Guild Wars 2

@BenjaminMS:

But we’ve had not one example of someone that be posted in this thread or any other DPS meter threads. Not one. Just “it may happen” or “it happens in other games with DPS meters”.

Is it wrong that ANet’s wanting to see if a majority of us players can be mature enough to not suddenly become toxic just because we can use a DPS meter, when there are more positives to DPS meters than negative ones?

And DPS is a better indicator of skill at a particular raid than any other objective thing in the game. You can’t fake it with chat codes. You can’t ping the set you keep in your bags as opposed to the ones you’re wearing.

And personally, I don’t know about you, but if someone kicked me solely because my DPS was lacking on a DPS meter without any type of trying to help me improve my DPS, I’d be glad. I don’t want to play with players like that. And I would leave any raid that permitted such behavior.

Miku.6297:

Actually the OP clearly stated that he was a vet player, and does good dps numbers when playing. Hey simply doesn’t like the feeling of being monitored by other players when he plays. So point A is incorrect.

Point b. isn’t really an issue to me. Most people don’t actually mind others wanting to play their best, or wanting to play with like minded players. It’s when they act rudely based on that desire that people dislike.

As a mater of choices and actions, while it’s true no one is forcing anyone to use a meter or not. Someone using a meter may be forcing that meter onto others wishing to not use it.

Actually, I got the feeling he had never used a DPS meter and wouldn’t ever use one so I wonder how does he know he does good DPS? What even is good DPS? What’s his basis for comparison?

I mean, I haven’t used a DPS meter in GW2 so I don’t know what my DPS is much less what good DPS is for my main much less my alts.

I honestly should start to run a diary on all the toxic groups i encountered that used dps tools for toxicity and enforcing selfish gameplay (don’t rez ppl otherwise you lose dps/buff uptime etc.) This is getting worse and worse with every week.
Just another lovely monday today with raid leader moaning about alacrity uptime when 5 ppl are downed so i have to decide whether i run my golem rotation or actually rez ppl, the hell am i supposed to do? I am honestly getting tired of this crap and feel like quiting raiding all together. I have enough crap to deal with at work, i don’t need this kind of bs in game as well.

Cynz.9437:

I honestly should start to run a diary on all the toxic groups i encountered that used dps tools for toxicity and enforcing selfish gameplay (don’t rez ppl otherwise you lose dps/buff uptime etc.) This is getting worse and worse with every week.
Just another lovely monday today with raid leader moaning about alacrity uptime when 5 ppl are downed so i have to decide whether i run my golem rotation or actually rez ppl, the hell am i supposed to do? I am honestly getting tired of this crap and feel like quiting raiding all together. I have enough crap to deal with at work, i don’t need this kind of bs in game as well.

Tbf, it’s easy enough to know about alacrity uptime with simple observation, a dps meter isn’t required.

The bigger thing you listed was that half the raid was downed, that group has issues that can cause frustration and toxicity, not even a DPS meter could be blamed for that.

Sykper.6583:

Cynz.9437:

I honestly should start to run a diary on all the toxic groups i encountered that used dps tools for toxicity and enforcing selfish gameplay (don’t rez ppl otherwise you lose dps/buff uptime etc.) This is getting worse and worse with every week.
Just another lovely monday today with raid leader moaning about alacrity uptime when 5 ppl are downed so i have to decide whether i run my golem rotation or actually rez ppl, the hell am i supposed to do? I am honestly getting tired of this crap and feel like quiting raiding all together. I have enough crap to deal with at work, i don’t need this kind of bs in game as well.

Tbf, it’s easy enough to know about alacrity uptime with simple observation, a dps meter isn’t required.

The bigger thing you listed was that half the raid was downed, that group has issues that can cause frustration and toxicity, not even a DPS meter could be blamed for that.

Yeah but instead of telling people to stop dying, the raid leader attacks chronos in the group….

Cynz.9437:

Sykper.6583:

Cynz.9437:

I honestly should start to run a diary on all the toxic groups i encountered that used dps tools for toxicity and enforcing selfish gameplay (don’t rez ppl otherwise you lose dps/buff uptime etc.) This is getting worse and worse with every week.
Just another lovely monday today with raid leader moaning about alacrity uptime when 5 ppl are downed so i have to decide whether i run my golem rotation or actually rez ppl, the hell am i supposed to do? I am honestly getting tired of this crap and feel like quiting raiding all together. I have enough crap to deal with at work, i don’t need this kind of bs in game as well.

Tbf, it’s easy enough to know about alacrity uptime with simple observation, a dps meter isn’t required.

The bigger thing you listed was that half the raid was downed, that group has issues that can cause frustration and toxicity, not even a DPS meter could be blamed for that.

Yeah but instead of telling people to stop dying, the raid leader attacks chronos in the group….

Then the Raidleader is an kitten .

Chronos do have unique was to mitigrate incoming damage and mechanics like utilizing disortion from sigils to negate distributed magic (green circles) at Vale Guardian or players killing themselves against Gorseval.

Well of Precognition is another powerful tool but I am drifting off. Like the poster before already mentioned: If five players go down to mechanics there is little fault on the chrono(s). Basing success on the amount of received alacrity to clear (not speedclear!) any encounter says more about the leader than about the group. When the squad can deal with the mechanics properly, the boss will go down. DPS is not an issue.

(Unless you want to do Gorse No-updraft, avoid happy fun times at KC or want to avoid mechanics… then DPS as hard as you can)

Edit: I should note that we are a static group and most of us are using BDGM and two others using Arc. The Information we get out of the tools have helped us tremendously in improving our playstyle, strategies and ability to successfully clear the encounters. As such I am biased about DPS-meters as they are very helpful tools.

Cynz.9437:

I honestly should start to run a diary on all the toxic groups i encountered that used dps tools for toxicity and enforcing selfish gameplay (don’t rez ppl otherwise you lose dps/buff uptime etc.) This is getting worse and worse with every week.
Just another lovely monday today with raid leader moaning about alacrity uptime when 5 ppl are downed so i have to decide whether i run my golem rotation or actually rez ppl, the hell am i supposed to do? I am honestly getting tired of this crap and feel like quiting raiding all together. I have enough crap to deal with at work, i don’t need this kind of bs in game as well.

Or as a alternative you could record or take screen shots of said toxicty to back up your claims. You seem to have alot of claims but no real evidence.

What I find completely ridiculous is the fact that a damage meter cannot dictate whether or not you’re a good player in any respect. I mean really, just because I can produce high damage doesn’t mean I can dodge for kittene or know when to heal or support or anything else. That coupled with the fact that the game is literally nowhere near difficult enough to require anything like this to clear this content is reason enough to never need this kind of tool.

For all those that say well I want to clear the raid in record time yadda yadda, well in actuality you likely represent less that 5% of the total player base so why would anyone introduce a tool that truly isn’t needed to begin with and serves only to add negative and toxic behavior in the first place a mystery to me. There is no valid reason to have one it certainly cannot fully define a players value nor can it ever replace the experience of multiple runs through content. In the end even if you do clear a raid in record time who the hell cares in the grand scheme of things and did it really justify degrading other players or spouting vitriol, if it does you should take a good long look at yourself and re-evaluate your priorities in life. Anyway it’s always been a tool that really has more downsides attached to it then positives and I personally could never justify using one and don’t care to ever play with anyone who thinks it is that critical to playing a game.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

What I find completely ridiculous is the fact that a damage meter cannot dictate whether or not you’re a good player in any respect. I mean really, just because I can produce high damage doesn’t mean I can dodge for kittene or know when to heal or support or anything else. That coupled with the fact that the game is literally nowhere near difficult enough to require anything like this to clear this content is reason enough to never need this kind of tool.

For all those that say well I want to clear the raid in record time yadda yadda, well in actuality you likely represent less that 5% of the total player base so why would anyone introduce a tool that truly isn’t needed to begin with and serves only to add negative and toxic behavior in the first place a mystery to me. There is no valid reason to have one it certainly cannot fully define a players value nor can it ever replace the experience of multiple runs through content. In the end even if you do clear a raid in record time who the hell cares in the grand scheme of things and did it really justify degrading other players or spouting vitriol, if it does you should take a good long look at yourself and re-evaluate your priorities in life. Anyway it’s always been a tool that really has more downsides attached to it then positives and I personally could never justify using one and don’t care to ever play with anyone who thinks it is that critical to playing a game.

Agreed, especially with bolded section, but slight dispute with the italicized part. The meters used, while called “DPS” meters, are usually far more robust and can track buff uptime, damage taken, healing done/received. They do track a reasonably impressive amount of data, so in that, they get a nod of respect.

So, there will be evidence when you don’t dodge enough or dip in support by missing some synergy in your rotation. The problem comes when data is used for data’s sake, or for the wrong reasons. Armchair commanders or shoddy raid leaders are going to use this data improperly, and it’s not like an MBA is necessary to use them. :\

While I’m dispelling misconceptions, “it’s the people, not the tool,” is only partially correct. There is an effect of People and an effect of Tool, but within that variance is the interaction effect of [People x Tool]. If an actual study were done, I’m pretty sure this could be statistically significant. In simpler terms, we would see toxic behavior increase in the presence of DPS meters. It’s a solid hypothesis, but I’m not going to design and implement a controlled study with full HSRB, because that’s too much work just to tell people to stop being kittens to each other.

Rauderi.8706:

Vlad Morbius.1759:

What I find completely ridiculous is the fact that a damage meter cannot dictate whether or not you’re a good player in any respect. I mean really, just because I can produce high damage doesn’t mean I can dodge for kittene or know when to heal or support or anything else. That coupled with the fact that the game is literally nowhere near difficult enough to require anything like this to clear this content is reason enough to never need this kind of tool.

For all those that say well I want to clear the raid in record time yadda yadda, well in actuality you likely represent less that 5% of the total player base so why would anyone introduce a tool that truly isn’t needed to begin with and serves only to add negative and toxic behavior in the first place a mystery to me. There is no valid reason to have one it certainly cannot fully define a players value nor can it ever replace the experience of multiple runs through content. In the end even if you do clear a raid in record time who the hell cares in the grand scheme of things and did it really justify degrading other players or spouting vitriol, if it does you should take a good long look at yourself and re-evaluate your priorities in life. Anyway it’s always been a tool that really has more downsides attached to it then positives and I personally could never justify using one and don’t care to ever play with anyone who thinks it is that critical to playing a game.

Agreed, especially with bolded section, but slight dispute with the italicized part. The meters used, while called “DPS” meters, are usually far more robust and can track buff uptime, damage taken, healing done/received. They do track a reasonably impressive amount of data, so in that, they get a nod of respect.

So, there will be evidence when you don’t dodge enough or dip in support by missing some synergy in your rotation. The problem comes when data is used for data’s sake, or for the wrong reasons. Armchair commanders or shoddy raid leaders are going to use this data improperly, and it’s not like an MBA is necessary to use them. :\

While I’m dispelling misconceptions, “it’s the people, not the tool,” is only partially correct. There is an effect of People and an effect of Tool, but within that variance is the interaction effect of [People x Tool]. If an actual study were done, I’m pretty sure this could be statistically significant. In simpler terms, we would see toxic behavior increase in the presence of DPS meters. It’s a solid hypothesis, but I’m not going to design and implement a controlled study with full HSRB, because that’s too much work just to tell people to stop being kittens to each other.

I wonder if maybe calling it something like ‘Combat Metrics’ instead of a DPS meter would help to change people’s impressions? Sometimes it just takes a new way of looking at things.

Rauderi.8706:

… The meters used, while called “DPS” meters, are usually far more robust and can track buff uptime, damage taken, healing done/received. They do track a reasonably impressive amount of data, so in that, they get a nod of respect.
…

Which, especially in the games context, is very important to note. Great DPS in Guild Wars 2 is only possible with great buff coverage. This doesn’t mean, that other games don’t utilize buffs or proper buff appliance but in Guild Wars, the difference between no buffs and “realistic” buffs makes a huge difference. A (bad) tempest will surpass a great one (on certain weapons, looking at you scepter) just because buffs are such a big part of a classes possible damage output.

Moonyeti.3296:

I wonder if maybe calling it something like ‘Combat Metrics’ instead of a DPS meter would help to change people’s impressions? Sometimes it just takes a new way of looking at things.

Maybe?

I’m not against combat metrics for the right purpose, success-based outcomes. Efficiency in performance is limited to those who run progression (might as well just say beta testers, since the strats are known from Day 1) and record running, both of which don’t typically apply to PUGs. Using combat metrics to improve personal performance is absolutely okay.

Opposite that is flailing around on anyone and everyone else while not understanding the nature and purpose of data. Low “relative” DPS might very well be still above the “absolute” needed for an encounter. There’s just this sense that most raiders aren’t asking the right questions, even with the data in front of them.
Did the group win? Yay, that’s all fine.
Did they not? Where was the breakdown? Were mechanics failed? Did too many players mess up a defense? Was healing sparse? Assigning blame to DPS is the last thing that should happen, yet it’s often the first.

So, in the end it kinda boils down to stuff we’ve said in the past, combat trackers or not:
1. If you’re elite/pro/toxic, cool your jets. Unless you’re pushing to be that top 1% of 1% of the 1%, your tryhard isn’t necessary.
2. If you’re “casual”, be open to advice and remember that your group is made up of other people who want to succeed. Your raid build will probably be different than your open world roaming build. Commit to be better.
3. Don’t seek to be in groups you don’t fit with. Meta/Meter runs not for you? Hit LFG with the right tags and you’ll get a group eventually. Hopping into a non-meta group with your DPS tracker? You’re gonna have a bad time, so keep the rabies to yourself.

DPS meters are a valuable tool that can provide information necessary to test builds and measure performance in top end content.

At the top end of the player skill base, they are used for that purpose.

The problem is that the majority of players are not top end skill players and will not get that experience. Instead, the majority of players will experience a wannabe top end player who is using the DPS meter results as an excuse to mistreat them.

The extreme minority of players that are using the tool properly will have an entirely different experience (and thus opinion) than the majority of players who will experience the tool being misused to exclude them.

That is the essence of the problem with DPS meters.

Dragon Masher.5749:

Cynz.9437:

I honestly should start to run a diary on all the toxic groups i encountered that used dps tools for toxicity and enforcing selfish gameplay (don’t rez ppl otherwise you lose dps/buff uptime etc.) This is getting worse and worse with every week.
Just another lovely monday today with raid leader moaning about alacrity uptime when 5 ppl are downed so i have to decide whether i run my golem rotation or actually rez ppl, the hell am i supposed to do? I am honestly getting tired of this crap and feel like quiting raiding all together. I have enough crap to deal with at work, i don’t need this kind of bs in game as well.

Or as a alternative you could record or take screen shots of said toxicty to back up your claims. You seem to have alot of claims but no real evidence.

I can’t screenshot what is said on TS…. sure i can record the conversations but posting them here would send me on very long vacation.

I always hoped, that dps meters wouldn’t find a way into gw2.
When anet allowed them, I haven’t been too happy about it.

I rarely pug, but when BotP was released I joined some groups for training.
3 of them were talking about dps meters, but instead of being toxic, they joked about dps numbers or just were curious about the results.

I got curious as well especially as I often play tempest.
Another tempest in my guild group also uses BGDM and so we found out that we are equally good or bad.

Other guildies started to use it too:
-we don’t use it to flame
-one found out, that seaweed salad is not the best food for him (as he moves to less)
-our chronos know if they are doing well
-our tempests (me included) are sad to beeing beaten by a ranger

So the “toxic dps tool” just helps us to improve.

I don’t deny that a dps meter also bears some risks (focusing too much on dps instead of the mechanics or using it as an excuse to be toxic), but wisely used it can help a lot to improve the group as a whole.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

What I find completely ridiculous is the fact that a damage meter cannot dictate whether or not you’re a good player in any respect. I mean really, just because I can produce high damage doesn’t mean I can dodge for kittene or know when to heal or support or anything else. That coupled with the fact that the game is literally nowhere near difficult enough to require anything like this to clear this content is reason enough to never need this kind of tool.

For all those that say well I want to clear the raid in record time yadda yadda, well in actuality you likely represent less that 5% of the total player base so why would anyone introduce a tool that truly isn’t needed to begin with and serves only to add negative and toxic behavior in the first place a mystery to me. There is no valid reason to have one it certainly cannot fully define a players value nor can it ever replace the experience of multiple runs through content. In the end even if you do clear a raid in record time who the hell cares in the grand scheme of things and did it really justify degrading other players or spouting vitriol, if it does you should take a good long look at yourself and re-evaluate your priorities in life. Anyway it’s always been a tool that really has more downsides attached to it then positives and I personally could never justify using one and don’t care to ever play with anyone who thinks it is that critical to playing a game.

I think you’ve conflated a variety of different concepts to create some sort of mishmash impression that isn’t realistic.

• Nothing “dictates” whether you are a good player. People looking to simplify the process of leading use and misuse tools to find players they think will lead to success.
• Higher DPS is extremely-well correlated with good game-play in GW2, because you can’t achieve it without being able to actively avoid damage while using skills efficiently.
• Relatively few people care about finishing a raid or fractals in “record time”; they care about finishing in a “reasonable” amount of time … something that is affected by DPS, attention to mechanics, number of downs/dead, and number of wipes.
• “Just a game” isn’t a useful phrase, because different people play differently. Some get genuine pleasure out of learning detailed rotations and some can’t be bothered.

In the end, it boils down to toxic players using whatever tools they have on hand to be toxic, whether it’s DPS meters or LI or gear pings. Blocking a DPS meter will just give them a different excuse to be a jerk

Rhiannon.1726:

I always hoped, that dps meters wouldn’t find a way into gw2.
When anet allowed them, I haven’t been too happy about it.

I rarely pug, but when BotP was released I joined some groups for training.
3 of them were talking about dps meters, but instead of being toxic, they joked about dps numbers or just were curious about the results.

I got curious as well especially as I often play tempest.
Another tempest in my guild group also uses BGDM and so we found out that we are equally good or bad.

Other guildies started to use it too:
-we don’t use it to flame
-one found out, that seaweed salad is not the best food for him (as he moves to less)
-our chronos know if they are doing well
-our tempests (me included) are sad to beeing beaten by a ranger

So the “toxic dps tool” just helps us to improve.

I don’t deny that a dps meter also bears some risks (focusing too much on dps instead of the mechanics or using it as an excuse to be toxic), but wisely used it can help a lot to improve the group as a whole.

I bet its used way more for improvement than toxicity.
The people that blame toxic behavior on DPS Meter would probably still getting shout/kicked without dps meter for many other reasons.
Like: Dont pinging gear, or when pinging having a bad set.
Missing mechanics.
Dont having LI or Kill proff.
Obvious doing the wrong rotation.
I never saw someone being toxic because of DPS meter. But i have for all those reasons so DPS meter actually decrease toxic not increase as people wouldnt having tools to see whats wrong but still would blame something and many times the wrong thing as they cant see whats actually wrong.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Rhiannon.1726:

I always hoped, that dps meters wouldn’t find a way into gw2.
When anet allowed them, I haven’t been too happy about it.

I rarely pug, but when BotP was released I joined some groups for training.
3 of them were talking about dps meters, but instead of being toxic, they joked about dps numbers or just were curious about the results.

I got curious as well especially as I often play tempest.
Another tempest in my guild group also uses BGDM and so we found out that we are equally good or bad.

Other guildies started to use it too:
-we don’t use it to flame
-one found out, that seaweed salad is not the best food for him (as he moves to less)
-our chronos know if they are doing well
-our tempests (me included) are sad to beeing beaten by a ranger

So the “toxic dps tool” just helps us to improve.

I don’t deny that a dps meter also bears some risks (focusing too much on dps instead of the mechanics or using it as an excuse to be toxic), but wisely used it can help a lot to improve the group as a whole.

I bet its used way more for improvement than toxicity.
The people that blame toxic behavior on DPS Meter would probably still getting shout/kicked without dps meter for many other reasons.
Like: Dont pinging gear, or when pinging having a bad set.
Missing mechanics.
Dont having LI or Kill proff.
Obvious doing the wrong rotation.
I never saw someone being toxic because of DPS meter. But i have for all those reasons so DPS meter actually decrease toxic not increase as people wouldnt having tools to see whats wrong but still would blame something and many times the wrong thing as they cant see whats actually wrong.

I’m with this guy, you are right. The DPS meters aren’t there because people want to be kittens and ruin everyone’s day; they’re there because people don’t want to waste their time wiping on the boss because some people: don’t know how to play their class, don’t know the mechanics, have garbage gear (like the rabid set that’s given to free 80’s with toughness on every piece) or just don’t care at all. Not everyone has the time to pull a problem member aside and work with them to fix it, and what is wrong with that? If the raid leader is using a DPS meter to monitor the squad member’s dps then they’re doing it because they want to clear this boss and get their rewards, not because they their an kitten who wants to ruin someone’s night. Its their raid, they have the right to decide who’s in and who isn’t.

I know from years of experience how FRUSTRATING it is to run a raid and have your time wasted by players who don’t care or have no clue how to play; not everyone wants to just jump on these people and fix their mistakes for them. Its great that there are folks who do training runs and help new members but there’s another side too just like with everything else and there’s nothing wrong with that.

You can always start your own raid and not use DPS meters. No one else can do anything about it aside from leaving, which you can choose to do too when you join a raid that’s using DPS meters.

Cynz.9437:

I hope you are aware that reports do nothing in this game? I would have to make an actual ticket if i want support at least read the name of the player.

I agree with the bulk of your post. However, I want to point out that ANet DOES monitor the in-game bug reports. I’ve reported bugs that were followed within minutes by a system update.

Once, I reported a second, related bug after upgrading to the patch they released, and whoever did the update responded with a response quoting my own words (as in, “in quotes”). So, I know someone was listening, and in fact issued two patches within a few minutes as direct responses to my bug reports.

Just as another perspective, let’s assume that the toxic groups aren’t likely to ever fall off ever, that’s pretty natural when you have so many players of different personalities trying to mesh in this game.

Regardless of whether DPS meters were involved, these groups would find any excuse, LIs, Achievement points, or simple guesswork to kick good and bad players from their squads. A DPS meter is just another measure that they can try to determine the fault in their squad, and if they were not going to be using a DPS meter they would still inappropriately kick players out of their groups.

Is that a fair assessment of a disadvantage of the DPS meter? Giving these toxic groups just another measure to try to figure out why their group is failing? Because even without a meter, they would aimlessly kick otherwise, there’s no way they wouldn’t just keep going.

That all being said, what does a DPS meter do that can acts as a positive for it? Well, interested players and squads can use it as a tool to teach and improve. It has a great use towards making raid groups more effective, and somewhat friendly competitive guilds might race on the DPS against a boss they regularly fight weekly. The DPS meter acts as another layer towards improving an aspect of End-Game PvE.

Both the flat positive and negatives aside above, we have a bit of gray area that needs to be brought up. I am more than certain that there are raid groups using this tool constructively, but have a member, regardless of being an old friend or a stranger, who just isn’t pulling the DPS they need to succeed, and absolutely refuses to improve.

This was able to be figured out from the DPS meter showing the DPS, and this person just can’t, or refuses to improve their damage and it is impacting the group’s performance. Does the raid group become toxic if they decide to kick this player from the group? I have my own thoughts about this but I want to hear from you guys first.

There’s a lot of other variations and variables involved in this, but I am of the standpoint that for Guild Wars 2, a DPS meter is more productive than destructive. Compared to any other Raiding MMO out there right now, I am seeing more proactive training groups and people just willing to take absolute strangers everyday than anywhere else. That might be because of how Raids are handled, they aren’t really the big focus of the game, but they are A focus that anyone can participate in if they want to spend the time to do so.

Miku.6297:

SkyShroud.2865:

Wrong. Just because he is a veteran doesn’t necessary means he will and always will be doing a high DPS. All players can choose to be lazy and not do the optimal rotations. He simply hates to feel that pressure or stress to perform optimal rotations to provide that high DPS. Likewise, if he doesn’t do it, he get kicked.

It’s not wrong I am taking the OP at his word, using HIS statement. His words are “do get good dps numbers for the most part”. You can infer and claim that the OP isn’t being truthful, but that’s pushing your own opinion, and has nothing to do with fact. He goes on to say “i just disagree with this direction the game is takeing coz i belive most players missuse dps meters”. Does that say he feels pressured or stressed to perform optimal rotations or he will be kicked? No it simply says he believes many may miss use a DPS meter, and he dislikes the direction the game would be moving in.

SkyShroud.2865:

Again wrong. no one is forcing anyone to use that meter. It is your choice to use it and if the party or squad states that you must use it, it is again your choice to do so inorder to join them. No one is forced and by forced I mean it by life threatening ways or brute force.

Again wrong, I didn’t say anyone was forcing another player to use the meter… I was saying that if you are using a meter that does not require an opt in, you are essentially monitoring others without their consent.

You are correct no one is forced to or not to use a DPS meter. You are incorrect in assuming that just because a player chooses not to use one, that player can avoid having one used on him. (at least if using a non-opt in meter)

Pifil.5193:

Actually, I got the feeling he had never used a DPS meter and wouldn’t ever use one so I wonder how does he know he does good DPS? What even is good DPS? What’s his basis for comparison?

I mean, I haven’t used a DPS meter in GW2 so I don’t know what my DPS is much less what good DPS is for my main much less my alts.

Haha yep you are 100% correct, he has no basis for comparison. Really all we can do is go off the information that is present.

As some one who also hasnt used and has very little desire to use a DPS meter (unless someone points out a good one that shows buff/heal/etc time) I don’t know alot about it either. I do however understand the OP’s feelings of not enjoying big brother DPS meter keeping all the groups safe from low dps. xD

Isn’t that contradicting in nature? You said you take OP words at face value then on the hand, agreed that he has no basis for that. Then you claim it as fact when he has no basis, ermm…..

Regardless, it is much convincing cause to call out to block dps meter using discrimination against newbies as reasoning than using stress and pressure as reasoning.

Also, dps meters that monitor other players’ dps without consent should be against the TOS as to do so, they have to access data that are not make visible to players. This is the same thing as accessing and displaying data of other players’ gears and traits. Arcdps should be violating the tos as “simulated dps” is done through data not normally displayed to players.

Meters that check DPS of players that aren’t in squad/party are against TOS. Joining a squad or party implies giving consent:

http://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/squadparty.png

Cynz.9437:

I honestly should start to run a diary on all the toxic groups i encountered that used dps tools for toxicity and enforcing selfish gameplay

Pretty sure you already do that with your posts here.

fishball.7204:

Meters that check DPS of players that aren’t in squad/party are against TOS. Joining a squad or party implies giving consent:

http://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/squadparty.png

Huh, I wasn’t aware it went to that degree for the consent.

Just out of curiosity is that from the reddit thread about DPS Meters some time ago?

BenjaminMS.6710:

If someone wants a personal DPS meter for themselves to have a look at their own output. Go ahead.

But if it gets used to judge others? kitten. OFF. I’ve seen too much toxic & elitist behaviour in other MMOs (from Star Trek Online, to Rift, to Neverwinter) when combat meters on group level got introduced. Those who say a group-based DPS meter isn’t a bad idea in itself are intentionally ignorant. ANet should build an own DPS meter which can standard measure your own DPS and only if others allow their DPS to be measured, also track others, allow people to buy it in the cash shop to cover the development costs and forbid any of the others. DPS meters are often too toxic in general widespread usage for uncontrolled use.

Only reason people doesn’t want to be monitored is that they know they wont pull their own weight.
I know the dps checks in raids are extremly easy to reach as every single boss has been 5 manned or less at this point. However, in pug enviorments people generally die to mechanics. Not enrage. This is why you want to kill the boss as quickly as possible. This does not work if you’re running a carrion staff ele.

So just grab a proper build and practice rotations for a bit and you shouldn’t mind people monitoring your dps.

SkyShroud.2865:

Isn’t that contradicting in nature? You said you take OP words at face value then on the hand, agreed that he has no basis for that. Then you claim it as fact when he has no basis, ermm…..

Regardless, it is much convincing cause to call out to block dps meter using discrimination against newbies as reasoning than using stress and pressure as reasoning.

Also, dps meters that monitor other players’ dps without consent should be against the TOS as to do so, they have to access data that are not make visible to players. This is the same thing as accessing and displaying data of other players’ gears and traits. Arcdps should be violating the tos as “simulated dps” is done through data not normally displayed to players.

It’s not contradicting at all, I said to take the OPs words at face value regaurdess of basis. The only base line information you can use in this type of situation is what the OP said. It is a fact the OP stated that, it’s also a fact that you have no proof it is or isn’t true. However discussing if the OP is lying or not really doesn’t prove anything; or address the topic.

To clarify it’s not contradicting to say to take him at face value, and then say he has no basis for it. What basis do you have other then assumption that hes lieing? What good what that do the discussion about this topic.

He didn’t use pressure, he simply said he did not like the way the game was going, or being monitored by other players.

If that type of DPS meter (the ones that monitor others without consent) are against the rules still. Then the OP has a point in not wanting to be monitored.

I have to wonder how a judge would rule if you argued this was an invasion of privacy either under the Data rights protection act or the telecomunications act 2013 or even human rights act article 8 i.e my right to privacy in my conumications
not that im planing legal action but i do feel these dps meters skirt close to the edge in a grey area

thefinnster.6904:

I have to wonder how a judge would rule if you argued this was an invasion of privacy either under the Data rights protection act or the telecomunications act 2013 or even human rights act article 8 i.e my right to privacy in my conumications
not that im planing legal action but i do feel these dps meters skirt close to the edge in a grey area

Of course because someone knowing your virtual character data is invasion of privacy.
If someone start following your char in tyria you will call the cops because he is a stalker ?
Come one calling invasion of privacy because of dps meter is beyond ridiculous.
Next time you will want to arrest someone for PKing or for KSing

thefinnster.6904:

I have to wonder how a judge would rule if you argued this was an invasion of privacy either under the Data rights protection act or the telecomunications act 2013 or even human rights act article 8 i.e my right to privacy in my conumications
not that im planing legal action but i do feel these dps meters skirt close to the edge in a grey area

I suppose that would depend on who owns the numbers that the dps meters read. My best guess would be that Anet owns the numbers, therefore, it would be their information to release or not.

besides, this whole topic is about “weeh, they can see my dps” in a situation where you need to do DPS. If you join a group as a DPS role, then you should be providing the DPS you said you would provide. IF THEN you provide the DPS that you SAID you would provide, then the tool can do no harm. If the tool shows you did less DPS than you SAID you would do, then you are in the wrong for joining the party as a DPS role and not doing the DPS that you said you would deliver.
So the only thing the tool does is snitch if you lie to your teammates.

If you are unable to do the DPS the team requires of you, maybe you should take a different role, like PS, or Chrono, or Druid. Then you won’t get kicked for having a low DPS because DPS won’t be your role.

and then there’s also the matter where if you join a squad, you consent to the sharing of information that’s relevant for the squad to function. Maybe multiplayer games aren’t your thing if you want as little communication between you and team-members as possible

Furthermore there is nothing “private” being observed by arcdps. It sees the skills you use which is public. It sees how much damage each attack hits the boss for, also public. It tracks fight time. Also. Public. From those three things it calculates your dps. Which part scares you?

NikeEU.7690:

Furthermore there is nothing “private” being observed by arcdps. It sees the skills you use which is public. It sees how much damage each attack hits the boss for, also public. It tracks fight time. Also. Public. From those three things it calculates your dps. Which part scares you?

I’ve never used ARCdps, does it track only your squad/group or everyone around you?

thefinnster.6904:

I have to wonder how a judge would rule if you argued this was an invasion of privacy either under the Data rights protection act or the telecomunications act 2013 or even human rights act article 8 i.e my right to privacy in my conumications
not that im planing legal action but i do feel these dps meters skirt close to the edge in a grey area

The data belongs to ANet, and they have now given permission openly. So, it’s not invasion of privacy.

Silly arguments about legality and debates about whether or not meters belong in the game at all aside -

If a group or leader makes it clear they are using a tool that evaluates the group and you individually up front, then it is on the player to decide if they want to join that group.

If a leader or any other member uses a tool like this and chooses not to tell you about it until they want to criticize, then they are a toxic troll and you should leave the group and make a note not to run with them in the future. Enough people do this in Pugs and the people doing this will quickly find themselves with no one to play with.

Basically, as long as people are open about the use of these tools up front, I dont see an issue.

Maybe some industrious player could come up with a tool that told players when other players were using these tools. That would be a nice fix, imo.

or, possibly, came up with a tool that somehow blocked or misrepresented your personal data in such a way as to invalidate the use of such tools directed at you (but not other players) – as a way to combat the trolls using the tool without saying anything.

Just assume every group you join is using a dps meter unless you are told otherwise. The chance is that at least one person is so you should assume that and act accordingly.

thefinnster.6904:

I have to wonder how a judge would rule if you argued this was an invasion of privacy either under the Data rights protection act or the telecomunications act 2013 or even human rights act article 8 i.e my right to privacy in my conumications
not that im planing legal action but i do feel these dps meters skirt close to the edge in a grey area

I suspect you are just trying to raise the spectre of legal authority to give your argument merit. If not, then allow me to present this – you opted in to Anet’s game when you created an account. You are effectively renting space on their server to play their game. It is their data, not yours, and this lets them have a great deal of authority with what they do with this data.

But really, I think you just argued yourself into a corner without thinking first.

You know, I always thought the gripes on both sides, both “Omg I am only getting dps nubs in my party kick kick” and “Omg I kept getting kicked by mean pplz” seem to share the same thing and that is that they are putting their fates in the hands of random people. Trusting random people to treat you well is a complete gamble.

The solution is of course, to get friends, or find a group that you will have agreed to expect a certain atmosphere and performance. And especially in content where performance actually matters, this seems pretty critical. Toxic people are toxic no matter what and short of banning them from abusive behavior, there is little that can be done.

Then again, it’s also not surprising when neither group has many friends to begin with… I wonder why!

Stop playing the victim and only associate with people worth associating with. Also lol@ the legality part. Excuse me, but when you join group oriented content like that, it’s no longer about yourself since what you do does directly affect other people. You don’t have a right to the privacy of that, as you don’t even own anything involving the game itself. Arenanet does.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

You acknowledge, and further agree, that You have no IP right related to any Service, Content, Game, or any combination of the foregoing or parts thereof except the limited license provided in Section 2 above.

ArchonWing.9480:

You know, I always thought the gripes on both sides, both “Omg I am only getting dps nubs in my party kick kick” and “Omg I kept getting kicked by mean pplz” seem to share the same thing and that is that they are putting their fates in the hands of random people. Trusting random people to treat you well is a complete gamble.

The solution is of course, to get friends, or find a group that you will have agreed to expect a certain atmosphere and performance. And especially in content where performance actually matters, this seems pretty critical. Toxic people are toxic no matter what and short of banning them from abusive behavior, there is little that can be done.

This. These arguments are all about Pugging. Both those who kick and those who think they ought not be kicked are after their personal convenience. The main difference is that those organizing the run made the small amount of effort to establish requirements and set up the LFG, whereas those who don’t meet them made no effort at all to set up a group with their requirements.

My advice is the same as Archon’s. Go find a guild that will meet your expectations. If that’s too much, form your own LFG. If that’s too much, well, you are not entitled to an effortless instanced content run. GW2 has lots of open world endgame content where no one cares what your build is or whether your DPS is sub-par.

Miku.6297:

SkyShroud.2865:

Isn’t that contradicting in nature? You said you take OP words at face value then on the hand, agreed that he has no basis for that. Then you claim it as fact when he has no basis, ermm…..

Regardless, it is much convincing cause to call out to block dps meter using discrimination against newbies as reasoning than using stress and pressure as reasoning.

Also, dps meters that monitor other players’ dps without consent should be against the TOS as to do so, they have to access data that are not make visible to players. This is the same thing as accessing and displaying data of other players’ gears and traits. Arcdps should be violating the tos as “simulated dps” is done through data not normally displayed to players.

It’s not contradicting at all, I said to take the OPs words at face value regaurdess of basis. The only base line information you can use in this type of situation is what the OP said. It is a fact the OP stated that, it’s also a fact that you have no proof it is or isn’t true. However discussing if the OP is lying or not really doesn’t prove anything; or address the topic.

To clarify it’s not contradicting to say to take him at face value, and then say he has no basis for it. What basis do you have other then assumption that hes lieing? What good what that do the discussion about this topic.

He didn’t use pressure, he simply said he did not like the way the game was going, or being monitored by other players.

If that type of DPS meter (the ones that monitor others without consent) are against the rules still. Then the OP has a point in not wanting to be monitored.

Here’s the thing, I can argue with you about contradiction but there is no need for me to do so because it is. Moving on, at first he said is privacy then he say is elitist so which is which? Both are not the same, both are different. His cause is unclear and questionable. Regardless, since he mentioned elitist, that suggest something else for his reason for blocking dps meter, is it really privacy or simply because of a incident that his dps got criticized. Anyway, since his cause is unclear, it is pretty moot since that point onwards.

Moving on to the moot points. If the cause is privacy then legitimacy of the dps meter is in question. If the cause is elitist, then is a matter of choice and actions. Both of which I have already mentioned.

@ Others on DPS Meter
MMORPG is designed in a way such that other players’ data like gears and traits are actually available in the client, however, are those data actually made available to everyone? Nope, those data are there for computation reasons. For arcdps case, it apparently check every hit towards the target but not so possible for conditions since it is done in consolidated tick thus is called simulated. Regardless, this way of obtaining the data is not actually visually possible thus in a way it is violating TOS. Likewise, meter showing the numerical health values of any targets should also be against TOS simply because there is no provided means to get those. DPS meter on the very basis should only consolidate and summarize data available through game UI.

fishball.7204:

Meters that check DPS of players that aren’t in squad/party are against TOS. Joining a squad or party implies giving consent:

http://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/squadparty.png

I’m not sure I’m comfortable with this position actually. Like, from a philosophical standpoint.

DPS meters and raiding, two of the three things that make WoW the toxic game that it is. The third being Trade chat. Do we really need those things in THIS game?

SkyShroud.2865:

Here’s the thing, I can argue with you about contradiction but there is no need for me to do so because it is. Moving on, at first he said is privacy then he say is elitist so which is which? Both are not the same, both are different. His cause is unclear and questionable. Regardless, since he mentioned elitist, that suggest something else for his reason for blocking dps meter, is it really privacy or simply because of a incident that his dps got criticized. Anyway, since his cause is unclear, it is pretty moot since that point onwards.

Heres the thing, I can argue with you about it not being a contradiction but there is no need for me to do so because it is not. (This is the last time I will bother responding to your posts on this matter)

Actually he says it’s for his privacy. Second he says he believes it will be miss-used and mostly disagrees with the direction the game is taking on this mater. In a later post he mentions some of his friends being kicked for DPS etc, and says the tool is being used in an elitist manner. How ever the two circumstances are NOT mutually exclusive, both can exist and both can be true.

Saying the point is moot because you don’t believe the posters post is moot… That’s the only information you have to go on, if you don’t believe him why even bother posting on the subject? An “I don’t believe the OP post” could be made in neerly every case when reviewing something like this and it really adds nothing to the discussion

SkyShroud.2865:

Moving on to the moot points. If the cause is privacy then legitimacy of the dps meter is in question. If the cause is elitist, then is a matter of choice and actions. Both of which I have already mentioned.

What if the cause is he simply doesn’t want to be monitored? Any player can choose to use a DPS tool, and if they are in his group or using one that reads all players in the area, what choice does he have to avoid it?

As far as the legal thing goes… As others have said you give your consent to be monitored and have damage/data tracked when you click the I accept and log in. The data is A-nets if they choose to allow DPS meter users to view it, that is their choice.

Miku.6297:

SkyShroud.2865:

Here’s the thing, I can argue with you about contradiction but there is no need for me to do so because it is. Moving on, at first he said is privacy then he say is elitist so which is which? Both are not the same, both are different. His cause is unclear and questionable. Regardless, since he mentioned elitist, that suggest something else for his reason for blocking dps meter, is it really privacy or simply because of a incident that his dps got criticized. Anyway, since his cause is unclear, it is pretty moot since that point onwards.

Heres the thing, I can argue with you about it not being a contradiction but there is no need for me to do so because it is not. (This is the last time I will bother responding to your posts on this matter)

Actually he says it’s for his privacy. Second he says he believes it will be miss-used and mostly disagrees with the direction the game is taking on this mater. In a later post he mentions some of his friends being kicked for DPS etc, and says the tool is being used in an elitist manner. How ever the two circumstances are NOT mutually exclusive, both can exist and both can be true.

Saying the point is moot because you don’t believe the posters post is moot… That’s the only information you have to go on, if you don’t believe him why even bother posting on the subject? An “I don’t believe the OP post” could be made in neerly every case when reviewing something like this and it really adds nothing to the discussion

The fact that he mentioned “other players” and you claim is “friends” already shown that you are not interpreting it as face values as you claim to be.

SkyShroud.2865:

Moving on to the moot points. If the cause is privacy then legitimacy of the dps meter is in question. If the cause is elitist, then is a matter of choice and actions. Both of which I have already mentioned.

Miku.6297:

What if the cause is he simply doesn’t want to be monitored? Any player can choose to use a DPS tool, and if they are in his group or using one that reads all players in the area, what choice does he have to avoid it?

As far as the legal thing goes… As others have said you give your consent to be monitored and have damage/data tracked when you click the I accept and log in. The data is A-nets if they choose to allow DPS meter users to view it, that is their choice.

Monitoring is related to privacy, I am not sure what you are referring to at this point onwards.

Shauma.5470:

DPS meters and raiding, two of the three things that make WoW the toxic game that it is. The third being Trade chat. Do we really need those things in THIS game?

WoW’s Design in general made it toxic. Remember WoW had mob-tagging, resource tagging, etc. Many of the design choices WoW had, GW2 went in a completely different direction. Thus it goes without saying that the way Arenanet is handling both raiding and DPS meters at this second has this in mind, Raiding in GW2 isn’t literally the only end-game, it rewards you for attempts, accessibility is high, etc. Arenanet’s official stance on DPS meters is about as far as they will go, they won’t allow gearchecking (which I am ok with) and you can only give consent to having your DPS measured if you join a group. DPS meters serve no purpose in any other content in GW2, which is the vast majority of the game.

Protection of private information and data on the internet is a much bigger and more important topic than something as silly as this.
We aren’t talking about names, adresses, creditcard information, IPs, clocked hours or anything like that here. We aren’t even talking about private messages, the chat or anything that might give others an indication on our playing hours.
What we are actually wondering about is wether information on tiny differences on how well we performed in the “DPS department” at any given time is something ArenaNet should keep private from the other players. Players who you choose to play with by joining their group or squad, the players who could already judge you on how well you are doing by simply watching you perform.

We can talk about the bigger picture or ArenaNet’s stance on data security. However, like I already said, that is a much more important topic than a discussion about DPS meters. If people were actually serious about this then they should also complain about displaying their location on the friend list (players they choose to add themselves just like the squad) or the guild display. They should complain about displaying their amount of AP, account name, class preferences, crafting preferences, etc. More comes to mind, but I’ll leave it at that.

This seems to be another attempt, apologies for sounding a bit mean, to grasp for straws again to find any reason to ban something some players do dislike on a personal level.

OniGiri.9461 BDGM sounds like the kinda dps meter i can get behind its not intrusive and by downloading it consent is esentialy given
ARC DPS seems to be the main dps meter out there that is reading info from Anets servers based on what previous users have posted just what info im unsure on or if it considerd public data or private
theres nothing wrong with wanting to question this and better understand it coz only a fool blindly follows

no doubt like other users have stated we have given consent for Anet to use that info via the ToS we agreed to as i said before im not niave enough to think Anet has not thugroughly looked in to this beforehand and coverd there ases.

reguardless of the legality of it all it will not change how me and certain other players feel on the matter that it is an invasion of privacy and you can tell us its not all you like we will still feel the same way. id just like to see some consideration given to those of us who feel this way and a choice not to share that information seems like the best way to establish some sort of middle ground
to me giveing arc dps the green light is like seting up a sort of survailance culture in the game and its a fact that being spied on makes you feel uncomfortable if your feeling uncomfortable it can and most likely will negatively afect your performance and mood.
When i come home from work and log in to the game this is not how i want to be made to feel any time i join a pug. This is supposed to be my recreation time where i can relax not be put on edge coz someone is monitoring my every move.

I’m fully 100% in agreement with OP, the feeling of being monitored and watched, judged in ALL game modes, without my knowledge/approval and without the ability to do ANYTHING against it is really making me feel uncomfortable. Atleast give us the option to block it or opt-out.

I’m really disappointed in anet doing it this way. First HoT, now this… maybe it’s time for me to move on.

Sykper.6583 feel better now you got that out your system?
depsite what you think Anet like any other company its policys need to be in acordance with the law and it dosent matter what country you live in they all have laws to protect your privacy thats why Anet has such a thing as a privacy policy in the first place and it is not just something they made up as they went along it is based on law’s that even they must follow
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/arenanet-privacy-policy/

Anet are not the all powerfull company you piant them out to be they do not have total control over my private info and canot do anything they like with it as you claim

thefinnster.6904:

OniGiri.9461 BDGM sounds like the kinda dps meter i can get behind its not intrusive and by downloading it consent is esentialy given
ARC DPS seems to be the main dps meter out there that is reading info from Anets servers based on what previous users have posted just what info im unsure on or if it considerd public data or private
theres nothing wrong with wanting to question this and better understand it coz only a fool blindly follows

no doubt like other users have stated we have given consent for Anet to use that info via the ToS we agreed to as i said before im not niave enough to think Anet has not thugroughly looked in to this beforehand and coverd there ases.

reguardless of the legality of it all it will not change how me and certain other players feel on the matter that it is an invasion of privacy and you can tell us its not all you like we will still feel the same way. id just like to see some consideration given to those of us who feel this way and a choice not to share that information seems like the best way to establish some sort of middle ground
to me giveing arc dps the green light is like seting up a sort of survailance culture in the game and its a fact that being spied on makes you feel uncomfortable if your feeling uncomfortable it can and most likely will negatively afect your performance and mood.
When i come home from work and log in to the game this is not how i want to be made to feel any time i join a pug. This is supposed to be my recreation time where i can relax not be put on edge coz someone is monitoring my every move.

I am also for questioning everything. You are right to do so.

Its ok to not wanting to be monitered and no one can tell you otherwise. BUT then you also have to accept that there will be people that don’t want to play with you. Just like you don’t want to play with people who use this monitoring tools.

The easiest way imo is to either open your own PUG that states “NO DPS METERS” in the description or asking after joining a group “Are you using dps meters” if yes – feel free to leave.
There is also the option to make it a rule for every PUG to state that they are using dps meters in description and by joining such a group you automatically consent.

But i guess changing your own behaviour is the easier solution here.

thefinnster.6904:

Sykper.6583 feel better now you got that out your system?
depsite what you think Anet like any other company its policys need to be in acordance with the law and it dosent matter what country you live in they all have laws to protect your privacy thats why Anet has such a thing as a privacy policy in the first place and it is not just something they made up as they went along it is based on law’s that even they must follow
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/arenanet-privacy-policy/

Anet are not the all powerfull company you piant them out to be they do not have total control over my private info and canot do anything they like with it as you claim

Damage calculation is not private. You dont own it and have no claim for it.