Guild Wars 2

Taken from here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/runes-sigils-and-balance-updates/
and in particular this line:
“This type of sigil will have more strict rules applied on them, so that a player will no longer be able to gain 25 stacks and then un-equip the sigil.”

For most classes weapon swapping is a core mechanic of game play, so it wouldn’t make sense to remove bloodlust/perception/corruption stacks on a simple in-combat weapon swap. Only I was wondering how this will effect the classes without a weapon slot mechanic, namely the Engineers and Elementalists?

It seems it would be unfair to allow most classes to keep the sigil in a secondary weapon slot with their stacks still active while the Engineers and Elementalists must maintain it in their primary weapon slot only. These sigils have a major impact on the effectiveness of a player; without the sigils it unbalances these two classes.

It could be argued of course that sacrificing a secondary weapon slot sigil reduces the effectiveness of other classes also, but many players keep them just for the stacks.

Weapon swap (in-combat or not) is not the same as un-equipping a weapon with an on-kill sigil on it to your inventory and equipping a new weapon that does not have the on-kill sigil on it (which can only be done out-of-combat).
Currently, one can equip one weapon to Weapon Set 1, gain 25 stacks, un-equip that weapon and equip another weapon with a different sigil on it into Weapon Set 1 and the 25 stacks remain that were gained from the now un-equipped weapon with the on-kill sigil on it. After the 15th, if you gain stacks from an on-kill sigil on a weapon and you then un-equip that weapon to your inventory, the stacks gained will be removed.

Currently, if an ele is using a staff with an on-kill sigil to gain the 25 stacks and they then un-equip it and equip a staff with a different sigil on it, after the 15th they can just have both their regular sigil and their on-kill sigil on the same staff; no inventory swapping necessary.

True, one can argue that their second sigil slot on the staff is going to waste once the ele gains the 25 stacks . However, the second sigil slot is not going to waste, it is serving a purpose; allowing them to keep the buff of 25 stacks of a stat.

StinVec.3621:

Weapon swap (in-combat or not) is not the same as un-equipping a weapon with an on-kill sigil on it to your inventory and equipping a new weapon that does not have the on-kill sigil on it (which can only be done out-of-combat).

Of course, and my question is not about un-equipping a weapon. Obviously that should remove any stacks for any class.

The point is that Engineers and Elementalists will only have access to two ‘equipped’ sigils at any time, while every other class can equip four sigils because they have access to the additional weapon slots. I think this is perhaps an over site in the upcoming sigil change to stacking effects.

Previously engies and eles weren’t effected by this as they could still un-equip a weapon and keep the stacks.

EDIT: Actually! I’ve forgotten about water slots too. I wonder if having a trident with bloodlust would allow you to maintain the stacks if you un-equip your main weapon which also has bloodlust? I think that needs answering too.

biofrog.1568:

StinVec.3621:

Weapon swap (in-combat or not) is not the same as un-equipping a weapon with an on-kill sigil on it to your inventory and equipping a new weapon that does not have the on-kill sigil on it (which can only be done out-of-combat).

Of course, and my question is not about un-equipping a weapon. Obviously that should remove any stacks for any class.

The point is that Engineers and Elementalists will only have access to two ‘equipped’ sigils at any time, while every other class can equip four sigils because they have access to the additional weapon slots. I think this is perhaps an over site in the upcoming sigil change to stacking effects.

Previously engies and eles weren’t effected by this as they could still un-equip a weapon and keep the stacks.

EDIT: Actually! I’ve forgotten about water slots too. I wonder if having a trident with bloodlust would allow you to maintain the stacks if you un-equip your main weapon which also has bloodlust? I think that needs answering too.

Weird loophole but probably yes otherwise going into water would cause you to lose all your stacks. Then again underwater combat seems to have a very low priority.

Hmm…you make two really good points biofrog.

I hadn’t thought about the fact that without a second weapon set engis and eles are going to be unfairly effected by this, even if it’s slight. ArenaNet might not have thought that through.

Also hadn’t considered stacking up the sigils underwater, and since I assume they will also be given an extra sigil slot (being two handed weapons) this should be a lot easier. Maybe it will become routine to take a quick dip before going into battle.

EDIT: And while we’re at it what happens if you pick up an environmental weapon or any other transform I wonder. I suppose they must have written some special code differentiating between modes of equipping weapons. Otherwise we’re going to be like Flesh Golems and never go into the water.

I’ve just found an earlier post about this, tucked away in the Engie forum:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Anet-fails-to-realize-sigil-change-hurt-engis/first

All the same points were brought up, so I see others are like-minded.

Rangers have a trait in beastmaster line where the pet gets stacks everytime you kill a foe. up to 25 stacks, but you automatically lose the stats if you go underwater and also if you leave the water, even if you have the same pet equipped on land and underwater.

I guess the new stacking sigils mechanics will work just like that, if you get sigil stacks on land you will lose then if you enter the water, and you wont be able to do that trick you mentioned.

I forgot about that annoying side affect with the Ranger trait, I think the same general mechanic underlies the necros dissolving Flesh Golem too.

A lot of content in PvE is only accessible through water (areas of TA for example, most of Frostgorge). It might just put the nail in the coffin of these stacking sigils since they might not be waterproof anymore.

Something I just realized today that might actually answer the mystery of waterproof sigils. I was fighting on land and went into the water and the ‘on swap’ sigil I had on my underwater weapon proc’d (sigil of geomancy). So I guess this means it’s counted as a weapon swap and not an un-equip.

So we might actually see people putting two stacking sigils on their underwater weapon and take a little swim after entering a new map.

Well, regarding the Elementalist and the Engineer they could (finally) add a second weapon slot in the H-menu, so they can equip a second weapon set but not swap sets in combat. That’s a QoL feature they have been asking for since what, release? That would at least prevent them from losing their stacks because they wouldn’t need to unequip the set 1 in order to access set 2. So now this QoL feature would even become necessary in order to not handicap these two classes compared to those with “normal” weapon mechanics. (Apart from that it would free up some inventory space and they wouldn’t need to search for their 2nd set in the inventory while running. It’s not like I’m not already swapping my weapon constantly while out of combat, it’s just annoying as hell this way…)

The question about what happens when picking up environmental weapons/conjures/etc. or when swimming/diving is something that bugs me even more because it really sounds like something that can be overlooked very easily… I hope they have thought about that or read our concerns here before the patch goes live. keeping fingers crossed

EDIT: @Wasbunny.6531: I so hope you are right about that. That would make things a lot easier.

biofrog.1568:

[ … ]

EDIT: Actually! I’ve forgotten about water slots too. I wonder if having a trident with bloodlust would allow you to maintain the stacks if you un-equip your main weapon which also has bloodlust? I think that needs answering too.

Regarding your edit, I really hope stacks persist after entering or leaving water. I would really hate to gain my 25 stacks and then stroll through a puddle to find I lost them in that split second I got my feet wet.

I wonder how they’ve decided to have it work:

Behavior 1)

• - After gaining stacks while on land and entering water, if any equipped water weapon is detected as being outfitted with the same sigil as the one that earned the stacks on land, then the land-gained stacks remain.
  - After gaining stacks while on land and entering water, if no equipped water weapon is detected as being outfitted with the same sigil as the one that earned the stacks on land, then the land-gained stacks are removed.
  Result:
  I do not really see any issues other than being required to have an on-kill sigil on both a land and water based set for acquired stacks to not get removed when transitioning between the two. Some may not be happy about that, but it makes sense…kind of

Behavior 2)

• - Any stacks gained on land are removed upon entering water regardless of what sigils are applied to your aquatic weaponry.
  - Any stacks gained while in the water are removed upon exiting the water regardless of what sigils are applied to your land-based weaponry.
  Result:
  Many people are sure to be frequently aggravated by losing their land-gained stacks by running through a brief, yet slightly too deep, puddle and then having to regain them all over again. Same for water-gained stacks being lost upon exiting to land as is a frequent occurrence in several zones where water is abundant and combat frequently shifts between land and water (fg/sod/ml/cs/etc).

Behavior 3)

• - Any stacks gained on land persist upon entering water regardless of what sigils aquatic weaponry are outfitted with.
  - Any stacks gained while in water persist upon exiting to land regardless of what sigils the land-based weaponry are outfitted with.
  Result:
  Due to stacks persisting regardless of whether they were gained via a land-based or aquatic weapon outfitted with the sigil, I expect most players will likely just place the on-kill sigil on an aquatic weapon and put the two sigil slots on their two-handed, land-based weapon(s) to good use with other sigils.
  Due to aquatic weaponry also being two-handed weapons, players will place two of the on-kill sigils on one of their aquatic weapons to gain stacks twice as fast due to gaining two stacks for each kill. This will lead to players just dropping by a pool of water and killing 13 aquatic enemies to gain their 25 stacks before setting off to “play for real”, instead of players getting their 25 stacks on land while playing for real and then switching to their inventory weapon with a different sigil after they’ve slowly (or sometimes quickly) built up their 25 stacks.

So:
Behavior 1 - Have the sigil on both a land and water weapon if you want the gained stacks to persist across both land and water.
- Fine with me -

Behavior 2 - Be super careful and don’t accidentally run through any puddles or cross any streams or you’ll have to gain the stacks all over again. Stay clear of any content involving water if you gained your stacks on land or be forced to gain them all over again.
- I can see the aggravation already -

Behavior 3 - Forget about earning your stacks while you are out adventuring since getting the best use out of your sigil slots on your land weapons means starting every adventure with the chore of having to take take a long dip in the water to gain your stacks before you go on your way and have fun.
- I actually really like water combat and it is “playing for real” to me, most people don’t like water combat though -

I prefer Behavior 3.
Behavior 1 is…not as bad as Behavior 2.
Begs the gods: Please don’t let ANet chose Behavior 2!

Thank you, moderators, for un-merging this thread from the massive bobble-head thread it was mistakenly merged into.

really another thread about the same old story?

on kill sigill are now like they where before in spvp. unequip the weapon looses the stacks.

and before u complain about less sigills on ele and engi, start counting your weaponsets!

hooma.9642:

really another thread about the same old story?

on kill sigill are now like they where before in spvp. unequip the weapon looses the stacks.

and before u complain about less sigills on ele and engi, start counting your weaponsets!

That “count your weapon sets” argument seems to be the answer to all problems… I just counted and I still have 1 (in words “one”) weapon set as an elementalist. I have attunements though and in return I get long cooldowns, less dmg, less adaptability when it comes to switching between close and ranged combat, etc. And I’m totally OK with all of that – if I wasn’t I would not play the class. However that should be enough to compensate for our “weapon sets” as you call them. I would rather call it a mechanic though, something defining every class has. It’s the same like saying “but thieves have perma stealth, steal, no cooldowns on their skills, etc. They should not get 4 Sigils, because – well because. And while you’re at it, mesmers have clones, phantasms and stealth, they should not get them either”. Sounds stupid? Then maybe you got my point.

The points raised in this thread have nothing to do with those game mechanics (they have already been balanced and therefore should not get further nerfs through new additions to the game) but with a balancing issue that seems to have escaped your notice:

It makes a huge difference whether you can have 4 sigils up or just 2. Every class but engies and eles could have a stacking sigil on the 2nd weapon set while wielding the main weapon set. That means there can be 3 other sigils (on crit, weapon swap, etc.) – 2 on the active weapon set and one on the off hand. In case of engies and eles, there is just one slot besides the stacking sigil left…

That’s nothing one can/should just ignore, especially if the solution (like adding a second weapon set to the heroes panel and locking the set in combat) is so simple and could use mechanics already existent in the game… But we will see, if and how this has been handled in the patch today.