Guild Wars 2

what do you think, will we see something new, or will all (at least pugs) stay at a mirror ps-druid-chrono-2xdps?

Sadly I assume, apart from the dps slots, the first 3 slots are set. new guard might provide some quickness, but still lacks the utility and “evadeness” a chrono can provide. I’d realy like to see a “might spamming” deadeye, but it seems to static and biggest point: dont got banner. Same with druid- some classes may get some new healing options, but still dont got spotter+spirits+gotl+….
So no changes here, but maybe we’ll get a return of rev as supporter, depending on how good the dps increase from his new legend pays out.

So from a mesmer pov: rip mirrage, wb old boring rotation all day long…(remember those old dungeon days with portals and mantra and blink and build-/skillchanges every 2min…)

For me, this weekend has been a pretty clear indicator that we can’t make any reasonable conclusions about new metas before stuff really goes live. Right now, we don’t have reasonable numbers for PvE and a lot of things should still be in flux (at least I hope so, because otherwise it would be an amazing level of incompetence).

If (big if) the devs make the right adjustments to certain classes, I can see the meta easily being broken up. One subgroup will probably remain chrono-druid-cPS-2dps in any case, but the second might look quite differently. That will probably depend on whether support firebrand becomes playable under realistic conditions. With the current pitiful state of mantras and, in consequence, quickness sharing, I don’t think it will be a viable alternative, but the necessary changes aren’t big enough to completely rule them out.

SuinegTsol.1729:

So no changes here, but maybe we’ll get a return of rev as supporter, depending on how good the dps increase from his new legend pays out.

I though rev support is tied to herald elite spec. Played that class for like 5 hours so no idea.

I would say the only change in the 2/2/2 support team meta is maybe PS’s can go as spell breaker since their aa chain provides might and the extra critical damage in the breaker trait line might make power ps good again. And maybe—maaaaaaaaaaybe—1 druid/1 rev instead of 2 druids in a condi dps composition.

While a lot of classes got access to quickness, it’s not 100%, nor is it reliable enough to forgo 2 chronos… Plus alacrity.

Only thing im seeing is condi, condi everywhere.

Unless the next raid is literally 4x Overseer levels of dps golem.

Taking into account the obvious bug fixes that will take Soulbeast, Holosmith and Weaver down several pegs.

i hope the meta will change a bit, but 1 druid and 1 crono will never change i think

The only change that seems plausible is a swap of the DPS specs. We can not accurately predict the exact numbers yet but Soulbeast, Firebrand and Renegade might be likely condition DPS options.
In any case, neither the condion META nor the need to bring the big three (Chronomancer, Berserker, Druid) will change.

i think with the new elite we will have so much opportunity, for example can replace 1 crono with firebrand and 1 druid with soulbest, firebrand can be tank and healer at same time, so the crono can go full dps.
wont be META? possible, but can be a breath of fresh air

SoliSnake.9457:

i think with the new elite we will have so much opportunity, for example can replace 1 crono with firebrand

loss of alacrity. Possibly also loss of quickness (it currently depends on a gimmick that may or may not get adjusted before release)

and 1 druid with soulbest

No heal, no GotL.

And as for firebrand replacing chrono as a tank, so chrono can go dps… it’s already possible with all existing classes. Why do you think practically noone is doing that however?

Astralporing.1957:

SoliSnake.9457:

i think with the new elite we will have so much opportunity, for example can replace 1 crono with firebrand

loss of alacrity. Possibly also loss of quickness (it currently depends on a gimmick that may or may not get adjusted before release)

and 1 druid with soulbest

No heal, no GotL.

And as for firebrand replacing chrono as a tank, so chrono can go dps… it’s already possible with all existing classes. Why do you think practically noone is doing that however?

i said firebrand can be tank and healer and at same time provide quickness and for druid GotL effect 10 ppl

It’s still early, but from what I saw, the big issue will continue to be alacrity + quickness. I didn’t see anything this past weekend that will supplant the chronomancer’s role in raids – meaning, most of the time, at least two raid spots will still be reserved for that profession.

Outside of that, Gotl alongside healing and strong ccs keeps at least one spot reserved for the druid.

For might stacking, there are a few potential contenders, but I doubt they will have the warrior’s efficacy – meaning 5 raid slots (2 chronos, 2 warriors/zerkers, at least one druid) will likely remain hard meta.

Looking at dps, we have to wait and see what the final balance numbers look like before we can start talking about potential replacements in the other 5 slots.

Likely means – at least in raids – if you play one of those core professions, you are probably stuck with the same skills and rotations for the foreseeable future – at least in meta groups.

I still contend that moving to a 10 player boon cap (at least in raids) would help alleviate some of this.

Blaeys.3102:

It’s still early, but from what I saw, the big issue will continue to be alacrity + quickness.
…
Outside of that, Gotl alongside healing and strong ccs keeps at least one spot reserved for the druid.
…
I still contend that moving to a 10 player boon cap (at least in raids) would help alleviate some of this.

that realy seems to be the main problem. They tried to remove “tank-dmg-heal” with gw2 and gave us “chrono-dps-druid” 10man boon cap would at least provide some more freedom since you only need one of the must-take-boons/classes.
But honestly I would like a more “role-related” buff system. So when you go for a heal build e.g. in grandmaster trait you get a dmg buff for your party no matter what class your playing, on dps some party might (~8-10 stacks would be enough) and as tank you provide dmg reduction for all around. So everyone would be free to “play what class he wants” regradless the role he need to fit.

Also i’d like to see a remove of aoe alacricity and quickness. Just keep it as a personal buff but nothing you can, want and need to keep up 24/7. (this may need a boss hp drop or overall dmg buff like when they startet to move it down from 100 to 50%…)

Blaeys.3102:

It’s still early, but from what I saw, the big issue will continue to be alacrity + quickness. I didn’t see anything this past weekend that will supplant the chronomancer’s role in raids – meaning, most of the time, at least two raid spots will still be reserved for that profession.

Outside of that, Gotl alongside healing and strong ccs keeps at least one spot reserved for the druid.

For might stacking, there are a few potential contenders, but I doubt they will have the warrior’s efficacy – meaning 5 raid slots (2 chronos, 2 warriors/zerkers, at least one druid) will likely remain hard meta.

Looking at dps, we have to wait and see what the final balance numbers look like before we can start talking about potential replacements in the other 5 slots.

Likely means – at least in raids – if you play one of those core professions, you are probably stuck with the same skills and rotations for the foreseeable future – at least in meta groups.

I still contend that moving to a 10 player boon cap (at least in raids) would help alleviate some of this.

The thing is, they don’t want less players to be able to send out the same amount of boons. I mean, the SoI nerf is the reason we even have this dual class meta.

At least PS War’s can go spell breaker to mix things up as their dagger aa chain has might in it. Will it be more dps than CPS tho? Prolly not, but who knows.

As long as alacrity is a 5man boon 2 chronos will always picked. Some classes, especially cps/condi berserker depend on permanent alacrity for their own effectiveness. Same as tempest/dh/engi and pretty much any class that relies on cd’s and not autoattacks.

Groups can play around no distortions, or even less quickness but alacrity has been intergrated into the composition so much that we need crazy changes for the meta to change.

I’d love to see the meta change, but the devs seem to absolutely love it way too much. The meta pretty much hasn’t significantly changed since launch. There’s been some small shifts with a few classes moving in and out of the meta, but it’s been all about chrono-PS-druid since the first days where players figured out the best group comps.

Sadly, from what I’ve seen, I don’t expect much to change with PoF unless there is some really major changes to the new elite specs between now and then. And this is pretty unfortunate, because they’re really pushing players to burnout with this.

Maybe the devs want to prevent really radical changes so that players who quit and come back won’t have too much trouble readjusting, but that doesn’t do much good if you’re encouraging the quitting with burnout in the first place. (Source: I quit from burnout and recently returned)

2 chronos, 2 druids and 6 scourges? I mean I could see 5 scourge fractal runs being thing for permanent barrier and perpetual condition—→boon conversion, maybe it would work for raids as well?

Dahkeus.8243:

Maybe the devs want to prevent really radical changes

Looking at their “dynamic balancing” method in action, i really doubt that.

Astralporing.1957:

Dahkeus.8243:

Maybe the devs want to prevent really radical changes

Looking at their “dynamic balancing” method in action, i really doubt that.

Well they haven’t given all healers GotL, made all profession specific buffs 10 man (spirits, alacrity), made boons 10 man, removed the 1 second cooldown from empowering might (5 years now of being meh), and other changes that would actually shake up the meta. The last shake up was when they nerfed Signet of Inspiration, and that was for WvW, and all that really did was make the group even worse than it already was. 7-2-1 was way better than 5-5 mirror.

The only radical things that happens each patch are the following:
- Which DPS profession is going to be the best?
- How is power Warrior going to get shafted this patch?
- How many classes is condi PS going to beat in DPS this build?
- Is Rev/Guard viable this patch?
- LOL necro
- Hey the engi rotation got slightly easier.
- What flavor of Ele is top this time around?

Professor Sprout.1560:

2 chronos, 2 druids and 6 scourges? I mean I could see 5 scourge fractal runs being thing for permanent barrier and perpetual condition—->boon conversion, maybe it would work for raids as well?

i’d call this a cheese build, which wont get some kind of meta, sth like old 5guard fotm when it was broken^^.
but talking about funny stuff: 10 deadeyes would realy be a thing. they can get full might and quickness and dont realy suffer from missing alacrity. just one go full mistrel gear for tanking and others kneel around spam their bullets^^ (maybe need to add one druid for healing tank and spirits tough…)

Well here are my odds of things staying meta.

Chrono 99%
There isn’t anything that can bring the total utility of chrono. Quickness, alacrity, invuln, tanking. Nothing else can do it all at once

Ps war (1 ps war 99% 2 ps war 75%)
Banners are too good not to have and warrior still does solid dps and as a might not. Having a single ps war is gonna be all but certain. As for have 2? Maybe not a certain thing. Banners hit 10 targets and with the Condi meta (that I think will continue) empower allies isn’t a must have. If something (or collection of yhings) can bring the might and out dps a ps war in total then there is only gonna be a single ps war in groups

Druid 80%
Good heals, good offensive support (sprits, spotter, gol,) can be decent damage for a healer. Don’t think anything is gonna be able to overtake it but still a chance something could.

nothing will change because most buffs are still for 5 ppl. the only thing that will happen is the dps slot will get expanded with more specs.

idk if renegade can pull off 100% alacrity uptime but assuming it does even then i dont think firebrand and renegade can replace chrono – cc, distorts. i dont think firebrand+renegade can outdps chrono+dps. we’ll see soon enough!

Sublimatio.6981:

nothing will change because most buffs are still for 5 ppl. the only thing that will happen is the dps slot will get expanded with more specs.

idk if renegade can pull off 100% alacrity uptime but assuming it does even then i dont think firebrand and renegade can replace chrono – cc, distorts. i dont think firebrand+renegade can outdps chrono+dps. we’ll see soon enough!

It would be more like Firebrand/Renegade vs. Chrono/Druid since a Rev would need Ventari to keep 100% Alacrity uptime, so they might as well spec heals. Even then you’re using 2 classes to do what a single chronomancer can and losing half your GotL uptime.

I suppose you’d be getting superior healing/projectile denial, but nobody really cares about that stuff.

FB+Rev may get a shot if the numbers are right, since FB support for a condi group is pretty substantial. However, currently I don’t really see that happening, since support FB isn’t even remotely viable at its current state.

narcx.3570:

It would be more like Firebrand/Renegade vs. Chrono/Druid since a Rev would need Ventari to keep 100% Alacrity uptime, so they might as well spec heals.

If that’s the competition then Chrono/Druid has already won because a Druid offers irreplaceable offensive buffs in GotL, Spirits, and Spotter.

“Irreplacable”? They’re quite replacable once you become aware that they replace druid’s own abysmal damage. You don’t get those for free, you get those at expanse of one good dps-er.

Now if we get a healer that can do respectable damage himself, then we’ll be cooking with gas and have a real druid replacement.

So far scourge seems to be #1 competitor for the role, but who knows what else might surface. Maybe firebrand or ventari renegade will have few things to add on their own.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Now if we get a healer that can do respectable damage himself, then we’ll be cooking with gas and have a real druid replacement.

Let’s say that: druids do 2k damage, chronos do 6k damage, ps do 15k, dps do 20k (notice, in a respectable group the numbers can, and often are higher).
That means, that to replace GotL buf, any druid replacement would need to do additional 20k dps while not impacting healing negatively. Just to replace GotL alone, without factoring in spirits and Spotter.

That’s… not very likely to happen.

And, as i already mentioned, my dps estimates were actually quite conservative, so the actual dps numbers that the replacements would need to do would be higher.

You might get away with replacing one druid, because GotL is 10-man, but one (barring some nerfs to those buffs) will have a secure spot in the meta for at least the duration of PoF meta.

People made a conscious decision to sacrafice additional potential personal damage on druids as well as chronomancers to gain all of the offensive tools these builds provide them with. Let’s take a look at the druid:

Some rough calculations
Spotter (+150 Precision per person, on 5)
Glyth of Empowerment (about a 3% increase overall, power damage on 5)
Frost Spirit (about 5.625% overall, power damage on 5)
Grace of the Land (around 6% per druid, on 10 players, max 10% power condi damage)
Sun Spirit (between 200-700 DPS depending on condion damage, per person on 5 based)

All of that comes with the option to switch between healing and condition damage gear. Which turns into an extra 8-12k personal DPS increase from the druid if less healing is needed.

I want to have more options and some new flavors myself, don’t get me wrong.
There simply are no real options to replace the three supports. PoF will not change that. You can bring up a thing or two the new elites will be able to do now. You might even be able to come up with a composition that works well enough without a druid or a chronomancer.
Nobody said you can absolutely not go without one of them. You are already able to do so right now. PoF will give you even more options to pick from if you intend to run without one of the META supports for whatever reason. We can agree on that part.
However, we are not talking about compositions and support roles which might work well enough to allow us to kill some bosses here. We are talking about build efficiency. There simply will not be any more efficient options to replace the current supports. They will continue to be irreplaceable as far as support efficiency is concerned.

Chrono alacrity might be overrated.

For many fights I played with, there is no really 100% uptime of alacrity. 100% alacrity seems to be only common on stationary boss fights. You lose even more when chrono doesn’t take well of recall.

It seems that renegade will bring pretty good source of damage buffs together with access to alacrity. I really feel they may be able to challenge the traditional meta composition.

^ maybe you should play with better mesmers then?

Sublimatio.6981:

^ maybe you should play with better mesmers then?

It’s not just that, most of the alacrity comes from phantasmal avengers who give 2s and with phantasmal haste it attacks every 6s roughly but without it’s 7.6s so not running illusions will impact uptime. More importantly it only applies in a 240 range so any bosses where you’re having to move away and move back will significantly affect the uptime.

I respect you as an excellent player but this comment of yours is incredibly toxic, the guy you’re responding to said that you don’t often get 100% uptime outside of stationary boss fights. I mean please do show me you having 100% uptime on all the bosses in raids, if not at least adjust your current position and state something believable like 80% uptime.

TBH it really doesn’t matter what the meta is unless you are qT and going for record runs. Otherwise, as long as there are some viable alternatives then I think its fine.

One alternative that interests me is to split up the 2nd chrono role into 2 classes. An alacrity giving berserker chrono(24k realstic according to last patch) and a DPS firebrand that can give perma quickness (balance and build pending).

May not be optimal, but could be an option. Still 2 chronos but its a bit of a different flavor.

You could also in theory have a setup where Spotter is not needed, with Guard/Renegade/Theif DPS classes. One less thing that druid isn’t needed for. If spirits were 10 people, then all you’d realistically be losing is 1-2 stacks of GoTL by taking one druid.

1 PS warrior with both banners seems like an option as well considering the amount of might that some of these new specs put out. (Scourge, Firebrand, and Deadeye in particular)

Anyhoo, hoping for some alternatives based on what people want to play and that each setup could be slightly more or less optimal depending on the mechanics of the fight.

i can’t show you on logs 100% uptime because many things aren’t taken into account on buff tables, such as phase switching, invulns, mechanics but if you see on a log 80%-ish you can assume you had about 100% during dpsing

ps. if phantasm has 6-8 seconds to move between attacks, i dont see the issue

ZeftheWicked.3076:

“Irreplacable”? They’re quite replacable once you become aware that they replace druid’s own abysmal damage. You don’t get those for free, you get those at expanse of one good dps-er.

The damage from a Druid is extremely significant. For context, the half uptime you lose on GotL from taking 1 Druid instead of 2 is equivalent to either your Sigil of Force or Berserker rune’s 6 bonus. If you want to go crazy speed clearing, you can have the Druid run a condition build doing over 12k and now you truly have something that no PoF class even comes remotely close to competing with in terms of net team DPS gain. A lot of people just run a ton of healer Druids because it makes up for players mistakes and you don’t need crazy DPS to beat every encounter. The reality, though, is that not only is Druid a safe play, it’s a very strong play even when taken in its safest form. The combination of these things means that nothing in PoF as-is will even come close to competing with it.

About the only comparison worth considering between current meta and probable PoF meta is DPS Chrono/Firebrand vs. Top DPS Class/Quickness Chrono. That has the potential to be really close. Since nothing else can apply Spotter/Spirits/GotL, however, you won’t be replacing your Druids.

Astralporing.1957:

Let’s say that: druids do 2k damage, chronos do 6k damage, ps do 15k, dps do 20k (notice, in a respectable group the numbers can, and often are higher).
That means, that to replace GotL buf, any druid replacement would need to do additional 20k dps while not impacting healing negatively. Just to replace GotL alone, without factoring in spirits and Spotter.

That’s… not very likely to happen.

And, as i already mentioned, my dps estimates were actually quite conservative, so the actual dps numbers that the replacements would need to do would be higher.

You might get away with replacing one druid, because GotL is 10-man, but one (barring some nerfs to those buffs) will have a secure spot in the meta for at least the duration of PoF meta.

Erm…. first off about your math that is, well ..off.
The damage of group you used as example is 126k base.
Druid’s buff is 10% of that. 12.6k. You can’t maintain grace up 24/7 mind you, cause it’s CA exclusive and avatar has it’s cooldown. Unless you got two druids.

So 2k + 2k (two druid’s personal damage) + 12.6k (gotl, 100% uptime).
The replacement needs 16.6k to send both of these boys and their grace of the land home. But if we’re talking two druids why not kick them both out?
If we take for example 2 scourges, assuming they will do around 20k damage each with healing gear (healing power + condi), druids and their buffs are flat out destroyed, spooters, spirits, graces be kitten ed.

And let’s remember – condi + healing on druid doesn’t work. Both condi and healing require access to utility slots and weapon. Compromises make you a mediocre condi whith real kittenty healing and hardly any utility.

No so with Scourge. Necro’s party healing was never tied to a weapon, or utilities save healing skill maybe. Scourge’s “heals” are mostly tied to his F1-F5 skills, traits and healing skill. There’s nothing stopping him from having real condi setup on his weapons and utility slots while still putting out respetcable barriers and occasional burst heal with transfusion or life from death traits. Curses + scrourge + blood magic and you’re golden.

I’m also pondering the renegade, but i’m not that experienced with this class’ capabilities (especially in terms of what you can really put out with energy limiting stuff). Still he does have the ability to have a lot of condi on weapons and F2 skills, while having nearly all the healing on his utilities (ventari). In a raid setup when might generation and generally offensive boons and buffs are covered by your team this may work…but i know too little to speak solid numbers.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

The replacement needs 16.6k to send both of these boys and their grace of the land home.

Is there a reason you’re conveniently skipping the 5-7% power damage gain from Frost Spirit, the 2-4% condition damage gain from Sun Spirit, and the 7% critical hit chance from Spotter all in addition to GotL? Is there also a reason you’ve basically ignored the relevance of condition Druid in your analysis? Most encounters don’t need 2 healer Druids in even particularly bad groups, and can at least run 1 condition Druid.

P.S. If you run enough healing gear on a Scourge for it to actually heal/apply meaningful barrier, its damage is going to be terrible in addition to forgoing all of the buffs that a Druid provides. It’s lose-lose.

Rising Dusk.2408:

About the only comparison worth considering between current meta and probable PoF meta is DPS Chrono/Firebrand vs. Top DPS Class/Quickness Chrono. That has the potential to be really close. Since nothing else can apply Spotter/Spirits/GotL, however, you won’t be replacing your Druids.

See my post above. In reality, we really aren’t all that far off. I don’t think making spirits 10 man is such a crazy suggestion. That could actually happen. Maybe not right at launch, but its possible.

And, with the recent balance patch and PoF specs, there are tons of really good DPS options that don’t need Spotter. See Reaper, Daredevil power DPS, Guardian, Renegade, etc.

With GoTL being on 10 people in CA, a good druid can realistically keep up 3-4 stacks on 10 people. If that is the case you are only losing 1-2 stacks of GoTL by replacing the 2nd druid. If this future scenario (again…which isn’t all that crazy) were to happen, I think replacing a 2nd druid with another DPS class (or hell even a different support class) is totally viable.

Astralporing.1957:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Now if we get a healer that can do respectable damage himself, then we’ll be cooking with gas and have a real druid replacement.

Let’s say that: druids do 2k damage, chronos do 6k damage, ps do 15k, dps do 20k (notice, in a respectable group the numbers can, and often are higher).

If your PS isn’t up there with your DPS, it’s time to find a new PS.

Rising Dusk.2408:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

The replacement needs 16.6k to send both of these boys and their grace of the land home.

Is there a reason you’re conveniently skipping the 5-7% power damage gain from Frost Spirit, the 2-4% condition damage gain from Sun Spirit, and the 7% critical hit chance from Spotter all in addition to GotL? Is there also a reason you’ve basically ignored the relevance of condition Druid in your analysis? Most encounters don’t need 2 healer Druids in even particularly bad groups, and can at least run 1 condition Druid.

P.S. If you run enough healing gear on a Scourge for it to actually heal/apply meaningful barrier, its damage is going to be terrible in addition to forgoing all of the buffs that a Druid provides. It’s lose-lose.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that…

…you are right though, no way is Druid getting replaced based on what we previewed, chances are there would need to be a big shake up of unique buffs in general before you see them replaced even several expansions down the line.

Druid is not getting replaced because of religious belief “he’s the best” without looking at the bigger picture. If we put emotions aside and focus on numbers the answer might be much less druid friendly then one thinks.

But for now that is a “might” as we have yet to get the finalized specs with known new runesets, gear stat sets and access to all of that in PvE. So for now i’ll hold my horses on further discussion.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Druid is not getting replaced because of religious belief “he’s the best” without looking at the bigger picture. If we put emotions aside and focus on numbers the answer might be much less druid friendly then one thinks.

But for now that is a “might” as we have yet to get the finalized specs with known new runesets, gear stat sets and access to all of that in PvE. So for now i’ll hold my horses on further discussion.

Nike summed it up nicely here about why condi Druid is so good at the moment which is also why it won’t be replaced any time soon without significant changes to the buffs it brings in Frost/Sun spirit, GotL and spotter.

To be fair warrior brings equally strong buffs with the banners but all you need to replace a condi warrior is a build that does the same DPS and can stack 25 might and run with 1 warrior now banner affect 10 people reliably.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Druid is not getting replaced because of religious belief “he’s the best” without looking at the bigger picture. If we put emotions aside and focus on numbers the answer might be much less druid friendly then one thinks.

But for now that is a “might” as we have yet to get the finalized specs with known new runesets, gear stat sets and access to all of that in PvE. So for now i’ll hold my horses on further discussion.

Kind of silly to blame this on a religious belief with so many accurate numbers given in this thread. Numbers which make the druid look much better than any alternative.
Interestingly enough, I actually think that it is the other way around. People are getting their hopes up to be able to play their favorite class in a certain role now. While they do not understand all of the reasons and benefits from having a certain META build.
But yes, we can agree to disagree on this one.

The scourge might indeed turn out to be able to DPS like a cberserker and heal like a druid. Unlikely to have both at the same time, but who knows.

Henry.5713:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Druid is not getting replaced because of religious belief “he’s the best” without looking at the bigger picture. If we put emotions aside and focus on numbers the answer might be much less druid friendly then one thinks.

But for now that is a “might” as we have yet to get the finalized specs with known new runesets, gear stat sets and access to all of that in PvE. So for now i’ll hold my horses on further discussion.

Kind of silly to blame this on a religious belief with so many accurate numbers given in this thread. Numbers which make the druid look much better than any alternative.
Interestingly enough, I actually think that it is the other way around. People are getting their hopes up to be able to play their favorite class in a certain role now. While they do not understand all of the reasons and benefits from having a certain META build.
But yes, we can agree to disagree on this one.

The scourge might indeed turn out to be able to DPS like a cberserker and heal like a druid. Unlikely to have both at the same time, but who knows.

To be honest I would just like meta and non meta compositions to be somewhat equatable. Right now druids are hard to replace because of the sheer number of buffs they provide and safety of spirit of nature and healer spec if really needed. Likewise mesmer can bypass certain mechanics in ways no other class can which makes them extremely valuable even if another alternative for quickness/alacrity is introduced.

The only good thing about the raid meta is that most DPS classes are within 5k of each other on small hit box targets. Gets a bit skewed on large but thankfully that’s not a huge number of bosses.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Druid is not getting replaced because of religious belief “he’s the best” without looking at the bigger picture. If we put emotions aside and focus on numbers the answer might be much less druid friendly then one thinks.

Or if you take a look at the facts you might realize the reason druid is meta isn’t because someone believes it is the best, but because it actually is. Don’t get me wrong, there are other classes which can heal just as well. But there is no other healer which increases the party dps this much. In order for even one druid to get replaced, all of its buffs should be either available through other classes or affecting 10 people. It is unrealistic to think of the third option, introduce a healer which can offset the group dps loss with his personal dps. The amount of personal dps required for that would make it flat out broken.

This makes me sick.
At World of Warcract if the druid heal is a bit overpowered, most raid groups won’t care if they don’t have one. All spec are welcomed, all you need is 2 tanks, 3 healers and 5 DPS. Even in mythic difficulty. Raid group setup only mates if you aim the first kill server.
This is why if I really want to raid I stop to play GW2 and come back to WoW, where the raiding community is more reasonable.
You should question yourself concerning your so great meta which makes flee so many players.

Again, it’s not about the heal. It’s about the party dealing 20%+ more damage or not. Which is an amount that always matters. It will always make things noticeably easier and smoother. It’s not about the community, or the game, or the raids themselves. This is just how the balance is. If you think the players in WoW are so much different, you’re wrong. Players are the same everywhere. It’s the game that’s different and it’s the game which creates the different results. If you want the status quo to change, I already said what needs to happen: either the class-specific buffs of the Druid become available to other classes or they start affecting 10 people. Well, or they get nerfed into oblivion.

In WoW, you used to have similar mandatory buffs that meant some classes were always taken, while others never were.

The solution there was spreading the buffs around.

Zefiris.8297:

In WoW, you used to have similar mandatory buffs that meant some classes were always taken, while others never were.

The solution there was spreading the buffs around.

I’d definitely prefer spreading buffs around to the current, well, horrible balance. They don’t need to have the same name (for our RPers), but be mutually exclusive.

Zefiris.8297:

In WoW, you used to have similar mandatory buffs that meant some classes were always taken, while others never were.

In fact since the first xpac, Burning Crusade, I don’t remember that a class wasn’t allowed in a competitive raid group. Only some “pvp” spec, like frost mage, weren’t. Even in vanilla I don’t think some classes weren’t allowed, but i didn’t raid in vanilla, so i’m not sure. And since Cataclysm (third xpac) all spec are competitive and allowed in raid.
I dislike many things at WoW, but its raid balance is far better to GW2. And classe roles were more logic since the beginning, on contrary to what we see in GW2. At WoW all heavy armor classes can tank while the light armored casters cannot. The mesmer situation is a joke in this game.

+1 to what you said CptAurellion.

The renegade is one such possiblility. If they could share their Kalla’s fervor buff (up to five stacks for others mind you) with their party, at the price of GotL and Kalla’s fervor being mutually exclusive (one destroys the other and vice-versa), we could really loosen up the hinges of this rusty old meta and give many new comps a try.

Got a renegade in party (be it healer, power or condi)? Then you can have your druid do something else then being mandatory healer/support. Pretty sure ranger can still be good condi, and soulbeast a viable tank.

Or if no ranger? No need to wait for ages for druid! Guard, ele, heck even renegade himself can be the healer now:3

Zefiris.8297:

In WoW, you used to have similar mandatory buffs that meant some classes were always taken, while others never were.

The solution there was spreading the buffs around.

Yea, the druid is really like Shaman in early WoW days when they were the only ones who brought Bloodlust.

WoW solved this by giving the Bloodlust buff to other classes, but right now the buffs druid bring are exclusive to that spec and stack on top of whatever other classes bring.