Guild Wars 2

nachtnebel.9168:

EgonVenkman.1907:

You are misinterpreting their words again…. They NEVER said grind = time sink. Those are your words. His words were:

“I think grind is repetitive game play leading to a goal where the activity of progression isn’t fun whether it not be fun initially or it suffers from diminishing returns over a period of time.”

His words are almost exactly the definition of time sink. Collection 250 t6 craft mats is not fun, it’s grind. Doing FotM over and over again isn’t fun, it’s grind. Killing mobs till you have enough gold to afford ascended gear isn’t fun, it’s grind.
If he uses the word grind he should use it in the common way: Doing something multiple times to (maybe) reach a goal.

An acceptable amount of time for a single piece of ascended gear would probably be 90 minutes. Everything longer than that is grind.

That is your opinion, Id rather it be a bit more time intensive than that. Something I can work towards doing and finish about once a week.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

tkalamba.2541:

marnick.4305:

For those who missed the AMA, Mike O’Brien and Chris Whiteside keep mentioning a “shallow power increase”.

Yes or no, is this a good idea?

As far as I’m concerned: no. Bad idea. Keep this power increase bs out of the game.

Also hypothetical level increases were mentioned. Give your opinion.

For me, also a big no. If I stop for a year and come back, I don’t want to find an outdated character.

A shallow power increase is nothing really to worry about.

You finding an outdated character is going to be inevitable anyways. There was never any avoiding it. They said back in 2011 that they would increase the level cap, and again during the AMA they said it. The intention was always there, and they have said it during development. It was a fact that was ignored or glossed over. An increased level cap will mean that your character will inevitably be outdated.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/19873-level-cap-increase-in-expansions/

the thing about GW2 level though is it will NEVER get any harder to level than it already is as the level curve is FLAT

I have a friend who just started playing only about 2 weeks ago, yesterday he was say “man i just hit level 40… I ONLY PLAY FOR LIKE at most 2 hours a day! Thats awesome!!!”

as long as you do your leveling in area’s built for your level it will always take a short time

Uhuh. And how long did it take for you to get full level 80 exotics? When you are level 90 you will need to get them all again, and it will take longer. Unless you want to keep playing in your 80 gear…

It’s a traditional MMO trick, make the levels easy to get, make the best gear difficult to get. So you think “ooh, I’m level 80, I’d better go get level 80 exotic armour otherwise I’m a noob!”

tkalamba.2541:

They said back in 2011 that they would increase the level cap, and again during the AMA they said it. The intention was always there, and they have said it during development. It was a fact that was ignored or glossed over.

But there´s a big difference now to pre-release and the original version of the game and to what everyone expected: exotics are not that hard to get and everyone expected to easily get max stats again on level 90 (or whatever), the grind for ascended gear makes this completely different.

And yes, this should not be overlooked when we discuss ascended gear and what it takes for us to get it now: it may all be outdated with a new level-cap next year.

hydeaut.1758:

tkalamba.2541:

They said back in 2011 that they would increase the level cap, and again during the AMA they said it. The intention was always there, and they have said it during development. It was a fact that was ignored or glossed over.

But there´s a big difference now to pre-release and the original version of the game and to what everyone expected: exotics are not that hard to get and everyone expected to easily get max stats again on level 90 (or whatever), the grind for ascended gear makes this completely different.

And yes, this should not be overlooked when we discuss ascended gear and what it takes for us to get it now: it may all be outdated with a new level-cap next year.

The Temporary grind.

They’ve already acknowledged the roll out was flawed, and they are making ascended gear easier to obtain.

Besides, the only grind I experienced when getting my backpiece was for the vial of fractal essence or w/e its called. I had a majority of the mats already (been saving alot of gold, ectos and tier 6 mats from pretty much the earliest opportunity) and my total cost to obtain this gear was minimal.

It was the same with my exotics. I didn’t bother spending any karma, and when I hit 80 I had 4 of my pieces of armour instantly. Took me 2 more days to get the rest.

The grind for a stat increase of 1%…something meant to be achieved by working for it an hour a day for a period of time for casual gamers, or all at once for hardcore gamers.

They need to change the reward idea..people dont seem to want rewards, they want gifts. Let us do the modicum of any kind of playing your game possible and receive the best option available for that small expanse of time.

Ditton.3149:

The grind for a stat increase of 1%…something meant to be achieved by working for it an hour a day for a period of time for casual gamers, or all at once for hardcore gamers.

Yes, the stat increase is honestly not worth it anyways. I did just aswell in WvW without it.

marnick.4305:

If I stop for a year and come back, I don’t want to find an outdated character.

They said they wouldn’t stop the game’s evolution just for people leaving for a year during the AMA, just that they’d make it relatively easy for them to get back if they want. If the level cap is raised during your absence, you’ll be able to catch up quickly as you return. They said it doesn’t make sense to develop a game for people that don’t actually play the game – and they’re right imo.

yes. its not only a great idea, but one desperately needed in any mmo. a mmorpg that doesn’t have something to work towards, gear/items/new content stagnates and dies.

anet made a very smart move adding ascended, and i look forward to more content and gear as time progresses.

Iruwen.3164:

marnick.4305:

If I stop for a year and come back, I don’t want to find an outdated character.

They said they wouldn’t stop the game’s evolution just for people leaving for a year during the AMA, just that they’d make it relatively easy for them to get back if they want. If the level cap is raised during your absence, you’ll be able to catch up quickly as you return. They said it doesn’t make sense to develop a game for people that don’t actually play the game – and they’re right imo.

Exactly, if you go away for a year, you aren’t playing the game, and potentially not buying gems. Or influencing the sale of gems. You find a fancy precursor, or really rare item and sell it on the TP, you could potentially create the need for someone else to go and buy gems so there is value to your continued playing.

If you aren’t playing for a solid year, why should the game be built for you and not the people that are actually playing?

All I can say is wait for their next patch see what they’ve fixed or left to the wolves.

That’s all I can do before seeing if I should move on.

They promised us that this would not be the case and yes you do have a point what if they add non instanced open world content that everyone who doesn’t go after the new tier gear or have a legendary on will be cut off from.

I think that’s a very valid concern.

What could possibly be the purpose of a shallow power increase? You also see this defense from forums members. They say that it’s insignificant. Well, if it is not significant, why do it? The answer of course is they have embarked on vertical progression and the nature of vertical progression of the power level is for power to creep ever upwards. Once introduced (and it wasn’t here before the patch) it will never stop. It will creep in order to give the illusion of progress. Those promoting it will continue to demand it so that they have “something to aim for”. The problem is vertical progression, not the degree of the increment of increase. This is one of the more clever uses of language to come out of this debate.

tkalamba.2541:

The Temporary grind.

They’ve already acknowledged the roll out was flawed, and they are making ascended gear easier to obtain.

I will believe that when I see it:

as far as I remember Whiteside said there will be additional ways to obtain it, that they might make it cheaper to craft and that he wants to make it less grind. But he also said, he decided to roll the ascended gear out the way it is currently – why did he do that then?

Chamone.6890:

UnderdogSMO.9428:

tkalamba.2541:

marnick.4305:

For those who missed the AMA, Mike O’Brien and Chris Whiteside keep mentioning a “shallow power increase”.

Yes or no, is this a good idea?

As far as I’m concerned: no. Bad idea. Keep this power increase bs out of the game.

Also hypothetical level increases were mentioned. Give your opinion.

For me, also a big no. If I stop for a year and come back, I don’t want to find an outdated character.

A shallow power increase is nothing really to worry about.

You finding an outdated character is going to be inevitable anyways. There was never any avoiding it. They said back in 2011 that they would increase the level cap, and again during the AMA they said it. The intention was always there, and they have said it during development. It was a fact that was ignored or glossed over. An increased level cap will mean that your character will inevitably be outdated.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/19873-level-cap-increase-in-expansions/

the thing about GW2 level though is it will NEVER get any harder to level than it already is as the level curve is FLAT

I have a friend who just started playing only about 2 weeks ago, yesterday he was say “man i just hit level 40… I ONLY PLAY FOR LIKE at most 2 hours a day! Thats awesome!!!”

as long as you do your leveling in area’s built for your level it will always take a short time

Uhuh. And how long did it take for you to get full level 80 exotics? When you are level 90 you will need to get them all again, and it will take longer. Unless you want to keep playing in your 80 gear…

It’s a traditional MMO trick, make the levels easy to get, make the best gear difficult to get. So you think “ooh, I’m level 80, I’d better go get level 80 exotic armour otherwise I’m a noob!”

thats not exactly a trick most people are well aware of it happening including myself

game’s like the elder scrolls kinda do the same thing the loot gets more “epic” but realy its just an arbatrary number this isnt new to MMO’s you did the same type of thing in the Bolders gate game’s and event to some level table top DnD game’s (more or less so depending on your DM)

whats realy importent in this type of content is pasing nd how you can get to it

for example right now i feel acended gear is implomented badly because I can only get it by fractals ((i can play no othere part of the game to progress i can only get stronger by doing fractals WTF is that)) that said A-net knows thay F-ed up and said thay have not plans to do that Again

WOW dose it badly because the only way to Progress is Dungeons and raiding thats also BS

(9this is how it should be with all content)) how ever one thing that was nice about exzotic was that i could get it any way i wanted to, I could play the game my way. yes if i wanted a paticuler pice of exotic or stated i had to do a some content i may not like but over all i could gettop tear by playing what i wanted to play.

I think the shallow power curve is a good compromise. I have no problem at all with level cap increases being introduced with expansions. Levelling is very fast in this game and exotics are easy to get.

I also think it’s just logical to design a game for the people who play it regularly rather than people who don’t play for a year.

And by the way, when I started playing GW1 it was together with a friend who hadn’t played it for ages. When we started playing he was muttering about skills having been changed and his build not working anymore.

Any time you take a long break from something you will be out of date.

hydeaut.1758:

tkalamba.2541:

The Temporary grind.

They’ve already acknowledged the roll out was flawed, and they are making ascended gear easier to obtain.

I will believe that when I see it:

as far as I remember Whiteside said there will be additional ways to obtain it, that they might make it cheaper to craft and that he wants to make it less grind. But he also said, he decided to roll the ascended gear out the way it is currently – why did he do that then?

miss step. kitten happens, developers are just people and people some time’s F-up. but whats make’s A-net better than alot of devs is there abuilty to Own up to it and say “Yeah we F-ed up, our bad we wont do that again. O_O”

fact of the matter is GW2 is kinda one big experiment and there still toying with it, or working on the formula ((i new this when i started playing)) why do you think Most other Devs copy WOW. thats already a formula that works there’s not real experimentation needed.

I mean do you have any idea how much wow Changed over its first few months, and man people complaine about the bugs in this game… Vanila wow was WAY more F-ed up. hell there’s still a bunch of buged vinila quest but the game has so much content now there easy to miss or skip

hydeaut.1758:

I will believe that when I see it:

as far as I remember Whiteside said there will be additional ways to obtain it, that they might make it cheaper to craft and that he wants to make it less grind. But he also said, he decided to roll the ascended gear out the way it is currently – why did he do that then?

Obviously, rolling out the patch in time (knowing that it will offend many, many players) is way more important than to get it done “right” or just “the way it was supposed to be.”

Maybe his year-end bonus depends on shipping patches on time and on budget. Publicly traded companies often have incentives like that for managers. Maybe it needed to be rolled out that fast so that there’s enough time between the patch and the winter event. We’ll never know.

Personally, I’d like them to roll out content more slowly but in a more finished state. Oh, and to maybe fix some of the bugs that plague existing content since it was released and keep various dungeons virtually unplayable.

But who needs existing content if there’s an event around the corner that will hopefully be over before the bugs that plague it raise to much of a stink?

Power creep always starts small. This change is a victory for the people who spent months crying about about wanting MOARLOOT and a defeat for those of us who enjoyed the game that we have/had.

Bigger numbers are fake gameplay, fake content, and fake reward. On the other hand, they’re incredibly cheap to produce.

I think if they’re just going to go the “traditional MMO route” they might as well just go all-in. Copy the titles that are most successful and be done with it.

Throw out shallow power increase and go full tiered progression. Roll out a new tier of gear above Ascended with solidly better stats in 3 months, and bump the level limit another 10 levels.

Shallow power curves are just an excuse to trickle power to someone for the same amount of effort required in other games, for bigger jumps. If someone has to grind for 40 hours for a new power level of gear it should make them more powerful, not just a tiny bit.

Think of it this way: If you have to flip burgers for 40 hours to get your paycheck, would you rather get $2 an hour or $15 an hour? Bigger is better, right?

If we have to grind for power – make people feel better and give them big numbers at least.

Edit – They already said back in 2011 that level increases are planned for expansions. Power creep is obviously here now. Resistance is futile.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

I mean do you have any idea how much wow Changed over its first few months, and man people complaine about the bugs in this game… Vanila wow was WAY more F-ed up. hell there’s still a bunch of buged vinila quest but the game has so much content now there easy to miss or skip

I didn’t experience a single bug while leveling to 60 tbh, it was a lot of fun to explore the world and it actually didn’t even feel grindy, except for the usual “gather a quadrillion wolf teeth and bring them to me” quests (which already was more grind than I’d ever accept now). I never really felt the urge to grind until they added Blackwing Lair with patch 1.6, from this time on the game really caused a downward spiral.

Has this answer form Mike O’Brien been discussed because I find it kind of remarkable:

“How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”

So according to them now horizontal progression is stagnant. Amazing comment given how successful GW1 was over a number of years.

morrolan.9608:

Has this answer form Mike O’Brien been discussed because I find it kind of remarkable:

“How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”

So according to them now horizontal progression is stagnant. Amazing comment given how successful GW1 was over a number of years.

It boggles the mind doesn’t it.

My first thought when I heard they were keeping the good things that made GW1 great was “awesome, they’re sticking to horizontal progression”.

With all their boasting of being different to every other MMO pre-release, what do we have 3 months later? Another shallow gear orientated grind fest, just like the rest.

GG

LOCO.1785:

morrolan.9608:

Has this answer form Mike O’Brien been discussed because I find it kind of remarkable:

“How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”

So according to them now horizontal progression is stagnant. Amazing comment given how successful GW1 was over a number of years.

It boggles the mind doesn’t it.

My first thought when I heard they were keeping the good things that made GW1 great was “awesome, they’re sticking to horizontal progression”.

With all their boasting of being different to every other MMO pre-release, what do we have 3 months later? Another shallow gear orientated grind fest, just like the rest.

GG

It seems that they somehow think they can satisfy both customer bases when they have mutually-exclusive desires. I think they’ve created a sort of a hybrid that will satisfy neither. The gear treadmill won’t be fast enough to satisfy the gear-grinders, while any gear treadmill is more than I want to put up with.

And over-emphasizing how you don’t technically need pink gear or the infusion-of-the-month hardly helps them. I don’t need cash shop items either, nor do I need to recommend GW2 to my friends, or play GW2 at all (or any other game, for that matter). It’s a dead-end argument.

I wanted to have a couple of sets of max-stat gear on a couple of characters without spending overly much time on it (and without spending any time keeping my 4th set of gear up to date). I thought I had that for a couple of months.

azmodeus.3409:

yes. its not only a great idea, but one desperately needed in any mmo. a mmorpg that doesn’t have something to work towards, gear/items/new content stagnates and dies.

anet made a very smart move adding ascended, and i look forward to more content and gear as time progresses.

They had gear and items to work towards.

They’ve introduced new content each month.

Having that gear involve stat mod increases that are required to proceed in the new content is the problem.

Ditton.3149:

nachtnebel.9168:

EgonVenkman.1907:

You are misinterpreting their words again…. They NEVER said grind = time sink. Those are your words. His words were:

“I think grind is repetitive game play leading to a goal where the activity of progression isn’t fun whether it not be fun initially or it suffers from diminishing returns over a period of time.”

His words are almost exactly the definition of time sink. Collection 250 t6 craft mats is not fun, it’s grind. Doing FotM over and over again isn’t fun, it’s grind. Killing mobs till you have enough gold to afford ascended gear isn’t fun, it’s grind.
If he uses the word grind he should use it in the common way: Doing something multiple times to (maybe) reach a goal.

An acceptable amount of time for a single piece of ascended gear would probably be 90 minutes. Everything longer than that is grind.

That is your opinion, Id rather it be a bit more time intensive than that. Something I can work towards doing and finish about once a week.

So, 14-16 weeks per character? Then i guess updating that armor to specs once new levels go in would take me about 2 years, or more… assuming the level 90 armor will not have greater time requirements (and i bet it will). And assuming that there will be no new tier or new level increase within that two years. No, thank you, one week per item is too long even for one character – for alts it becomes plain impossible.

Ditton.3149:

They need to change the reward idea..people dont seem to want rewards, they want gifts. Let us do the modicum of any kind of playing your game possible and receive the best option available for that small expanse of time.

Bigger numbers are not a reward. Bigger numbers are not content. Bigger numbers are not gameplay.

This is, at best, a lazy way to try to cajole people into playing more or directing them to particular areas.

morrolan.9608:

Has this answer form Mike O’Brien been discussed because I find it kind of remarkable:

“How is introducing [power creep] respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”

So according to them now horizontal progression is stagnant. Amazing comment given how successful GW1 was over a number of years.

As I said above, bigger number are not a reward.

Bigger numbers are not a challenge.

Bigger numbers are not any meaningful sort of “growth”.

morrolan.9608:

Has this answer form Mike O’Brien been discussed because I find it kind of remarkable:

“How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.”

So according to them now horizontal progression is stagnant. Amazing comment given how successful GW1 was over a number of years.

Oh, I didn’t read that part of it. He really said so? Well then, good to know that I won’t have to pay a dime for GW2 anymore. I hope I can ignore the progression (not falling behind too much) until new exciting MMOs are released. I’ll definitely have a look at Elderscrolls to see if it’s any good.

Which is sad, really. The Guildwars 2 of the first beta weekend was – for me – perfect. The open world was challenging. It was non-vertical. We didn’t know that downlevelling was to be a joke (on my 80 exo warrior, low level mobs are charge, 100b, dead before last swing). Had they simply shipped it and kept it as it was back then, I’d have stayed a loyal fan for years. It’s not me who changed. It’s them.

I’d love to buy gems for all sorts of stuff, including gold. But not anymore. I know that whatever I spend it on, it’s temporary, sooner or later to be outdated and trashed. Not gonna do that. Takes so much fun from the game.

tkalamba.2541:

The Temporary grind.

Others have mentioned it, but it is a power creep. Meaning as more vertical progression is implemented, we will have to grind again, be it for resources to craft, WvW badges to purchase, Dungeon tokens to purchase or the good ol’ RNG in drops. Every time the vertical bar rises, we have to grind.
Every time the carrot is extended farther in front of us, we get back on the treadmill.
That is exactly what ANET said they would not do.

Archmortal.1027:

tkalamba.2541:

The Temporary grind.

Others have mentioned it, but it is a power creep. Meaning as more vertical progression is implemented, we will have to grind again, be it for resources to craft, WvW badges to purchase, Dungeon tokens to purchase or the good ol’ RNG in drops. Every time the vertical bar rises, we have to grind.
Every time the carrot is extended farther in front of us, we get back on the treadmill.
That is exactly what ANET said they would not do.

The current method to obtain the gear is a grind (farming for ectos is a pain) but they’ve already stated its a mistake and will be fixed. It’s not like this game didn’t have grind before?

So what about the grind for skins? Or the grind for Legendaries? What if your only goal is WvW, isn’t the journey to level 80 to be competitive still a grind? This term is used way to loosely that its honestly beginning to lose its meaning.

There will always be a grind. If there wasn’t, this game wouldn’t have gear or levels to start with. Just like how you will always have to chase a carrot anyways. New content with new goals is still just another carrot to chase, just in a different form. Not to mention they’ve stated before, and have again during the AMA that they will likely increase a level cap, so you will continue to chase a carrot.

In a game with levels etc. There will always be some sort of carrot to chase. Everyone will have a different carrot they prefer, and Anet is trying to create a mass market game. GW1 sold as much in 7 years as many games can sell in a week (IE. Call of Duty)

If you enjoy the content, isn’t it no longer a grind? A grind is repeating activities you don’t like. If you can obtain these items doing stuff you like, or hitting a new level cap enjoying yourself, its not a grind.

This game doesn’t even compare to grindy games, where I have to spend 2 weeks in a single 20 square foot area killing the exact same set of mobs before I can progress to the next 20 square foot area. The very fact that there is flexibility in what you do negates a grind, as if you get bored of one method to gain a level, get better gear etc, you can just go to the next.

Right now, this very second, yes, fractals is a grind. One that is temporary as Anet has already stated new methods to obtain said gear is being released, and current methods were flawed.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

tkalamba.2541:

marnick.4305:

For those who missed the AMA, Mike O’Brien and Chris Whiteside keep mentioning a “shallow power increase”.

Yes or no, is this a good idea?

As far as I’m concerned: no. Bad idea. Keep this power increase bs out of the game.

Also hypothetical level increases were mentioned. Give your opinion.

For me, also a big no. If I stop for a year and come back, I don’t want to find an outdated character.

A shallow power increase is nothing really to worry about.

You finding an outdated character is going to be inevitable anyways. There was never any avoiding it. They said back in 2011 that they would increase the level cap, and again during the AMA they said it. The intention was always there, and they have said it during development. It was a fact that was ignored or glossed over. An increased level cap will mean that your character will inevitably be outdated.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/19873-level-cap-increase-in-expansions/

the thing about GW2 level though is it will NEVER get any harder to level than it already is as the level curve is FLAT

I have a friend who just started playing only about 2 weeks ago, yesterday he was say “man i just hit level 40… I ONLY PLAY FOR LIKE at most 2 hours a day! Thats awesome!!!”

as long as you do your leveling in area’s built for your level it will always take a short time

That’s true, and it doesn’t ever get harder. Even if they throw another 20 levels for us to achieve, I can bet that most people will hit it in a week. I’ve technically probably achieved an extra 150 levels on top of level 80 (based on skillpoint gain) just by playing maybe an hour a day. Occasionally more.

This is troubling. I’m not sure how I missed this quote people keep referencing by Mike O’Brien from 2011, but I was certain they wouldn’t increase the level cap. It;s even more disturbing watching people fail horribly at trying to understand what fans of lateral progression want and why…

This probably also means that they’re abandoning a lot of their emphasis on aesthetic gear choices. Less of the game most likely will actually be about having fun. It’s an inherent part of catering to the VP reward crowd. You’re not designing the game around fun content, you’re designing it around carrots. And no matter how many carrots this crowd eats, they won’t see that they’ve been running in place for several years.

This makes my hopes for seeing things like the activities that were supposed to be in at launch much, much lower. After all, why should they provide fun content when there’s a new audience of people who are more content chasing artificial rewards in the form of numbers. It makes no sense to me, but you can’t teach people to have higher standards.

When Keg Brawl and WvW stop being fun for me, I’m through with this game. They’re no longer my favorite game development studio. :/

Serelisk.6573:

This is troubling. I’m not sure how I missed this quote people keep referencing by Mike O’Brien from 2011, but I was certain they wouldn’t increase the level cap. It;s even more disturbing watching people fail horribly at trying to understand what fans of lateral progression want and why…

This probably also means that they’re abandoning a lot of their emphasis on aesthetic gear choices. Less of the game most likely will actually be about having fun. It’s an inherent part of catering to the VP reward crowd. You’re not designing the game around fun content, you’re designing it around carrots. And no matter how many carrots this crowd eats, they won’t see that they’ve been running in place for several years.

This makes my hopes for seeing things like the activities that were supposed to be in at launch much, much lower. After all, why should they provide fun content when there’s a new audience of people who are more content chasing artificial rewards in the form of numbers. It makes no sense to me, but you can’t teach people to have higher standards.

When Keg Brawl and WvW stop being fun for me, I’m through with this game. They’re no longer my favorite game development studio. :/

It is still entirely possible to have fun while still maintaining vertical progression.

If they award exp for everything then there’s no reason not to have fun leveling like they do now. Grind only kicks in when what you are doing isn’t enjoyable, at that point the only award is the carrot.

I haven’t done kegbrawl, so I do not know if it awards any exp or karma, but pretty much everything else does. The game doesn’t need strictly Horizontal progression or Strictly Vertical progression to be enjoyable, it can have degrees of both.

That’s what makes this game special over other MMO’s. I can level doing pretty much anything. This makes reaching level caps, or obtaining gear less of a chore. The only grind there is in this game is when you willingly fall into a pattern of farming for one specific purpose (ie. Legendary, dungeon armours, Ascended gear)

None of these were designed to be consumed within the first few months, but people feel the need to be the first to have them all.

The sheer fact that I can get full exotics from multiple sources, be it gold, karma, or badges of honor means I can do what I want, still get gear, still level, and still enjoy myself. The grind is self imposed. You don’t need to grind for anything, this game is 3 months old only.

In the end, there is no difference between chasing a statistical number, or chasing a skin. It’s still chasing something, and the both can have a grind associated with them. Skins are still a carrot, just like a small statistical increase. There is still plenty of fun content surrounding these carrots. This is what people seem to fail to realize. The fun is still there, people are just going for the newest content, and things will always be that way. Everytime something new comes, people will want to see how fun it is.

People find Fractals fun, and why shouldn’t they? It’s well designed. Other people find WvW fun, like myself and others find exploration fun. There are rewards for all. Just be patient, your activities are still coming, this game is still incredibly young.

Stop telling us that fractals are fun. Some of us hate them, some people find them fun. An absolute statement that people find them fun is misleading.

Flynch.6034:

MechanicalMind.9126:

Flynch.6034:

Look, they balls’d up. You don’t try to bait and switch, then send someone on for 8 hours to represent and answer questions to then bait and switch again. That’s idiotic.

Logged in just to reply to this.

Oh, please. Seriously. They HAD to send in someone to do an AMA. I would argue that it was specifically because of the backlash they did it and nothing else. It’s basically a fireman to a fire.

Just because one person says they are going to “fix it” doesn’t mean they wont try other ways of practicing it in the future. I mean kitten they even said they had meant to do it and that it was staying.

In any case, logic please?

Of course they had to send someone in to deal with it. I’m not saying that it wasn’t required or that it was some sort of altruism on Anet’s part.

My point was simple. If you have wrecked something and caused a great deal of damage to the community through lack of transparency, you don’t then set up an AMA with further deception at its heart.

They would have done less damage by doing nothing at all than they would have by further (personally I don’t believe they did) baiting and switching in the AMA.

Actually You do. It is a delay tactic used by politicians and like minded people. You keep them hanging on by deception and by the time the people realize what you have done they are in too far.

This case they may be trying to fix it (doubt) or stringing people along so that they get so far into the gear grind they simply say screw it I am this far in might as well keep going.
Then they have you hook line and sinker.
Wait and see but if past actions are to be used it doesnt look good. I mean they threw GW1 under the bus and raids incoming and trinity like mechanics who knows?

tkalamba.2541:

Serelisk.6573:

This is troubling. I’m not sure how I missed this quote people keep referencing by Mike O’Brien from 2011, but I was certain they wouldn’t increase the level cap. It;s even more disturbing watching people fail horribly at trying to understand what fans of lateral progression want and why…

This probably also means that they’re abandoning a lot of their emphasis on aesthetic gear choices. Less of the game most likely will actually be about having fun. It’s an inherent part of catering to the VP reward crowd. You’re not designing the game around fun content, you’re designing it around carrots. And no matter how many carrots this crowd eats, they won’t see that they’ve been running in place for several years.

This makes my hopes for seeing things like the activities that were supposed to be in at launch much, much lower. After all, why should they provide fun content when there’s a new audience of people who are more content chasing artificial rewards in the form of numbers. It makes no sense to me, but you can’t teach people to have higher standards.

When Keg Brawl and WvW stop being fun for me, I’m through with this game. They’re no longer my favorite game development studio. :/

It is still entirely possible to have fun while still maintaining vertical progression.

If they award exp for everything then there’s no reason not to have fun leveling like they do now. Grind only kicks in when what you are doing isn’t enjoyable, at that point the only award is the carrot.

I haven’t done kegbrawl, so I do not know if it awards any exp or karma, but pretty much everything else does. The game doesn’t need strictly Horizontal progression or Strictly Vertical progression to be enjoyable, it can have degrees of both.

That’s what makes this game special over other MMO’s. I can level doing pretty much anything. This makes reaching level caps, or obtaining gear less of a chore. The only grind there is in this game is when you willingly fall into a pattern of farming for one specific purpose (ie. Legendary, dungeon armours, Ascended gear)

None of these were designed to be consumed within the first few months, but people feel the need to be the first to have them all.

The sheer fact that I can get full exotics from multiple sources, be it gold, karma, or badges of honor means I can do what I want, still get gear, still level, and still enjoy myself. The grind is self imposed. You don’t need to grind for anything, this game is 3 months old only.

In the end, there is no difference between chasing a statistical number, or chasing a skin. It’s still chasing something, and the both can have a grind associated with them. Skins are still a carrot, just like a small statistical increase. There is still plenty of fun content surrounding these carrots. This is what people seem to fail to realize. The fun is still there, people are just going for the newest content, and things will always be that way. Everytime something new comes, people will want to see how fun it is.

People find Fractals fun, and why shouldn’t they? It’s well designed. Other people find WvW fun, like myself and others find exploration fun. There are rewards for all. Just be patient, your activities are still coming, this game is still incredibly young.

I don’t think you get how different both progressions are. Horizontal progression is about gaining something you want and or becoming more versatile. Vertical progression is only about getting more powerful. These 2 are mutually exclusive. Either new content is designed for lesser gear. Making the content a borefest for those in the better gear. Or it forces those in lesser gear to obtain the highest tier or not be able to do said content. Either way one group is left out. Now you can say but they can adjust the difficulty for each armor tier. Well than the enter game population loses, because you will get exactly what is going on in LA now. A fragmented population.

Columba.9730:

Stop telling us that fractals are fun. Some of us hate them, some people find them fun. An absolute statement that people find them fun is misleading.

I’m just saying people find it fun, I didn’t say all find it fun. Some do some don’t. Point being, there are many people who play this game, they all find different aspects of it enjoyable.

Conner.4702:

tkalamba.2541:

Serelisk.6573:

This is troubling. I’m not sure how I missed this quote people keep referencing by Mike O’Brien from 2011, but I was certain they wouldn’t increase the level cap. It;s even more disturbing watching people fail horribly at trying to understand what fans of lateral progression want and why…

This probably also means that they’re abandoning a lot of their emphasis on aesthetic gear choices. Less of the game most likely will actually be about having fun. It’s an inherent part of catering to the VP reward crowd. You’re not designing the game around fun content, you’re designing it around carrots. And no matter how many carrots this crowd eats, they won’t see that they’ve been running in place for several years.

This makes my hopes for seeing things like the activities that were supposed to be in at launch much, much lower. After all, why should they provide fun content when there’s a new audience of people who are more content chasing artificial rewards in the form of numbers. It makes no sense to me, but you can’t teach people to have higher standards.

When Keg Brawl and WvW stop being fun for me, I’m through with this game. They’re no longer my favorite game development studio. :/

It is still entirely possible to have fun while still maintaining vertical progression.

If they award exp for everything then there’s no reason not to have fun leveling like they do now. Grind only kicks in when what you are doing isn’t enjoyable, at that point the only award is the carrot.

I haven’t done kegbrawl, so I do not know if it awards any exp or karma, but pretty much everything else does. The game doesn’t need strictly Horizontal progression or Strictly Vertical progression to be enjoyable, it can have degrees of both.

That’s what makes this game special over other MMO’s. I can level doing pretty much anything. This makes reaching level caps, or obtaining gear less of a chore. The only grind there is in this game is when you willingly fall into a pattern of farming for one specific purpose (ie. Legendary, dungeon armours, Ascended gear)

None of these were designed to be consumed within the first few months, but people feel the need to be the first to have them all.

The sheer fact that I can get full exotics from multiple sources, be it gold, karma, or badges of honor means I can do what I want, still get gear, still level, and still enjoy myself. The grind is self imposed. You don’t need to grind for anything, this game is 3 months old only.

In the end, there is no difference between chasing a statistical number, or chasing a skin. It’s still chasing something, and the both can have a grind associated with them. Skins are still a carrot, just like a small statistical increase. There is still plenty of fun content surrounding these carrots. This is what people seem to fail to realize. The fun is still there, people are just going for the newest content, and things will always be that way. Everytime something new comes, people will want to see how fun it is.

People find Fractals fun, and why shouldn’t they? It’s well designed. Other people find WvW fun, like myself and others find exploration fun. There are rewards for all. Just be patient, your activities are still coming, this game is still incredibly young.

I don’t think you get how different both progressions are. Horizontal progression is about gaining something you want and or becoming more versatile. Vertical progression is only about getting more powerful. These 2 are mutually exclusive. Either new content is designed for lesser gear. Making the content a borefest for those in the better gear. Or it forces those in lesser gear to obtain the highest tier or not be able to do said content. Either way one group is left out. Now you can say but they can adjust the difficulty for each armor tier. Well than the enter game population loses, because you will get exactly what is going on in LA now. A fragmented population.

So if they were so exclusive, this game would be considered Vertical from the get go. We wouldn’t have had levels to start with, we’d all start the same, and progression would have come solely from versatility.

It doesn’t happen this way at all, not even during beta. There already is a mix of both types.

The closest thing we have right now in gaming to Horizontal progression is Planetside 2, and even then there is hints of vertical progression.

What it boils down to is, if I wanted more gear treadmills and vertical progression, I’d go back to WOW. I don’t think I’m the only one who feels this way.

tkalamba.2541:

Columba.9730:

Stop telling us that fractals are fun. Some of us hate them, some people find them fun. An absolute statement that people find them fun is misleading.

I’m just saying people find it fun, I didn’t say all find it fun. Some do some don’t. Point being, there are many people who play this game, they all find different aspects of it enjoyable.

Ok, so some people find them fun. We agree. We also agree that different players want different things. Some of are frustrated that because we hate dungeons we are 2 weeks behind the grinding curve…..and counting….

Serelisk.6573:

This is troubling. I’m not sure how I missed this quote people keep referencing by Mike O’Brien from 2011, but I was certain they wouldn’t increase the level cap. It;s even more disturbing watching people fail horribly at trying to understand what fans of lateral progression want and why…

This probably also means that they’re abandoning a lot of their emphasis on aesthetic gear choices. Less of the game most likely will actually be about having fun. It’s an inherent part of catering to the VP reward crowd. You’re not designing the game around fun content, you’re designing it around carrots. And no matter how many carrots this crowd eats, they won’t see that they’ve been running in place for several years.

This makes my hopes for seeing things like the activities that were supposed to be in at launch much, much lower. After all, why should they provide fun content when there’s a new audience of people who are more content chasing artificial rewards in the form of numbers. It makes no sense to me, but you can’t teach people to have higher standards.

When Keg Brawl and WvW stop being fun for me, I’m through with this game. They’re no longer my favorite game development studio. :/

This. Raising the level cap serves no gameplay purpose, it’s just a carrot that defies the principles that made GW1 such a great game. They haven’t actually done anything yet so I wouldn’t jump to conclusions, but if they raise the level cap in a future expansion/update I’m certainly going to stop playing. Maybe I’ll go back to Dota 2. And if hell freezes over and Valve starts introducing vertical progression then I guess I’ll have to go outside or something.