Bots work around it, Players deal with it.
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but of course the grinders cannot understand how is it possible that a MMO is not cattering to them.
MMO is not cattering to .
cattering
Irony…. xD
Because people that enjoy grinding are are so bad, I don’t understand you people.
Yep, they are rather bad. They are the reason why MMOs are mediocre games: when you have people willing to play content that they don’t even find fun, but which they play in order to get a big reward in the end, you are telling game developers that they don’t have to bother making good games, rather games addicting enough.
That’s bad game design. Grind is basically telling people they are as smart as a donkey following a carrot dangling in front of its face. It’s a shame that indeed, grinders are not much better than that, but the end result is that MMOs are now seen as games made for grinders, and not for anyone else. However, there aren’t enough grinders for all the MMOs currently available, so it’s no surprise MMO after MMO has been failing.
GW2 is trying to go into the opposite direction – as ArenaNet has said, GW2 is a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs (aka, people disgusted with grinders, farmers, and addicts). Now, grinders are facing this MMO and cannot understand why are they not being rewarded for grind, since that’s how every other MMO works – but that’s not how GW2 works. And, being unwilling to accept that, grinders fill this forum with whining and moaning.
That is the part of the community ArenaNet should ignore. They are not the game’s target audience, and they are not a valuable part of the community anyway (since they are just going to leave to a different game, as soon as the next big MMO is released).
So lets curb that by removing DR so people can farm whatever they need
In other words, allow grinders to grind as much as they want? Don’t think so. As ArenaNet has said, “we don’t want players to grind”.
“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
(edited by Erasculio.2914)
Because people that enjoy grinding are are so bad, I don’t understand you people.
Yep, they are rather bad. They are the reason why MMOs are mediocre games: when you have people willing to play content that they don’t even find fun, but which they play in order to get a big reward in the end, you are telling game developers that they don’t have to bother making good games, rather games addicting enough.
That’s bad game design. Grind is basically telling people they are as smart as a donkey following a carrot dangling in front of its face. It’s a shame that indeed, grinders are not much better than that, but the end result is that MMOs are now seen as games made for grinders, and not for anyone else. However, there aren’t enough grinders for all the MMOs currently available, so it’s no surprise MMO after MMO has been failing.
GW2 is trying to go into the opposite direction – as ArenaNet has said, GW2 is a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs (aka, people disgusted with grinders, farmers, and addicts). Now, grinders are facing this MMO and cannot understand why are they not being rewarded for grind, since that’s how every other MMO works – but that’s not how GW2 works. And, being unwilling to accept that, grinders fill this forum with whining and moaning.
That is the part of the community ArenaNet should ignore. They are not the game’s target audience, and they are not a valuable part of the community anyway (since they are just going to leave to a different game, as soon as the next big MMO is released).
So lets curb that by removing DR so people can farm whatever they need
In other words, allow grinders to grind as much as they want? Don’t think so. As ArenaNet has said, “we don’t want players to grind”.
WHAT? For grinding like crazy you get rewarded with a LEGENDARY/COOL EXOTIC or you can buy them with the gold you GRINDED for. And that’s if your successful at the Random Number Game to get your Precursor or if you have a LOT of gold which you HAVE to GRIND for…..
The grind is still there dude they just made it ridiculous and gave more power to the people that just play at the TP all day long and manipulate the market as they see fit! So is that who the game caters to then? Power hungry players who want to be all powerful TP moguls that lord over the average players by shifting prices as they see fit? I want to think no but from what I see in game is a different story.
Making the grind stupid ridiculous was the worst thing they could do. Anet may not want players to grind but players always find a way to do as you can see now. Did I forget to mention that they reward you for grinding even though they don’t like grinders?
“We really don’t like you Mr. Grinder and we are going to punish the bots and your fellow grinders with our DR system that’ll force you to move around the game world every hour or so! And we’ll make sure the loot tables are ridiculously low as well! Oh you still want to grind? Here’s your Legendary/Conjured Exotic, how’s that for punishment eh?”
Sounds like hypocrisy to me :/
So in the end DR needs to go quick as it was a temporary fix that no longer works.
edit: Oh and your quote in your signature? “Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.” That is utter hypocrisy now by two factors:
1. Fractals of the Mist
2. Ascended Gear
(edited by DandySlayer.7019)
IMO, DR is a poorly implemented and failed attempt at anti-botting, to say the least. It is exactly like the PvP matchmaking system in CoD series.
I am speculating here, but I have only seen bots do their work on nodes, not against mobs! DR is focused on loot from mobs, not nodes. So clearly then, its implementation is not to fight mobs but to control the economy and aggro players.
Proud member of Legion of Honour XIII
Do not click this link!
Do not click this link!
yeah there was bots which were only gathering nodes because they were getting zero drops
I took an arrow to the knee
The DR measures in this are about as effective as they were in Guild Wars: 0.1%
They basically guarantee people like me who don’t play constantly get crap for legitimate play while bots win the RNG game because of the sheer volume of hours they spend grinding away. The DR gives them merchant trash and they still get rares and precursors over time because of the sheer numbers involved.
There’s a reason other big games don’t take these measures to stop farmer bots. THEY DON’T FARGING WORK.
I agree with the OP. Making the real players (us) suffer for things that bots do is just wrong. It makes about as much sense as DRM like SecuROM. You punish your paying customer for something that software pirates do. Sooner or later people get sick of it and stop buying your games. The logic is epic fail, Anet. Wake up!
We heard . . . we listened . . . we ignored.
The grind is still there dude they just made it ridiculous and gave more power to the people that just play at the TP all day long and manipulate the market as they see fit!
What you call “making the grind ridiculous” was actually making the grind unrewarding. Which is an excellent idea, and probably one of the simplest ways to prevent grinders from having much of an impact on the game.
The issue is that DR, by itself, is not enough. ArenaNet was smart enough to add DR, but not smart enough to realize that, if grinders would be culled, playing the TP would still allow people to make small fortunes too quickly, with many of the same issues that grinders bring to the game.
The solution is not to remove DR – DR is great for the game and should be kept forever. The solution is to add a system with the same goal as DR to the Trading Post, in order to cull market manipulators as well. Unfortunately, that would require courage that ArenaNet probably does not have.
I agree with the OP. Making the real players (us) suffer for things that bots do is just wrong
Nope.
It’s not making real players suffer. Real players, as in players who play to have fun as opposed to grind, don’t even notice DR. It’s in place to block grinders, farmers, addicts. Those are incredibly mad with DR, which is one more reason it should stay in the game.
“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
DRM stands for Digital Rights Management. It’s generally used to stop piracy, not bots. The counter measures used by the dev team make it harder to bot. The reports that people give make it harder to bot. Believe it or not there has been a drastic decrease in bots, and I believe it’s because of the dev teams efforts in this regard. If I must suffer through a few months of a few side effects that don’t break the game for me in order to have a stable game down the road, I am more than happy to.
Thanks for the explanation. I meant to say diminished returns. I dont even care about that. I play for the experience and whats ever more bothering is all the things put in this game or should I say taken out , things that made life convenient are absent in this game for 1 reason. Anit-Bot measures.
The targetting is never predictable, Movement is clunky, what happened to autorun to target? playing meele is a pain in the kitten with keyboard. This game would never pass console standard on movement alone, thanks to anti bot measures. Even the portal names to the different starter areas in lions arch dont show up unless youre 1 step from entering it … why? why am i forced to walk up each one too see the name? is it because of the imfamous beetletun botters youd see in guild wars 1 autoruning to the town sign to exit? Seriosuly, did anet think they’d end all bots with this one or what?
Did someone really think that removing elements that made video gaming more intuitive and less cumbersome would end botters for good? laughs wow
Well, if you bothered to go into the options menu, there is a setting that shows all name. If you can be bothered to tick it.
Because people that enjoy grinding are are so bad, I don’t understand you people.
Yep, they are rather bad. They are the reason why MMOs are mediocre games: when you have people willing to play content that they don’t even find fun, but which they play in order to get a big reward in the end, you are telling game developers that they don’t have to bother making good games, rather games addicting enough.
That’s bad game design. Grind is basically telling people they are as smart as a donkey following a carrot dangling in front of its face. It’s a shame that indeed, grinders are not much better than that, but the end result is that MMOs are now seen as games made for grinders, and not for anyone else. However, there aren’t enough grinders for all the MMOs currently available, so it’s no surprise MMO after MMO has been failing.
GW2 is trying to go into the opposite direction – as ArenaNet has said, GW2 is a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs (aka, people disgusted with grinders, farmers, and addicts). Now, grinders are facing this MMO and cannot understand why are they not being rewarded for grind, since that’s how every other MMO works – but that’s not how GW2 works. And, being unwilling to accept that, grinders fill this forum with whining and moaning.
That is the part of the community ArenaNet should ignore. They are not the game’s target audience, and they are not a valuable part of the community anyway (since they are just going to leave to a different game, as soon as the next big MMO is released).
So lets curb that by removing DR so people can farm whatever they need
In other words, allow grinders to grind as much as they want? Don’t think so. As ArenaNet has said, “we don’t want players to grind”.
Hoooo boy, gonna take a while to tackle this load
First up:
The word is “addictive” and it’s the wrong word in itself too, your body doesn’t have a dependency on video games the “skinner box” mechanics create “compulsive” conditioned behavior in certain susceptible individuals, which creates the behavior you’re talking about, and by NO means are these folks to blame for it.
This is ALL the onus of game design and ridiculously “random” drop rates, time and cash investments into “rare items” all help to keep players “compulsively” grinding away, to blame the people who fall into these pitfalls is akin to blaming victims of random violence or assault for “bringing it down on themselves” and it’s INCREDIBLY childish and short sighted. No offense.
If we removed the insane investment of time and effort that went into legendaries or greatly reduced it, or even better yet, removed the bypassing of time and effort via market manipulation and/or Cash shop splurges, we’d actually allow for legendary weapons to mean something other than a quick assumption that someone’s played the market a few weeks or has too much disposable income and well… we’d probably consider the item more prestigious. But of course this is going to be a huge bone of contention with players that HAVE gone and gotten legendary weapons these ways or whatnot, ultimately in this regard we can’t change it now without stepping on too many toes, so it’s just totally messed up.
Also that’s one of the biggest mis-quotes I’ve EVER seen in gaming history right there
the manifesto stated
“if you like MMO’s you’ll want to check out guild wars 2, and if you don’t like MMO’s you’ll REALLY want to check out guild wars 2”
What I took from that is that it was doing away with a lot of the things that kept players from sticking to MMO’s, pressure in roles to perform in x way or an abundance of dps and a ton of prima-donna tanks and healers. A strong focus on overworld and not dungeons giving players a better experience in levelling and whatnot and most of all no “loot pvp” it was a great premise, but in fixing those issues they caused a lot more.
When they said “we don’t want you to grind” if I had interpreted that as “we’re going to punish you for grinding but place anything of long term goal value so far away it will frustrate you into quitting” then I wouldn’t have bought the game, and yet I find that explanation to be more accurate than the aforementioned which we got in the manifesto.
now mid way through, your post becomes just borderline offensive and totally misguided, again you use the term addicts and anyone with an interest in long term goals is a grinder. Yet you strongly oppose those that would ask for the grinds to be removed… and so your post just ends up reeking of an ulterior motive.
Irony…. xD
Nope.
It’s not making real players suffer. Real players, as in players who play to have fun as opposed to grind, don’t even notice DR. It’s in place to block grinders, farmers, addicts. Those are incredibly mad with DR, which is one more reason it should stay in the game.
I’m a “real player”
I want to be able to make enough to get basic equipment, and can’t because my account seems to be saddled with the “perma-dr glitch” that has its own sticky at the top of this forum.
I most certainly notice it when my guildies walk away from an average chest event with 2 ectos while I’ve seen 6 on my entire account since the lost shores patch.
The grind is still there dude they just made it ridiculous and gave more power to the people that just play at the TP all day long and manipulate the market as they see fit!
What you call “making the grind ridiculous” was actually making the grind unrewarding. Which is an excellent idea, and probably one of the simplest ways to prevent grinders from having much of an impact on the game.
The issue is that DR, by itself, is not enough. ArenaNet was smart enough to add DR, but not smart enough to realize that, if grinders would be culled, playing the TP would still allow people to make small fortunes too quickly, with many of the same issues that grinders bring to the game.
The solution is not to remove DR – DR is great for the game and should be kept forever. The solution is to add a system with the same goal as DR to the Trading Post, in order to cull market manipulators as well. Unfortunately, that would require courage that ArenaNet probably does not have.
I agree with the OP. Making the real players (us) suffer for things that bots do is just wrong
Nope.
It’s not making real players suffer. Real players, as in players who play to have fun as opposed to grind, don’t even notice DR. It’s in place to block grinders, farmers, addicts. Those are incredibly mad with DR, which is one more reason it should stay in the game.
An unrewarding game is a bad game. period. there is nothing else to add to that and so the first half of your post just seems to be irrational. Perhaps it’s your interpretation of what a game is that’s warped, but everything in gaming is based on rewards be it the reward of winning, the learning and improvement of skills or points, achievements etc.
If there was no grind there would be no grinders, this simple fact COMPLETELY eludes you. And I find myself BAFFLED as to how you can not come to this simple logical conclusion.
The addition of DR did not in any way cause players to get “past the roadblock” don’t fool yourself. The only way to deal with market manipulators would be to invest in regulating it more than they’re willing to, and thus it will remain.
Again the last part is just completely wrong, as there’s no “addicts” as I explained before, you just seem to have some sort of prejudice or personal grudge. Or to be more precise, a possible ulterior motive behind your views.
When your definition of fun is the ONLY definition of fun you accept, and your definition of fun impacts on other players definition of fun negatively, something is wrong. And thus I would deem your definition… as wrong.
Irony…. xD
While DR seems to be a pain in the kitten, from my understanding it was implemented as a fail safe to stop people exploiting an unexpectedly profitable event/dungeon/area. Yes people see it as a failed anti-bot measure, but it was put in place because there was lots of money to be had by speed running dungeons, doing certain events repeatedly, and farming certain areas.
I do believe DR should be removed from loot, just keep it for event and dungeon rewards, and let the economy sort itself out.
While DR seems to be a pain in the kitten, from my understanding it was implemented as a fail safe to stop people exploiting an unexpectedly profitable event/dungeon/area. Yes people see it as a failed anti-bot measure, but it was put in place because there was lots of money to be had by speed running dungeons, doing certain events repeatedly, and farming certain areas.
I do believe DR should be removed from loot, just keep it for event and dungeon rewards, and let the economy sort itself out.
They shouldn’t put DR in period.
if any specific event is offering more rewards than others, then the event needs to be adjusted.
Then again, they could up the reward on events in under-populated zones as a means to get people into those zones.
DR is never the answer, though.
The grind is still there dude they just made it ridiculous and gave more power to the people that just play at the TP all day long and manipulate the market as they see fit!
What you call “making the grind ridiculous” was actually making the grind unrewarding. Which is an excellent idea, and probably one of the simplest ways to prevent grinders from having much of an impact on the game.
Did you miss the part where I said they reward grinders because I believe you did.
The grind is still there dude they just made it ridiculous and gave more power to the people that just play at the TP all day long and manipulate the market as they see fit!
What you call “making the grind ridiculous” was actually making the grind unrewarding. Which is an excellent idea, and probably one of the simplest ways to prevent grinders from having much of an impact on the game.
Did you miss the part where I said they reward grinders because I believe you did.
I honestly don’t think he understood what you said.
Irony…. xD
I most certainly notice it when my guildies walk away from an average chest event with 2 ectos while I’ve seen 6 on my entire account since the lost shores patch.
Ectos don’t drop from chests…
An unrewarding game is a bad game. period.
Poor thing. That’s what MMOs have taught people – that a game is a reward, instead of being an experience. People used to play games for the experience of having fun, and that’s still why most people play single player games. It’s only MMOs that cater to the notion that the experience is nothing, while the reward is everything.
I’m still amazed that people accept this. I wonder, when a grinder goes to see a movie, does he demand to be paid? Since the experience is not enough, but the reward is everything, the experience of seeing a good movie should be felt as pointless, and so a reward would have to be given.
“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
Due to the inflammatory tone of this thread, it will be closed. Please keep in mind that if you want to discuss issues on our forums, you have to do it in a constructive way.
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