Guild Wars 2

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

Nope you missed my point. I did answer it.

No, you really didn’t. You obfuscated quite well, but never addressed the actual issue at hand. I once had a grad school professor tell me, “if your answer to a simple question is a page long, you’ve admitted you don’t know the answer.”

Obtena.7952:

Nothing ridiculous about it. In fact it’s clever because overly assuming people make their own interpretations of what ‘best statistical’ means and Anet can balk on their plans because of players misunderstanding what they meant. Clearly, it’s working on you. If I was Anet, I would claim that Ascended was best statistical gear because of stats AND relative ease of crafting it. You’re just being narrow minded in your interpretation because it fits your stance.

How exactly is “best statistical” up for interpretation? It’s not. It has a very distinct meaning. You’re talking out your kitten and it shows.

The simple answer is that people’s memories aren’t perfect. That’s the simple answer. I added detail because these answers were given very briefly by different people in different interviews who may very well have different memories and interpretations. That IS an answer.

Not sure why you’re bringing memories into this when ANet’s words are clearly documented. No need for memory when it’s written down and time/date stamped.

When the question was asked, Anet wasn’t sitting there with notes. They were depending on memory. I’m not sure at one point during the interviews you saw them pull out their filing cabinet to answer the questions. They answered interview questions and two people gave different answers. Were they both lying? Was one lying? Did one have a memory lapse? Did they have different points of view? You don’t know. It’s very easy to say people are lying. But it’s just as easy to not remember the orders that events occurred a year later. I suppose that’s never happened to you, but it’s sure happened to me.

So you’re saying that when Colin gave that interview he forgot ANet’s whole design philosophy regarding BiS loot? He had a memory lapse about one of the key points of the game? Really? Or maybe you’re suggesting that later when when ascended gear was announced they forgot they originally had a different design philosophy. They forgot they had worked FOR YEARS on one system of obtaining BiS only to implement a different system. That doesn’t sound ridiculous to you? Come on. Take off the blinders and be realistic.

I think someone is blind here and I think its’ not me. BOTH statements were made during interviews, but ONE predated the first. So when he said the statistical highest gear in the game to a magazine interview, it is entirely possible that at that point, that was the intent. The second interview was given much later. It’s entirely possible that he didn’t even think of that magazine interview when he said it the second time. That is to say, after the magazine interview, they discussed having a higher tier of gear and the situation changed. You’re saying he lied. I’m saying the time differential between the two interviews is enough for the situation to has changed.

Situations change all the time and memory isn’t 100%. An article was written that dyes would be account bound. At launch they weren’t. Did that person lie? Now they are.

Taking two points of view many months apart and trying to say that you were lying during the first doesn’t really say anything except that they’re different. When he said we always planned to have another tier, he might not have been thinking about the original intention at all. Because in his memory at that time, that was his recollection.

I’ve written novels where I’ve forgotten an important detail between the beginning and end of the novel, over a very short period of time, a matter of a few months. Did I lie to myself?

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

Nope you missed my point. I did answer it.

No, you really didn’t. You obfuscated quite well, but never addressed the actual issue at hand. I once had a grad school professor tell me, “if your answer to a simple question is a page long, you’ve admitted you don’t know the answer.”

Obtena.7952:

Nothing ridiculous about it. In fact it’s clever because overly assuming people make their own interpretations of what ‘best statistical’ means and Anet can balk on their plans because of players misunderstanding what they meant. Clearly, it’s working on you. If I was Anet, I would claim that Ascended was best statistical gear because of stats AND relative ease of crafting it. You’re just being narrow minded in your interpretation because it fits your stance.

How exactly is “best statistical” up for interpretation? It’s not. It has a very distinct meaning. You’re talking out your kitten and it shows.

The simple answer is that people’s memories aren’t perfect. That’s the simple answer. I added detail because these answers were given very briefly by different people in different interviews who may very well have different memories and interpretations. That IS an answer.

Not sure why you’re bringing memories into this when ANet’s words are clearly documented. No need for memory when it’s written down and time/date stamped.

When the question was asked, Anet wasn’t sitting there with notes. They were depending on memory. I’m not sure at one point during the interviews you saw them pull out their filing cabinet to answer the questions. They answered interview questions and two people gave different answers. Were they both lying? Was one lying? Did one have a memory lapse? Did they have different points of view? You don’t know. It’s very easy to say people are lying. But it’s just as easy to not remember the orders that events occurred a year later. I suppose that’s never happened to you, but it’s sure happened to me.

So you’re saying that when Colin gave that interview he forgot ANet’s whole design philosophy regarding BiS loot? He had a memory lapse about one of the key points of the game? Really? Or maybe you’re suggesting that later when when ascended gear was announced they forgot they originally had a different design philosophy. They forgot they had worked FOR YEARS on one system of obtaining BiS only to implement a different system. That doesn’t sound ridiculous to you? Come on. Take off the blinders and be realistic.

I think someone is blind here and I think its’ not me. BOTH statements were made during interviews, but ONE predated the first. So when he said the statistical highest gear in the game to a magazine interview, it is entirely possible that at that point, that was the intent. The second interview was given much later. It’s entirely possible that he didn’t even think of that magazine interview when he said it the second time. That is to say, after the magazine interview, they discussed having a higher tier of gear and the situation changed. You’re saying he lied. I’m saying the time differential between the two interviews is enough for the situation to has changed.

Situations change all the time and memory isn’t 100%. An article was written that dyes would be account bound. At launch they weren’t. Did that person lie? Now they are.

Taking two points of view many months apart and trying to say that you were lying during the first doesn’t really say anything except that they’re different. When he said we always planned to have another tier, he might not have been thinking about the original intention at all. Because in his memory at that time, that was his recollection.

I’ve written novels where I’ve forgotten an important detail between the beginning and end of the novel, over a very short period of time, a matter of a few months. Did I lie to myself?

The second statement, which denied the existence of the first, came after release. It came after Colin’s original statement was already the game’s norm. It would be as if teacher changed their grading policy in November, after using that system to grade students for over 2 months, and then claimed the old grading policy was never their intention, despite it being written on the syllabus.

I honestly can’t believe you’re attempting to make excuses for this kind of behavior.

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

Nope you missed my point. I did answer it.

snip

Obtena.7952:

Nothing ridiculous about it. In fact it’s clever because overly assuming people make their own interpretations of what ‘best statistical’ means and Anet can balk on their plans because of players misunderstanding what they meant. Clearly, it’s working on you. If I was Anet, I would claim that Ascended was best statistical gear because of stats AND relative ease of crafting it. You’re just being narrow minded in your interpretation because it fits your stance.

How exactly is “best statistical” up for interpretation? It’s not. It has a very distinct meaning. You’re talking out your kitten and it shows.

The simple answer is that people’s memories aren’t perfect. That’s the simple answer. I added detail because these answers were given very briefly by different people in different interviews who may very well have different memories and interpretations. That IS an answer.

snip

When the question was asked, Anet wasn’t sitting there with notes. They were depending on memory. I’m not sure at one point during the interviews you saw them pull out their filing cabinet to answer the questions. They answered interview questions and two people gave different answers. Were they both lying? Was one lying? Did one have a memory lapse? Did they have different points of view? You don’t know. It’s very easy to say people are lying. But it’s just as easy to not remember the orders that events occurred a year later. I suppose that’s never happened to you, but it’s sure happened to me.

So you’re saying that when Colin gave that interview he forgot ANet’s whole design philosophy regarding BiS loot? He had a memory lapse about one of the key points of the game? Really? Or maybe you’re suggesting that later when when ascended gear was announced they forgot they originally had a different design philosophy. They forgot they had worked FOR YEARS on one system of obtaining BiS only to implement a different system. That doesn’t sound ridiculous to you? Come on. Take off the blinders and be realistic.

I think someone is blind here and I think its’ not me. BOTH statements were made during interviews, but ONE predated the first. So when he said the statistical highest gear in the game to a magazine interview, it is entirely possible that at that point, that was the intent. The second interview was given much later. It’s entirely possible that he didn’t even think of that magazine interview when he said it the second time. That is to say, after the magazine interview, they discussed having a higher tier of gear and the situation changed. You’re saying he lied. I’m saying the time differential between the two interviews is enough for the situation to has changed.

Situations change all the time and memory isn’t 100%. An article was written that dyes would be account bound. At launch they weren’t. Did that person lie? Now they are.

Taking two points of view many months apart and trying to say that you were lying during the first doesn’t really say anything except that they’re different. When he said we always planned to have another tier, he might not have been thinking about the original intention at all. Because in his memory at that time, that was his recollection.

I’ve written novels where I’ve forgotten an important detail between the beginning and end of the novel, over a very short period of time, a matter of a few months. Did I lie to myself?

snip

I honestly can’t believe you’re attempting to make excuses for this kind of behavior.

You still don’t get it. It was an interview in a magazine, pre release. Now, it might very well have been that when ascended gear was first talked about, it would have had a different acquisition method. We simply don’t have enough information to make a judgement on this.

I worked in editing for a long long time and I’ve seen this kind of thing happen again and again. Not once or twice. It happens all the time. People say stuff, write stuff, and a year later, their memory of what was said, written or yes, even intended has changed. There are many MANY studies on memory you could look at if you want.

But you’d rather believe some theory that states that a guy who knows he said one thing deliberately contradicted himself. Do you think that’s more likely?

@NewTrain Was it Colin or another poster from ANet who said he didn’t say that? If it was someone else then they may not have seen that article. Like I said, they need someone to track what was said when so these types of situations do occur in the first place.

And just to be clear, their “lie” was the denial, not the addition of Ascended.

The two statements aren’t even directy contradictory. One said we had another tier of gear planned before release but didn’t release it. That doesn’t mean that tier of gear wasn’t easily attainable. Shrugs.

It would be nice if companies, like Anet, would be open about what they not are working on. Way too often game developers knows that certain things isnt gonna make it into the game, but they prefer to leave as many doors as possible open, to keep players hanging in there in the hope of maybe.
I think it would be nice with some kind of “what we want this year”-post, it would be even nicer with “sorry, was to difficult, too high cost, change of plan”-post, rather then hope ppl forget about it.
Anet is not alone in this kind of hyping/half-promises, and though everybody understands that plans and hopes can change, I dont understand why it seems it must be secret.
Granted, I have not read everything Anet has posted. Maybe they have locked some doors without my knowing, I mostly read forums, wich isnt the only place Anet communicate. Funnily enough..
Anets “problem”, as many other gamedevelopers, they have said too much in the past. And now its quite easy to jump to the conclusion that it was deliberatly, to make people buy the game and to make them stay.
I dont think anyone has lied. I just dont think that everybody have been completely honest.
Wich, sadly, happens all the time.
Everywhere.

Vayne.8563:

You still don’t get it. It was an interview in a magazine, pre release. Now, it might very well have been that when ascended gear was first talked about, it would have had a different acquisition method. We simply don’t have enough information to make a judgement on this.

I worked in editing for a long long time and I’ve seen this kind of thing happen again and again. Not once or twice. It happens all the time. People say stuff, write stuff, and a year later, their memory of what was said, written or yes, even intended has changed. There are many MANY studies on memory you could look at if you want.

But you’d rather believe some theory that states that a guy who knows he said one thing deliberately contradicted himself. Do you think that’s more likely?

No, you still don’t get it. What was said in the Eurogamer interview is near exactly what was released with the game. The notion that by level 80 everyone would have the best statistical gear. They clearly didn’t “forget” that idea because IT WAS WHAT WAS RELEASED. This has nothing to do with memory or forgetfulness. You know it and I know it. If you’d take off your white knight armor and look objectively at the situation, you’d see memory plays no role in this.

And do I think it’s likely that a company would lie in order to try and placate their customer base? Absolutely. You think that’s a rare occurrence or something?

Behellagh.1468:

@NewTrain Was it Colin or another poster from ANet who said he didn’t say that? If it was someone else then they may not have seen that article. Like I said, they need someone to track what was said when so these types of situations do occur in the first place.

And just to be clear, their “lie” was the denial, not the addition of Ascended.

It was Colin making both statements. Not a case of one hand being unaware of the other. And yes, the lie was the denial the Eurogamer interview statement occurred, not the addition of ascended gear.

I think New train is proving our points exactly ATM. No matter what Anet does, say, implement, unless it fits his narrative exactly, then anet will be chided and yelled at for not meeting THEIR expectations. If they say they will try to do something, it is taking as being written in stone, and if they don’t follow what was written, then they beat anet with said stone.

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

You still don’t get it. It was an interview in a magazine, pre release. Now, it might very well have been that when ascended gear was first talked about, it would have had a different acquisition method. We simply don’t have enough information to make a judgement on this.

I worked in editing for a long long time and I’ve seen this kind of thing happen again and again. Not once or twice. It happens all the time. People say stuff, write stuff, and a year later, their memory of what was said, written or yes, even intended has changed. There are many MANY studies on memory you could look at if you want.

But you’d rather believe some theory that states that a guy who knows he said one thing deliberately contradicted himself. Do you think that’s more likely?

No, you still don’t get it. What was said in the Eurogamer interview is near exactly what was released with the game. The notion that by level 80 everyone would have the best statistical gear. They clearly didn’t “forget” that idea because IT WAS WHAT WAS RELEASED. This has nothing to do with memory or forgetfulness. You know it and I know it. If you’d take off your white knight armor and look objectively at the situation, you’d see memory plays no role in this.

And do I think it’s likely that a company would lie in order to try and placate their customer base? Absolutely. You think that’s a rare occurrence or something?

Behellagh.1468:

@NewTrain Was it Colin or another poster from ANet who said he didn’t say that? If it was someone else then they may not have seen that article. Like I said, they need someone to track what was said when so these types of situations do occur in the first place.

And just to be clear, their “lie” was the denial, not the addition of Ascended.

It was Colin making both statements. Not a case of one hand being unaware of the other. And yes, the lie was the denial the Eurogamer interview statement occurred, not the addition of ascended gear.

I don’t think a company would so obviously lie, no. lol

NewTrain.7549:

The notion that by level 80 everyone would have the best statistical gear.

But that is exactly true
There is not raid-gated gear that only the 5% of the population can get , like WoW

Serophous.9085:

I think New train is proving our points exactly ATM. No matter what Anet does, say, implement, unless it fits his narrative exactly, then anet will be chided and yelled at for not meeting THEIR expectations. If they say they will try to do something, it is taking as being written in stone, and if they don’t follow what was written, then they beat anet with said stone.

There will always be an unreasonable minority. It’s still not an excuse to shut everyone out.

Serophous.9085:

I think New train is proving our points exactly ATM. No matter what Anet does, say, implement, unless it fits his narrative exactly, then anet will be chided and yelled at for not meeting THEIR expectations. If they say they will try to do something, it is taking as being written in stone, and if they don’t follow what was written, then they beat anet with said stone.

And again we have someone who jumps into the conversation blissfully unaware of what’s being discussed. Good job there!

Vayne.8563:

I don’t think a company would so obviously lie, no. lol

Someone doesn’t read the news then. I wish I had your level of naivete when it comes to corporate America.

NewTrain.7549:

Serophous.9085:

I think New train is proving our points exactly ATM. No matter what Anet does, say, implement, unless it fits his narrative exactly, then anet will be chided and yelled at for not meeting THEIR expectations. If they say they will try to do something, it is taking as being written in stone, and if they don’t follow what was written, then they beat anet with said stone.

And again we have someone who jumps into the conversation blissfully unaware of what’s being discussed. Good job there!

Vayne.8563:

I don’t think a company would so obviously lie, no. lol

Someone doesn’t read the news then. I wish I had your level of naivete when it comes to corporate America.

Either Colin is the super smart deceiver you think he is, or he’s like just a guy. A super smart deceiver wouldn’t say one thing publicly and then say a completely different thing publicly after. That makes no sense. Corporate America liars tend to be smarter than that.

Colin says something in an interview. It’s a casual comment discussion an ideal. Maybe during that time they talked about 2, 3, maybe 10 different iterations of what would be in the final game. He did say later that they’d always intended to add another tier of gear to the game. That may be true AND the first statement may be true.

The difference is, Colin isn’t sitting there like a lawyer trying to remember everything he ever said. He’s talking casually. That’s it. You can talk about Corporate America all you want. But in reality, that usually refers to like Apple, Microsoft and Coca Cola, not Arena Net and Joe’s Butcher.

You claim I’m naive. You’re jaded. The truth is somewhere in between. Colin issued two statements at different times that don’t directly contradict each other. When you apply the second statement to ascended gear AS IT EXISTS IN GAME NOW, it might very well seem like a contradiction, but you have to make the assumption that intending to have gear means the same thing as having the same acquisition method. Some of don’t make that assumption. You’ve chosen to. It’s nothing more than an assumption though.

NewTrain.7549:

Serophous.9085:

I think New train is proving our points exactly ATM. No matter what Anet does, say, implement, unless it fits his narrative exactly, then anet will be chided and yelled at for not meeting THEIR expectations. If they say they will try to do something, it is taking as being written in stone, and if they don’t follow what was written, then they beat anet with said stone.

And again we have someone who jumps into the conversation blissfully unaware of what’s being discussed. Good job there!

Vayne.8563:

I don’t think a company would so obviously lie, no. lol

Someone doesn’t read the news then. I wish I had your level of naivete when it comes to corporate America.

Bwhaha! You’re cute. Still proving my point.

There have been multiple responses to your posts (me included) but yet you are so stuck on your point that no matter what anyone says to you, they are wrong, you are right. If anet decides to get tired of dealing with that, why bother?

And yes, a minority of people can ruin things for a majority.

I truly don’t remember a time ANet has been very communicative, but i do remember them saying several times that they need to work on that. While i think that currently they do communicate more than they did with GW, it’s mostly shallow and vague. People need substance and a company can easily expect to hear rant or rave about changes, whether they tell us up front or not.

Something of note, like it might take 6 months to develop a map, is pretty disheartening news, since we could very well be looking at YEARS before we see any substantial expansion to the world, which is really what needs to happen. The living world is a fun idea and it does sound great, but in practice, it’s really not enough to keep players all that interested and seems to take a tremendous effort to implement a couple hours of playtime. This not to mention the level of bugs introduced each release.

One major point to talk about though, is the intro of the megaserver without any real feedback prior. It literally got dumped on the player base, and has 0 discussion since. That absolutely gets people riled up and i personally know several people that left (or only logs for story releases) because of it. I also really feel the China release has had a very large impact on how the rest of the world “feels” neglected. It might be a good move for money sake, but a bad one for reputation with the rest of the player base. They’ve really left us out, going from CDI’s and trying to engage us, to almost full radio silence.

Vayne.8563:

You made an assumption about what the second quote meant mate. Instead of repeating the same stuff over and over again, why not address that point. Show me the quote where he contradicted the first quote. I’d like to see it.

Enjoy!

PS: Fun fact, I found the video in a thread where you had like 30% of the posts.

Yep that’s the interview I remember. What he’s saying is that they didn’t prepare for how easy it was to get exotics. It was too easy. And yes, I know what he said the first time.

But I think it’s quite clear that what he said in the magazine in an interview was meant to mean that yes, it should be easy to get stuff at max level and here he’s saying they made it TOO easy. That is judgment on what was originally planned.

Only someone who is looking to try to catch them out would consider that a lie. In fact, it says a lot more about the person trying to catch them out than Colin.

I read this, very simply as what they originally did wasn’t working and they changed it. Which is exactly what I thought.

Now, he said something in a previous interview before launch that was an intention. That intention WAS in the game. That intention didn’t work. It didn’t work because it was too easy to get, whether they intended that to be the case or not.

Taking a literal 100% truth from a single sentence in an interview shows inflexibility.

In theory, you could get full ascended gear BEFORE level 80 in the current system and that they hadn’t counted on.

You’re just trying to find holes here. It’s easy enough to understand what he’s saying and see where he’s coming from. Lawyers and politicians dissect sentences to try to catch people out.

If you can’t see what was meant by this, then there’s not much else to talk about. I’m glad you posted that so everyone can see it and make up their own mind.

NewTrain.7549:

Well, yes when the facts objectively show you to be wrong, you’re wrong. It doesn’t matter if 100 people say an orange is purple, it doesn’t make it true.

But again, thanks for proving you don’t actually understand the discussion taking place.

You see? This is why you are funny. We can’t win. No one arguing with you can win!

Just like with the BiS issue. He never said BiS. “But he said statiscally best…”. Again, he never said BiS. “But he used a word with the same meaning.” Once again, never said BiS. You are argue all you want about synonyms, etc etc, but the fact remains the words ‘BiS’ were never used.

It really should be apparent now that anyone reasoning is reasoning with a brick wall. I doubt that even if a Dev came on here to try and talk with you, the toxicity would only cause the thread to be shut down, as soon enough, that Dev would realize (if they haven’t already) there is no point in trying to explain anything because you are firmly cemented in your position. If anything, devs need to keep avoiding you people because giving you the vindication that you exist would only cause you to feel empowered.

What are you even arguing for? Are you just arguing to prove you are right? This thread started as a suggestion that anet needs a spokes person, and its so far divulged into bringing up old articles and jabbing at anet (they lied! Deceivers!).

So what exactly are you after? What is your point? What do we have to say so you can say ‘I WIN’ and we can get on with an actual discussion?

Serophous.9085:

So what exactly are you after? What is your point?

Thank yet again for proving you have no idea what’s being discussed. I made my point very clear when I first posted (and quite a few times after that). Here it is again so maybe, just maybe, you can try and be relevant tot he conversation:

“It’s ridiculous to blame the players for ANet’s lack of forum communication.”

Vayne.8563:

So you ignore the places where I said I dislike the new trait system, and rng in the cash shop and stuff like that to try to prove a point? People will watch that video and make up their own minds. I’m pretty sure most of them wouldn’t agree with your narrow and selective interpretation.

But it’s people like you that do make it harder for companies to communicate with them.

When the overwhelmingly vast majority of your posts are defenses of ANet (which stretch on for pages, to the point where your posts alone make up half the thread), a tiny handful of scattered criticism holds very little weight.

You’ve been accused of this behavior by far more people than me. You’d think by now you’d have the introspective ability to realize what you’re doing.

NewTrain.7549:

Serophous.9085:

So what exactly are you after? What is your point?

Thank yet again for proving you have no idea what’s being discussed. I made my point very clear when I first posted (and quite a few times after that). Here it is again so maybe, just maybe, you can try and be relevant tot he conversation:

“It’s ridiculous to blame the players for ANet’s lack of forum communication.”

OK, you win. The medal is in the mail. You have no need to post anymore.

Serophous.9085:

NewTrain.7549:

Serophous.9085:

So what exactly are you after? What is your point?

Thank yet again for proving you have no idea what’s being discussed. I made my point very clear when I first posted (and quite a few times after that). Here it is again so maybe, just maybe, you can try and be relevant tot he conversation:

“It’s ridiculous to blame the players for ANet’s lack of forum communication.”

OK, you win. The medal is in the mail. You have no need to post anymore.

And I’m sure the return address is somewhere near Da’ Nile.

NewTrain.7549:

Serophous.9085:

NewTrain.7549:

Serophous.9085:

So what exactly are you after? What is your point?

Thank yet again for proving you have no idea what’s being discussed. I made my point very clear when I first posted (and quite a few times after that). Here it is again so maybe, just maybe, you can try and be relevant tot he conversation:

“It’s ridiculous to blame the players for ANet’s lack of forum communication.”

OK, you win. The medal is in the mail. You have no need to post anymore.

And I’m sure the return address is somewhere near Da’ Nile.

My god, I’m saying you win, and its not enough? Don’t be a sore winner. Your post was the correct post this whole time, it trumps all other posts in this thread, it should be the only post read in this thread.

Is that enough now?

comments get monitored all day but no one actually says a word to us. I dont understand it at all

when i read this topic, this is what i saw:

1st User: What you do at ArenaNet is you take the specifications from the customer and bring them down to the software engineers?

Admin: Yes, yes that’s right.

2nd User: Well then I just have to ask why can’t the customers take them directly to the software people?

Admin: Well, I’ll tell you why… because… engineers are not good at dealing with customers…

1st User: So you physically take the specs from the customer?

Admin: Well… No. My secretary does that… or they’re faxed.

2nd User: So then you must physically bring them to the software people?

Admin: Well… No. ah sometimes.

1st User: What would you say you do here?

Admin: Look I already told you, I deal with the @#$% customers so the engineers don’t have to. I have people skills! I am good at dealing with people, can’t you understand that? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

You made an assumption about what the second quote meant mate. Instead of repeating the same stuff over and over again, why not address that point. Show me the quote where he contradicted the first quote. I’d like to see it.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy7CcwnfUdU

PS: Fun fact, I found the video in a thread where you had like 30% of the posts.

While i’ve seen that interview, it’s interesting to note a few tidbits about it. I definitely don’t want to turn this into a megaserver discussion, but he did seem pretty clear the intent in design for the game was about the community (the world community on a macro level and the guild community on a micro one), so it was quite a shock to see them implement a megaserver system, then try to “sell it” over a twitch stream. So far we’ve gotten a sales pitch about how much better it will be and a second small bit on how they have a dedicated team working to improve the system. Both being extremely vague and shallow thoughts and not even much about the why involved with its release. 43 pages of feedback later, the majority not really happy with it. It’s an extremely polarizing topic, with very little direction. That’s a pretty huge issue to me, no solid direction, no this is our intent/direction we want to go with it. It feels more like a bandaid with tons of speculation about why it was even put in to begin with.

Second is, the big ideas they have for housing and guild halls. My personal take is that they release “something” and build it into the grand ideas they have for them over time. That they pick a very specific direction internally and work toward that, but in the meantime, create a simple version, one without all those amazing things they want to do with them. Between the clamor for GvG and guild spaces, putting out a couple maps that fit a guild hall concept (similar to a GW version), would be HUGE. It seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot with grand ideas when people really just want the basic concept, at least in the interim.

I really think the game lacks focus, lacks direction. Right now it feels like they are all over the place with concepts and grand ideas with very little in the way of execution of them. I get they want these grand releases, full of stuff no other MMO’s have and so on, but it seems to take a tremendous amount of man-power to release a few hours of playable content, when something like a basic GvG/guild hall system is really all that’s needed and has far more playability.

To be honest – communication between ANet and players is so meowed.

They don’t speak with us. Even if they do, it’s very rare for them to reply to OP question properly. It’s all about: “nothing is off the table”, “soon”, “sooner”, “we can’t tell you”, “we can’t speak about it”. They keep telling me this from the beginning. I don’t know if they’re trolling me or not.

I don’t require from them a specific date about an expansion or a content/feature pack but it would be very nice if they can tell me “we’ll speak about that after the final of LS2” instead of “we’ll tell you soon” or “when it’s done”. “When it’s done” is very rude.

I love how Funcom communicates with their players. They make “Game Director Letter” and I can read there: what they’ve done and what they’re doing. It’s really cool because I know that this game isn’t dead.

They should create our game with us but sometimes (with their replies) I feel like they have own vision and they don’t really care about my time and opinion.

kristof.7182:

To be honest – communication between ANet and players is so meowed.

They don’t speak with us. Even if they do, it’s very rare for them to reply to OP question properly. It’s all about: “nothing is off the table”, “soon”, “sooner”, “we can’t tell you”, “we can’t speak about it”. They keep telling me this from the beginning. I don’t know if they’re trolling me or not.

I don’t require from them a specific date about an expansion or a content/feature pack but it would be very nice if they can tell me “we’ll speak about that after the final of LS2” instead of “we’ll tell you soon” or “when it’s done”. “When it’s done” is very rude.

I love how Funcom communicates with their players. They make “Game Director Letter” and I can read there: what they’ve done and what they’re doing. It’s really cool because I know that this game isn’t dead.

They should create our game with us but sometimes (with their replies) I feel like they have own vision and they don’t really care about my time and opinion.

A.Net does talk to their players but in specific arenas. Read the Developers Blogs, etc and that is what they are thinking. What we are talking about here, is posters what specific answers to THEIR questions and if they don’t get it, they say that A.Net is being uncommunicative. Not true.

Funcom HAS to do it that way, they are such a screwed up company and TSW could have been a great game but Funcom took the FUN out if it.

LOL – you act like you are so important (Italicized). Remember, often times, the player does not see the bigger picture in the game and bullet focuses on one little aspect. I will give you an example. Trion, at the beginning of Rift, caved to players to nerf the Saboteur profession because people complained it was so OP. Rather than playing to find out that the Saboteur was a glass cannon, they just asked Trion to nerf and Trion did. It also affected many of the other professions and players then whined more. Remember A.NET owns the GW universe lock, stock and barrel. You are just borrowing it for a while. Your sweat and tears you put in playing this game is nothing compared to what they put into the game. Don’t put yourself in the same level of dedication.

OF COURSE A.NET HAS THEIR OWN VISION – DUH!!! They designed and built the game. If they didn’t have a vision, they shouldn’t be in the game design business. Just because they talk in platitudes about the vision of the game, doesn’t mean they aren’t listening but their priorities are more than likely different from you as a player.

@Dusty Moon.4382
Where is develpoers blog? I’m blind and stupid, sorry.
Are you talking about news after big announce of new feature? I’m not talking about this.
I’m talking about the process between idea and announcement. If people don’t know, they start asking and Game Director Letter is very good idea for that problem.

I used bold because I think it’s very important to speak about upcoming features and developer’s ideas. They said that they’re making two (or more, I don’t know) unannounced projects. With GDL they can announcement them and tell us every month what they’ve done and what still has to be done.

Rest of my post was about lack of communication in forum but in my opinion people don’t ask when they know what’s going on.

Monthly question and answer would be great too. Something like: “Hi! We saw a lot of topics this month. Here are our answer for frequently or interesting questions”. Obviously, they don’t have time to answer everyday but if they’re reading this (as they said) they can write down some of interesting question and answer when they have time.

About Funcom. They release two great pc games and dark-[modern]-fantasy MMOG like AoC and TSW. AoC was “very” bugged at the beginning but I had great time with this game. I can’t play anymore because servers are in NA and I have too big ping. TSW wasn’t that bad. There’s a lot of fun now. I see more irritation in your post and I don’t think it’s about TSW.

AoC GDL:
“Work on the crafting system continues, but due to the complexity of the system we have kept the system separate to the regular updates. This gives us two advantages – it doesn’t lock us down to a certain code release and it allows us to release it as soon as it is completed. Over the past couple of months we’ve been debugging and testing and fixing. Here are some examples of the systems […].”

Isn’t great? I prefer this instead of “we’ll tell you when it’s done”.

Check general discussion and suggestions. It’s all about new profession, new map, new PvP mode, new race, housing & guild hall, new expansion. I’m sure it’s already in making but it’s hard to stay in this game if you don’t know where this game is heading.

@Back to edit:
I don’t act like important and obviously they have their own vision and we give them only feedback about their vision. They gave us kitty Living Story 1. We said what was wrong and they gave is epic (in my opinion) living story 2.

I think I was misunderstood. It’s not too good when players take control over the game development but this game is for players not for developers (they are players too but it’s only 300 people (or more?); and I’m not saying that they can’t play, don’t misunderstand me again, please). I’m saying that players feedback is important but with their silence and kitty replies like “we’ll ltell you when it’s done” I just don’t feel like they’re interesting in my opinion.

kristof.7182:

@Dusty Moon.4382
Where is develpoers blog? I’m blind and stupid, sorry.
Are you talking about news after big announce of new feature? I’m not talking about this.
I’m talking about the process between idea and announcement. If people don’t know, they start asking and Game Director Letter is very good idea for that problem.

I used bold because I think it’s very important to speak about upcoming features and developer’s ideas. They said that they’re making two (or more, I don’t know) unannounced projects. With GDL they can announcement them and tell us every month what they’ve done and what still has to be done.

Rest of my post was about lack of communication in forum but in my opinion people don’t ask when they know what’s going on.

Monthly question and answer would be great too. Something like: “Hi! We saw a lot of topics this month. Here are our answer for frequently or interesting questions”. Obviously, they don’t have time to answer everyday but if they’re reading this (as they said) they can write down some of interesting question and answer when they have time.

About Funcom. They release two great pc games and dark-[modern]-fantasy MMOG like AoC and TSW. AoC was “very” bugged at the beginning but I had great time with this game. I can’t play anymore because servers are in NA and I have too big ping. TSW wasn’t that bad. There’s a lot of fun now. I see more irritation in your post and I don’t think it’s about TSW.

AoC GDL:
“Work on the crafting system continues, but due to the complexity of the system we have kept the system separate to the regular updates. This gives us two advantages – it doesn’t lock us down to a certain code release and it allows us to release it as soon as it is completed. Over the past couple of months we’ve been debugging and testing and fixing. Here are some examples of the systems […].”

Isn’t great? I prefer this instead of “we’ll tell you when it’s done”.

Check general discussion and suggestions. It’s all about new profession, new map, new PvP mode, new race, housing & guild hall, new expansion. I’m sure it’s already in making but it’s hard to stay in this game if you don’t know where this game is heading.

@Back to edit:
I don’t act like important and obviously they have their own vision and we give them only feedback about their vision. They gave us kitty Living Story 1. We said what was wrong and they gave is epic (in my opinion) living story 2.

I think I was misunderstood. It’s not too good when players take control over the game development but this game is for players not for developers (they are players too but it’s only 300 people (or more?)). I’m saying that players feedback is important but with their silence and kitty replies like “we’ll ltell you when it’s done”. I just don’t feel like they’re interesting in my opinion.

You misunderstand – this is the developers ideas that players play. If you want a game that has your ideas in it, design one.

So why they gave us “Game discussion” and “Suggestions”?
I said “we give them feadback and ideas” not “we create our own game and we need ANet only for technical things” (it’s “our” game because we’re part of this game; Earth is “our” too).

TBH, without feedback about LS1 GW2 would be already dead. I discussed LS1 with my guildmates and we agreed that if next LS2 going to be crap again – we’re quitting.
We’re still here and I think we weren’t alone.

My point in all of this is not that changing the game is in any way dishonest or a lie. As I said before, saying something to the effect of, “we tried X, wanted it to work, it didn’t, so we had to change it,” is one thing. I may not be happy that X, a huge part of why I bought the game, didn’t work (may even feel that they didn’t give it enough of a chance) but I run a business and know that not everything works out how you originally planned.

Denying that X was ever intended/expected is something else entirely in my opinion.

kristof.7182:

So why they gave us “Game discussion” and “Suggestions”?
I said “we give them feadback and ideas” not “we create our own game and we need ANet only for technical things” (it’s “our” game because we’re part of this game; Earth is “our” too).

TBH, without feedback about LS1 GW2 would be already dead. I discussed LS1 with my guildmates and we agreed that if next LS2 going to be crap again – we’re quitting.
We’re still here and I think we weren’t alone.

Game discussion is there for what the title says, game discussion. But too often do threads devolve into about the company and not the game. Talking about things working or not working is fine, but too often it divulges into attacks.

Suggestions should be given and realized for what they are, suggestions. We can suggest things all we want, but its up to the devs if they want to try them or not. But too many times do people assume that if their suggestion isn’t used or spoken about, then either A – ‘Anet isn’t listening to me! They don’t care!‘. B – ’my idea is flawless! Why hasn’t anet implemented it yet? Its sooooo easy to do.’ And he old rarely thought of C – ‘Maybe my idea wasn’t so good after all cause it wasn’t fully thought through, or perhaps anet can’t implement it do to tech or time constraints’.

kristof.7182:

So why they gave us “Game discussion” and “Suggestions”?
I said “we give them feadback and ideas” not “we create our own game and we need ANet only for technical things” (it’s “our” game because we’re part of this game; Earth is “our” too).

TBH, without feedback about LS1 GW2 would be already dead. I discussed LS1 with my guildmates and we agreed that if next LS2 going to be crap again – we’re quitting.
We’re still here and I think we weren’t alone.

“Suggestions” is there so people with suggestions have a place to put them without clogging the other subforums and “game discussion” is here for people to have a place to rant.

Anet reads feedbacks, and I do hope that they realize when something really is terrible (LS1). But aside from that, they have their own objectives and priorities, and people creating hundreds of threads about something (like mounts, or armor art issues) won’t change anything.

I’m on the fence about forum interaction. The forums are pretty demanding work for them although I can understand why people want to see more from them. Even the CDI’s have dried up. OK, I freely admit I found them nauseatingly bureacratic, but I was a minority in disliking them. If ppl found the useful and productive, why haven’t they carried on?

What I can’t understand is the complete lack of Games director updates. Every mmo I have played, the GD keeps in touch via some kind of letter on the webpage. I really don’t understand why it doesn’t happen here. China is no longer an excuse. Living Story isn’t an excuse. Typing up one GD letter a month or every quarter isn’t so much work.

Ashen.2907:

My point in all of this is not that changing the game is in any way dishonest or a lie. As I said before, saying something to the effect of, “we tried X, wanted it to work, it didn’t, so we had to change it,” is one thing. I may not be happy that X, a huge part of why I bought the game, didn’t work (may even feel that they didn’t give it enough of a chance) but I run a business and know that not everything works out how you originally planned.

Denying that X was ever intended/expected is something else entirely in my opinion.

You’re still not getting what I’m saying. People tend to talk casually. They talk about intentions all the time. Even WHILE talking about that, there’s more than one person that works at and designs a game and not everyone is always going to be on the same page. Anet had an IDEA of what they wanted to do and discussed that idea.

Now months and months later (I’m pretty sure it was more than a year) after countless conversations, Colin doesn’t remember that interview specifically. It was ten minutes of his time at a convention during which he talked about what he was going to do, what he aimed for. And sure, that’s the general idea.

What he said later wasn’t denying that was the idea. He was saying if you listen, that the idea really didn’t work. There’s a very fine line between saying that it was too easy and we didn’t realize it would be that easy and saying and MEANING that it was too easy for players to do that.

This isn’t Colin coming out and insisting I never said that. It’s not what happened here. You’re taking a casual conversation during a single interview and a defensive posture at another interview and trying to make them directly contradictory. This isn’t a court. He’s not self-editing very well.

What I got from watching that video was that getting exotics was even easier than they thought it would be, and they didn’t want it to be quite that easy. I believe that, as with many things, Anet overcompensated with ascended weapons, but they simply wanted to make sure they didn’t make the same mistake again.

Essentially what was a hot button topic for you and others like you was a side thing for Colin. It was an idea he may have liked when he said it during that interview, but that doesn’t mean it was so vitally important to him, like it was to you. You’re taking a single line from an interview as gospel. It probably wasn’t.

That’s on you, not anyone else. It’s very likely that Colin when he said that had every single intention of doing that. But it’s not unlikely that that intention wasn’t a major factor in driving the game forward. You’re assuming he did everything with that goal in mind. I’m not. I think fans were far more vested in that line than Anet ever was. I was one of those fans. I believed it would be like Guild Wars 1. That’s the real issue here.

Now a year after he says the first thing, without the great emotional attachment to it, someone asks him a different question and he answers it. He’s not denying he ever said that. Indeed he hasn’t said anything about denying it.

But if this thing is said in one interview at a convention was a major gaming point you’d think it would have appeared in other places like, I don’t know, their website? Their FAQ? Something other than a single interview.

This isn’t something they based their game around, even though that one line was something fans based their expectations around. That’s how I read this. He wasn’t talking like someone who was contradicting himself. I’m sure he doesn’t even remember saying that first bit. That’s how projects like this tend to work.

I dont’ remember old versions of novels I edited a year ago. I don’t have room in my head for what I originally intended. Not unless it was a major plot issue. Side points that I changed…three, four months later, it’s as if they never happened.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

My point in all of this is not that changing the game is in any way dishonest or a lie. As I said before, saying something to the effect of, “we tried X, wanted it to work, it didn’t, so we had to change it,” is one thing. I may not be happy that X, a huge part of why I bought the game, didn’t work (may even feel that they didn’t give it enough of a chance) but I run a business and know that not everything works out how you originally planned.

Denying that X was ever intended/expected is something else entirely in my opinion.

You’re still not getting what I’m saying. People tend to talk casually. They talk about intentions all the time. Even WHILE talking about that, there’s more than one person that works at and designs a game and not everyone is always going to be on the same page. Anet had an IDEA of what they wanted to do and discussed that idea.

Now months and months later (I’m pretty sure it was more than a year) after countless conversations, Colin doesn’t remember that interview specifically. It was ten minutes of his time at a convention during which he talked about what he was going to do, what he aimed for. And sure, that’s the general idea.

What he said later wasn’t denying that was the idea. He was saying if you listen, that the idea really didn’t work. There’s a very fine line between saying that it was too easy and we didn’t realize it would be that easy and saying and MEANING that it was too easy for players to do that.

If that’s the case, then that’s what interns and before-interview briefings are for. Pre launch interviews are advertising. This is not some little company, this is a company that spent many millions of dollars producing a product. They can and should be held to a higher standard than Joe’s Hot Tubs. Believe it if you like, but this defense makes them look like amateurs.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

My point in all of this is not that changing the game is in any way dishonest or a lie. As I said before, saying something to the effect of, “we tried X, wanted it to work, it didn’t, so we had to change it,” is one thing. I may not be happy that X, a huge part of why I bought the game, didn’t work (may even feel that they didn’t give it enough of a chance) but I run a business and know that not everything works out how you originally planned.

Denying that X was ever intended/expected is something else entirely in my opinion.

You’re still not getting what I’m saying. People tend to talk casually. They talk about intentions all the time. Even WHILE talking about that, there’s more than one person that works at and designs a game and not everyone is always going to be on the same page. Anet had an IDEA of what they wanted to do and discussed that idea.

Now months and months later (I’m pretty sure it was more than a year) after countless conversations, Colin doesn’t remember that interview specifically. It was ten minutes of his time at a convention during which he talked about what he was going to do, what he aimed for. And sure, that’s the general idea.

What he said later wasn’t denying that was the idea. He was saying if you listen, that the idea really didn’t work. There’s a very fine line between saying that it was too easy and we didn’t realize it would be that easy and saying and MEANING that it was too easy for players to do that.

If that’s the case, then that’s what interns and before-interview briefings are for. Pre launch interviews are advertising. This is not some little company, this is a company that spent many millions of dollars producing a product. They can and should be held to a higher standard than Joe’s Hot Tubs. Believe it if you like, but this defense makes them look like amateurs.

Assuming the questions were given to them first, which doesn’t always happen. No a single line from a single interview doesn’t qualify as advertising even if the interview qualifies as promotion.

No one hangs onto words like fans. But devs use words more casually. No one can interact with fans on a casual basis at a con and get every word right, or even remember what they said a year later.

In court, if you tried to say it was false advertising a lawyer would say look at the thousands of hours we talked about the game. Look at one single statement in one single interview at a con. It’s meaningless except to you and people like you. It’s not a core promise that this is how things will be period. It’s an idea they had that they liked and would have probably kept if the experiences with the game bore them out. But even with that said, saying that we didnt’ expect people to get weapons as quickly as they did doesn’t make the first statement a lie. It was too easy, even for what they expected. They had a casual idea of where they wanted to be and it wasnt’ met. It’s not science it’s art. It was too easy to get the weapons according to what he expected, probably even when he gave that interview.

The problem here, for me, is you’re trying to make it look like someone said something vital, central to the game for them, and then went back on their word without a word. To most people, who never saw that interview btw (and I guarantee you most didn’t) the second interview explained everything perfectly.

If it was such a big deal, so central to the game design we’d have heard a lot more about it. We did hear it briefly maybe even a couple of times, but it wasn’t a guiding force for them. That sentence took on far more meaning to you, because to you it was vitally important.

I like things being acknowledged, even if it is just to say, “We have no plans for this right now,” or “we will not be doing anything like this.”

Simply because… tossing things into a void feels pointless and there are so many threads made that it’s hard to know whether something was heard silently or missed completely.

So for me, it really does stop at “wanting to know that I was heard.” I mean, I’m a grownup – I can handle a “no” or “maybe.” But I don’t like putting a lot of thought into something and feeling like not even a single kitten was given in return.

That said, I understand that in some professions, it’s just not logistically plausible to acknowledge everything and still do your job.

But then at the same time, PR people are hired for a reason and too often with MMOs, I feel like the PR people don’t actually do much of anything on the forums, despite forums being one of the best ways for players to articulate complex bits of feedback. In fact, I have to assume that most PR people for these games do a lot of behind-the-scenes work (which would seem contrary to public relations, but whatever) because I don’t see them in the spotlight a lot – even when compared to the activity of some of the game developers.

So maybe I have a different understanding of what public relations means. I mean, I realize they typically use some fancy term like “community” this or “community” that, but it still seems like it would be more publicly used.

Anet does need someone to talk to the forums to speak about the game. The issue right now is nobody knows where the game is going so they ask themselves do I wait and keep playing or move on. They need a general road map for each game mode so players know what is coming and what might.

As far as it being the players fault anet says nothing is wrong no matter what they do someone won’t like it and its the same with every game.

Pulling up old interviews is pointless because things change simple as that and you may or may not like it.

Quick question what happened to the atlas I just noticed its gone.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

My point in all of this is not that changing the game is in any way dishonest or a lie. As I said before, saying something to the effect of, “we tried X, wanted it to work, it didn’t, so we had to change it,” is one thing. I may not be happy that X, a huge part of why I bought the game, didn’t work (may even feel that they didn’t give it enough of a chance) but I run a business and know that not everything works out how you originally planned.

Denying that X was ever intended/expected is something else entirely in my opinion.

You’re still not getting what I’m saying. People tend to talk casually. They talk about intentions all the time. Even WHILE talking about that, there’s more than one person that works at and designs a game and not everyone is always going to be on the same page. Anet had an IDEA of what they wanted to do and discussed that idea.

Now months and months later (I’m pretty sure it was more than a year) after countless conversations, Colin doesn’t remember that interview specifically. It was ten minutes of his time at a convention during which he talked about what he was going to do, what he aimed for. And sure, that’s the general idea.

What he said later wasn’t denying that was the idea. He was saying if you listen, that the idea really didn’t work. There’s a very fine line between saying that it was too easy and we didn’t realize it would be that easy and saying and MEANING that it was too easy for players to do that.

This isn’t Colin coming out and insisting I never said that. It’s not what happened here. You’re taking a casual conversation during a single interview and a defensive posture at another interview and trying to make them directly contradictory. This isn’t a court. He’s not self-editing very well.

What I got from watching that video was that getting exotics was even easier than they thought it would be, and they didn’t want it to be quite that easy. I believe that, as with many things, Anet overcompensated with ascended weapons, but they simply wanted to make sure they didn’t make the same mistake again.

Essentially what was a hot button topic for you and others like you was a side thing for Colin. It was an idea he may have liked when he said it during that interview, but that doesn’t mean it was so vitally important to him, like it was to you. You’re taking a single line from an interview as gospel. It probably wasn’t.

That’s on you, not anyone else. It’s very likely that Colin when he said that had every single intention of doing that. But it’s not unlikely that that intention wasn’t a major factor in driving the game forward. You’re assuming he did everything with that goal in mind. I’m not. I think fans were far more vested in that line than Anet ever was. I was one of those fans. I believed it would be like Guild Wars 1. That’s the real issue here.

Now a year after he says the first thing, without the great emotional attachment to it, someone asks him a different question and he answers it. He’s not denying he ever said that. Indeed he hasn’t said anything about denying it.

But if this thing is said in one interview at a convention was a major gaming point you’d think it would have appeared in other places like, I don’t know, their website? Their FAQ? Something other than a single interview.

This isn’t something they based their game around, even though that one line was something fans based their expectations around. That’s how I read this. He wasn’t talking like someone who was contradicting himself. I’m sure he doesn’t even remember saying that first bit. That’s how projects like this tend to work.

I dont’ remember old versions of novels I edited a year ago. I don’t have room in my head for what I originally intended. Not unless it was a major plot issue. Side points that I changed…three, four months later, it’s as if they never happened.

A media interview used as part of the marketing campaign for a product is not a casual conversation.

The game launched with essentially (for the most part) what was discussed in the interview. Not a casual conversation about what they might like to do, a description of what they did. A description of a very important part of the game design, a fundamental philosophy of the game.

Vayne.8563:

But if this thing is said in one interview at a convention was a major gaming point you’d think it would have appeared in other places like, I don’t know, their website? Their FAQ? Something other than a single interview.

Hmm, the supposed clarification of the manifesto isn’t on their website, FAQ, etc. Does that it isn’t relevant ?

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

My point in all of this is not that changing the game is in any way dishonest or a lie. As I said before, saying something to the effect of, “we tried X, wanted it to work, it didn’t, so we had to change it,” is one thing. I may not be happy that X, a huge part of why I bought the game, didn’t work (may even feel that they didn’t give it enough of a chance) but I run a business and know that not everything works out how you originally planned.

Denying that X was ever intended/expected is something else entirely in my opinion.

You’re still not getting what I’m saying. People tend to talk casually. They talk about intentions all the time. Even WHILE talking about that, there’s more than one person that works at and designs a game and not everyone is always going to be on the same page. Anet had an IDEA of what they wanted to do and discussed that idea.

Now months and months later (I’m pretty sure it was more than a year) after countless conversations, Colin doesn’t remember that interview specifically. It was ten minutes of his time at a convention during which he talked about what he was going to do, what he aimed for. And sure, that’s the general idea.

What he said later wasn’t denying that was the idea. He was saying if you listen, that the idea really didn’t work. There’s a very fine line between saying that it was too easy and we didn’t realize it would be that easy and saying and MEANING that it was too easy for players to do that.

This isn’t Colin coming out and insisting I never said that. It’s not what happened here. You’re taking a casual conversation during a single interview and a defensive posture at another interview and trying to make them directly contradictory. This isn’t a court. He’s not self-editing very well.

What I got from watching that video was that getting exotics was even easier than they thought it would be, and they didn’t want it to be quite that easy. I believe that, as with many things, Anet overcompensated with ascended weapons, but they simply wanted to make sure they didn’t make the same mistake again.

Essentially what was a hot button topic for you and others like you was a side thing for Colin. It was an idea he may have liked when he said it during that interview, but that doesn’t mean it was so vitally important to him, like it was to you. You’re taking a single line from an interview as gospel. It probably wasn’t.

That’s on you, not anyone else. It’s very likely that Colin when he said that had every single intention of doing that. But it’s not unlikely that that intention wasn’t a major factor in driving the game forward. You’re assuming he did everything with that goal in mind. I’m not. I think fans were far more vested in that line than Anet ever was. I was one of those fans. I believed it would be like Guild Wars 1. That’s the real issue here.

Now a year after he says the first thing, without the great emotional attachment to it, someone asks him a different question and he answers it. He’s not denying he ever said that. Indeed he hasn’t said anything about denying it.

But if this thing is said in one interview at a convention was a major gaming point you’d think it would have appeared in other places like, I don’t know, their website? Their FAQ? Something other than a single interview.

This isn’t something they based their game around, even though that one line was something fans based their expectations around. That’s how I read this. He wasn’t talking like someone who was contradicting himself. I’m sure he doesn’t even remember saying that first bit. That’s how projects like this tend to work.

snip

A media interview used as part of the marketing campaign for a product is not a casual conversation.

The game launched with essentially (for the most part) what was discussed in the interview. Not a casual conversation about what they might like to do, a description of what they did. A description of a very important part of the game design, a fundamental philosophy of the game.

Vayne.8563:

But if this thing is said in one interview at a convention was a major gaming point you’d think it would have appeared in other places like, I don’t know, their website? Their FAQ? Something other than a single interview.

Hmm, the supposed clarification of the manifesto isn’t on their website, FAQ, etc. Does that it isn’t relevant ?

Relevant to a specific conversation not relevant to claim this game was advertised on this point. It was a point in an interview. The manifesto clarification was issued to address confusion on a specific point. It’s relevant to that point. Relevancy is relative.

Ashen, let me put it another way. Every day every person says thousands of things, some very serious and some very casual. Even in an interview, they’re addressing a question. They’re not making THE selling point of the game. It’s like a side show.

If I told my wife in a conversation that I was going to stop by the shop on the way home and I didn’t get to it, it wouldn’t be a big deal. Even if she expected me to. Reasonable people just think, okay he forget, he didn’t get to it, he got delayed, the shop was closed. And she might say, you know you didn’t go to the shop. And I say well yeah, I didn’t. Life happens. I got distracted. It wasn’t like this great major promise.

The amount of time someone spends talking about something pre-launch is the amount of importance it has to the game’s main philosphy. If the game is hard core raiding game, the company will push the game AS a hard core raid game.

There are fans out there who are very very attached to the whole no vertical progression thing, period. So attached to it, even a single sentence from an interview becomes this enormous thing. But I saw all the same interviews and yes, I wanted no vertical progression. I just saw how much they talked about it and I realized over time, it wasn’t that big a deal TO ANET. It wasn’t foremost in their thoughts. The words they said about it WERE casual. They were talking about an ideal. That’s a goal. It’s not an official blog post. Even if it were, if someone mentions something once in an official blogpost (ie dyes being account bound), it’s not lying to change it.

Colin didn’t say he never said this. But his later comments could easily have been made without even thinking there was something different to what he said before. The idea or concept that it was easier to get exotics than they’d planned is not mutually exclusive with what was said earlier.

You’re holding the devs to an impossible standard if you think they can parse every word and every sentence. It’s not possible for any human. If you honestly look at your own life, you can easily see how those sorts of things can get misinterpreted.

From your posts it’s obvious you’re a smart guy. When you really look at it, how can you believe this was some core point of such importance to Anet that they didn’t dare change it?

It was VERY important to fans who feel the way you do. So important that extra weight got applied to the statement. I did the same thing. Exactly the same thing. I believed the very same stuff you believed from that statement.

But I’m guessing less than 5% of the fan base ever saw or heard that statement when it was made. And I’m guessing Anet didn’t have the same importance associated with it that we did. They were just going to stop on the shop on the way home.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen, let me put it another way. Every day every person says thousands of things, some very serious and some very casual. Even in an interview, they’re addressing a question. They’re not making THE selling point of the game. It’s like a side show.

As I said, it is PART of the marketing campaign. I do not claim that it was the only selling point.

Vayne.8563:

If I told my wife in a conversation that I was going to stop by the shop on the way home and I didn’t get to it, it wouldn’t be a big deal. Even if she expected me to. Reasonable people just think, okay he forget, he didn’t get to it, he got delayed, the shop was closed. And she might say, you know you didn’t go to the shop. And I say well yeah, I didn’t. Life happens. I got distracted. It wasn’t like this great major promise.

How would she take it if you told her that you never intended to stop at the shop?.

Vayne.8563:

The words they said about it WERE casual. They were talking about an ideal. That’s a goal. It’s not an official blog post. Even if it were, if someone mentions something once in an official blogpost (ie dyes being account bound), it’s not lying to change it.

In an interview with outside media an authority figure representing the game made a statement as part of the marketing campaign for the game. That is not casual.

And no, it is not lying to make changes at a later point because those changes were not present at the time the statement was made (for example dyes). That is not my point. That is not what I am saying.

Vayne.8563:

The idea or concept that it was easier to get exotics than they’d planned is not mutually exclusive with what was said earlier.

Yes it is.

Vayne.8563:

You’re holding the devs to an impossible standard if you think they can parse every word and every sentence. It’s not possible for any human. If you honestly look at your own life, you can easily see how those sorts of things can get misinterpreted.

I am not involved in the marketing campaign for a product. In my work environment there are some pretty strict regulations regarding how I and my subordinates are allowed to interact with the public regarding my company’s products.

Vayne.8563:

From your posts it’s obvious you’re a smart guy. When you really look at it, how can you believe this was some core point of such importance to Anet that they didn’t dare change it?

My assumption is that they changed their direction in that regard in an attempt to increase player retention. Understandably so as the appearance of a dead game is likely to lead to a dead game. But then again that is not my point. I may not like the change, I altered my spending on the game in its aftermath, but I can understand it. I have never made a claim that this element was something of such importance that they didn’t dare change it. obviously they did dare change it. In my opinion nothing in the game is above change, no matter how important, if change is necessary to save the game. I pretty much assume that such is the case with any business.

It was VERY important to fans who feel the way you do. So important that extra weight got applied to the statement. I did the same thing. Exactly the same thing. I believed the very same stuff you believed from that statement.

Vayne.8563:

But I’m guessing less than 5% of the fan base ever saw or heard that statement when it was made. And I’m guessing Anet didn’t have the same importance associated with it that we did.

Which is perfectly fine. They needed to make a change in order to preserve the game, perhaps the change was mandated by the parent company. We do not know. But the change is not, and hasn’t been my point.

Vayne.8563:

They were just going to stop on the shop on the way home.

And then told their wife that they never intended to stop at the shop on the way home.

PS: I know that we argue quite a bit but I do want to make clear that I agree with much of what you have to say and usually respect your point even when I disagree.

The way I see it, horizontal progression was a big part of their plan for the game. It was big enough to be touted many times. Cosmetic endgame was also another way of saying the same thing, and that was talked to death. So, when someone says, “Hey, stats are not what you will be pursuing once you’ve hit max level.” along with all the rest about rare looks being the endgame pursuit, and when that’s the way the game looks at launch, it’s not a stretch to think that that was what was intended.

So, they changed their minds. That’s perfectly reasonable. However, the way they talked about it left the impression that they hadn’t changed their minds — and had always intended the game to include time-consuming to get max stat items, but fumbled the ball with exotics. This to me is ill-considered and poor PR. I understand that ANet does not owe us anything with regard to communication, however when they do communicate, what I hear is circumlocutions and PR speak, not frank, open discussion — which I would prefer.

What they said was they always intended to include another tier of gear. What they didn’t say was that it was meant to be as hard to get as ascended became. That’s Anet doing what they often do…overcompensating.

But my point still stands. You have to troll through an awful lot of what they said about the game to get to the point where you believe there would be no vertical progression…particularly since vertical progression existed in the game at launch.

I’m not denying that Anet changed directions. They made adjustments based on the fact that after launch they felt exotic gear was too easy to get. They have to ride a balance between easy to get and giving people something to do. Frankly I think they got the balance wrong. I’ve never been in favor of ascended gear.

But by the same token I’m not looking at what was said a year before launch as gospel. I genuinely believe this wasn’t a core focus of Anet. It was something they discussed sure. But it wasn’t their driving force. If it happened to be a player’s driving force, those statements would carry a lot more weight than they’d carry in the minds of most people.

Vayne.8563:

But my point still stands. You have to troll through an awful lot of what they said about the game to get to the point where you believe there would be no vertical progression…particularly since vertical progression existed in the game at launch.

You mean “trawl” through, not “troll”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

But my point still stands. You have to troll through an awful lot of what they said about the game to get to the point where you believe there would be no vertical progression…particularly since vertical progression existed in the game at launch.

You mean “trawl” through, not “troll”.

I do. lol Must have been freudian.

I wouldn’t worry, though if we want to insist ANet gets the verbiage exact when they say stuff, we should endeavor to do the same.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I wouldn’t worry, though if we want to insist ANet gets the verbiage exact when they say stuff, we should endeavor to do the same.

I’m not worried. But I’m not the one who’s insisting that Anet get their verbiage exact. That’s sort of my whole point all along.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The way I see it, horizontal progression was a big part of their plan for the game. It was big enough to be touted many times. Cosmetic endgame was also another way of saying the same thing, and that was talked to death. So, when someone says, “Hey, stats are not what you will be pursuing once you’ve hit max level.” along with all the rest about rare looks being the endgame pursuit, and when that’s the way the game looks at launch, it’s not a stretch to think that that was what was intended.

So, they changed their minds. That’s perfectly reasonable. However, the way they talked about it left the impression that they hadn’t changed their minds — and had always intended the game to include time-consuming to get max stat items, but fumbled the ball with exotics. This to me is ill-considered and poor PR. I understand that ANet does not owe us anything with regard to communication, however when they do communicate, what I hear is circumlocutions and PR speak, not frank, open discussion — which I would prefer.

i do too. hey if they make mistakes come out and say it. i felt about the ascended armor if they would have stated it hey we were wrong about exotic and we decided it better for the game to put in another layer instead of we intended this at launch but never got implemented i would have been ok with it. straight shoot for me and youll keep me. i understand games got to change and changes are needed.

megaservers were one thing i think if they would have have been more open with what they were doing and what they were going to implement they would have had a better reaction. yes i understand a lot of people complain about changes but maybe if they walked us slowly through it they could address those concerns before they release it. this was one thing that kind of got sprang on the community and yes we asked for it with our threads about dead servers but i think a lot of the rp side of felt they got boned with them being implemented.

guild halls something they stated they put on the back burner a while and a lot of people want them. id like to know why they were put there was it something they didnt feel like they could do right? are they still being worked on? are they just a paper that sits on someones desk and forgotten? hey yes a lot of people would be mad if they came out and said yes we arent doing them ok move on. same thing about mounts open world one on one. id love to know if they are still thinking about doing this stuff or no chance. one id know id quit the game but id respect them for letting me know the other i could live with but want to know. id be more mad if they sprung one or both of those on us without letting us know first and they get no respect from me and id badmouth them any chance i get. i understand this game isnt for everyone but if they let me know which direction they are taking id respect them and play furture games they might release but throwing stuf at us that ticks me of would cause me to never play a game of there again