Guild Wars 2

If you make a raid where the gear you get from it can only be worn or seen in the raid, most people wouldn’t raid. While a lot of people did raid for challenge, just as many, or more, raided for reward.

So…because you have no life…sit at home all day playing a video game, you should have better rewards than those that can only put in a few hours of the day after work? Because honest, hardworking people that have lives don’t deserve anything nice in a game they might enjoy playing in what little free time they can devote to it? I gotcha, you feel entitled to something nicer because you put ‘more time.’ Skill > Time.

As for “unfair advantage in pvp”…by nature, a competitive game (such as player vs player) must have equal footing and enforceable rules in order to accurately determine a clear winner or loser. Gear advantage skews this, and while this isn’t terribly obvious in GW2, it is in other games like WoW. Getting your kitten handed to you because you didn’t have hours to grind the latest amazing gear level (or even while trying to grind that latest gear level) is NOT enjoyable. If you think it is, go roll a new toon in WoW, level up to 15 and go play AB in base PvE armor for a few hours and see how you feel. Maybe it makes you feel wonderful, getting beaten down over and over again (and talked kitten to), but for most normal human beings, we feel pretty crappy. We do not want this in GW2!

SolidTx.3249:

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP. The game already auto levels anyhow. No big deal.

It does in sPvP, which I’m good with. Dungeons it doesn’t need to because there is a cap to armor, as there should be. It worked wonderfully in GW1, it can work just as well here.

SolidTx.3249:

What then is the issue with having gear progression?

The issue with gear progression (generally) is that it’s required to access content; content that players get locked out of at later times because people have moved on. I’ve experienced this personally in WoW. I only started playing WoW last year. Started in January, was totally burnt out and hated the game by July. Why? Because every guild I joined, I couldn’t play with any of the members. I wasn’t a high enough level. I didn’t have the right gear. So on and so forth. In 7 months I killed myself grinding 3 characters to max, bored to tears running the same dungeon over and over and over again, to armor up so I could join my guild members – 1 healer, 1 dmg, 1 tank. So I could fit into any role they might need. It wasn’t fun. It wasn’t enjoyable. Not to mention the kitten I got from my dungeon groups for not having ‘x’ or ‘y’ skill, or armor, or not knowing the path because I’d never played before, or what have you. And, while yes, sometimes I got help on some of the grind from my guildies, most of them were too busy with their own grinds to be able to help. I don’t know about others, but I don’t want that in GW2. I don’t want others to suffer for hours being made to feel like they aren’t ‘good enough’ or treated like kitten because they aren’t up to speed on the gear treadmill.

SolidTx.3249:

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

Yes, there is an issue with gear treadmills, at least with how the treadmills and gated content has been implemented in other games, as many have pointed out (some rather rationally, and politely – me not included, I know I’m cranky). There are alternatives to what you seek in simpler solutions, but those don’t seem to be good enough answers for you. Like many who refuse to hear arguments in favor of gear treadmills, you’re equally as bigoted about accepting logical, reasonable arguments against it.
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Amazing. Why do assume because I want something more from the game that I am a loser with no job and life and play video games all day? How dare you. Would you like my Linkdin profile? Would it shock you that I work 60 hours a week, have a mortgage, 2 happy well adjusted kids and a wife, been married to one woman for 19 years? How dare you.

I have achieved all I want IRL as you say. The fact that I want more from the video games I play is my right to speak. You can disagree with my opinion, but you have only degraded yourself with your wild and incorrect assumptions.[/quote]

Actually his comments and the people who agree with him will have nobody but themselves to insult when this game dies because people are so bored and tired of all the RNG and bad dungeon and event design. The same thing happened with Tortanic and the only difference is this game is pretty.

Solid I think players like us should avoid Korean grind mmos because that’s really the problem. They build mmos to squeeze as much money out of players with RNG and a cash shop and could care less about how fun the game is.

SolidTx.3249:

“Adding more content to the game does not detract from your enjoyment. If you dont like whats added, DONT participate. So they add in some tier gear, or perhaps a dungeon with heaven forbid an “attunement”. The fact that the content exists doesnt take away from you. It doesnt. You dont have to participate.

Now you say that the time/investment made by the devs is wasted. Not so, there are more than enough people on the other side of the argument who with me, agree the content would be appreciated. So what if you dont like every feature the game has to provide. You’ve already said you like the game the way that it is. Im not advocating change to that – just new content that will appeal to others that you can ignore.

We can agree the game needs more content, harder more challenging content with better rewards and a wider variety of looks. Even by their own admission people on your side of the argument here say there is very little to do in the game and their play time is dimished.

Perhaps this oversimplifies a very difficult decision in game design. A decision, by the way, which a game has to make one way or the other. There’s not a lot of middle ground.

I remember a game where the raid boss dropped a weapon with stats high enough that it became an I-win button in 1 on 1 PvP.

I remember when arenas were introduced in WoW, with gear rewards including a BIS item which became a prerequisite for raiding. This meant players who wanted to raid had to participate in the arena game, even if it meant gritting their teeth.

I remember the DAoC TOA expansion introducing a gear progression where players had to open world PvE to get and then level special weapons (“artifacts”) to remain competitive in RvR (what we would call WvW) — and complete an open world raid progression sequence to gain an ability set needed to compete — and acquire gear which was random drops from those raid encounters to compete. A balanced (but imperfect) RvR game, which was the center of DAoC, was destroyed by TOA and in many ways never recovered.

I remember WoW Wrath of the Lich King, where one could accumulate raid badges by doing the random 5-player daily, and spend those badges on gear which trivialized the 5-man heroics. WoW trained a whole generation of players to faceroll 5-mans in DPS gear that year, to use inspect and refuse to group with people whose gear wasn’t already maxed. Because it was the gear stats running those 5-mans, not the players’ skill.

I remember RIFT bringing out a whole island of challenging open world PvE content, and then giving away raid gear which trivialized soloing it.

Both WoW and RIFT did this because new players couldn’t otherwise progress to the baseline of the currently active dungeon progression. They were faced with an ugly choice: stop allowing new players to progress (in essence closing the door to new customers), or give away “welfare epics” that trivialized the open world and 5-player content.

This is an essential aspect of a gear-stat-progression game: it’s constantly trivializing all but the newest content in the world. Meaning raid instances abandoned (save for above level tourism) before 10% of the player base has even seen the first trash mob, and constant terror in the developers that despite all they’re spending the players will get ahead of them, get bored, and leave. Hence the use of weekly dungeon lockouts and low drop rates and knife edge stat checks in WoW raid dungeons to make sure even the best players have to wait on the random number generator for enough weeks for the developer to finish this raid instance, or get the next one started.

I am not the best player in GW2, by far. But I came to this game because progression is primarily in player skill, not in gear stats. Making hard caps on gear makes this a game of skill, not one of seniority. (Remember WoW arena, where unskilled players who had “earned” gear by numerous mediocre performances (putting in their time) could flatten much more skilled but ungeared players?) Earning and learning your way to endgame the way GW2 does is one thing. Enduring being flattened by idiots to “put in your time” is not a way I choose to spend my time, nor is it an attribute of games in which I would continue to pay a subscription or buy gems.

And I want GW2’s content to remain challenging, and GW2’s developers to create more challenging content without trivializing what’s already in the game.

Can’t do that with a gear progression. Can only do it with a player skill progression. Which is harder to measure, I agree.

And there’s really no middle ground. Absent a little bit of fuzz at the edges, devs have to pick one model or the other. As do players.

Vayne.8563:

If you make a raid where the gear you get from it can only be worn or seen in the raid, most people wouldn’t raid. While a lot of people did raid for challenge, just as many, or more, raided for reward.

I thought that was clearly understood.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Which is why I gave up trying to argue that point. It’s evident, but the fact people feel otherwise means it’s a lost cause trying to argue it.

Not necessarily. Discussing these subjects can help players on either side realize what exactly bothers them with the way GW2 turned out to be. Analyzing and understanding what you as a player want, what you are willing to compromise on, and what breaks the enjoyment of the game are vital if we want to progress (no pun intended) the discussion. The question everybody that’s not satisfied at the moment has to ask themselves is simple: Can you enjoy the game enough without having BiS gear easily available for every character?

If the answer is no, then you might want to take an indefinite break from the game and hope that sometime in the future GW2 will evolve to a point where BiS gear is indeed easily available.

That’s what I’ve been doing since the day I realized that I can’t enjoy the game without trivial gear and level progression.

goldenwing.8473:

If gear progression was added for “raid” style content, my guildmates and I would have no problem as long as:

1) The gear was useful only in the “raid style” content for which it was specifically designed.

2) The gear had absolutely no effect on any other portion of the game, e.g. PvE or WvW. Not even the slightest amount of stat benefit or perceived enhancement.

3) The gear would not look any different from any other gear currently available to everyone (even to the point that perhaps it only existed in the form of accessories).

I understand this, and somewhat agree. However, a lot of players might feel like “if our gear is going to look the same as everyone elses, what are we raiding for?” GW2 is, after all, a game where a larger emphasis is placed on appearance than in other games.

It might be best to keep gear out of the equationi. At least in regards to the first “raid” that comes up.

Alternatively, adopt the dungeon model where the raid awards tokens (remember, my idea involves no new tier of gear) that can be used to purchase new exotic pieces with a totally different and unique style, and no stats increases. This would make any “upgrades” purely cosmetic, and nothing more, much like many items from the dungeon vendors.

ANet, prior to Ascended pieces, did state that they weren’t going to add a new tier. While the Ascended gear had a loud outcry, I don’t want to see talks of raids stigmatized by the same. I don’t want a higher tier. I want every player to be able to experience the content, if they so choose. Reward players with tokens/xp/etc and let the players select from a new look, again, if they so choose.

Winners are everyone.

The game doesn’t really cater to hardcore players. Its more of a game that caters to casual gamers.

sostronk.8167:

The game doesn’t really cater to hardcore players. Its more of a game that caters to casual gamers.

This game has a number of subgames: open world, dungeons, fractals, sPvP, WvWvW.

I would say Fractals is quite hardcore, and the Explorable dungeons were also at release, but not now that people have both learned them and learned movement skill and otherwise honed their expertise in this game.

It is the peaceful coexistence of many playstyles, more than any one playstyle, which defines this game.

alan, thank you for the post.

I actually agree that in order to be consistent with the rest of the game, that “raid” content ought to deliver different looking, cosmetic gear. As long as stats are not affected.

I put the comment in because I knew there was a difference between those that “raid” to have an advantage (whether real or imagined) and those that “raid” because they enjoy the challenge.

My guild and I happen to fall into the challenge box.

And looks are something we do purely for asthetics, not to wave around. Or use to look down on other players.

Thing is, this game already has a dungeon set up for those that want to raid for the challenge and earn tokens to get cosmetic gear.

The dungeons, as I have suggested before, just need to be tiered for difficulty: Storymode for new players trying to learn the game and basic strategies/tactics within the game, current Explorables (adjusted to avoid speed runs – this is another discussion), and a new third “mastery level” added for those that have mastered the game, their professions, gear etcetera and want to progress to a higher challenge. That third tier needs to be appropriately tuned (to avoid the Explorables issues – not an easy task) and maybe sliding progression so that it offers continuing rising levels of difficulty.

Reward players, again, with a combination of cosmetic gear and whatever game-mechanic “stat” would be unique only to the third tier and only useful there.

I know that goes against your comment on adding a new tier. One of the problems I’m trying to address is new players coming in. Storymode can be a learning ground. Explorables can be a place for new players to hone those skills. Unfortunately, the Explorables, as we’ve seen, may not be difficult enough for a segment of the player base. If Explorables are adjusted too high in difficulty to meet that segment, it impacts the newer players still learning, and those players that enjoy that level of dungeon. Adding a new tier (I’m not waving my hand assuming it is magically easy; I know better) is a business decision that has to weigh the trade-offs in game direction and current and potential constituents.

Agree with a win-win philosophy.

I understand you. Both could work, and could work rather well in their own ways. I just don’t want any players to feel left out, yet for those who do wish to engage the content to have something to show for it. As a WoW raider, I don’t subscribe to the mindset that “I worked for it, therefore I have to feel like a special snowflake” which is why I also suggest there not be a gear gating approach to this, nor do I want an added tier to wave around in people’s faces.

If people like the way the items look, then they too can jump right in and get ’em.

I don’t think either of our ideas has a “wrong answer” or a bad approach, as it were. We’re technically on similar pages of the same book. I guess what it would all come down to, is whether ANet decided to implement a system of raiding, and which gear approach they would take.

Looking back through your post, if the gear is something similar to the ascended gear (say, with an “infusion” adding agony resist, as an example), that could also be worthwhile. Have any +resist item drop within the first few bosses, perhaps while also having weak levels of said mechanic being applied to players from those bosses. As the raid progresses, have more of that mechanic going on, showing that the resist is a valuable thing to have.

A win-win philosophy is one thing I always strive for when trying to solve a problem. You can’t make everyone happy all the time, but so long as most people are happy, I feel good.

(It’s also 4am, and I don’t know why I’m still awake)