Guild Wars 2

oxtred.7658:

No one in the dungeon subforum minds difficult content. However, most pugs can’t even melee spider queen. What will they do?

Happened two days ago.
- Stack on spider queen!
- Hurray finally a group who is up to date! (me)

Me going in circles gather spiders together, pop magnetic shield, put down aoes to kill those annoying bugs. Queen spawns, lava font, meteor shower, repositioning for Deep freeze and meanwhile i cast Ice storm i see they stand at the pillar aaaaand loading screen.

That’s so sad

Perhaps I should update tactics on gw2dungeons. :P

Wethospu.6437:

Perhaps I should update tactics on gw2dungeons. :P

I’ll contact Strife. We have work to do.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Some of the “elites” are kittens on a personal level, DonQuack is definitely off to a good start to confirm my bias, but in general I think there is no such thing as elitism in this game.

Me elite? Why thank you! First time someone from the dungeon forums has said such a thing. Can I join dnt/sc/whatever now? I submit this as evidence of proness

http://www.twitch.tv/msmoemoekyun/c/5513965

Joking aside. I am not against more challenging content. Or against the tough luck kid approach to it. Unfortunately as Wildstar has shown us. Us ’leet bawlah" people aint enough to keep a game “running”.

and to be perfectly honest if this game was totally like that I would most likely not play it. dai fc4 bf4 my plate is already full and having to remember different keybinds and crap doesnt help.

can you pm me what the kitten was? im curious

The main reason tanks are useless in gw2 is because there is no aggro generating skill. Even if they make the bosses harder so you cant dodge everything full tank will still be useless. Change the stats is probably a bad idea. If they want to make tanks more viable ( I said viable not optimal or needed) they should first add some source of aggro via sigil or runes or a new skill for all classes (lixe antitoxin spay but for aggro).

I saw that wildstar failed but i still dont understand why that happened. I think maybe its because players nowadays want hardcore content but they were too lazy to keep farming atunements, so they want the hardcore aspect from the old WoW days but they dont like the hardcore grind.

Casmurro.9046:

I saw that wildstar failed but i still dont understand why that happened. I think maybe its because players nowadays want hardcore content but they were too lazy to keep farming atunements, so they want the hardcore aspect from the old WoW days but they dont like the hardcore grind.

Personally I stopped being interested after reading some of the commentary on classes and playing a bit of their beta. It was a bland flavorless game play. I mean, there were cool aspects, but in the end it was a slightly more advanced GW2 combat but without the fun things like Reflects and what not. Situationally Overpowered abilities add flavor to a game, it makes knowing when and where to use something important. Otherwise it’s simply a test of read and react with a dozen different scenarios.

Basically in it’s hopes to create perfect balance they cut out the fun… and what’s the point then?

to add though, agian I only played a bit of the beta, so maybe there was more there that I just never saw but that was my take on the game.

spoj.9672:

Alilinke.7690:

Pretty sure the video is agreeing with what most of us are saying in this thread… o.O

Yes and no. His desire to want a tank role to be viable, support to be improved via stats and his suggestions to achieve that are something we dont agree with. He is right about tanks being currently useless though.

I mean the suggestion to give tanky players more endurance regen and make the default really low really annoys me. I thought he had more intelligence when it came to suggestions like that.

Skills effect untied from traits is a problem. They are currently only affected by trait. Berzerker geared guardian can have the same 12s duration of WoR as a full healing power/boon duration “support” guard, but enjoy so much more dps from gear. Some may argue choosing certain “support” trait would have a lower dps than full 66xxx. How much less though? idk, 10%? I don’t think it should have 90% of maximum dps but also retain 100% of support.

I’m not sure if it’s a good example. Just like WP’s. But imo, it certainly isn’t balanced. You are also right that with the trait system we have, one gear stat is probably better and all the changes are better done in trait alone. (Just like GW1). Now I don’t think it is possible to address this 2 years into the game so better be realistic and just change the pve encounters.

I don’t know why but I can’t stand this guys voice, to me hes so overally repetitive and nagging. Anyways, have you seen him play his ele? I feel he just rolls his face over the keyboard….reminds me of a time…

Ele, can you lay down a Fire field?
-sorry, I’m not traited for that

Yeah, he’s that kind of ele.

oxtred.7658:

Anet don’t want people to leave, and they don’t want to improve. That’s why difficult content won’t come. Most, if not all special snowflakes with their bad builds are also bad players and don’t understand how pve works. No matter how tanky they are they will still die in arah or fractals. And since anet main revenue is gem store, they don’t want the casuals ( who need gold via gems/ like buying small bonuses) to leave.

I feel like with good, non-linear design they could accomplish this.

Imagine an Arah-style dungeon where you can fight a Lupi-equivalent boss, OR go through some overly long timegates of respawning mobs that don’t drop loot and a trivial HP-sponge of a boss in order to progress. The casuals would spend 30+ minutes on the timegate(s)+boss, and good players would spend a few minutes (or so) at a fun, difficult boss; both would get the “same” end reward for whatever segment of the path they chose.

You could do the same with puzzles. Design good puzzles where they can be completed extremely quickly, but only with excellent teamwork. But also allow a solution that’s extremely easy and “anyone” can do, that takes much longer.

You can ensure that everyone can complete certain content, while also ensuring that skill is appropriately rewarded in the content, and it provides challenge for those who seek it (or who just seek efficient rewards per time). The casuals might not repeat the content a lot, but it’s not like they do that anyway. They largely just repeat content where you get the maximum rewards for near-zero effort near-zero skill gameplay, if open world farms are any indication.

Afya.5842:

spoj.9672:

Alilinke.7690:

Pretty sure the video is agreeing with what most of us are saying in this thread… o.O

Yes and no. His desire to want a tank role to be viable, support to be improved via stats and his suggestions to achieve that are something we dont agree with. He is right about tanks being currently useless though.

I mean the suggestion to give tanky players more endurance regen and make the default really low really annoys me. I thought he had more intelligence when it came to suggestions like that.

Skills effect untied from traits is a problem. They are currently only affected by trait. Berzerker geared guardian can have the same 12s duration of WoR as a full healing power/boon duration “support” guard, but enjoy so much more dps from gear. Some may argue choosing certain “support” trait would have a lower dps than full 66xxx. How much less though? idk, 10%? I don’t think it should have 90% of maximum dps but also retain 100% of support.

I’m not sure if it’s a good example. Just like WP’s. But imo, it certainly isn’t balanced. You are also right that with the trait system we have, one gear stat is probably better and all the changes are better done in trait alone. (Just like GW1). Now I don’t think it is possible to address this 2 years into the game so better be realistic and just change the pve encounters.

First, exactly on the 2 years into the game thing, this discussion is reasonable in an alpha or beta situation… not 2 years after release. Massive changes like that will really hurt a game.

As for the topic as whole, I really feel people need to shake off this idea that this is a standard MMO, it’s not, there is no trinity, there is no healer there is no tank. It’s silly anytime anyone talks about one of those things as being roles. You can help heal, and you can be tanky, but there is no healer or tank role.

The roles in GW2 are Control, Support, and Damage. Those very much do exist.

And with that, where do you define your role? It’s not in gear selection.

Gear selection is a scale of offense and defense, that’s it, with a little bit of choice in what areas of offense/defense you specialize in (crit/power/condi? and Toughness/Health/Healing?)

Where you get your role is mainly Weapon choice and Traits, with Sigils and Runes having an effect as well.

A thief will bring his pistol for a control role so we can strip defiance. Ele’s bring Ice bow for Deep Freeze. And there are alternatives for both of those, they are just the ones you see in optimized runs much of the time.

Support, might stacking Ele, Phalanx, Guard 45005 build, Mesmers with supportive Mantras, Elixers on Engi… I could go on. Condi removal, blinds, reflects, aegis, protection, blah blah, we all know what we can do for our groups as far as support goes. Support is NOT healing though, a little healing can be support, but it’s like a Square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square, healing is only part of support.

Damage of course we all know.

As far as I’m concerned far too many people are still caught up with the standard MMO model and can’t shake it when discussing GW2. It’s a different game. Is zerk/assassin optimal? Hell yeah, when isn’t offense more optimal than Defense assuming you can still survive just fine? (btw that goes for every game i’ve ever played)

As far as this WoodenPotatoes guy, nothing against him but the recent videos of his I’ve watched I think he falls into that category of trying to discuss GW2 with a mind for standard MMOs not for GW2. I do agree and even suggested the same in the raid thread as far as an encounter where you simply need to outlast things not damage so zerker gear is pointless and defensive gear would handle that area while the damage types handle another part of the overall event. As for the out of combat healing and attrition. Drop one of those seed things he showed, thief blasts with shortbow and group whatever else they have, boom everyone is full health, no need to build for healing, it’d simply add a minor annoyance.

Afya.5842:

spoj.9672:

Alilinke.7690:

Pretty sure the video is agreeing with what most of us are saying in this thread… o.O

Yes and no. His desire to want a tank role to be viable, support to be improved via stats and his suggestions to achieve that are something we dont agree with. He is right about tanks being currently useless though.

I mean the suggestion to give tanky players more endurance regen and make the default really low really annoys me. I thought he had more intelligence when it came to suggestions like that.

Skills effect untied from traits is a problem. They are currently only affected by trait. Berzerker geared guardian can have the same 12s duration of WoR as a full healing power/boon duration “support” guard, but enjoy so much more dps from gear. Some may argue choosing certain “support” trait would have a lower dps than full 66xxx. How much less though? idk, 10%? I don’t think it should have 90% of maximum dps but also retain 100% of support.

I’m not sure if it’s a good example. Just like WP’s. But imo, it certainly isn’t balanced. You are also right that with the trait system we have, one gear stat is probably better and all the changes are better done in trait alone. (Just like GW1). Now I don’t think it is possible to address this 2 years into the game so better be realistic and just change the pve encounters.

What you see as a bad thing we see as a good thing.

If you look at it objectively its a good system. Anyone can support and complete the content. Everyone has equal footing when it comes to providing that support. They only need to switch traits and utilities to do that. This means theres no forced re-gearing and pretty much no exclusion in casual groups. Casual groups dont care what gear you bring so its a non issue if people just use the LFG properly.

But for some strange reason a large portion of the gw2 community has a vendetta against efficiency. Why is it that ive never seen such aggressive anti meta propaganda in other games? And all this bs about no diversity just stems from a lack of understanding combined with a desire to turn gw2 into a trinity game so they can play their tank and healer roles.

Its honestly tiresome. No matter how many times we explain these things people will still blame the meta and demand change. And they still dont understand that those changes will make things far worse and totally ruin the game.

spoj.9672:

Afya.5842:

spoj.9672:

Alilinke.7690:

Pretty sure the video is agreeing with what most of us are saying in this thread… o.O

Yes and no. His desire to want a tank role to be viable, support to be improved via stats and his suggestions to achieve that are something we dont agree with. He is right about tanks being currently useless though.

I mean the suggestion to give tanky players more endurance regen and make the default really low really annoys me. I thought he had more intelligence when it came to suggestions like that.

Skills effect untied from traits is a problem. They are currently only affected by trait. Berzerker geared guardian can have the same 12s duration of WoR as a full healing power/boon duration “support” guard, but enjoy so much more dps from gear. Some may argue choosing certain “support” trait would have a lower dps than full 66xxx. How much less though? idk, 10%? I don’t think it should have 90% of maximum dps but also retain 100% of support.

I’m not sure if it’s a good example. Just like WP’s. But imo, it certainly isn’t balanced. You are also right that with the trait system we have, one gear stat is probably better and all the changes are better done in trait alone. (Just like GW1). Now I don’t think it is possible to address this 2 years into the game so better be realistic and just change the pve encounters.

What you see as a bad thing we see as a good thing.

If you look at it objectively its a good system. Anyone can support and complete the content. Everyone has equal footing when it comes to providing that support. They only need to switch traits and utilities to do that. This means theres no forced re-gearing and pretty much no exclusion in casual groups. Casual groups dont care what gear you bring so its a non issue if people just use the LFG properly.

But for some strange reason a large portion of the gw2 community has a vendetta against efficiency. Why is it that ive never seen such aggressive anti meta propaganda in other games? And all this bs about no diversity just stems from a lack of understanding combined with a desire to turn gw2 into a trinity game so they can play their tank and healer roles.

Its honestly tiresome. No matter how many times we explain these things people will still blame the meta and demand change. And they still dont understand that those changes will make things far worse and totally ruin the game.

If there is indeed only 1 stat in game, I agree with you it is a good thing that players can switch build with utilities and traits. However it is a fact that those other stats combos exist, that there are some people using those gears, the game has to be balanced with that in mind.

And no, making new content favoring different stats won’t break the game. Did husk break the game? No. It is an extreme execution but I don’t see how making more higher armored mobs would break the game. The zerker combo doesn’t work in one encounter doesn’t mean it would deem useless in other. Dredge immunes to blind, that doesn’t break the game, simply knockdown instead. People just have to find other working solutions to deal with them. Why can’t have a defense quest that mobs can be hardly bursted down and players actually have to utilize CCs? Would that break the game too?

Zui.9245:

oxtred.7658:

Anet don’t want people to leave, and they don’t want to improve. That’s why difficult content won’t come. Most, if not all special snowflakes with their bad builds are also bad players and don’t understand how pve works. No matter how tanky they are they will still die in arah or fractals. And since anet main revenue is gem store, they don’t want the casuals ( who need gold via gems/ like buying small bonuses) to leave.

I feel like with good, non-linear design they could accomplish this.

Imagine an Arah-style dungeon where you can fight a Lupi-equivalent boss, OR go through some overly long timegates of respawning mobs that don’t drop loot and a trivial HP-sponge of a boss in order to progress. The casuals would spend 30+ minutes on the timegate(s)+boss, and good players would spend a few minutes (or so) at a fun, difficult boss; both would get the “same” end reward for whatever segment of the path they chose.

You could do the same with puzzles. Design good puzzles where they can be completed extremely quickly, but only with excellent teamwork. But also allow a solution that’s extremely easy and “anyone” can do, that takes much longer.

You can ensure that everyone can complete certain content, while also ensuring that skill is appropriately rewarded in the content, and it provides challenge for those who seek it (or who just seek efficient rewards per time). The casuals might not repeat the content a lot, but it’s not like they do that anyway. They largely just repeat content where you get the maximum rewards for near-zero effort near-zero skill gameplay, if open world farms are any indication.

Good idea, but are they ready to face the " elitists use another route and do it faster, buff x boss to make sure we complete it in the same time" threads?

Afya.5842:

spoj.9672:

Afya.5842:

spoj.9672:

Alilinke.7690:

Pretty sure the video is agreeing with what most of us are saying in this thread… o.O

Yes and no. His desire to want a tank role to be viable, support to be improved via stats and his suggestions to achieve that are something we dont agree with. He is right about tanks being currently useless though.

I mean the suggestion to give tanky players more endurance regen and make the default really low really annoys me. I thought he had more intelligence when it came to suggestions like that.

Skills effect untied from traits is a problem. They are currently only affected by trait. Berzerker geared guardian can have the same 12s duration of WoR as a full healing power/boon duration “support” guard, but enjoy so much more dps from gear. Some may argue choosing certain “support” trait would have a lower dps than full 66xxx. How much less though? idk, 10%? I don’t think it should have 90% of maximum dps but also retain 100% of support.

I’m not sure if it’s a good example. Just like WP’s. But imo, it certainly isn’t balanced. You are also right that with the trait system we have, one gear stat is probably better and all the changes are better done in trait alone. (Just like GW1). Now I don’t think it is possible to address this 2 years into the game so better be realistic and just change the pve encounters.

What you see as a bad thing we see as a good thing.

If you look at it objectively its a good system. Anyone can support and complete the content. Everyone has equal footing when it comes to providing that support. They only need to switch traits and utilities to do that. This means theres no forced re-gearing and pretty much no exclusion in casual groups. Casual groups dont care what gear you bring so its a non issue if people just use the LFG properly.

But for some strange reason a large portion of the gw2 community has a vendetta against efficiency. Why is it that ive never seen such aggressive anti meta propaganda in other games? And all this bs about no diversity just stems from a lack of understanding combined with a desire to turn gw2 into a trinity game so they can play their tank and healer roles.

Its honestly tiresome. No matter how many times we explain these things people will still blame the meta and demand change. And they still dont understand that those changes will make things far worse and totally ruin the game.

If there is indeed only 1 stat in game, I agree with you it is a good thing that players can switch build with utilities and traits. However it is a fact that those other stats combos exist, that there are some people using those gears, the game has to be balanced with that in mind.

And no, making new content favoring different stats won’t break the game. Did husk break the game? No. It is an extreme execution but I don’t see how making more higher armored mobs would break the game. The zerker combo doesn’t work in one encounter doesn’t mean it would deem useless in other. Dredge immunes to blind, that doesn’t break the game, simply knockdown instead. People just have to find other working solutions to deal with them. Why can’t have a defense quest that mobs can be hardly bursted down and players actually have to utilize CCs? Would that break the game too?

I wasnt talking about new content. I meant changing the way stats worked. Or adding content that requires certain gear. Or making things unavoidable. Which im sure you agree would ruin the game for many people. But it seems you are mostly on the same page as me. Im fine with defence based content which encourages the use of CC. As long as it doesnt force people to gear tanky, as long as all gear sets are still viable.

Alright, since I was bored, I did some brainstorming. Please take these (humble) ideas of mine half-heartedly as it was conjured from my bored, intoxicated caffeinated brain. This is my proposal on How to Salvage the Current System to Allow More Variety of Game Play in PvE.

Objective: Change the current system as little as possible to avoid bugs, confusion, etc. Increase the potential of Condition, increase the usefulness of Crowd Control.

1. Make an overhaul of the current Defiant system:
Currently, Unshakeable grants stacks of Defiance, resistance against Blind (10% effective) and Vulnerability/Weakness. Defiance grants immunity against Crowd Control skills and is gained by CC.
Proposed change:

• Defiance replenishes over time, 1 stack every 4 seconds until it reaches the maximum number equal to the number of attackers (similar to the current system).
• Each stack of Defiance adds a certain amount of Armor to the boss, which reduces the incoming straight damage. For example, at 5 stacks of Defiance, incoming straight damage reduces 25%. At 20 stacks of Defiance, the boss receives 0 damage.
• However, with each stack of Defiance, the boss becomes more susceptible to Condition Damage (increase 5%). It also receives an extra stack of condition on top of the maximum number. For example: 25+1 for Bleeding, 1+1 for Burning, etc, allowing more than one source of condition damage. However, conditions expire 5% faster with each stack Defiance. At 20 stacks of Defiance, all conditions cannot be applied.
• Blind can only be applied when there is no Defiance (removed by CC skills).
• Weakness reduces Defiance regeneration rate by 50%.

Predicted Result:

• Skilled, organized zerker group is still able to burst the boss using the Frost Bow meta.
• Average zerker group will need to pay attention to CC to keep the Defiance stacks low and their DPS reasonable. If they ignore the CC, they need to either be skilled OR wear more tanky gears to to survive the attrition.
• Condi group can take advantage of Defiance for their damage boost. However, if going for max Defiance stack, they need to build for Condition Duration up keep as well. They will not have the mean to interrupt boss attack, so either dodge, use defensive skill, or become tankier.
• A mixed group will probably have less efficiency than either coordinate group but will be easier for average players.
• Bad glass groups will die.

Potential Hazards:

• Too confusing for new players.
• All the champion/world boss trains either cease to exist or become like a hive-mind crime syndicate.
• Or World Bosses can become Legendary rank and this rule won’t apply.

2. Buff Retaliation
- Scale to both Attacker’s Power (small) and Retaliation’s Source (big)
- Let Elite mobs activate Retaliation when a condition is met.

Cries Of Sorrow.5864:

screenshot is actually cringeworthier than i remember, here it is. i still don’t know what a mattvisual is.

and a little bonus pic of the old lion’s arch during wintersday.

ress, ress, OMG RESS OMG NUB

I… I hear their voices screaming at me, through all the mmos I’ve been playing…

plz range safe u nub l2kite

Every night, in my head, screaming…

/curls into the armchair sniffling

No but really, I almost cackled. You make videos on youtube=you pro. Jeez. People are so… erm.. special and original.

Casmurro.9046:

I saw that wildstar failed but i still dont understand why that happened. I think maybe its because players nowadays want hardcore content but they were too lazy to keep farming atunements, so they want the hardcore aspect from the old WoW days but they dont like the hardcore grind.

It’s simple. Wildstar catered towards the “hardcore” audience, who happens to be very niche, and allowed entry to the full experience of the game to these “hardcore” players. At the same time, there isn’t anything for the players who weren’t “hardcore”, which meant there was no reason for them to pay a monthly subscription (or grind the gold for it). The players who weren’t “hardcore” left the game, which left the open world and cities empty.

While that, some “hardcore” players for one reason or another leave the game, which puts the onus on the rest of his guild to find a replacement “hardcore” player to fill their 20- or 40-man raid. During this search, all 19 or 39 remaining players have nothing to do. So it’s to nobody’s surprise that within a week of failed tryouts, the entire raid team disbands, even including some “hardcore” players leaving the game entirely.

Thus continues the vicious cycle.

You make combat harder by requiring MORE active defense. More passive defense makes combat very stupid and not fun.

I think the new mordrem enemies show Anet understand this. If you don’t know their mechanics, they’ll melt you.

Wildstar failed because:

It wanted to be WoW, but charge the same as WoW. No “You can buy in game time with gold!” system will really change that. It is either: B2Play/F2Play or bust.

You go against WoW with WoW, you better have a reason for those raiders to drop all those max level chars.

The hardcore can support games, but Wildstar went so old school in both business and raiding that it was just….insane. 40 man raids? Really? There is a reason WoW dumped those ASAP. 40 people is a really really annoying thing to manage. ALL the recruitment etc, plus if another game launches then you are really out of sorts.

I play a very niche MMO TSW – Its hard to even manage 10 man raid teams (We have 2 teams – one euro / one US). We have to force both raid teams to exclude alts and pug if you have an empty slot just to help increase numbers. 40 in that game would just be impossible.