easier, less focus and waaaaaaaaaaaaay faster). The idea behind soloing a dungeons is 2 sided.

- A good way to earn money without zerging around with 100 people, or standing beside/on a easy spot of dragons (shattere, teq, Jormag)

- And a good way to go hardcore, beating a arah run means that you have to know every trait you got to deal most damage while still being able to survive since it most likely is 1 shot=dead if react wrong once in the 5-15 mins. the bosses takes to beat.

Make soloing dungeons easier would not help any of these 2 points, I would like to have a way to earn money while soloing and a removal of all known bugs like jumping over maps, so you dont need to sell spots though, it have come to my attention that some of these people buying are not just doing it for saving time, but simply because they cant, this alone decreases the morality behind selling a path, but doing the dungeon is more than fine.

In conclusion, dont make solo easiere but make it so it cant be bought yet still gets money for hardcore run, fix lvl 80 dungeon so bosses cant be avoided and

I’d be nice if they made all paths possible to solo (COE laser room prevents solos, for example). The chances of them actually doing this: 0.

ArenaNet has already told us that they will not be doing this as it “Fractures player bases.” For the same reason, there will be no hard mode or anything of that nature unless this stance is changed in the future.

As the game currently stands though, most paths are solo-able in their current state. Except for mechanics that require more than a single player (for example Arah p1 because of Shoggroth, CoF p1 gate etc)

an actual solo mode would be nice. Meaning 1 person can enter only. Add in timer, and a ladder to see who finish the fastest and seperate for each class.

zengara I was referring to a solo “mode” like laokoko said.

I personally don’t want ANet to make group content like dungeons easier, in fact they could stand a revamp akin to the Tequatl fight, utilizing a more varied design style requiring players to do more than simply burn down mobs.

What I meant was to include an actual SOLO mode, where one player could reliably go through a dungeon and finish it. Whether this means adding in indestructible NPCs to rez the player (like much of the LS content does) or simply downscaling the mobs so one player could reliably and consistently conquer the dungeon would be up to ANet.

I mean, if you think about it, dungeons from a story perspective actually make sense as a single player or solo instance, as there is only ONE Pact Commander in the context of the Personal/Living Story.

And in a way, the beginnings of such a mechanic are already in place via the “Challenge Mote” system in some LS instances. ANet could create a “Solo Mote” outside of each dungeon entrance.

Ohh, that make sense, I thougt that you wanted to downscale the content inside the dungeons, and not just make it so that you remove the requirement for 4 players (Like instead of 4 on tar, there will only be needing 1 to get him out, tho he would not change, in other words, he would still be able to push and put tar on you etc.).

Having a record in game mode or some form for support behind these dungeons, would be awesome…..Especially since people would probably see this as hardcore content.

Titanimite.2534:

ArenaNet has already told us that they will not be doing this as it “Fractures player bases.” For the same reason, there will be no hard mode or anything of that nature unless this stance is changed in the future.

As the game currently stands though, most paths are solo-able in their current state. Except for mechanics that require more than a single player (for example Arah p1 because of Shoggroth, CoF p1 gate etc)

In MMOs, expansions fracture the player base by default, since new loot, more rewarding content, etc. causes the veteran playerbase to migrate to that area, while new or incoming players have to contend with the “vanilla” areas being near or completely deserted.

The only way to avoid “fracturing” would be for ANet to integrate all the HoT changes into the base game, while at the same time making sure that the new content is not area specific. One need only look at the Silverwastes chest loot farm and its extremely high reward to low risk ratio to see why many other areas are very thinned out, barring World Boss locations.

Which means a total revamp of the vanilla game, which is extremely unlikely. For example, ANet is already dividing Masteries into two distinct categories, one for core GW2, and one for HoT. So by design ANet is already fracturing the game.

tl;dr ANet’s design philosophy will fracture the player base, my concern in this thread is that as a consequence of that philosophy that they then provide easier access (not ease of completion) to areas which will experience significant player thinning.

Lord Kuru.3685:

I’d be nice if they made all paths possible to solo (COE laser room prevents solos, for example). The chances of them actually doing this: 0.

Would actually like to see these kind of events to be “scaled”.
Youre with 4 man? 4 consoles at CoE lasers. 2 man? 2 consoles.
Same goes for CoF gate, 1 person only gate controller. 2 man gate controller + totem.

laokoko.7403:

an actual solo mode would be nice. Meaning 1 person can enter only. Add in timer, and a ladder to see who finish the fastest and seperate for each class.

I know that this is what OP meant. They’ve already stated that it’s not going to happen. The reason they are doing this with Arah story is because it is required for the personal story and many people are complaining that it too hard (really its just a time gated boring instance). There is no reason for them to do this with any other instances in a group oriented game.

Kaleban.9834:

Titanimite.2534:

ArenaNet has already told us that they will not be doing this as it “Fractures player bases.” For the same reason, there will be no hard mode or anything of that nature unless this stance is changed in the future.

As the game currently stands though, most paths are solo-able in their current state. Except for mechanics that require more than a single player (for example Arah p1 because of Shoggroth, CoF p1 gate etc)

In MMOs, expansions fracture the player base by default, since new loot, more rewarding content, etc. causes the veteran playerbase to migrate to that area, while new or incoming players have to contend with the “vanilla” areas being near or completely deserted.

The only way to avoid “fracturing” would be for ANet to integrate all the HoT changes into the base game, while at the same time making sure that the new content is not area specific. One need only look at the Silverwastes chest loot farm and its extremely high reward to low risk ratio to see why many other areas are very thinned out, barring World Boss locations.

Which means a total revamp of the vanilla game, which is extremely unlikely. For example, ANet is already dividing Masteries into two distinct categories, one for core GW2, and one for HoT. So by design ANet is already fracturing the game.

tl;dr ANet’s design philosophy will fracture the player base, my concern in this thread is that as a consequence of that philosophy that they then provide easier access (not ease of completion) to areas which will experience significant player thinning.

MMOs by default are fractured. You have hard core players who min/max everything and those who don’t give a kitten and spend real world money on cash shop for in game items that they want. The casual players are who developers cater to as they are their primary source of income.

I never argued against that, and I believe ArenaNet has a flawed view of this as the player base in Guild Wars 2 is very much fractured. I merely said, that this is reason that ArenaNet doesn’t implement this and why they never will UNLESS they change their stance which I clearly said in my original post. That said, I agree with you the Expansion will only make this worse but I still fail to see your point of how this relates to the original post.

Meryn.6875:

Lord Kuru.3685:

I’d be nice if they made all paths possible to solo (COE laser room prevents solos, for example). The chances of them actually doing this: 0.

Would actually like to see these kind of events to be “scaled”.
Youre with 4 man? 4 consoles at CoE lasers. 2 man? 2 consoles.
Same goes for CoF gate, 1 person only gate controller. 2 man gate controller + totem.

Yes. This would be awesome. But it’s pretty clear this is way more work than Anet would be willing to put into dungeon content.

Im against this to be honest. Dungeons were designed for groups. I dont think they should scale ever. Obviously i dislike player count checks just as much as anyone. Those are the only things i would ask to scale. But having a dedicated solo mode. No thanks.

However. Scaling rewards to players would be nice. Say a dungeon rewards 1g on completion for each player. If you solo you should get 5g. So basically it splits the gold pool at the end between the players. A duo would give 2.5g each.

spoj.9672:

Im against this to be honest. Dungeons were designed for groups. I dont think they should scale ever. Obviously i dislike player count checks just as much as anyone. Those are the only things i would ask to scale. But having a dedicated solo mode. No thanks.

However. Scaling rewards to players would be nice. Say a dungeon rewards 1g on completion for each player. If you solo you should get 5g. So basically it splits the gold pool at the end between the players. A duo would give 2.5g each.

This would result in overall discouraging people to play together because it would be so much better gold/hour to solo all of the time. The general public would have everyone learning how to do it, even more so than the huge amount of people who learned about selling Arah.

Selling paths aside it’s still way better gold/hour to do dungeon tours with full groups and it should be that way imo.

Kaleban.9834:

I understand that some 1337 players can solo/duo dungeons or some parts of a path.

It’s probably not as hard as you think.

I think most average players would be able to solo most of it. It’s just take them much longer compare to good players.

I would like a solo mode for all dungeons. Perhaps the explorable mode as I would like to be able to enjoy reading the great lore. Every time I try a dungeon – even explorable mode — the players just rush through and I can’t read and enjoy what the characters are saying. Once I even missed the loot chest as they exited the dungeon so fast. Help A-net! Some of us would actually enjoy reading all the lore you all worked so hard to provide.

laokoko.7403:

Kaleban.9834:

I understand that some 1337 players can solo/duo dungeons or some parts of a path.

It’s probably not as hard as you think.

I think most average players would be able to solo most of it. It’s just take them much longer compare to good players.

Not going to lie, it is way harder, and the death count would be ALOT, if you dont know every skill that the boss can do it normally means death, and if you dont know how to counter it with your traits, or at least have a video that shows every trait vs that boss it probably means death too…..

Here is a good explanation…..

As a thief on first boss p3 (Crusher) you need sword/pistol to avoid his 1 shot hammer attack and you cant have Critical Haste in Shadow Arts…if you do, he will most likely insta kill you, his mob will immobilize you and therefore when you turn to dagger dagger you need to focus on both the mob and the boss to dodge the attacks, and if you make it through the 5 mins of insta kill each 5 secs you have to stealth through, which isn’t hard at all, but still need to be done since even 1 mob can kill you and there are like 10-20 on your way to the next boss……

On the next boss you need skills on acrobatics or you will die in by the barrage of aoe throws, and okittennow each move he does or you could die by knockdown/lifesteal etc. ofc. while doing all of this you need correct heals and skills, if you dont have wall to support you, you will die since the dodge count is to high. Its essential that you dodge right on the spot when he throws…….

Then lupi which got 3 phases and 3 attacks on each phase + the bug that have occurred which makes him remove 80% of your hp with 1 single attack, which means you cant miss 2 of those or 1 kick…….and you need to fight him for 10-15 minutes without failing once……….Good luck.

Or you can just get a party and finish all bosses in like 1 minute and one shot lupi.

^ There are dungeon outside of arah. Most experienced players should be able to solo those easier ones like CM or SE just by looking at videos. And there are many videos on youtube pretty much teach you everything you need to know.

Obviously, people only like to do arah because that’s where all the money is for selling path.

And many other path are easy too, the only reason people can’t do them is because for example cof path 1 or coe require people stepping on console or panel.

And now ArenaNet will add a player check that will not allow you to start the dungeon if there aren’t 5 people in it.

laokoko.7403:

^ There are dungeon outside of arah. Most experienced players should be able to solo those easier ones like CM or SE just by looking at videos. And there are many videos on youtube pretty much teach you everything you need to know.

Obviously, people only like to do arah because that’s where all the money is for selling path.

And many other path are easy too, the only reason people can’t do them is because for example cof path 1 or coe require people stepping on console or panel.

I dont know if you have soloed a arah path yet, but by personal experience……..

No, people like to do arah since the experienced part is made for the higher levels (better traits and gear I know that personal stats will be reset, which you have probably noticed since in lvl 35 in AC it’s basically a insta kill while as lvl 80 with full gear/traits scaled down you got like 5 seconds to dodge) The other dungeons are rather easy and most bosses only have a few attacks which doesnt insta kill you, Thats why there are tournaments and leaderboards on best runs in arah.

Even though they show you everything on youtube, the system behind defeating arah takes very long, I died first time trying to solo 1 of the paths it took me 4 hours and died so many times that I still can’t believe I kept trying…..
I ended up not completing that path. Still, even now I die alot in the dungeons, since it is truly a 1 mistake=kill kind of situation. Learned how to best use my traits vs each boss personally, so it wont take 10 minutes, but I would still be able to survive. (most people would probably not use the same skill/traits when soloing, a lot of youtube videos are different and so are they in games.

And I agree on your second statement.

I get to Lupi. But got stuck there. I have pretty bad reflex. And there is a really long walk after you die.

I’m thinking of leveling another charcter on another account. Maybe mesmer so I can rez myself after I die without taking so much down time.

I’m still in the process of learning the low level dungeon, and trying to cutdown the time before try doing arah again. I figure if I have problem meleeing Vallog, I won’t have much success doing Lupi.

zengara.8301:

I dont know if you have soloed a arah path yet, but by personal experience……..

No, people like to do arah since the experienced part is made for the higher levels (better traits and gear I know that personal stats will be reset, which you have probably noticed since in lvl 35 in AC it’s basically a insta kill while as lvl 80 with full gear/traits scaled down you got like 5 seconds to dodge) The other dungeons are rather easy and most bosses only have a few attacks which doesnt insta kill you, Thats why there are tournaments and leaderboards on best runs in arah.

Even before the ferocity scaling system was rolled out in April 2014 Arah was still way more popular than all the other dungeons for soloing was. It has very much to do with the fact that you can make a lot of money from it, but also because certain bosses like Lupicus are so popular and iconic.

Purple Miku.7032:

zengara.8301:

I dont know if you have soloed a arah path yet, but by personal experience……..

No, people like to do arah since the experienced part is made for the higher levels (better traits and gear I know that personal stats will be reset, which you have probably noticed since in lvl 35 in AC it’s basically a insta kill while as lvl 80 with full gear/traits scaled down you got like 5 seconds to dodge) The other dungeons are rather easy and most bosses only have a few attacks which doesnt insta kill you, Thats why there are tournaments and leaderboards on best runs in arah.

Even before the ferocity scaling system was rolled out in April 2014 Arah was still way more popular than all the other dungeons for soloing was. It has very much to do with the fact that you can make a lot of money from it, but also because certain bosses like Lupicus are so popular and iconic.

It was more popular because it still was hard, I am not going to lie, the money behind it is a motivation to do it, but those who only look for money would probably rather go for easier ways to do the dungeon, like making a guard and insta kill lupi…. there would still be alot of people soloing dungeons if it was not for the money, when you see a person soloing basically every boss from the first to the last while of the group is dead, you are going to get motivated (I know so since on every party in Arah this happens, at least 1 in my party will ask how to do it with thief and what trait system/gear and weapon should be used)

Besides, after that it just gets harder=more time to kill since you are going to switch traits and absolutely need double dagger + energy sigils

As I said, I do it because I don’t like zerging around, and find dragon runs rather boring (since people simply stand on 1 point and attack) and all dungeons is pretty much figured out, just 1 wipe and it seems like the party empties in every other dungeon.

Arah for me is a good way to feel like you are doing something, every dodge count 1 wrong move can (probably would) result in insta death and lost like 5 mins besides the 3 mins to run. And I said, need to keep focussed for 10-15 minutes, I like that because even in places like shattered, the main thing to do is stand still and shot beside it, instead of in front it.

spoj.9672:

Im against this to be honest. Dungeons were designed for groups. I dont think they should scale ever. Obviously i dislike player count checks just as much as anyone. Those are the only things i would ask to scale. But having a dedicated solo mode. No thanks.

However. Scaling rewards to players would be nice. Say a dungeon rewards 1g on completion for each player. If you solo you should get 5g. So basically it splits the gold pool at the end between the players. A duo would give 2.5g each.

Okay, but WHY are you against it? If you don’t want to solo, and only run with full groups, then the change would have zero effect on you right?

You even say to scale the rewards, and it would also be a simple process to tweak the difficulty of a dungeon to roughly equate the time taken with a group.

Example, say it takes 10 minutes with a full group of 5 to rush a dungeon, but it takes 1 person in the new solo mode between 40 minutes and an hour. Relatively a similar amount of time, and if you scale the rewards as you suggested, the same amount of gold (i.e. 5 people split 5 gold, solo mode rewards 1 gold).

This would keep the incentive for groups alive, since you’d get a lot more gold per unit time by doing dungeons in groups, and it would keep the incentive for soloing group mode alive because skilled players could get that 5 gold reward by themselves, IF they’re good enough.

All the solo mode does is allow the average player to experience the content without threat of being kicked for being a noob or wearing Nomad’s gear, waiting around for PUGs or guild groups to assemble, and being able to do a dungeon at their own pace, on their own schedule. It wouldn’t eliminate either of the existing options due to a somewhat poorer reward structure, but it would open up content to players who haven’t seen it before or wish a more leisurely pace. And is important given that when HoT is released, its likely that dungeons will be even more sparsely populated.

Because i dont want group content to become devalued further. This is an MMO. And i dont want the difficulty of soloing group content to go away.

Anet: if you make the unsoloable dungeons (COE lasers, for example) soloable, you’re effectively adding content for hardcore players with very minimal dev effort.

Seriously, this might be a very cost-efficient way to keep players in the game a bit longer.

Dungeons wont have anything in the future except more bugs and ‘fixes’.

J Eberle.9312:

Dungeons wont have anything in the future except more bugs and ‘fixes’.

Honestly, I’m getting a bit tired of players stating what ANet will NEVER do.

Compare the original manifesto to the current SotG, or the idea that they would NEVER do an expansion in favor of the LS release method, etc., etc.

ANet is a business, and is in the business of making a good game for the money. IF it makes economic sense to expand the options for the player base (minimal programming effort for maximum return on player involvement and retention) then yes, ANet will do it regardless of what a few players think should happen based on emotional responses and unfounded opinion.

IF it is relatively easy to program a solo mode for the dungeons, then it makes no sense to not do it, full stop. Expanding options for the player base while simultaneously “reinvigorating” old content is never a bad thing.

And spoj, I SPECIFICALLY stated that it would make the most sense to add a solo mode, while simultaneously adjusting rewards to make soloing the group content an attractive option. Soloing group content would attract the hardcore players, the solo mode would attract casual players, incidentally the largest gaming demographic that nearly every developer in existence is trying to entice.

Kaleban.9834:

J Eberle.9312:

Dungeons wont have anything in the future except more bugs and ‘fixes’.

Honestly, I’m getting a bit tired of players stating what ANet will NEVER do.

Compare the original manifesto to the current SotG, or the idea that they would NEVER do an expansion in favor of the LS release method, etc., etc.

ANet is a business, and is in the business of making a good game for the money. IF it makes economic sense to expand the options for the player base (minimal programming effort for maximum return on player involvement and retention) then yes, ANet will do it regardless of what a few players think should happen based on emotional responses and unfounded opinion.

IF it is relatively easy to program a solo mode for the dungeons, then it makes no sense to not do it, full stop. Expanding options for the player base while simultaneously “reinvigorating” old content is never a bad thing.

And spoj, I SPECIFICALLY stated that it would make the most sense to add a solo mode, while simultaneously adjusting rewards to make soloing the group content an attractive option. Soloing group content would attract the hardcore players, the solo mode would attract casual players, incidentally the largest gaming demographic that nearly every developer in existence is trying to entice.

Anet is looking for players even more casual than the ones who would be attracted by easy-to-solo dungeons. Look at the newest content they’ve put out. They’re just one (very small) step above: “Autoattack while not standing in orange circles; stand in white areas when they appear; collect reward (as long as your map is skilled at taxiing).”

Kaleban.9834:

J Eberle.9312:

Dungeons wont have anything in the future except more bugs and ‘fixes’.

Compare the original manifesto to the current SotG, or the idea that they would NEVER do an expansion in favor of the LS release method, etc., etc.

A quote would be nice. I only could find “not in the near future” written back in 2010.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

A quote would be nice. I only could find “not in the near future” written back in 2010.

2013. And picking specifics to pick apart is of course missing the crux of the argument. There is NOTHING off the table in game development if it means a larger playerbase and more income. Hence players stating that ANet would NEVER do something is shortsighted and ignorant. If a solo mode is cost effective, its something that should be done, both for the health/longevity of the game and for player satisfaction and retention.

""So right now we’re not really looking at expansions as an option," lead content designer Mike Zadorojny told me on his visit to London last week.

“It’s something that’s on the table but it’s not something we’re focused on, because what we want to do is – our idea here is that with Living World, we can do what expansions would have done but do it on a more regular basis.”

I pressed him to tell me whether there would be a Guild Wars 2 expansion this year and he shook his head to indicate no. What about next year, I asked?

“If we do this right,” he answered, “we will probably never do an expansion and everything will be going into this Living World strategy.”"

Kaleban.9834:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

A quote would be nice. I only could find “not in the near future” written back in 2010.

2013. And picking specifics to pick apart is of course missing the crux of the argument. There is NOTHING off the table in game development if it means a larger playerbase and more income. Hence players stating that ANet would NEVER do something is shortsighted and ignorant. If a solo mode is cost effective, its something that should be done, both for the health/longevity of the game and for player satisfaction and retention.

""So right now we’re not really looking at expansions as an option," lead content designer Mike Zadorojny told me on his visit to London last week.

“It’s something that’s on the table but it’s not something we’re focused on, because what we want to do is – our idea here is that with Living World, we can do what expansions would have done but do it on a more regular basis.”

I pressed him to tell me whether there would be a Guild Wars 2 expansion this year and he shook his head to indicate no. What about next year, I asked?

“If we do this right,” he answered, “we will probably never do an expansion and everything will be going into this Living World strategy.”"

“If we do this right” and “probably never”.

Both statements left expansions on the table.

I’d be open for Story mode dungeons having a solo mode. Explorable dungeons need to stay as purely designed for groups (though steps that require you have to a certain number of players can be changed to not require it). Especially if the Victory or Death PS step still has Destiny’s Edge as key players.

As a fairly anti-social person, I’ve always wanted to solo dungeons with NPC heroes.

I tend to treat MMORPGs as solo/co-op RPGs, the other human players are there to be fancy NPCs…

Scaled down solo mode is for mukkin casuals. Why solo when you can be like me and get free runs!

voidwater.2064:

As a fairly anti-social person, I’ve always wanted to solo dungeons with NPC heroes.

I tend to treat MMORPGs as solo/co-op RPGs, the other human players are there to be fancy NPCs…

NPC heroes? What do you think this is, Guild Wars Night Fall or Eye of the North?

3casual5me

Well this conversation went places. I’m still not convinced about new dungeon content or attention however. And I would like to be. Because I enjoy dungeons.