Guild Wars 2

xDudisx.5914:

#spoj

They are reworking the way condis work for HoT.
Poor blind access? Plague form, well of darkness, etc..
Poor vuln acess? The new specialization will have plenty, also well of suffering.

Not every class needs to be the same. We have plenty of classes that bring blast, fire fields and reflect. If it does not fit your playstyle then reroll. Don’t expect them to make changes based on a very specific and niche build like dungeon zerker speed runners. Leave your bubble.

Yes they are finally fixing some of the issues. My point was that they are bad currently. Because you implied necros are fine now. Which isnt true.

Plague and well of darkness have really high cooldowns. And plague prevents you from doing anything else while using it. They are outclassed by what other classes have.

Utilities don’t exist in a vacuum, they are relative in strength to each other. A class with fire fields and might and vuln stacking is better than a class with dark fields and vuln stacking.

Utility was not created equal. It’s why ranger is not meta despite having utility.

Problem is ele/warrior/thief/guard not only have expansive utility, their practical dps also blows the other inferior classes out of the water.

I always think positive, and think they’ll either buff the shouts or make them instant again (or at least some of htem), excluding the elite.

“leave your bubble”

heh

xDudisx.5914:

Phadde.7362:

xDudisx.5914:

@Phadde.7362

The class balance is mostly focused on pvp. Pve are just a side effect. Fun is subjective, what you think is fun to play others might think it is not.

Well, unless that means that they almost completely neglect PvE, It’s hardly the full story.
Fun is indeed subjective, but it would seem that the fact that the profession is sub-par to this extent would mean a huge reduction in enjoyment for the general PvE player, no?

Necros are very important in wvw.
Necros are viable in spvp. People have own anets tournaments using 1 necro on the team comp.
Necros can play any pve content in the game.

Yes they might not be optimal for speed runs but that is not mandatory for the game. If you just want fun you wouldn’t mind taking a few seconds longer to complete a dungeon.

Thanks! Although I tend to agree with spoj with the matter of their usefulness, this made it a bit more clear to me.

I’m more curious as to what kind of feature “group challenging content” we’ll be getting. After all, the Reaper was designed for PvE in mind. Just look at the last PoI, many of the terms are PvE oriented and the guy showcasing it AKA Robert Gee has been heavily PvE oriented since GW1.

Just look at the abilities and how they scale up with more surrounding targets, since when are people in sPvP (which this game is balanced around) gonna consciously swarm a reaper knowing the up scaling factor it has?

Put him into map like Court Yard, Foefire and Stronghold.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I think Ranger would be much closer to meta if their melee weapon of choice didn’t bounce them off of cliffs like a rabbit in heat. And for what it’s worth, party buffs and being able to contribute to Might/Fury/Vuln would certainly help the Necromancer’s case.

Well, hopefully the sword will get a rework. And hopefully it looks something like this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Why-the-current-sword-needs-polishing

xDudisx.5914:

They are reworking the way condis work for HoT.
Poor blind access? Plague form, well of darkness, etc..
Poor vuln acess? The new specialization will have plenty, also well of suffering.

• Reworking the way condis work for HoT won’t make the Necromancer any better at applying them.
• Plague and Well of Darkness are both terrible; the former drops your DPS to near-zero and the latter wastes a utility slot for at best 5 seconds of AOE blinds that the Thief or Ele can easily out-do.
• They will not be keeping Bitter Chill or a number of the other overzealous vulnerability applying traits that they’ve added as they are come release. This will, however, get a bit better in HoT regardless so that’s good.

xDudisx.5914:

Not every class needs to be the same. We have plenty of classes that bring blast, fire fields and reflect. If it does not fit your playstyle then reroll. Don’t expect them to make changes based on a very specific and niche build like dungeon zerker speed runners. Leave your bubble.

No one is asking for fire fields or even reflects. Asking for a blast finisher or two is not unreasonable, and adding a projectile absorb is also not unreasonable. Just because the classes are different doesn’t mean that one, by design, should be useless. That makes fundamentally no sense, and is the very antithesis of proper game balance.

Anyway, I can speak for ANet a little bit here when I say that they agree with Spoj’s opinion, and they are currently making some changes I think you guys will like. The core reason we haven’t yet seen so many of these changes is, really, because of PvP/WvW. It has nothing to do with the class’s design. Necromancer is very strong in WvW and has incredible burst DPS in PvP. They don’t want to create Dhuumfire Mk. II and want to gradually try to phase the buffs in. Regardless, the forum specialists have been pushing them on the matter of the Necromancer, and that is what inspired the Blood Magic re-rework and a few of the other changes, so stay tuned.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Anyway, I can speak for ANet a little bit here when I say that they agree with Spoj’s opinion, and they are currently making some changes I think you guys will like.

Oh boy~
You mean something that hasn’t been mentioned yet?

Jerus.4350:

NikeEU.7690:

What group buffs does a meta party need? You don’t need Might, Fury, or Vuln. If you mean some unique buff like Spotter you can ask Ranger how well that works out for them being part of the meta.

Necro just needs a low cool down blast finisher, a fun rotation, and comparable dps to every other profession.

Might = PS War
Fury = Ele
Vuln = group as a whole, Lightning Storm/DH guard/Engi/really lots of options
Projectile = Guard/Mes and other little things from the group

So yeah, exactly.

It’d be nice for their overall party worth, but in the meta you already have the main things covered.

How about a party damage boost?

Like, make signet of vampirism actually be good for damage?

When they implemented signet of vampirism, it seems they didnt want to make it too powerful, so now it’s almost useless for damage and provides mediocre sustain.

They could make it simpler and more effective: when active, all party members drain life for 30% of the damage they deal, for 8 seconds. Only 10% (for example) of that life heals them.

There, you have a nice burst skill, that only necros can provide, wihout giving necros the offensive buffs that don’t go well with the profession. The equivalent to rangers spotter or frost spirits.

Axelwarrior.9084:

Oh boy~
You mean something that hasn’t been mentioned yet?

The rework they mentioned in the livestream does not end with the couple changes they noted. I know there’s more to it than that, just not what the actual changes themselves are because they are still WIP. Suffice it to say that it should be good and fit in the offensive support category.

I’m looking forward to those changes, but I dread that they may nerf the Reaper right before the release of HoT, or shortly after release.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Axelwarrior.9084:

Oh boy~
You mean something that hasn’t been mentioned yet?

The rework they mentioned in the livestream does not end with the couple changes they noted. I know there’s more to it than that, just not what the actual changes themselves are because they are still WIP. Suffice it to say that it should be good and fit in the offensive support category.

Any more hints you could offer us? :>

Rising Dusk.2408:

• They will not be keeping Bitter Chill or a number of the other overzealous vulnerability applying traits that they’ve added as they are come release. This will, however, get a bit better in HoT regardless so that’s good.

Oh? This is a little disappointing. That trait seems like a really good one. I can understand that 5 vuln stacks might be a bit too much. But I would like to see it remain as a no ICD vuln stacker equivalent to blind exposure in functionality.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Anyway, I can speak for ANet a little bit here when I say that they agree with Spoj’s opinion, and they are currently making some changes I think you guys will like. The core reason we haven’t yet seen so many of these changes is, really, because of PvP/WvW. It has nothing to do with the class’s design. Necromancer is very strong in WvW and has incredible burst DPS in PvP. They don’t want to create Dhuumfire Mk. II and want to gradually try to phase the buffs in. Regardless, the forum specialists have been pushing them on the matter of the Necromancer, and that is what inspired the Blood Magic re-rework and a few of the other changes, so stay tuned.

Very encouraging to hear. And the lifesteal aura is a good piece of evidence supporting that.

Aenesthesia.1697:

Jerus.4350:

NikeEU.7690:

What group buffs does a meta party need? You don’t need Might, Fury, or Vuln. If you mean some unique buff like Spotter you can ask Ranger how well that works out for them being part of the meta.

Necro just needs a low cool down blast finisher, a fun rotation, and comparable dps to every other profession.

Might = PS War
Fury = Ele
Vuln = group as a whole, Lightning Storm/DH guard/Engi/really lots of options
Projectile = Guard/Mes and other little things from the group

So yeah, exactly.

It’d be nice for their overall party worth, but in the meta you already have the main things covered.

How about a party damage boost?

Like, make signet of vampirism actually be good for damage?

When they implemented signet of vampirism, it seems they didnt want to make it too powerful, so now it’s almost useless for damage and provides mediocre sustain.

They could make it simpler and more effective: when active, all party members drain life for 30% of the damage they deal, for 8 seconds. Only 10% (for example) of that life heals them.

There, you have a nice burst skill, that only necros can provide, wihout giving necros the offensive buffs that don’t go well with the profession. The equivalent to rangers spotter or frost spirits.

I would be a huge fan of a lifesteal on crit aura like EA/SPotter but as we can see from the Spotter example that in and of itself wouldn’t be enough to get into the conversation. The key is comparable DPS, a fun rotation and a blast finisher for QoL. If you got the lifesteal aura but had bad dps, 111111 rotation and no blast finishers people still wouldn’t care, so I look at the three things I cited as sorta the minimum needed to get on par.

spoj.9672:

Oh? This is a little disappointing. That trait seems like a really good one. I can understand that 5 vuln stacks might be a bit too much. But I would like to see it remain as a no ICD vuln stacker equivalent to blind exposure in functionality.

I don’t know the exact form this trait will take, but I strongly pushed for it to retain no ICD.

@Nike: Those ideas are right in-line with the suggestions a number of forum specialists have been pushing for, so hopefully we’ll get at least that.

If only bone minions werent so clunky to use for blasts. That would be one less problem.

Rising Dusk.2408:

spoj.9672:

Oh? This is a little disappointing. That trait seems like a really good one. I can understand that 5 vuln stacks might be a bit too much. But I would like to see it remain as a no ICD vuln stacker equivalent to blind exposure in functionality.

I don’t know the exact form this trait will take, but I strongly pushed for it to retain no ICD.

Good to hear. Hope they listen. I think a lot of us have been stressing our resentment for ICD’s on these sort of traits. They totally destroy traits. Just look at empowering might on the guardian.

spoj.9672:

If only bone minions werent so clunky to use for blasts. That would be one less problem.

Be nice if the activate would blast on you rather than on them.

Looks to me like fun DPS rotation is covered with Reaper. Big fan of Nightfall → Reaper shroud burst → back to GS at 50%, spam gravedigger until dead. Without knowing the coefficients/second it feels like it’s going to be pretty competitive especially once the target hits 50% and Close to Death and Gravedigger start going to work.

Well i worked out the coefficients. And we have stream footage to get estimations of cast times and aftercasts. If gravedigger spam is about 1.5 seconds (cast time is 1.25 seconds) repeating then its a coeff per second of 1.35. Which isnt far off lava font + fireball. But then ele has a lot more damage modifiers.

spoj.9672:

Well i worked out the coefficients. And we have stream footage to get estimations of cast times and aftercasts. If gravedigger spam is about 1.5 seconds (cast time is 1.25 seconds) repeating then its a coeff per second of 1.35. Which isnt far off lava font + fireball. But then ele has a lot more damage modifiers.

Mhh that would mean spamming gravedigger does a more dps the dagger auto? Somehow i was under the impression that daggerauto still would give higher dps but i also thought that gravedigger was slower then 1,5 seconds…

I’ll reserve judgment I guess. Even a small inaccuracy like it being 1.4 in stead of 1.5 seconds with cast and aftercast would make a huge difference in dps calculations so I’m hopeful it will land in a good place.

Yeah. Its mostly guesswork. I dont predict dagger to beat gravedigger spam. But i do expect it to be a better pure damage auto above 50% health. But we might end up auto attacking in Reapers Shroud instead. And never need dagger again except for the immob and maybe lifeforce.

spoj.9672:

Yeah. Its mostly guesswork. I dont predict dagger to beat gravedigger spam. But i do expect it to be a better pure damage auto above 50% health. But we might end up auto attacking in Reapers Shroud instead. And never need dagger again except for the immob and maybe lifeforce.

Curious, what would your weapons swap be with Greatsword? My impression is it used to be staff for max lifeblast (not sure on theory so don’t kill me if I’m mad wrong), seems like GS covers that, what would you intend to use as your alt weapons?

spoj.9672:

Yeah. Its mostly guesswork. I dont predict dagger to beat gravedigger spam. But i do expect it to be a better pure damage auto above 50% health. But we might end up auto attacking in Reapers Shroud instead. And never need dagger again except for the immob and maybe lifeforce.

Yeah I was envisioning a rotation like…

1. Start in d/f, use Reapers Touch, well of suffering
2. Swap to gs, Nightfall
3. Enter deathshroud, use whatever skills are best for dps (probably spin and autos?)
4. Go back to GS at 50% and spam GD until boss is dead.

Well it was previously dagger focus and warhorn. And we wouldnt use Lifeblast unless using DS build. But yes now we have GS for DS damage (assuming the damage calc in DS remains the same). So it just means the alternative set will be an opener set or a utility set. Which means dagger focus in most cases. Use warhorn 5 before you get into combat then equip focus. Start fight by casting focus 4 and start your GS, RS rotation.

I would be very sad if Warhorn phased out of the meta because it’s my favorite Necromancer weapon currently. Having to swap it in like that would also be kind of annoying. Oh well.

You could be lazy and just run dagger warhorn and not bother with focus. Warhorn would be mandatory of AOEing and for opening so its not really being phased out. :>

yeah you can still deal 12 vuln with GS3 skill and the rest will stack in RS just by aa and the other vuln-aoe every few secs trait

i would probably lead off with focus5—>4 for the starting chill since if you just immedietely swap to gs after #4 and use nightfall—>ds ur target doesnt have chill on yet. While in pve chill uptime will be easy id still rather have that starting chill for 3 procs of chilling force+however many procs you get from it from nightfall pings before you would be able to get a chill applied after entering ds.

While we will most likely be running sigil of ice it is only a 30% chanc eon hit so you could miss a couple trait procs before it applies.

but of course warhorn would be better in any aoe situation since aoe chill—>locust swarm would be 5 chilling force procs a sec, and of course aoe dmg.

Focus 5 is too slow. There will be plenty of other ways to open with chill. You can immediately swap to GS > RS > Chill field. Or you can place staff marks down on the spot the boss is going to be pulled to before getting in combat. Or people can open with an icebow 3. Or we can trait for chilling darkness and drop nightfall immediately. There are so many ways to get that chill on right at the start. You will probably never need focus 5 unless you want to strip some boons.

RS 5 > RS2 > RS4 = frost aura and tons of chill projectiles
RS3 used for fear = another chill

and no, we wont use ice sigils.

though still as an opening attack, focus 5 wouldnt be bad imo. worse if you want to use it midfight

I get the feeling that Reaper will be VERY meta. Huge AoE damage, and GS#4 is a permablind. Easy Max Vuln applications, too.

Also, condi is finally being fixed. Epidemic might be OP once the update goes live.

It will be strong and people probably wont kick them as much anymore. But saying it will be meta is a bit of a jump at this point. What we have seen so far isnt quite enough to put it as a top pick. But with considerable number tweaks and better content that is definitely a possibility. Mainly thinking about content that requires epidemic or an AOE sustain bruiser to make things go faster.

It’s a shame that the Spite trait Vuln on chill competes with a 5% damage boost. Necros need all the % damage boosts they can get so that means a really synergistic trait gets pushed aside.

Am I the only one thinking they still need evades/blocks or at least vigor?

Jerus.4350:

Am I the only one thinking they still need evades/blocks or at least vigor?

Thief will be granting party-wide vigor with high % uptime when the specialization patch goes live.

They do yeah. Although necro has never really been a problem in groups for defence. Its easy for other classes to make up for their shortcomings. Its just annoying to have to rely on that.

And yeah Bitter Chill versus Spiteful Talisman is kind of annoying. But we still have Death Shiver in spite master slot. So vuln isnt completely gone. If you swapped them then you take away chill of death + bitter chill synergy.

I suppose you could swap Death Shiver with Spiteful talisman. But then you lose Reaper’s Might + Death Shiver synergy and Spiteful Talisman + Chill of Death synergy. Its not really an option to keep all combos when theres so many good traits in that line now.

I think Bitter Chill and Spiteful Talisman both need to be in a different tier to Chill of Death. Because they are direct synergies. So the only option to get spiteful talisman and bitter chill at the same time is if you move one of the three traits to grandmaster and the other to master. And if that was going to happen it would have to be chill of death that moves to grandmaster. Which isnt actually too bad of an idea.

So an idea for reshuffled traits would be:

Adept
- Spiteful Talisman
- Reaper’s Might
- Axe Training

Master
- Bitter Chill
- Death Shiver
- Signet Mastery

Grandmaster
- Chill of Death
- Close to Death
- Spiteful Spirit

This maintains all synergies. And orders them in rows. Top row is your chill and boon strip row. Middle is your pure damage. Bottom is your axe and signet stuff.

Only problem with this is PvP players are going to complain about losing Chill of Death + Close to Death. Then again Chill of Death has always been very strong in PvP. This might be a good way to keep it in check slightly.

NikeEU.7690:

Jerus.4350:

Am I the only one thinking they still need evades/blocks or at least vigor?

Thief will be granting party-wide vigor with high % uptime when the specialization patch goes live.

The problem is the reliance on your party as spoj said. Just seems silly that the selfish profession has to rely on others.

It seems a little too solid. I prefer the “smack a trait here and there at random, making sure they’re fool proof and have no synergies that may confuse new players” style by anet.
Funny how necros rely on everything from their teammates, vigor included. Even thieves have more support /laugh

Technically Necros don’t have to rely on their party for Fury or Might if they don’t want to.

Although it would be OP as hell in PvP imagine a trait like.

“Aura of Misery: All enemies within 600 range of the necromancer have their endurance regeneration reduced by 15%. the Necromancer gains 15% faster endurance regeneration per enemy affected to a maximum of 30%.”

Suggestion:

Instead extra 50% crit chance from death perception when on death shroud make it give aoe 250 precision+250 ferocity (could be a different number). Similar to the way spotter and EP work.

Just give them Orders. Would it be so impossible to balance in pvp? Jerus Christ? Are they so understaffed that they’re terrified of anything that might shake their precious esportz pvpz leetz in favour of pve?
Like, +x damage for y hits, partywide. The heal signet is pathetic, but it might make sense if coupled with Orders, provided the icd doesn’t make it useless. You make them like in gw1 with a health sacrifice and long cast time but low cd, so you can’t just spam them, and then rely on an improved life steal to sustain your order casting.
Nahhhhh, ok, JAGGED HORRORS! wooohooooooo

Too late to complain now, you’re already getting these awesome shouts. /sigh
2s cast time, are you even joking…

I dont think the issue is that orders would be OP in pvp, its that they wouldn’t be playable at all. Without pure healers the concept of saccing HP to do anything is dubious. So unless you just change them to buffs that don’t require a sac it’s hard to envision them being played. At that point they just become Thief venoms except better in every way.

They don’t have to be a copy of gw1’s orders at all, but I struggle with this rigid, pvp-oriented balancing that leaves little room for the concept of “each class has some skills being strong in pve/weak in pvp and vice versa” and instead enforces a “some classes bring so little in pve, despite not being underpowered in pvp”. Perhaps it’s the reduced amount of skills that causes it and not the balance, perhaps it’s me being stupid and a gw1 nostalgic, but it still stinks.

It makes sense for guards to get a line and spec that – supposedly – helps them in some areas (surely not in pve, hm…); even mesmers got a buff to aoe damage, which they lacked. I thought it was going to be the same for necros. In anet’s mind, the damage/cc buff may very well be everything necros needed to “shine”; totally fine by me, the game isn’t mine. I only wish they stopped being such ezporterz …
Trying to be positive, who knows? might hint at the presence of very strong trash mobs in hot. Who am I trying to fool—ahem, whatever.

Anyway, venoms being kittened is another symptom of this pvp illness, imho. I still don’t think that they’d be the same as orders due to the venoms’ instant casting time… but what’s the point? We’re getting shouts. Shouts it is.

I find shouts at their current state to be… meh? unimpressive? and, due to their own nature, don’t strike me as “fun” to have in the skill bar.
Why do I feel like they do the exact same things as wells, just with more ccs instead of dealing damage? Same long cds… same ol’. Will they play the same? Some of them even look weaker than wells, with longer casting times… /shrug

As long as it’s not a liability and your guard is good. As long as everyone’s comfy with relying so much on chill… chill… meh. It’s ok. As long as the new bosses aren’t immune to it… LOL… Excuse me…

I’m not sure that’s what’s driving their design guys.

Good boogyman though.

NikeEU.7690:

I would be a huge fan of a lifesteal on crit aura like EA/SPotter but as we can see from the Spotter example that in and of itself wouldn’t be enough to get into the conversation.

Spotter works all the time. What i propose is to turn signet of vampirism into a big burst boosting skill. Make it that, for short fights, a party with a necro ends the fight 30% faster (for example). The overall party boost damage would stil be below 7%, but for when damage spikes are needed, necros would fit perfectly into the meta.

NikeEU.7690:

The key is comparable DPS, a fun rotation and a blast finisher for QoL. If you got the lifesteal aura but had bad dps, 111111 rotation and no blast finishers people still wouldn’t care, so I look at the three things I cited as sorta the minimum needed to get on par.

Hey, i cannot go against a fun rotation, and a low cd blast finisher (preferably as a weapon skill) would do as great service. However, comparable dps would still mean and a fun rotation will still have us being unwanted in dungeons. And even a low cd blast wouldn’t mean that much. We need those things as well, but we would not be candidates for the meta with just those changes.