The new AC...
Everyone shouted the same exact thing after launch, give it 2 months and everyone will have either figured out how to do the dungeon properly (which will be a tiny percentage) or will have learned to skip half the content or know the rudimentary basics to stay alive long enough to brute force the encounters.
The dungeon is NOT hard, it’s just different. Maybe also for once people will stop thinking full on berserker gear is the bees knees and get some vit/toughness going.
•— Fay Everdunes | Fay Erduna | Lilyfay (Fay.2735) — Mesmer/Revenant — [NA]FA — 8k±Hrs Played —•
• Have you heard of the city? The ancient uru? Where there was power to write worlds •
• Have you heard of the city? The ancient uru? Where there was power to write worlds •
The dungeon is NOT hard, it’s just different. Maybe also for once people will stop thinking full on berserker gear is the bees knees and get some vit/toughness going.
Millionth time: do it in a PUG party comprising of nothing of low levels and make a video with it, preferably with at least 1 noob. How is vit toughness going to help since every stat is downscaled as well?
Also as mentioned higher up in the thread, the defend Kholer part has become harder for most (hint: my main is a mesmer, kiting isnt that big a deal for that particular profession, and same goes for skilled elementalists IMHO).
The proof is in the pudding: GW2LFG.com. Filter out AC Exp.
Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.
Millionth time: do it in a PUG party comprising of nothing of low levels and make a video with it, preferably with at least 1 noob. How is vit toughness going to help since every stat is downscaled as well?
Also as mentioned higher up in the thread, the defend Kholer part has become harder for most (hint: my main is a mesmer, kiting isnt that big a deal for that particular profession, and same goes for skilled elementalists IMHO).
The proof is in the pudding: GW2LFG.com. Filter out AC Exp.
A. it was hard in pug groups back around launch as well give it 2 months time as I said for general public to catch on then it will be a lot easier again
B. vit/toughness keeps people up longer rather then fall over at the slightest gust of wind
C. Kholer is 10 times easier now then it was before O.o
•— Fay Everdunes | Fay Erduna | Lilyfay (Fay.2735) — Mesmer/Revenant — [NA]FA — 8k±Hrs Played —•
• Have you heard of the city? The ancient uru? Where there was power to write worlds •
• Have you heard of the city? The ancient uru? Where there was power to write worlds •
(edited by Fay.2735)
The forums are not always a true indication of the majority of players.
Send Everyone an in game mail asking One Simple Question:
Ascalonian catacombs , More enjoyable pre-change Or post-change?
When the result is post-change then i will believe that i am in a minority- until then i firmly believe i feel, as do the majority of players.
I know 3 people in my guild that will answer quite simply, they don’t know.
why? because they won’t do dungeons anymore. One evening of frustration, and they consider dungeons a no go, same with fractals.
I don’t know if this is working as designed, having people not experience content. But if that’s Anet’s goal, it’s working great. AC level of difficulty as a introductory dungeon is kitten Full on kitten
Lizsy Borden (wvw): Darkhaven
I know 3 people in my guild that will answer quite simply, they don’t know.
why? because they won’t do dungeons anymore. One evening of frustration, and they consider dungeons a no go, same with fractals.
I don’t know if this is working as designed, having people not experience content. But if that’s Anet’s goal, it’s working great. AC level of difficulty as a introductory dungeon is kitten Full on kitten
If people give up after one night of trying then that says more about them. I remember how long some of the dungeon paths took us back at launch with our lower levels/not knowing tactics. It took us days to get searing effigy down pre-nerf. Now if it can’t be done in 10 minutes time it’s ‘too hard’ and ‘not worth the time’….
•— Fay Everdunes | Fay Erduna | Lilyfay (Fay.2735) — Mesmer/Revenant — [NA]FA — 8k±Hrs Played —•
• Have you heard of the city? The ancient uru? Where there was power to write worlds •
• Have you heard of the city? The ancient uru? Where there was power to write worlds •
A. it was hard in pug groups back around launch as well give it 2 months time as I said for general public to catch on then it will be a lot easier again
B. vit/toughness keeps people up longer rather then fall over at the slightest gust of wind
C. Kholer is 10 times easier now then it was before O.o
A. Problem is the people who got all their Gear wont run AC anymore and lets face it GW2 new players arent going be as many as there were at launch, thus no more large PUG base. Once they lose interest, its on to the next game.
B. Only ever so slightly.
C. Kholer isnt the issue. Its not 10 times easier if you already know how to beat him. Its the other issues like the trash knockdowns etc.
I mean come on, theres no need to convince anyone that new AC isnt a dud. Give it two months or 2 years at status quo, there will be much fewer players doing AC. But Anet go ahead listen to the minority.
And its been a week. So much for a week for people to learn new mechanics etc.
P.S You know why I know some elitists suck? This guy I was pugging with was saying learn to dodge and got mauled to death by the AC gravelings. Win.
Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.
(edited by Khal Drogo.9631)
A. it was hard in pug groups back around launch as well give it 2 months time as I said for general public to catch on then it will be a lot easier again
B. vit/toughness keeps people up longer rather then fall over at the slightest gust of wind
C. Kholer is 10 times easier now then it was before O.oA. Problem is the people who got all their Gear wont run AC anymore and lets face it GW2 new players arent going be as many as there were at launch, thus no more large PUG base. Once they lose interest, its on to the next game.
B. Only ever so slightly.
C. Kholer isnt the issue. Its not 10 times easier if you already know how to beat him. Its the other issues like the trash knockdowns etc.I mean come on, theres no need to convince anyone that new AC isnt a dud. Give it two months or 2 years at status quo, there will be much fewer players doing AC. But Anet go ahead listen to the minority.
And its been a week. So much for a week for people to learn new mechanics etc.
P.S You know why I know some elitists suck? This guy I was pugging with was saying learn to dodge and got mauled to death by the AC gravelings. Win.
A. I run AC because it’s fun and I know a lot of other people do as well. That or to help newcomers learn the dungeon.
B. It does make a difference especially if you’re low level it gives you a larger margin of error for most encounters an additional second to respond.
C. If you are talking about the champion stalkers. They were in the dungeon before, Just don’t go near them and use teleport/blink/stability etc. to get away from them when you get knocked down as you’ve always had to do with the stalkers who were already in the dungeon (Which I guess most people wouldn’t know as they run past everything).
They aren’t listening to a minority they are not budging because they know people will eventually learn to do the dungeon properly just like they did around launch + They are planning to revamp all dungeons eventually. I personally can’t wait to see more interesting fights like the new end bosses in AC.
•— Fay Everdunes | Fay Erduna | Lilyfay (Fay.2735) — Mesmer/Revenant — [NA]FA — 8k±Hrs Played —•
• Have you heard of the city? The ancient uru? Where there was power to write worlds •
• Have you heard of the city? The ancient uru? Where there was power to write worlds •
(edited by Fay.2735)
They aren’t listening to a minority they are not budging because they know people will eventually learn to do the dungeon properly just like they did around launch + They are planning to revamp all dungeons eventually. I personally can’t wait to see more interesting fights like the new end bosses in AC.
B. Wow one second. ie not that much difference.
C. I think its defend Hodgkins , Detha and the ecto collecting machines with the knockdowns increasing their difficulty, not enemies which u can skip. You can always read the other threads.
I guess we shall see. GL to the majority of ppl who share your opinion. See u around in 2 months.
Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.
(edited by Khal Drogo.9631)
I am seriously considering reactivating my WoW account. I really LOVE the artwork and the general world in GW2. But both PvE class balancing (engineer, necro, ranger) and ANets attitude (gtfo non-hardcore gamers) makes it very bitter for me.
Make no mistake, it’s perfectly fine to have very challenging dungeons, really. But ignoring new players isn’t fine.
As it stands I won’t recommend GW2 for anyone who is used to run dungeons as a method to level up and gear up.
GW2 dungeons = only for properly geared level 80s
Explorable mode is supposed to be a challenge, if you want to do a dungeon introduction, do story. Colin Johanson said this himself in London with gw2guru, Dungeon explorables are considered hard-mode.
Then the game should make this VERY clear! Like let non-level 80 players not enter.
If ANet’s position is that dungeons are ONLY for level 80 players then they should communicate this well. This way things wouldn’t be so confusing.
Then the game should make this VERY clear! Like let non-level 80 players not enter.
If ANet’s position is that dungeons are ONLY for level 80 players then they should communicate this well. This way things wouldn’t be so confusing.
I am an experienced player but I think my lvl 37 ele will have a hard time getting a party in P2.
both PvE class balancing (engineer, necro, ranger)
Actually not really for engi and necro. Go to their forums for tips on how to play them. Condition builds for any class is another matter though. As for ranger, I think it is really of little use whether be it PvE, WvW or PvP except for RP and noob players. Ranger needs a total revamp to be viable over any other profession at lvl 80 imho. If you are going for DPS, u go for warrior, if you want support or a special mechanic (eg stealth), u go to other professions.
Apologies to those who may find my posts on GW2 forums offensive and hateful.
(edited by Khal Drogo.9631)
What they should’ve done was
1) When talking to Grast, a player gets a shield generator bundle that can be used to protect the party from the rocks.
2) When talking to Hodgins, a player gets a scepter capable of generating the fire fields to toast Gravelings.
The “stupid” NPCs should not be allowed to play such an important “do-or-die” part, plain and simple.
I can do thirty Five-Dolyak Arm Curls.
Do you even lift, bro?
Do you even lift, bro?
Lol i ran all 3 paths past change. With at least 2 other guildies every time.
It was challenging but not difficult. We had to learn how to use the traps, popping stability and invulnerability at howling and to never ever stand in spiders web shot.
And that’s it really lol. We even did it with a 38 thief a 35 ranger a 80 necro a 46 mesmer and me (80 ele). Guildrun. Everyone’s experienced to a certain degree. It wasn’t that hard lol. Just after we managed to figure out what to dodge and when to attack we were beating it.
Stop crying over a lost easy AC rush and finally get used to the fact that arenanet’s improving the dungeons with every new update.
GJ arenanet. Keep up that good work!
The forums are not always a true indication of the majority of players.
Send Everyone an in game mail asking One Simple Question:
Ascalonian catacombs , More enjoyable pre-change Or post-change?
When the result is post-change then i will believe that i am in a minority- until then i firmly believe i feel, as do the majority of players.I know 3 people in my guild that will answer quite simply, they don’t know.
why? because they won’t do dungeons anymore. One evening of frustration, and they consider dungeons a no go, same with fractals.
I don’t know if this is working as designed, having people not experience content. But if that’s Anet’s goal, it’s working great. AC level of difficulty as a introductory dungeon is kitten Full on kitten
If you are low lvl it’s better and faster to go exploring and doing events anyway. That’s the definition of “experiencing content”.
Lowbies flooding dungeons makes some low lvl zones deadzones and that’s bad for the game.
What they should’ve done was
1) When talking to Grast, a player gets a shield generator bundle that can be used to protect the party from the rocks.
2) When talking to Hodgins, a player gets a scepter capable of generating the fire fields to toast Gravelings.The “stupid” NPCs should not be allowed to play such an important “do-or-die” part, plain and simple.
Well, technically the Jellyfish Boss is the one that electrocutes the cages in the Underwater fractal, players don’t get to choose. Just treat it like another environmental effect. Hodgins is fine, but Grast needs some work due to his long cast time on irrelevant skills.
All new stuff in dungeons is going to be hard for the first few days. We see it all the time with new content – people fail and get knocked down when they aren’t used to that sort of thing, and they claim it is too difficult.
Give it a week or so for everyone to develop strategies, learn encounters, and build fundamentals, and they will claim it is too easy. Trust me when I say this, the numbers are punishing (but less than they were before), but knowing the mechanics will greatly mitigate the danger.
You guys are starting to get a very bad reputation for designing broken encounters and mechanics that don’t work. Every AC dungeon I go to players are bad mouthing Arenanet developers for incompetence. Bugs, broken mechanics and fake difficulty.
Yes fake difficulty.
Make a boss attack every second and give him knockbacks and knockdowns on every single one of his attacks. Here’s the best part, make a friendly NPC AI that is central to the encounter. Good thing this NPC is as dumb as a door knob and dies in 3 hits.
Probably the worst dungeon design I have ever seen.
Welp got all my guides up for new AC. It took a couple runs to figure out the new mechanics, but there are ways around things and it’s really not that hard.
Obviously a pug isn’t going to have the exact organization a guild run has, but there is a ton of leeway between my guides and actually failing.
Spider Queen is pretty simple once you figure out her moves and strategy.
You can mitigate the annoyances of ghost eater in path 2 by using pull moves and just lifting the ectos when they get into the white ring. Pretty much every class has ways to move mobs, easiest of which are mesmer temporal curtain and guardian greatsword.
I agree Grast is unreliable in path 3, luckily it brings meaning to interrupts and you can mitigate the boulder attack by simply stunning him and using control actions to remove 5 stacks of defiant in between which really isn’t that bad.
The devs actually attempted to make AC more interesting and require more thinking and mechanics to successfully complete them, which is a start in the right direction. Granted there are a few bugs/kinks to work out, but overall new AC is fine. Everyone complaining just doesn’t want to use their brain and wants an easy mindless run that you can do on 35s in subpar gear, which is terrible since dungeons are suppose to require teamwork and more skill then overworld encounters. If they made it easy for every 35 pug, then anyone organized or any 80 group would just blow through it again without even paying attention which is what happened before.
Sorry you actually have to use your brain and some teamwork now.
Guard/War/Mesmer and Dungeon Guides:
https://www.youtube.com/user/strife025
https://www.youtube.com/user/strife025
I hope Anet changes the path 3 boss again. I did it a couple times now, like 5 times. Managed to complete 3 out of 5 and failed 2. The problem was Grast doesn’t spawn the shield in time because of him having a hammer the 3th swing has to be removed, or give him a sword instead. The hammer affects his respond time too much. I now don’t do path 3 anymore because it happens too often Grast not responding to the ceiling coming down in time. further there is no problem at all just Grast needs to be changed. Might aswell just not let him attack and only let him spawn his shield so he will do it in time. Hope you guys from Anet read this and do something about it
Path 1 was alright, the only “issue” was protecting the useless NPC while closing the burrows, all that was needed was to not run past him with the mobs trailing you or they change agro onto him.
Path 2 last boss was just a bad joke and left a rotten taste in my mouth, you’re expected to lift up with 1 person and then drag the mob in with the other all at the same time of having that boss throw down 3 painful AoE rings all the kitten time whilst also constantly attacking you, if you do it to slow then he absorbs all of the mobs that spawn and regens some health back.
I refuse to spend hours now to do an instance that was FINE before the change, just because the devs thought it was too easy, all I want to do is simply get my gear the same way I have been previously and then continue with WvW, not do these painfully boring instances with crappy gimmicks that makes it “hard”.
Learn2dev, don’t fix what wasn’t broken.
Here’s a thought:
A boss fight should NEVER be decided by a NPC, whether it works properly or not.
I agree you might want a dungeon to test our skills as players, but don’t make the fights being decided by a stupid AI.
New AC seems fine to me. Did it with my guild and while it wasn’t a cakewalk, whatever failures we had were due to not knowing what to expect or bugs (path 3 boss is NOT OK… because of unpreventable unpredictability).
I handled the new Queen Spider just fine, but the other members of my party were getting crushed. Once we did path 2, it was back down to a science and much quicker to take down than pre.
Graveling hallway: learned quickly that the group was changed so there’s one Champion Scavenger and no regular ones. This just turned the Breeder into a higher priority target, and the Champion was no longer a faceroll pathetic Howler that occasionally knocked people back for weak damage.
New Ogre: more annoying and less annoying for different reasons. Can be completely shut down with anti-projectile skills.
New Kholer? Much easier. Complaining about adds? You must be used to luring Kholer away from his adds and not dealing with them. The adds were a minor and temporary nuisance pre, and now they’re not so temporary and just less than constant, but even less of a nuisance since they’re weaker. Get rid of them fast and focus fire on higher priority targets and get back to focusing on Kholer.
Path 1: Graveling burrows were new, and regular gravelings are now practically Scavengers. Even so, if you had the necessary DPS to destroy burrows before, you can do it just as easily now.
Boss can’t be fought from the stairs. This can only be a good thing. People have to lure adds to fire wells, making the NPC actually important. Good. Boss spams an annoying but not particularly lethal howl more often. No longer a cakewalk, but not even close to impossibly difficult.
Path 2: Spike traps are unchanged. Pre-boss, there are more ghost spawns but the ghosts are weaker. Not very different from before. Old version you would still get destroyed if you had two bad players that didn’t know what they were doing or defiantly refused to attack what was marked for focus fire. New boss requires some coordination, but it’s not really that active. Set your roles, get a system going. Pair up or whatever works. Realize that more oozes spawn when you hit the boss and don’t hit the boss needlessly. This was only mildly annoying because one of the traps bugged, but this also made it easier to charge the trap the boss was trapped on. May have been longer, but we had a LOT of fun with this fight and made Ghostbusters jokes throughout.
Path 3: Breeders no longer spawned from the burrows. This made it easier for our designated clean up crew. The boss is terribly broken and the only thing I agree with everyone about. Anyone that claims the boss is easy was lucky, simple as that. The only safe way to do this fight is with ridiculously high DPS and getting the first shield bubble to pop up correctly. Because the second one will NOT.
I shouldn’t have to be lvl 80 in exotics to run a level 35 dungeon… that is what Arah is for. Please please please please give us back our lowbie easy dungeon.
Hi.. The 2th week after launch i did a few dungeon explo mode.. me and my guildies quickly came to the conclusion that this never ever will work and will be nerfed for sure.. I was in general very dissapointed in the end PvE content (lack of teamplay, skill, bugs etc. etc.) and put gw2 in the freezer for like 5 months.
Recently is came back and all explo modes are a joke compared to what i saw right after launch. However i now like the dungeon more then before.. sure the end PvE content is still as bad as before my break but at least you can now actually complete a run and pretty much add any pug to your party.
AC old style was a perfect dungeon for me.. all paths in like 40-60 min and everybody was welcome. Now it just takes way to long and with pugs 1 or more will most likely leave.. then the run is pretty much over becuase this game lacks a basic dungeon system.where you can simply replace people.
So maybe Anet wanted more challenge/teamwork in a dungeon.... but then i really doubt if they ever play this game with actually people to see how people play this game. Teamplay imo in this game is basically single play but then you you have 4 other people with you. The whole cross combo fields are all random and really nobody in any pug group uses this effectively in a team/organized way. I don’t find that strange at all becuase thats basically how the devs have designed this whole game.. no holy trinity and everybody does his own thing....result solo playstyle.
So i really don’t understand any change from any dev at anet when they try to makle end content more challenging and "force" teamplay on you... and the teamplay in the new AC is not even skill/profession based.. All changes imo on this matter will only result in even less people playing dungeons.. i mean go now to AC wp and look how few pug groups now play it... i would say it dropped with over 80% after this overhaul..
My advice to Anet.. is that if you really want people to have fun and challenging PvE teamplay.. then make some major modifications on the whole cross combo system. This can give teams a way to really operate as a team and use signergies. Then it maybe also can feel like you play as a team and not like it is now.. "ow yeah there are 4 other peeps with me.. but w/e as long as they use their heal skill and dodge it will be fine."... i mean.... really makes no scence at all to me when you do dungeons in any MMO.
Regarding to AC new.. did the paths but will never do this with pugs agian.. i simply do not want to spend any time into something when you know almost certain that at some point you have to go spam in GC, MC or go to gw2lfg to find a replacement.. i mean the funfactor of this is really zero... so instead of spending (pointless) hours on dungeon overhauls.. use the time to design a simple system to teamup with people for dungeons.. i mean the site gw2lfg is a great thing... but something like this has to be a build in feature...
So in general i maybe put gw2 back in the freezer.. did all explo modes of most dungeons now also.. the difficulty is much better/less frustrating then before but i miss real teamplay..and all the unused potential in the whole cross combo system... i am not the person that likes camping those dragon events or grinds endless hours for some shiny weapon.. fun/challenging end PvE TEAMPLAY is what i like.. but still sadly not something that i see in the dungeons atm.. hopefully someday.
All new stuff in dungeons is going to be hard for the first few days. We see it all the time with new content – people fail and get knocked down when they aren’t used to that sort of thing, and they claim it is too difficult.
Give it a week or so for everyone to develop strategies, learn encounters, and build fundamentals, and they will claim it is too easy. Trust me when I say this, the numbers are punishing (but less than they were before), but knowing the mechanics will greatly mitigate the danger.
Isn’t that what players already did for AC? We developed strategies to make it through the dungeon and so it seems it was changed so now we have to do it all over again and I’m in AC path 3 and Grast is bugging so it’s pointless in the state it’s in.
I’m still trying to figure out what the goal of this redesign is.
Also when will the loot be adjusted for the new difficulty?
I also love how we get rumblus to half health and he regents all his health.
Is GW2 a game or a virtual casino?
Hello,
I am by no means an advanced player. I am a “new” or “inexperienced” player. My highest lvl toon is a 50 necromancer. Three nights ago, I ran through AC Story with a random group and had a great time. I think we had 2 80’s, and I was on my necro (lvl 44 at the time). It was a lot of fun.
Last night, I decided to try getting a group together. Our group consisted of a lvl 80 warrior, a 69 guardian, myself (49 necro), a 49 ranger, and a 39(?) mesmer from my guild. Three or four of us had only been in AC once or twice (myself included). 2 of us had never done an Explorable mode dungeon (myself included).
So we did Explorable mode, and picked path 3, not knowing the difference (we’re normal, inexperienced players, just wanting to experience the game). We never made it past the room with the respawning graveling burrows, where you have to protect the two collector thingies.
We wiped about 5 times on the Spider Queen, and once or twice in between her and the room we never got past. We wiped several times in the respawning graveling burrows part, trying several different strategies.
We ended up just giving up. Everyone had a good attitude, and we were working together to come up with different ideas about how to beat it, and just couldn’t do it (probably about 2 hours spent). We just decided to disband, and we were all on good terms with each other.
My point is, I don’t see how the new AC Explorable Mode is a good starting out dungeon for newer/inexperienced players trying to get their feet wet in the world of the GW2 dungeon experience. Do I think we had an “advanced” player in our group? Probably not. Do I think we had a bunch of noobs that didn’t know anything? Nope. Could we have ended up beating it if we kept trying? Honestly, probably not last night. Maybe if we kept regrouping over a few nights we could, if we tried respecs, and optimizing our gear/spec according to what the new AC Exp calls for.
But is that what the new AC Exp should be? Personally, I think a random group of inexperienced to moderately experienced players that are actively communicating and having good attitudes should be able to beat the first dungeon in an MMO. Just didn’t happen for us last night.
Just some food for thought from me. Thanks for reading!
I’m personally fine with dungeons being made tougher/re-balanced for the sake of those players who derive more satisfaction out of a challenge, and I appreciate that the Explorable version of a dungeon is naturally more difficult than the Story alternative, largely due to the consideration than one should probably play and master the latter before the former. I’m also fine with accepting that I’m not a particularly skilled player and that it’s entirely possible that I could, with experience and practice, overcome the unsuccessful run that I had last night at the new AC content.
But I do think that there’s an issue with effectively communicating the intended skill level these revamped dungeons require, because regardless of the skills and experience that the designers had in mind for the new AC, the result is a dungeon that seems quite drastically separated from the actual mechanical limits on who can enter – and who is encouraged to enter. The danger here is that far from being challenged and learning from their time in a dungeon, novice players – players that you might want to encourage to stay in an activity – could be overwhelmed and leave with a sour taste in their mouths. I don’t have an issue with a dungeon being rebalanced to rely more on skill than equipment/bug abuse/exploit abuse, etc, but the experience should still be about learning at that level, and I’m not convinced that new players will be learning anything besides that their time is best spent doing something else. I spent a considerable amount of time unconscious on the floor last night, and I couldn’t really engage with the experience from that position.
Personally, I’d love to see a system in dungeons similar to Fractals whereby the chosen level impacts on the relative difficulty of the dungeon and the quality of the loot, but perhaps in a way that doesn’t potentially segregate folks as Fractals has been accused of doing. And I’m by no means suggesting that loot should be drastically increased in quality (or decreased), just that content requiring greater skill might be considered to be worthy of greater reward and vice versa. Because the message ’you’re not good enough to do this yet’ seems a bit out of place in a game that encourages casual, relaxed play as much as GW2 does without alternative options, and options are always nice to have – such as the option of being able to earn Tears at a lowered rate because I’m not very good at pressing buttons.
Behold: Opinions!
I’m a casual player and I love the new difficulty. The notion that casual = averse to difficulty or unskilled needs to die.
Also keep in mind explorables were supposed to be the “elite” content. Story mode, with all it’s issues and feel of being kinda neglected, was to be the beginner difficulty for dungeons, even at the lower levels.
(edited by Jamais vu.5284)
Hello Anet, I feel with these new changes you should introduce a Hard Mode due to the fact that not everyone is a advanced player, and this is the first dungeon. I refuse to even pug lvl 80’s anymore due to the changes of this dungeon, i understand the need to make things on par with other dungeons however at what cost? So i will restate my opinion and believe you should create a Hard Mode and an Easy Mode. Hopefully you will read my post and give it some good thought because it is NEEDED.
I’m a casual player and I love the new difficulty. The notion that casual = averse to difficulty or unskilled needs to die.
Also keep in mind explorables were supposed to be the “elite” content. Story mode, with all it’s issues and feel of being kinda neglected, was to be the beginner difficulty for dungeons, even at the lower levels.
A lot of the problem I see with Arenanet and these lower level dungeons, is the feel of these (CM especially) are more and more geared towards level 80, geared players. CM and AC are “supposed” to be designed at lower levels to be more towards lower level players, to identify how dungeons work and progress from there. At their current point in this game, they have gone from pretty good and challenging to downright annoying, more difficult (but doable) and not FUN. The Howlers that burrow underground, pop up and then go invincible – not fun. It’s lame, annoying, and just drags on the already painful experience of a dungeon that makes me just cry for the lower level players that go through this place.
CM is just… so terrible at this point, there really is no reason to ever run this as your first dungeon.
You (Anet) could have gone about these so many different ways to make them fun and challenging enough for all levels, but for some reason, you chose to think that stupid, annoying, ridiculous, one-shot wonders is a challenge and fun.
In AC, the new Cave Troll event is a prime example of stupid. I used to love to get this guy up in a group. Now, I avoid it like the plague and encourage everyone else to do the same. It was fine the way it was – fun, challenging, and not a one shot hit. It still took skill, knowing how to play your character and knowing what the mob will do so you could avoid (or try to avoid) being hit. Now, he just fears you off the ledges, or literally one-shots you (and I am nowhere near being a glass cannon type player).
Please – re-think your strategy of what you think is fun, because it isn’t a clear definition of the word.
Now don’t get me wrong – other dungeons are actually fun, and I run them more than I ever will the lower level ones. Arah for example – it’s a great dungeon and I never thought that I would ever run that place. Now (before the changes were made) I got my Dungeon Master title, we run it all the time, and even go with players that have never been there before on almost a daily basis. We feel really bad though for those going through CM and AC – they are trash. They were really fun and we had a good time before they got all jacked up. It’s like you are almost punishing players for playing the game and that is really and truly sad.
I’m a casual player and I love the new difficulty. The notion that casual = averse to difficulty or unskilled needs to die.
Also keep in mind explorables were supposed to be the “elite” content. Story mode, with all it’s issues and feel of being kinda neglected, was to be the beginner difficulty for dungeons, even at the lower levels.
If ANet’s intention is for Explorable Mode to be considered elite content, I can get on board with that. I’m totally fine with continuing in story mode dungeons. I’m thinking I will be sticking to story mode with PUG’s, and maybe only try explorable with guildies.
That said, is it true that ANet’s intention is that Explorable Mode is considered “elite content”? What does that mean, exactly?
So i have 5 80’s I would say im fairly advanced. That being said when I play I like to get stuff done im fast as I work alot so I have about 2hrs a night to play or so. Anyways I loved running AC i could nock it out fast so the time/reward was good for me. As I said im fairly busy but I still play and I am a very good player I run support builds I very rarely go down let alone die. Heres my problem with the new AC I have no problem staying alive its the other 4 people I have to worry about. I can dodge stuff I can move alot of times they just arnt quick enuff. So they Die and then what happens im faced with restarting the fight cause im still allive, finish the fight cause i can it will just take 30mins or dyeing so everyone can respawn. That wastes soooo much time and for somone who is limited its a huge turn off. Thats why i dont run Arah I know some people can do it in 30mins or less “some”. the problem is when you have minimal time to play you cant always run with your “guilds group” or your friends just cause they have lives as well and arnt on at the same times. so you pug one you never know what your going to get. the way its set up now there is no room for error you have 1 weak link in your group your completion time just jumped up. I personally would have no problem with Longer dungeons where i could run fewer in my time if the rewards were increased as of right now the way AC is set up it should be 100tokens instead of 60 cause its just that much more difficult. anyways if they keep increasing times in dungeons and still rewarding 60 tokens which is a joke for 45mins-hr time when i can get 60tokens from some runs in 15mins. Ill be forced to quit cause the one thing i enjoy doing in the time i have will not be enjoyable anymore not for just 60 tokens.
Today I’ve decided to give this new AC a try with my guild fellows.
I’ve read different opinions here on forum and I wanted to test this out myself.
To be honest…I never raged so much…
Spider Queen wiped us 2 times…though we went past her and started doing Hodgins part for the scepter. And this is the part which annoyed me greatly. To be honest, I felt like a ball…even with stability on, it doesn’t last too long, its recharge is terribly long and you again end up being tossed all over the room. We failed that a few times…so we decided to change our approach there…taking different professions. Nope…still the same. In guild we all cooperate greatly, have great attitudes and are in great mood…but we just couldn’t help but give up here.
I am an average player…and I am quite busy in real life. When I come to game…I intend to relax…and personally, I enjoyed old AC. It was challenging enough for a level 35 dungeon…sometimes teams don’t succeed if they aren’t well coordinated etc etc…
Now level 35+ don’t stand a chance unless they have hours to waste on this…
This is supposed to be the FIRST dungeon, where you will actually experience that enjoyable taste of challenge inside the dungeons.
If explorable mode was for ‘’elite level 80’s’’ then why was it put as “Explorable level 35”? I understand that some people want ’’challenges’’ and ’’hardcore’’ gameplay. My dear folks…how many dungeons are there? Let’s see…Arah? It can last over 5 hours. Isn’t that challenging enough?
Also there is a difference between challenge and being wiped again and again and paying for armor repairs over and over.
Thing which bugs me is the fact that you can’t play the way you want anymore…and I dislike how everything in this game is turning into gear grind and ’’stats’’.
I have to say that I still love the game, and I have to congratulate Arena Net for making it so wonderful in many other aspects. I enjoy PvE, music, story etc.
Though as a player who doesn’t have much time to play, I am finding myself ’’behind’’ a lot now…and now it seems that new players aren’t so welcome anymore…especially low levels in dungeons.
I personally don’t mind bringing lower levels with us in team…in fact, I always allow guildies to bring their alts to dungeons and level them up…but ‘’one weak link’’ in dungeons now can cause the chain to break…I am not finding it fair towards lower levels at all.
The ideal solution would be Normal and Hard mode. Normal, where rewards are lesser than in Hard mode. Hard mode, for those who want it super hard, but with better rewards.
Also, storymode dungeons should be able for solo play.
AC was also the only dungeon which I could do without spending hours in it.
I know some will say “Go do storymode then”. Why would I do that? I did it already and I am not satisfied with rewards there…and neither do I get tokens.
I repeat again. It is a level 35 dungeon, it should be made for level 35 players…how can they complete this when even level 80’s with great gear fail?
I will probably try doing AC again, but to be honest…I don’t see the point of dungeons where you will end up raging and screaming at other people because they made a mistake or just aren’t good enough…I always avoided dungeons in other games just because of that…I don’t need additional stress…and I can say that I am lucky to lead a guild full of people with great attitudes…
Feanor
For the cave troll, fight him at the area in front of Hodgin’s flame path. You won’t fall off the ledge (if your cond skill is on CD). That is if you want to fight him. Or Kholer will gladly help you. And he won’t 1-shot you if your dodge properly. That is dodge when he’s coming down. Not when he’s going up. Or count 1-2-3 when he starts his animation then dodge as everybody here keep saying that’s how you dodge.
People are too serious of their knowledge.
(edited by SkyChef.5432)
Did Robert apologize for AC yet? I haven’t been following this thread.
Did Robert apologize for AC yet? I haven’t been following this thread.
Lol, more of set up a pre-emptive “I told you so” moment.
RIP in peace Robert
For everyone talking about people complaining it’s too easy, what fractal level are you on? I quit on level 48 two months ago because the rewards are trash.
Now on to the real point of why your AC changes indicate that Robert has no idea what he is doing. People play MMOs because they are social. AC was the perfect social dungeon – want to bring 1-2 lowbies? No problem, the other 3 of us will played geared 80s. Try that now.
I was wondering who would make such direct comments on the Dev and then I saw you mention fractal levels, and then I recognized your name. If my memory serves me right you are the tanky tanky Asura guardian I ran into a few times during level 40+. I wouldn’t go into the details of why I remember so clearly, but I’ll just say, fractal level isn’t really indicative of actual skill sometimes since a lot of people got to level 40+ doing the same 3 of the 9 fractals over and over again without seeing the rest.
Also, you know, sometimes you might just happened to have gotten in a group group.
[PLUM] – SOR
I am as well disappointed on the changes that were made to AC. Even when it was easy, before the new patch, you would see spamming in map chat like this: “LFxM AC path x, lvl 80 full exotic only.” At the moment instead, all the teams ask for 80’s in full exotic gear, even asking you to link what you got before being allowed in team. I find this tremendously unfair, mostly because we’re talking of a level 35 dungeon, the first one, not of CoE or Arah.
Now, I’ve been reading several comments on this thread and I feel to say a few things.
The difference between AC story and explorable, speaking on difficulty, is too big to be able to say AC story is enough for a player new to dungeons to get into the entire dynamic of them. If explorable modes in dungeons are the “LvL 80 version of story mode” as some of you said, it should mean that only story mode should have a lower suggested level, all the explorable should say (Suggested LvL 80) and let 80’s play keeping their lvl 80 stats, not lowered in level as it happens.
If you think AC was too easy for you to be interested in it, I doubt anyone ever forced you to go for it anyway, for there have always been enough way harder dungeons, where to find your challenge and test your skills, so I do not justify those people who kept complaining about it to be too easy.
It is certaily personal, to find this changes too hard, though as far as I can see, there are many and many people complaining about this, and just very few praising and “loving” the changes. This shows that average players, no pro and hardcore, definitely find it harder than they could enjoy.
I am no pro, no hardcore, I do not brag myself. I am average player and when I run a dungeon I want to find it a pleasant experience, not a nightmare that only ends with rage, people leaving team, insults and so on. This kind of things totally drags me from running any dungeon, since I am a pretty sentitive person.
The certain thing is: If you implemented “Normal” and “Hard” mode, as Blur suggested, all kind of players would be finally satisfied; first timers, lower levels would have the chance to learn and set their first steps into an explorable dungeon, casual players would be able to play the way they like and pro players would test their skills.
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O°v°O
O°v°O
For everyone talking about people complaining it’s too easy, what fractal level are you on? I quit on level 48 two months ago because the rewards are trash.
Now on to the real point of why your AC changes indicate that Robert has no idea what he is doing. People play MMOs because they are social. AC was the perfect social dungeon – want to bring 1-2 lowbies? No problem, the other 3 of us will played geared 80s. Try that now.
I was wondering who would make such direct comments on the Dev and then I saw you mention fractal levels, and then I recognized your name. If my memory serves me right you are the tanky tanky Asura guardian I ran into a few times during level 40+. I wouldn’t go into the details of why I remember so clearly, but I’ll just say, fractal level isn’t really indicative of actual skill sometimes since a lot of people got to level 40+ doing the same 3 of the 9 fractals over and over again without seeing the rest.
Also, you know, sometimes you might just happened to have gotten in a group group.
Hi! Yeah that’s me, how have you been? In general I agree that it’s not a direct indicator of skill level, but between the stuff we have in game I’d say that high level fractals, particularly being there 2 months ago is one of the better indicators we have. But that wasn’t my point. There are some people in this thread that are saying “l2p, dungeons should be challenging, this game is too easy” etc. I was illustrating that many of these people haven’t done anything actually difficult (high level fractals) and are failing to distinguish between starter dungeons, regular dungeons, and hard dungeons.
Sorry if I couldn’t find the right words to explain it.
I’m at 49, 40, and 26 fotm on my 3 mains and find the new AC very easy once you figure out the bosses. They all die even faster then before because with the increased mechanics challenge, they decreased their health.
To me, story mode is the beginner mode which the devs have been advertising since release. Explorable requires more teamwork and actually thinking and using specific strategies for certain parts or bosses.
If you have teamwork to handle the mechanics, the bosses die faster now. Granted it took a couple run throughs of each path to figure things out, but I feel like alot of people just give up once they fail thinking it’s too hard and it should be nerfed instead.
Guard/War/Mesmer and Dungeon Guides:
https://www.youtube.com/user/strife025
https://www.youtube.com/user/strife025
(edited by Strifey.7215)
I know 3 people in my guild that will answer quite simply, they don’t know.
why? because they won’t do dungeons anymore. One evening of frustration, and they consider dungeons a no go, same with fractals.
I don’t know if this is working as designed, having people not experience content. But if that’s Anet’s goal, it’s working great. AC level of difficulty as a introductory dungeon is kitten Full on kitten
That is what I am up against. Now I would go in and bang my head a least a bit more, but they won’t. I don’t recall this ever being an issue with any other mmo, where we were afraid to do dungeons, because of it being frustrating and probably just quitting and being a big waste. This is a first. Sure it maybe on us, but we just got bushwhacked on this one, didn’t see it coming. They weren’t kidding when they said hard mode content lives in the dungeons. It’s more like a choice of Super Silly Easy Open World and Masochist Dungeon Mode. Each need to normalize more towards one another imo.
Someday perhaps I’ll get us through it and good and I’ll be on the side of it’s too easy… learn to play. It’s not totally impossible.
I’m a casual player and I love the new difficulty. The notion that casual = averse to difficulty or unskilled needs to die.
Also keep in mind explorables were supposed to be the “elite” content. Story mode, with all it’s issues and feel of being kinda neglected, was to be the beginner difficulty for dungeons, even at the lower levels.
If ANet’s intention is for Explorable Mode to be considered elite content, I can get on board with that. I’m totally fine with continuing in story mode dungeons. I’m thinking I will be sticking to story mode with PUG’s, and maybe only try explorable with guildies.
That said, is it true that ANet’s intention is that Explorable Mode is considered “elite content”? What does that mean, exactly?
What they actually said was more along the line of “…for coordinated teams,” and “…skilled players.”
I’d be fine with story mode also, except that there are minimal rewards. Dungeons in every game that have them are repeatable content, and repeatable content with little to no reward does not get repeated. In GW2, only the explorable dungeons have worthwhile rewards attached to them. Essentially, only hard mode dungeons are worth redoing. This leaves a void for players who prefer more relaxed, team-based instanced content.
I’m also fine with explorables requiring a learning curve, but I can see why people dislike that learning curve. Re-learning the new AC has not been fun.
That spider room might be the best fight ive come across in the game so far. Lots I havent done yet. It cant be glitched or cheesed (at least so far) and it just has to be beat the hard way. I admit that I have used Robert Houdra’s name in vain in there.
the old AC was fine. the final bosses needed new mechanics, but that was it. I find it fine now after getting used to the changes, but I still feel that these changes were pointless and the mission of making the end bosses more challenging/better is still not accomplished. path 1 boss may as well be exactly the same as before. the only strategy you need still is to whack him in the kitten until his HP runs out. path 2 and three were so bugged (fixed now) but the third one can still be crazy as NPC AI is horrible and he doesn’t always use his shield at the right time. if anything, maybe they should have implemented these changes in a new “hard mode” or something. I still think Anet simply wanted to trim down the AC traffic, which they have definitely accomplished with the update.
the dungeon that needs immediate and big revamping is that ridiculous CoF. path 1 is literally (no exaggeration here) 7-10 minutes with a moderately slow group and with the ever popular 1 mesmer/4 warrior zerker party, it’s as quick as 4 minutes. it’s a total joke. path 2 was better until the change at the spot where you have to buy time for magg. it was somewhat of a challenge before, but no longer. path 3 is also very easy imo.
and the ghost eater takes way longer to kill now thanks to the new mechanics. the fight was CoF level mindless before. I honestly haven’t noticed kholer, spider queen or any end boss having less HP. mostly because they were never a problem anyway. they seem to die in the same amount of time. kholer also seems to do next to no damage now. certainly alot less than he did before. what’s up with that? supposed to be more challenging right?
All new stuff in dungeons is going to be hard for the first few days. We see it all the time with new content – people fail and get knocked down when they aren’t used to that sort of thing, and they claim it is too difficult.
Give it a week or so for everyone to develop strategies, learn encounters, and build fundamentals, and they will claim it is too easy. Trust me when I say this, the numbers are punishing (but less than they were before), but knowing the mechanics will greatly mitigate the danger.Did you guys play test with a group of 35s in level 35 gear? As much as I personally love the changes, it seems to be a bit rougher, especially if the group is at or close to the minimum stated requirements for the dungeon.
With all the bugs in the new patches / dungeons Anet releases, you seriously think they play test it? HAHAHAHAHA
Edit: Of course they do test them, but they are just terrible at their jobs as they would rather release sloppy work than take the proper time to do it right. Amateurs.
(edited by Roman Legionary.6715)
To me the only improvement is the Ghost Eater fight, that always seemed like a boss that was rushed and not finished, and the ghostbuster thing is very clever and fun.
Original AC was loved by all; it was a great dungeon to grab whomever was around, hop on voice chat and talk while playing. It was a great mix of rewards (<3 AC tokens), timing, and occasionally scary moments (Kohler, scavengers, etc.).
I would have rather seen 1 new path added to dungeons rather than the dungeon itself redone. My idea for AC path 4 was to make an underwater path in the pool under Kohler’s tower. That way, Kohler (and troll) can still be done, and the other 3 paths remain. That’s actually adding something.
To take a higher level view, why was one of the most popular dungeons target for a re-work instead of another dungeon? That is analogous to Mercedes deciding to refresh its car line-up, and starting with the highest selling model – obviously a bad business decision.
Having a spread of difficulties is the best idea. There are a lot of people in the game, and a lot of people that I like and like talking to and socializing with while I play, that are at different skill levels. I’d like to have a few dungeons where I can grab these people and not have to weigh cost/benefit.
Spider Queen
Standing still, not paying attention, and staying too close tend to get you killed. I can deal with that.
- Why do the tiny spiders hit so hard? Tone it down. They all drop at the same time, roughly 75% of them attack at the same time, and they usually target the first 2 people to engage, who tend to die shortly after.
Cave Troll
He fights more like Kholer: one major attack to dodge. Plus he’s more susceptible to damage and there’s less running in circles. A better fight all around. Nice changes. No complaints here.
Kholer
- It seems that most of the doors surrounding Kholer’s area are closed until he’s dead. GOOD
- I used to walk up the stairs, then hide from his scorpion wire. It was the first attack he did. It was unforgiving and disorienting for the new player, especially when it would likely kill them. It was just irritating to more experienced players. Thank you for changing that.
- The extra mobs are fun. Adds more teamwork to the fight. And well, the team is there, so might as well utilize em.
Kholer vs Troll
I’ve always had an issue with this. The first time I saw them fight, I was amazed for like 10 seconds. If it weren’t for it seeming stupidly clever, tricking a giant troll to attack a powerful ghost, I’d be completely against it.
That Graveling-Focused Chunk
So it doesn’t matter if its shutting down burrows or stopping a Charr from getting torn apart, this may need to get toned down. The main issue is the knocks. I’ll address this later.
Howling King
Its a more interesting fight. The howl is a more visible thing. This is a major improvement. I have a love-hate relationship with the fires, but they aren’t the problem. Once again, the knocks.
Ghost Eater
This is probably my favorite fight in the game right now. A new gimmick, important tooltips, and even a good reason to control critter spawning. But…
- Detha breaks periodically. And the quick-fix? You get her killed by critters in the previous room. Lets say your team has killed everything in your path and she bugs out. The team is punished for being thorough? I don’t know why its still a bug, but a NPC breaking at the last boss is a game-breaking, progress-stopping issue, that gives risk vs reward new depth. Even choosing path 2 is the risk.
- The boss is mostly a ranged attacker. This makes some form of aggro control or manipulation more important. Why not a new attack on the gun for a high-powered blast to knock the boss. Add a temporary knock-resist buff after he’s been hit to avoid abuse. Allow more teamwork to happen.
Colossus Rumblus
Interesting changes. Not sure if they were necessary, but interesting. I like where this is going. Though the fight is currently won via luck or exploitation; not skill.
- The Warmaster’s protective bubbles are a great mechanic…when they work. Sometimes the Warmaster forgets to use his bubble because he’s attacking, he’s been knocked down, or he’s dead.
Not to mention the Warmaster is a ghost and Tzark is a necromancer ~ can’t Tzark do some sort of spell that keeps him out of the fight, but keeps the Warmaster “alive”? Something needs to be done so this is more approachable.
Old Issues
- Gravelings and knocks. First, the Priory, who have been dealing with the gravelings, should warn players that gravelings love knocking people down and mauling them to death, but even then, there’s just too many knocks. The number of times a player gets knocked, even with factoring in a stability skill, is insane. Stability skills have a longer cooldown than a single graveling’s knock, and we fight hoards.
- The biggest issue all dungeons is scaling. A Hard Mode is not necessary. AC Exp is recommended for level 35 characters. The experience should be catered, from the ground up, to a band of fresh level 35 characters. This means they might have elites, they probably won’t have a lot of trinkets (if any), and they might have a few pieces of rare gear. And I’m not saying that just QA or an in-house team doing the dungeon together will suffice. ArenaNet, you have an entire player-base at your disposal. Having QA organize AC runs with various players, both experienced and new, is a great way to get feedback AND get involved. Advertise these events, connect with the players, share results openly. And if possible scaling should be something that changes based on the people in the party and their levels, maybe even their gear. If three 80s, a 65, and a 35 run AC right now, I’m willing to bet the 80s may have some trouble, the 65 will have even more, and the 35 will have an intimate relationship with the ground.
All in all, great changes have been made that reinforce teamwork, game mechanics, thinking, and actually doing content instead of skipping it. There’s still plenty of bugs and issues that cheapen these changes or, in more severe cases, make them nothing more than good ideas and NOT good content.
(edited by Eerekai.9438)
the 35 will have an intimate relationship with the ground. lol so very true.
The explore lvl should be min 65