Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aeonblade.8709:

Swagger.1459:

I hope that if a “grand journey” to horizontal progression is introduced, the paths are equally offered to wvw, pvers and dungeon/fractal players or you’ll run into the same issues that we currently have with ascended vertical progression.

This, remember, WvW centric players aren’t going to be pleased if they have to farm PvE for their progression, be it horizontal or vertical

Add targets or mechanics for the progression on the parts of the Borderlands or Eternal Battlegrounds outside of the general combat area. Like behind Speldan, or out behind the skritt/centaurs/orchard.

OR . . . OR put it in Edge of the Mists?

Either or is a good idea. Or make the progression in three seperate sets: WvW progression (based off rank, kills, kill challenges such as win a 1v2 without another person hitting the 2 you are fighting etc.) PvE, and sPvP progression.

There is really no need to dice it up further than that imo. To me, the grand journey is a new challenge each day fighting in WvW, which is one of the only game modes that provides the feeling of something new to me after all this time.

ColinJohanson.2394:

• Additional story lines with your orders that allow you complete or unlock new masteries/abilities.

Tying new masteries and or abilities directly to orders is a bad bad idea.
- you can only join 1 order on a specific character.
- what if the masteries I want or make sense for my class belong to a different order ?

unless the current order joining system is drastically changed I don’t see this working properly.
- say I can either join a different order or choose to join all 3 but represent 1 at a time kinda fix.

They don’t belong to different orders, you’d get all masteries from all orders.

ColinJohanson.2394:

I think we have a lot of fun ideas in here for the journey unlock specific aspects of that mastery, but what if you first had to unlock the core “mastery” track, which then allowed you collect the smaller components? What kind of experience do you think would be compelling here as an over-all journey?

How to Introduce Players to Mastery
This one seems clear to me – the Personal Story alerts. That way it pops up on their screen, and since it involves developing their character and evolving his/her particular journey that makes sense. This way even casual players who just log in every now and then will have a pop-up to get them started and alert them to the new system. Perhaps even a cut-scene introducing the new kind of Mastery to be obtained and who will be guiding their progress —a themed NPC that relates to the area of mastery, like the Assassin thief, or the Paladin guardian, or the Sorceror elementalist.

The Journey to Mastery
I can’t remember who said this, but each chunk of this journey should probably be able to be done in less than 2-3 hours so that even a casual player can feel a sense of accomplishment towards their goal. At each major waypoint along the journey to mastery you meet with the Master NPC, who unveils the new weapon/skill/skin you have obtained for your next step in mastery.

Steps of Mastery
New weapons (!!!!!!1!one!1!!) – if this comes first, it is immediately apparent to players that Mastery is worth pursuing, and it immediately offers fresh fun gameplay.

New skills – I would like to see at least one new skill for each slot related to mastery. Learn a heal, learn 3 utilities, and an Elite once you complete mastery. These skills should complement EXISTING aspects of the class so that they open new doors, and hopefully buff some of the potential areas of building which are currently under used.

Purpose of Skills – I think the two best things that could be done are to open new build options, and to make skills more dynamic. By dynamic, I mean that they make combat more fast-paced, feel more epic, and thus more fun. One easy way to do this is by adding lots more movement elements (particularly on the vertical, rather than just horizontal, planes). Leaps to enemies, ground-targeted leaps, leaps to allies to add defense, pushes, pulls… these are all really cool and work SO well with the dodge mechanic already in place because they encourage skillful and strategic play both in pve and pvp.

New Skins/Titles – The weapons and skills should all be obtainable in each step in a few hours, but then there can be a whole nother level of expressing Mastery which is more time intensive to unlock vanity items related to the mastery.

Mastery Content
The weapons and skills need to all be unlockable by a single player, and could be progressed through a combination of open world and instanced actions similar to Personal Story. After that, however, the idea of Mastery can be brought to bear on a lot of aspects of the game to freshen up other aspects of the game. Vanity skins/titles can be earned once Mastery has been demonstrated in various ways. Many of these suggestions have been made elsewhere, but a few of my favorites:

Mastery level dungeons – Kick up the difficulty, add new mechanics, and have players conquer every path of every dungeon. Or give currency rewards/account bound crafting items for completing Mastery level dungeons.

Mastery of Vanquishment – Vanquish idea, branded through Mastery to show your total domination of a zone/instance.

Mastery of Mechanics – Untie the mastery from specific content, and instead relate it to specific actions like successful dodges, cleansing conditions, killing certain types of mobs, interrupts, etc.

Mastery of World Bosses – Encourage people to do the events or world bosses which are sometimes missed. I think the “Expeditions” NPC in major cities to recruit people for events which are live/are going live is a great way to do that.

Latinkuro.9420:

ColinJohanson.2394:

• Additional story lines with your orders that allow you complete or unlock new masteries/abilities.

Tying new masteries and or abilities directly to orders is a bad bad idea.
- you can only join 1 order on a specific character.
- what if the masteries I want or make sense for my class belong to a different order ?

unless the current order joining system is drastically changed I don’t see this working properly.
- say I can either join a different order or choose to join all 3 but represent 1 at a time kinda fix.

The idea would be, or should be, to make sure all orders’ masteries/abilities/jujus would be suited for their order but also for their class. So while Whispers agents might get sneaky things thieves can still get things for being sneaky sneak backstabbers from Vigil or Priory training.

Difficult to balance out correctly perhaps, but overall more rewarding to see your choices actually impact your character rather than “meh, it doesn’t matter which order I join”.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Thanks folks lots of really great ideas, concepts and discussion here!

It has been a great read and its been nice to see people play off of each other’s ideas and to go back and refine their own ideas in the face of thoughtful, constructive criticism.

I think the biggest thing I was trying to get at with my question is: what should the journey towards an alternative system of horizontal progression really be like?

Oh… I think that can be summed up easily …

Fun.

Or at least not un-fun.

Folks talked a lot about different ways you could say acquire skills other than the current system, but that’s really more a change to an existing skill acquisition system, as opposed to the journey of unlocking something like an advanced profession (or masteries) as some of you discussed.

Say for example, we decided to allow your profession to gain an additional mastery as Nike and Chuggs in particular discussed above. I think we have a lot of fun ideas in here for the journey unlock specific aspects of that mastery, but what if you first had to unlock the core “mastery” track, which then allowed you collect the smaller components? What kind of experience do you think would be compelling here as an over-all journey?

Then I’d have to ask myself is wanting to try out a new Mastery I’m interested in on Tequatl’s face tonight with the guild make the journey pleasant or frustrating?

While there’s an obvious Developer-desire to have the design work they’ve done prompt as many hours of play as possible, its easy to go too far and turn the journey into drudgery and grind. Looks at ascended armor – one set of skins and some minutely bigger numbers trying to encourage us to gather and farm for weeks. For many it was too little butter scrapped over far too much toast.

Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

I did a quick search of the thread so I’m 99% certain no one has brought up the idea that’s the most inside-the-box.

Paid Expansion.

No one who loves this game can be unaware that there is significant competition lurking just around the corner. I for one would like it that when my fellow gamer goes into the store and starts puzzling over how to spend his gaming dollars that there be a box with the GW2 logo on sitting in a place-of-prominence on the shelf. A box that isn’t 18 months old… A reminder to lapsed players and an enticement to new Tyrian heroes.

Noting the usual concerns of splitting up your playerbase into haves and have-nots, maybe we could see a hybrid expansion… Consider a rich set of new character options: 3 new weapons per profession, 12 new skills per class including 3 elites, the full array of an Adept, Master, and Grandmaster trait added to all 5 Trait Lines of all 8 professions (120 in all). And the OPTIONS to gain all that by working through the journeys offered by 24 new Masters (3 per profession) or the ability to BUY a master unlock code off a store shelf physical or virtual.

There is nothing wrong with the people who don’t give a skritts’ bumm about story and journey and just want to take to the Mists in open war or have a good time with their guildmates bashing Tequatl’s face with the new Masteries. Tonight. Immediately. Now. For a modest real-world fee. And nothing prevents them from coming back and playing through those journeys later – the content is still there welcoming them to the challenge.

(or is that just too Pay to Win?)

@ColinJohanson,

In regards to new weapon skills/unlocks, I think the way it worked in GW1 in terms of obtaining both normal and elite skills using the Signet of Capture was so unique and amazing. It was something I had never seen done before in any other game I had played, whereby you go around the world looking for specific bosses that have the elite that you want, and that boss had a particular glow depending on what profession it was – gold/yellow for warrior, cyan for ritualist, green for necromancer etc. you slayed that boss, and captured its elite when standing near its corpse. I felt like I had truly earnt that skill, and that to me is what it’s all about – true progression.

So something like a Signet of Capture concept where you can purchase, or get via a reward, and go around and collect weapon skills from bosses would be ideal – and would make you feel as though you truly earnt it.

You could even swap in, say, 10-20 skill points for a capture skill (as many have been wanting more ways to use excess skill points, this could be another way to use them up?)

Edit: another idea could be bringing back elite tomes? Just a thought anyway.

ColinJohanson.2394:

A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

Alright, I will admit that I’ve fallen woefully behind on this thread, so I want preface this with an apology if something like this has already been suggested.

Daily/Monthly Quests That Matter
What if our Daily/Monthly achievement quests were no longer just a random assortment of quests, but now were specific to your character’s race and/or profession? Perhaps the first time you do it, you meet your race or profession specific tutor who will teach you how to better yourself “unlock more abilities”. Then, everyday you had a new set of quests that you had to do that were specific to your profession and quests you had done in the past. These could even tie into your monthly quest.

Examples of Profession Specific Daily Quests
Let’s say your an elementalist: Perhaps your first task would be to “Better familiarize yourself with the Elements”. So each day you have element specific daily quests. For Fire attunement it could be things like “Kill X enemies without switching from Fire Attunement”, “Kill X fire elementals”, “Kill X enemies in a fiery zone (Fireheart Rise, Blazeridge Steppes, etc)”.

Rinse, Repeat for each of the 4 attunements. Then it progress so now you have harder tests like, killing a veteran on your own while attuning to only one or two attunements. Underwater fighting, killing Vets, killing Champs, etc. It could even lead up to eventually killing certain World Bosses. Then once you’ve “finished” your “training”, a new form of Profession-specific Mastery is unlocked.

Ideas for Profession Mastery
This is where I get fuzzy because I don’t know what is technically possible or would balanced. I like the idea of locking some skills in a way similar to GW1, where you have to kill a certain enemy in the world to learn a certain skill. Again referring to elementalist some new skill unlock ideas of mine:

• A Fire Tornado skill by killing the Fire Elemental
• Freeze Breath, or AOE Ice Blast from JoJo
• AOE Tsunami Push Back from Teq

Anyway, I hope all that makes sense. Basically, I think it would be nice to pair the mastery with something most people do already (daily quests) as a way to unlock something down the road.

Also in regards to factions like Kurzick/Luxon, that was pretty cool in GW1, as you felt like you belonged. To switch things up in GW2, perhaps we could follow one of the 6 Gods instead? It would be pretty cool to earn unique skills and faction points for your God.

ColinJohanson.2394:

A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

Something bigger… so much bigger.

New horizons, new techniques.

As true explorers we reach out to lands long forgotten. We travel, we watch, we learn. The tengu show us martial arts that we’ve never seen before and the forgotten teach us the fine art of meditation. The simians show us the real meaning of forest-dwelling and ogden shows us the long lost spirit of the dwarves.

Our current knowledge of combat is limited to what we know of this world, but there is so much more to discover.

As soon as we set foot on new land, we are drawn to these new inspirations. In the form of a personal story, we learn to understand the mechanics of this new system. (Whatever they may be.) And through visiting the places that are most important to those living in these lands, we get to know them. We commune with the forces of nature and we learn from wise wizards. We fight against their warriors and with them. We watch their warriors in their arena. We study their technology and we analyze their tricks.

What starts with a personal story unfolds in expeditions of our own. With areas so dangerous that they require either an army of npc’s or an expedition of some well trained players. (Go alone and take your time to do the pre-events, or go ahead and skip the pre-events with some friends)

It is at the sources of knowledge – temples, ruins, bloodstones and such – that the evolution of our skill system completes. In a test of our newly learned fighting style, we defend the locals against their demons and after that we are initiated in their rituals.

In WvW new areas are added. These areas are powerful exotic links to the world outside of the mists. Where events spawn that decide who has control over these forces. The events are of epic proportions (world boss size) and can be fought by all sides at the same time. When a server takes control of such a force, a portal opens to an area of learning. Which is where the WvW-ers can spend badges and skillpoints to gain insight in the exotic art of war. In addition to that, the events reward a server with exotic buffs/debuffs on their opponents. From summoning a desert wurm to wreck the enemies keep, to calling down lightning on all your opponents.

In PvP you can also visit the areas of learning, but nothing is required to obtain the skills there. Though the NPC’s will guide you through the basics of these new mechanics. (Minimal lore is added) And some PvE-like foes are added to the area so players can use this place to test new builds before investing in the ‘somewhat lengthy’ quest of learning.

I don’t think we’re quite ready for this yet. But if it comes, I would love to see it come with a big world expansion. Nothing makes more sense to me for explaining an expansion on the skill-system than the learning of exotic teachings.

Signet of Capture seems like a fun way to get skills (for PvE players) but in GW2, where you don’t have millions of skills to go around, you’ll want some loremaster NPC who knows where to find them. Otherwise people have to use wiki – the idea of stumbling across a skill unassisted is still possible but most players simply can’t be bothered, and if going hunting for the skill they want isn’t their idea of fun, then… who am I to argue?

I think for something more trait-oriented – or for sub-classes/secondary classes/masteries if any of these concepts end up being used – the Order-based or personal story options start to shine through. It’s not just one skill; it opens up quite a bit more, so the extra investment makes sense.

Whatever system is used, locking people out of proficiencies based on their order, or restricting them from switching later, is just not a very nice thing to do to people. I’d like to see the different Orders unlock the same proficiencies in different ways. If ANet can spare the time to develop three chains per proficiency – quite an undertaking really – it adds that bit of flavour but doesn’t restrict anyone’s options.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Difficult to balance out correctly perhaps, but overall more rewarding to see your choices actually impact your character rather than “meh, it doesn’t matter which order I join”.

“Meh, it doesn’t matter which race I choose.” was a great idea, and even that doesn’t adequately inform people of the differences in Racial skills before the irrevocable choice is locked in.

I have no problem with Order advancement opening up masteries – as long as all of the gameplay-altering tools are available through all three Orders. The Journeys can (and should) be different, but players cannot be frozen out of masteries because they picked an Order ignorant of the consequences.

Ben K.6238:

Signet of Capture seems like a fun way to get skills (for PvE players) but in GW2, where you don’t have millions of skills to go around, you’ll want some loremaster NPC who knows where to find them. Otherwise people have to use wiki – the idea of stumbling across a skill unassisted is still possible but most players simply can’t be bothered, and if going hunting for the skill they want isn’t their idea of fun, then… who am I to argue?

I think for something more trait-oriented – or for sub-classes/secondary classes/masteries if any of these concepts end up being used – the Order-based or personal story options start to shine through. It’s not just one skill; it opens up quite a bit more, so the extra investment makes sense.

Whatever system is used, locking people out of proficiencies based on their order, or restricting them from switching later, is just not a very nice thing to do to people. I’d like to see the different Orders unlock the same proficiencies in different ways. If ANet can spare the time to develop three chains per proficiency – quite an undertaking really – it adds that bit of flavour but doesn’t restrict anyone’s options.

True, I think the acquisition of obtaining Signet of Capture could be by a players’ personal story as well – it would be quite cool. Though I think it’s important to note Signet of Capture should be acquired by both personal story rewards and via using skill points

Love, love, LOVE, the idea of a Signet of Capture in GW2.

I also think there should be more world-based NPC interaction where, if, say, the Shadow Behemoth is attacking, a nearby NPC will say so, and you could also talk to NPC’s like you say, and find out where you can capture X skill, indicated by (or divided into) what profession based skill you’re after.

I’m actually talking about different methods of acquisition for different things – quest lines for traits (and some? skills perhaps) and SoC for skills only.

You’re saying… scouts, but for capping skills? That actually sounds like a reasonable compromise to me – there’s a few zones to check but it won’t be overwhelming.

[Edit: Whoops, you’re talking about two different things entirely. :x ]

ColinJohanson.2394:

Do you feel like if we asked you to do 90 different events in a month, and that allowed your ranger to say become a Druid, you’d feel like that was a cool system?

Sure! but only IF…

• It was thematic (90 Dynamic Events chosen from a pool that make sense as training towards being a druid)

• It was well messaged. If there were NPCs (existing trainers, new Masters) or a location (Whisper’s Apple Cellar, Lion’s Arch Lionguard Barracks) that acted as a dispatch hub that told me where to go. As the month goes on I’d want to be able log in, check-in, and go directly to the content I need to pursue to advance my goal. Long journeys are fine as long as they never make me feel like a fool fumbling in the dark.

• The rewards at the end are something that I can put to my own purposes, not lock me into someone else’s idea of heroism.

Druid is a great theme that can inspire and organize a bundle, but a locked bundle will only give me just one thing I can do. I’ll always be dozens of times more excited at receiving a collection of separate parts to further refine my Backwoods Trapper (a build devoted to countering and anhilating Thieves) or my Dreamtime Walker – a Ranger every bit as mystical as a “Druid” but inspired by Australian folklore instead of Northern European.

Ben K.6238:

I’m actually talking about different methods of acquisition for different things – quest lines for traits (and some? skills perhaps) and SoC for skills only.

You’re saying… scouts, but for capping skills? That actually sounds like a reasonable compromise to me – there’s a few zones to check but it won’t be overwhelming.

Quest lines for new traits would be something I’d be interested in as well as the Signet of Capture concept for new weapon skills, sounds awesome.

ColinJohanson.2394:

The event idea is an interesting one, but it doesn’t feel like a “grand journey” so to speak. Do you feel like if we asked you to do 90 different events in a month, and that allowed your ranger to say become a Druid, you’d feel like that was a cool system?

Hello Colin!

I really liked the way Final Fantasy XI handled advanced job unlocks. They were story quests which provided a lot of lore and a sense of identity for the class. I think more than anything else it’s important to have each step of the unlock help define the story of the sub-profession.

Another poster mentioned that they’d like to see unlocks through story quests, but that implementation in WvW might be tricky. My suggestion is that this might be a good place to bring back the Signet of Capture (at least in spirit).

Both PvE and WvW players could be required to hunt for the actual tools necessary to learn the skills they want. In a hypothetical scenario where each sub-class access to a unique weapon (as well as a selection of other weapons), players could start out with an item that summons it as an environmental weapon with no skills. By either following the storyline and playing related content in the world, PvE players would be able to use the Signet as a bundle similar to the Tassi Box to the skills needed to handle the weapon. WvW players could capture skills in a similar way, only through defeating other players and keep lords.

I think that a scenario like this might be adjustable for length and difficulty, depending on how challenging you’d like unlocking the sub-classes to be.

Edit: Whoops, I didn’t read closely enough—Signet of Capture is already a hot topic!

Nike.2631:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Difficult to balance out correctly perhaps, but overall more rewarding to see your choices actually impact your character rather than “meh, it doesn’t matter which order I join”.

“Meh, it doesn’t matter which race I choose.” was a great idea, and even that doesn’t adequately inform people of the differences in Racial skills before the irrevocable choice is locked in.

Except it does matter which race you choose. Hence why I see quite a significant amount of asura roamers in WvW as opposed to charr. Not for the skills but because they’re small and sometimes easy to miss through clutter at a distance.

But you know, I pointed that out because I do want the choices I make to matter to my character. I really do. I want them to matter for ways other than things nobody else ever knows. I want the fact I chose to join the Vigil show as something other than a footnote in the personal story data.

I want it to shape how my character progresses. Differently, but not GREATER THAN others who chose Priory, or Whispers.

. . . or, I guess, we can just have a Whispers skill which spawns apple barrels.

Bonefield.9813:

Another poster mentioned that they’d like to see unlocks through story quests, but that implementation in WvW might be tricky. My suggestion is that this might be a good place to bring back the Signet of Capture (at least in spirit).

That’s where I thought PvP trainers with more of a gauntlet-style challenge, using events inspired by WvW situations, could handle the problem. Quicker to unlock, because WvW players are more interested in competing with these new abilities than the journey to get them – which is only important as a tutorial of sorts – but more challenging than the PvE version, because WvW players are up to the challenge.

I feel that whole system might be excessive for individual skills though, both in PvE and WvW (I’m assuming sPvP continues to allow free access to everything). Rather, using the ‘druid’ as an example, I’d figure it would unlock a set of thematic skills and traits, and possibly a weapon if appropriate.

If we’re going down this route of making new skills and weapons obtainable through the Orders, it can’t be done in a way that you’re locked out of certain skills and weapons due to the Order you picked in your personal story. A choice you made in your personal story should have no bearing on your character progression options that actually affect combat. Otherwise they’d have to be balanced like the racial skills, ultimately making them useless.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Say for example, we decided to allow your profession to gain an additional mastery as Nike and Chuggs in particular discussed above. I think we have a lot of fun ideas in here for the journey unlock specific aspects of that mastery, but what if you first had to unlock the core “mastery” track, which then allowed you collect the smaller components? What kind of experience do you think would be compelling here as an over-all journey?

Well the Crystal Desert Ascension in GW1 kind of hit the nail on the head for me as far as the journey goes, even though it didn’t reward us with new powers etc.

First you had to FIND these places out in the world, and without waypoints back then, it was kind of like finding an oasis when you finally ran into a town instance, it felt like you REALLY found it, along with all of the obstacles and things like sand wurms, maze like paths, and teleporters, REACHING one of the towns where an ascension trial instance took place was rewarding in and of itself, as it was difficult to fight there without a full party, and even a challenge to run.

Then once you managed to find these places, at each place you had to complete a different type of challenge with your group, but you could do them in any order, but each one had a very different style of challenge, and each challenge had a specific purpose, but depended on team tactics and strategic splitting to succeed.

THEN, once you completed those three trials and used the items you got from them, they gain you access to the inside of Augury rock, where you Face your doppleganger in SINGLE combat. This was great, as there is almost no better test of your ability than defeating yourself, and the previous trials depended on how well you worked as a group, so this tested you on your own, and actually proved to be QUITE difficult in most cases.

THEN after defeating yourself, and truly becoming “Ascended” you were transported to Glint’s Lair, where you get the opportunity to learn elite skills special for each class, while fighting through various themed sections devoted to that profession, to finally reach Glint. Essentially, as each boss you captured an Elite from was a “facet” or piece/aspect of Glint, you basically learned magic from a Dragon.

That in and of itself is awesome, very appropriate to learn powerful, even ancient skills from a dragon, but even MORE so now in GW2, as dragons are much more relevant.

What made it such a journey was mainly the difficulty and distance getting to each place, and how HUGE it made the world seem, and the difficulty of each task assigned really brought people together. To reproduce this feel in GW2, we could:

• travel into a new area, that has NO waypoints, excluding waypoints at the trials/towns themselves, to bring back that frontier, into the great unknown feel.

• At each of these places separated by great space, we place a trial with a story that connects them all and gives them relevance, and use them as prerequisites for a bigger or more important singular task.

• Upon the completion of these trials, and singular trial, access a special area where some sort of ultimate or highly difficult challenge will give the opportunity to learn these Master Skills, along with a team, as each person has already proven themselves.

Even IF, you simply brought back the original ascension trials, and made it so that we had to kind of “follow in the footsteps” of our ancestors from 250 years ago, to reach Glint’s lair and possibly find….. Glint’s child, who is looking to avenge his mother, and is willing to teach us the skills needed to face a dragon and it’s champions…. It would be great.

Maybe now, instead of going against the forgotten, we are racing against aetherblades, or minions of kraalk or another dragon, who are trying to become ascended to reach glint’s lair and kill his child, as it is a decent threat to their master.

Either way, the journey I think is made from the travelling, if we simply go to a place we have been to, or wp right next to it, the journey is over before it starts.

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

I had a discussion about this recently with some friends. It’s a bit offtopic, but yes. Waypoints are a fantastic convenience, but they have the side-effect of making the world feel a lot smaller and diminishing the feeling of exploration. One thing that this game completely lacks, which I’ve always actually kind of enjoyed in MMOs in a kind of masochistic way, is actual fear. It’s hard to be afraid in a new, unknown place when you know you can just respawn at the waypoint a minute back. I would love to see some experimentation with regions that don’t have waypoints.

Cliff.8679:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

I had a discussion about this recently with some friends. It’s a bit offtopic, but yes. Waypoints are a fantastic convenience, but they have the side-effect of making the world feel a lot smaller and diminishing the feeling of exploration. One thing that this game completely lacks, which I’ve always actually kind of enjoyed in MMOs in a kind of masochistic way, is actual fear. It’s hard to be afraid in a new, unknown place when you know you can just respawn at the waypoint a minute back. I would love to see some experimentation with regions that don’t have waypoints.

I call that region “Orr” because more often than not there are tons of waypoints and all of them are contested

Sir Arthur.8905:

Even IF, you simply brought back the original ascension trials, and made it so that we had to kind of “follow in the footsteps” of our ancestors from 250 years ago, to reach Glint’s lair and possibly find….. Glint’s child, who is looking to avenge his mother, and is willing to teach us the skills needed to face a dragon and it’s champions…. It would be great.

Truncated for brevity – but I love the idea of revisiting the Crystal Desert for ascension like that. It didn’t make a whole lot of sense in the Prophecies storyline but it does here.

Cliff.8679:

One thing that this game completely lacks, which I’ve always actually kind of enjoyed in MMOs in a kind of masochistic way, is actual fear. It’s hard to be afraid in a new, unknown place when you know you can just respawn at the waypoint a minute back. I would love to see some experimentation with regions that don’t have waypoints.

One of my favourite memories of the GW1 beta weekends was trying to make my way over the Shiverpeaks to Lion’s Arch from Piken Square with a small party of under-level characters. Back then you had to respawn at the last outpost – Piken Square – if you wiped. It was a dangerous journey and it felt like quite an accomplishment when I made it, regardless of how I eventually discovered I was doing it wrong by not going through the missions to get there.

Ben K.6238:

Sir Arthur.8905:

Even IF, you simply brought back the original ascension trials, and made it so that we had to kind of “follow in the footsteps” of our ancestors from 250 years ago, to reach Glint’s lair and possibly find….. Glint’s child, who is looking to avenge his mother, and is willing to teach us the skills needed to face a dragon and it’s champions…. It would be great.

Truncated for brevity – but I love the idea of revisiting the Crystal Desert for ascension like that. It didn’t make a whole lot of sense in the Prophecies storyline but it does here.

Cliff.8679:

One thing that this game completely lacks, which I’ve always actually kind of enjoyed in MMOs in a kind of masochistic way, is actual fear. It’s hard to be afraid in a new, unknown place when you know you can just respawn at the waypoint a minute back. I would love to see some experimentation with regions that don’t have waypoints.

One of my favourite memories of the GW1 beta weekends was trying to make my way over the Shiverpeaks to Lion’s Arch from Piken Square with a small party of under-level characters. Back then you had to respawn at the last outpost – Piken Square – if you wiped. It was a dangerous journey and it felt like quite an accomplishment when I made it, regardless of how I eventually discovered I was doing it wrong by not going through the missions to get there.

Ehhh, factual problems. There were three of outposts along the way: Yak’s Bend, Ice Tooth Cave, Beacon’s Perch. There were also two missions making it easy to reach Beacon’s Perch if completed. And you didn’t have to respawn at the outpost if you wiped, you’d respawn at the last Resurrection Shrine you passed with -15% death penalty to a maximum of -60%. And it would go no lower but you could still die and respawn and get plastered really easily

The dangerous journey was Beacon’s Perch to Droknar’s Forge with henchmen alone as your company Or, if you needed something different, Granite Citadel or Marhan’s Grotto.

There was not very many zones even in Prophecies far from an outpost. I can name five right off the top of my hand where there weren’t outposts relatively close and weren’t a postage-stamp size you could run through easily. Dragon’s Gullet, The Wilds, Mineral Springs, Dreadnought’s Drift, and Majesty’s Rest.

(Note, Dreadnought’s Drift is tiny but still jam-packed with all that lovely roaming group goodness dangerous to those trying to make Droknar’s. Complete with potentially a Res Shrine Death Loop if you were unlucky.)

Ben-

My fondest memories are spending literally all night trying to make it south in the Shiverpeaks through Lornar’s Pass. It was Beacon’s Perch to Granite Citadel or something. And it was brutal.

I was up until 6am trying one time when my cat stepped on my power strip and kicked me. (In GW1, you couldn’t rejoin.) I was Monk, so this meant doom for my party as well.

Despite the failure, I still remember this fondly.

timmyf.1490:

Ben-

My fondest memories are spending literally all night trying to make it south in the Shiverpeaks through Lornar’s Pass. It was Beacon’s Perch to Granite Citadel or something. And it was brutal.

I was up until 6am trying one time when my cat stepped on my power strip and kicked me. (In GW1, you couldn’t rejoin.) I was Monk, so this meant doom for my party as well.

Despite the failure, I still remember this fondly.

Beacon’s Perch through Lornar’s Pass, Dreadnought’s Drift, and Snake Dance before even seeing Camp Rankor. Longest potential path to take where you don’t have an option of ducking into an outpost. Also incredibly fatal to those setting out from Beacon’s Perch with armor/weapons you can get up until that point.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ehhh, factual problems. There were three of outposts along the way: Yak’s Bend, Ice Tooth Cave, Beacon’s Perch. There were also two missions making it easy to reach Beacon’s Perch if completed. And you didn’t have to respawn at the outpost if you wiped, you’d respawn at the last Resurrection Shrine you passed with -15% death penalty to a maximum of -60%. And it would go no lower but you could still die and respawn and get plastered really easily

Not in the Jan ‘05 beta – there were no resurrection shrines so you had to stay alive. At the time I had no maps to refer to, so I had to find the route over the Shiverpeaks – missed Grendich Courthouse, which was too well guarded by charr to make it with a group of level 4’s, and had to run past level 11 hydras in the Ascalon Foothills who’d just about one-shot the party with a well-placed Meteor.

Finally got to Borlis Pass where I got higher-level henchmen, but didn’t know that missions allowed you to progress further along at that point, so I ran through Iron Horse Mine and found Ice Tooth Cave. After that, I fought from there through to Scoundrel’s Rise – I think I skipped Lornar’s Pass (as Beacon’s Perch was called during that beta, hence the incorrect description in GW1 later) and into North Kryta Province on to Lion’s Arch.

Ascalon Foothills was by far the most treacherous bit. The Droknar’s run after release never had the same impact because the resurrection shrines had been added.

Ben K.6238:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ehhh, factual problems. There were three of outposts along the way: Yak’s Bend, Ice Tooth Cave, Beacon’s Perch. There were also two missions making it easy to reach Beacon’s Perch if completed. And you didn’t have to respawn at the outpost if you wiped, you’d respawn at the last Resurrection Shrine you passed with -15% death penalty to a maximum of -60%. And it would go no lower but you could still die and respawn and get plastered really easily

Not in the Jan ‘05 beta – there were no resurrection shrines so you had to stay alive. At the time I had no maps to refer to, so I had to find the route over the Shiverpeaks – missed Grendich Courthouse, which was too well guarded by charr to make it with a group of level 6s, and had to run past level 11 hydras in the Ascalon Foothills who’d just about one-shot the party with a well-placed Meteor.

Finally got to Borlis Pass where I got higher-level henchmen, but didn’t know that missions allowed you to progress further along at that point, so I ran through Iron Horse Mine and found Ice Tooth Cave. After that, I fought from there through to Scoundrel’s Rise – I think I skipped Lornar’s Pass (as Beacon’s Perch was called during that beta, hence the incorrect description in GW1 later) and into North Kryta Province on to Lion’s Arch.

Ascalon Foothills was by far the most treacherous bit. The Droknar’s run after release never had the same impact because the resurrection shrines had been added.

Really? Mind you my first finding out about the game was on launch day when I worked at EB Games and a friend brought it. I tried it for two days and went “I MUST HAVE THIS GAME”.

So I have fond memories of Prophecies before it was called Prophecies, and before Sorrow’s Furnace

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I call that region “Orr” because more often than not there are tons of waypoints and all of them are contested

Funny you mentioned that, I had another little paragraph talking about Orr being the closest thing we had to it due to all the contested waypoints, but ended up deleting it right before I posted! I feel like Orr isn’t quite what I’m looking for as far as a waypoint-less region because I feel like that area is just more annoying than scary. I think part of it is because it is still easy to get through it by yourself without worrying too much about sneaking around enemies and such, and that if you do die, there are still a few waypoints here and there. You don’t really feel so much fearful as you do annoyed running through Orr. Plus, by the time you go there, you’re already sick of dealing with Risen and the region itself is under siege, which kind of diminishes the whole idea of exploration.

Plus if you really wanted to get the full effect, a waypoint-less region would have to be far bigger than Orr.

And time to steer back to the topic of progression:

I’ve weighed in on my preferences, and I know it’s not agreeable to some but they’re what I personally would like to see. I would like your choices in the personal storyline to impact how your character develops, and so forth. But there’s objections (fairly!) to picking one of the three orders and finding out their offerings aren’t for you. Sort of like noticing after you get so far Whispers Medium does NOT look good on you . . .

So it doesn’t need to be completely exclusive, unlike the prestige armor.

Option #1: Once you hit the Pact section, the trainers will teach you secrets of other orders for a one-time charge of Skill Points to open them up. After all, by that point now you’re struggling together against Zhaitan, it’d be foolish not to share secrets which could change the war. And it’s the Commander, after all, s/he can be trusted.

Option #2: They’re also just all available but some are “discounted” for a certain order. Much like it is still possible to get “Antitoxin Spray” even though the story need for it is passed.

Cliff.8679:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I call that region “Orr” because more often than not there are tons of waypoints and all of them are contested

Funny you mentioned that, I had another little paragraph talking about Orr being the closest thing we had to it due to all the contested waypoints, but ended up deleting it right before I posted! I feel like Orr isn’t quite what I’m looking for as far as a waypoint-less region because I feel like that area is just more annoying than scary. I think part of it is because it is still easy to get through it by yourself without worrying too much about sneaking around enemies and such, and that if you do die, there are still a few waypoints here and there. You don’t really feel so much fearful as you do annoyed running through Orr. Plus, by the time you go there, you’re already sick of dealing with Risen and the region itself is under siege, which kind of diminishes the whole idea of exploration.

Plus if you really wanted to get the full effect, a waypoint-less region would have to be far bigger than Orr.

Crystal Desert, as under the reign of Kralkatorrik. “The fine sand gets in the mechanisms for Pact Beacons and keeps them from functioning so be extra careful out there!”

I wonder if you could have zones that large in GW2.

The idea of getting ascended… subclasses/proficiencies/traits/whatever-they-might-be through trips into the desert where Ascension genuinely is a battle for survival and you don’t even get waypoints to hold your hand…

I really do like it. It’s almost like Hard Mode, but more compelling. Of course, I say that now, with no idea of whether it’d work in the game, but it takes the Crystal Desert of GW1 with all those notes in the sand that leave you thinking “you got how far in a week?!” and makes something genuinely dangerous, with minions of Kralkatorrik and whatever else may inhabit the area to watch out for.

Give people a reason to take defensive builds.

Ben K.6238:

I wonder if you could have zones that large in GW2.

The idea of getting ascended… subclasses/proficiencies/traits/whatever-they-might-be through trips into the desert where it genuinely is a battle for survival and you don’t even get waypoints to hold your hand…

I really do like it. It’s almost like Hard Mode, but more compelling. Of course, I say that now, with no idea of whether it’d work in the game, but it takes the Crystal Desert of GW1 with all those notes in the sand that leave you thinking “you got how far in a week?!” and makes something genuinely dangerous, with minions of Kralkatorrik and whatever else may inhabit the area to watch out for.

Give people a reason to take defensive builds.

Only problem is then it sort of locks them behind content not everyone will want to do, or can get through if it’s tough enough. And if there’s anything we have heard a lot lately around here it’s “don’t lock your content behind stuff”.

Right… which means you still need to be able to survive the important bits solo. And underflow servers could help with the rest.

The other problem is I don’t really like the idea of getting all these …advancements in the same place. Why would you go to the Crystal Desert to learn the art of the druid?

Something which may have been suggested already, but if not I’ll do it here.

At present time there’s very little to do in the cities; even though there are quite the number of activities already in place. I’m talking about persistent minigames which could add to the longevity of this game as well as divert more people away from Lion’s Arch and into the other cities.

FOR INSTANCE

Rata Sum: Polymock Arena
- We have an Asura Gate and the Polymock Arena area is visible on our map, yet we cannot go there.

I believe a lot of people would LOVE to collect Polymock pieces and play in this arena. Similar to Unidentified Dyes you could have Unidentified Polymock Pieces.

The pieces themselves could be random drops to be traded on the TP and a ‘Polymock Starter Pack’ containing 3 random common/uncommon pieces could be made available through the Gemstore.

By participating in Polymock you could play against npc’s or other players and gain points and tokens. These points could then be linked to titles and the tokens to exchange for special prizes like skins, mini versions of the ‘stone’ Polymock Piece etc.

Divinity’s Reach: Carnival
- Several times I’ve gone through this area on multiple characters and I’ve always wondered when the shooting range would finally kick those nobles out so we can play. The carnival itself would also be a perfect spot to have minigames.

Lion’s Arch: Mini Battle Arena
- We’ve all seen that red circle that looks suspiciously like the ArenaNet logo and we’ve all seen spectators watching the two minis inside. The perfect place to add a functional Mini Battle Arena where people could bet on matches or bring minis of their own for fighting against one another. The latter might need some form of instancing though because a single arena would not be enough if hundreds of people want to participate in mini battles.

Not sure what might be added to the other cities, but I’m certain that ANet could breathe more life into these cities so people want to visit them instead of simply camping out in front of the bank in Lion’s Arch all the time.

@Conski Deshan:
Your post actually gives me a great way to elaborate on the thought process I had when envisioning the neighborhood system.

Conski Deshan.2057:

1. Communities or Solo instances?, do you want to see groups of players houses in the one instance or a private instance with only your house in it? (people can still visit either way.)

When I played LOTRO I kind of liked the community instances there. I think I liked the idea better than the application, because the areas were pretty ghost towny.

That’s why I came up with the visitation and eminence systems as well as tied crafting and QoL features to my idea. These would, of course, destroy the purpose of the Royal Pass cash shop item, but they would also provide more revenue options.

So, communities.

Conski Deshan.2057:

2. Construction, what level of involvement would you like? building it block by block? A room by room function where you can pick and choose rooms to add? A series of set designs?

Set designs is what I’d expect. A system that works like The Sims would be the ultimate way to do it though.

Conski Deshan.2057:

3.Functionalities, I think we can all agree at a basic level housing should allow for some storage and display of trophies/achievements/weapons/armor , in addition to this what would you like to see, Farming? nodes? intractable objects? side missions?

Basically the things I suggested in my post:

• Allowing your alts to interact/trade with one another.
• Access to crafting and auto/crafting
• A few RP/story elements such as toilet papering people’s yards
• Skritt hiding treasure in houses

I would not be opposed to farming (maybe get rid of all of the karma cooking ingredient vendors?) Nodes, interaction objects and side missions are all good too.

Conski Deshan.2057:

4. Interior customization, placing objects within the house how would you like it to work?

Like The Sims.

Conski Deshan.2057:

5. Getting items, How do you get items to put in your house?

General furniture:

• From merchants
• From drops
• From gems (incentive for developers of course)

Rare furniture:

• From drops

Collectable furniture:

• Crafted from blueprints either dropped or copied

Others:

• Achievements
• Map completion
• Living story
• Birthdays
• HoM
• Jumping puzzles and explorables

Conski Deshan.2057:

6. Linking to other content, is there anything you would like to link with housing? (i.e in a perfect vision of the future I could walk out of my house onto an airship dock and take my airship into combat)

My idea links entire accounts with housing. I also said some stuff about festival grounds.

One thing I didn’t mention was the story potential for neighborhood NPCs. It would be cool if there were randomly generated characters that hang around neighborhoods and interact with players. There could be a friendship/relationship system where your personality, dialogue choices, achievements and Eminence helps you get them to like you more and more based on their own traits.

That opens up potential for a lot. I would tie it in with my connection/marriage system and maybe get extra buffs for befriending NPCs. Extra props if you can hire them and face the threat of your neighbors sweet talking them away from your staff. grins

Can you believe I’m not a Tarnished Coast native?

DarkWasp, I read over your 5-post proposal for your idea of the housing. You obviously put a lot of thought into it, so I thought I’d offer some feedback.

First of all, I think a neighborhood system is an interesting idea and something I remember considering myself before GW2 actually launched and they were hinting at personal housing being something they’d like to implement sometime down the line. I think as a social system, that would be really cool. However, as a progression system, I think it would end up being too limiting. A personal instance would allow a lot more freedom as far as housing expansions, and ArenaNet would likely be able to make these personal instances a lot more sophisticated without having to account for a huge number of factors that would come with the inclusion of other players. I do like the idea of having extra things to do within the personal housing instance though, like being able to build a jumping puzzle or little minigames you could acquire for your instance.

I don’t really like the idea of a Visitation/Eminence system, because it’s far too easy to see it perpetuating a system of people spamming map chat begging for visitors.

Blueprints/furnishings/whatever similar system I think would be essential for any kind of proposal to a personal housing system, as how players furnish their homes should be the core fun of the activity. Furnishings and items within the houses that grant desirable functionality would also be a big thing that can help drive an economy with furnishing items, as well as provide new options for rewards that players will actively want to pursue.

For Boast Challenges, I don’t really see the need for open-world “Hard Mode” type content that involves handicapping yourself, so I can’t say I’m a fan of that. The most difficult content should be instanced, such as dungeons, anyway. I do think it would be cool to see more challenge out in the open world, but I think that should come more from the areas themselves rather than a handicapping system.

Character biographies and such could be fun little optional features, but I don’t think we really need an inspection system. I think ArenaNet purposefully left that out because they didn’t want to add another tool for people to discriminate against undergeared players. I’m not a fan of being forced into town clothes when in towns, especially due to the overall lack of town clothes at the moment. I don’t think perma-swiftness is necessary, as NPCs exist to grant that if we want it.

For buffs tied to housing, I think we should stay away from ones that affect anything combat-related. Magic Find, Karma Gain, Exp Gain, Food Buff duration, Waypoint Cost reduction, that kind of thing is all fair game. We should stay away from HP+, movement speed+, etc.

Relationship status seems weird to me, and I don’t really see it being beneficial to the game as a whole.

That’s all I’ve got.

On the subject of using the map to tie things into horizontal progression:

Please make a map or two with only one or just a few waypoints. Preferably tougher maps where you can feel like you really earned your way to an outpost, etc.

I’m late to this party and I don’t feel like combing through 47 pages for the answer to the question I’m about to ask, but I’m wondering what a sub-class system offers than the current trait system doesn’t already afford?

darkace.8925:

I’m late to this party and I don’t feel like combing through 47 pages for the answer to the question I’m about to ask, but I’m wondering what a sub-class system offers than the current trait system doesn’t already afford?

Nothing that I can tell, so far. The real issue is creating content and new, interesting, and fun “journeys” to attain new skills and traits for our characters. Attaching a fancy name to an existing class, like “Infiltrator” for a Thief and giving them their own abilities isn’t really any different than giving those “Infiltrator” abilities to the Thief class itself, and if players enjoy that playstyle, they can build around the relevant traits and skills. Some people have also mentioned unique “looks” that would be tied to subclasses, but what if you want to look a certain way but don’t like the playstyle of the relevant subclass?

Subclasses just seem like they would do more to limit us than anything else.

Cliff.8679:

darkace.8925:

I’m late to this party and I don’t feel like combing through 47 pages for the answer to the question I’m about to ask, but I’m wondering what a sub-class system offers than the current trait system doesn’t already afford?

Nothing that I can tell, so far. The real issue is creating content and new, interesting, and fun “journeys” to attain new skills and traits for our characters. Attaching a fancy name to an existing class, like “Infiltrator” for a Thief and giving them their own abilities isn’t really any different than giving those “Infiltrator” abilities to the Thief class itself, and if players enjoy that playstyle, they can build around the relevant traits and skills. Some people have also mentioned unique “looks” that would be tied to subclasses, but what if you want to look a certain way but don’t like the playstyle of the relevant subclass?

Subclasses just seem like they would do more to limit us than anything else.

Depends on if the subclasses are “one only” or build like Secondary Professions were in GW1. Because Secondary Professions in that game were what made it crazy full of potential builds.

Cliff.8679:

DarkWasp, I read over your 5-post proposal for your idea of the housing. You obviously put a lot of thought into it, so I thought I’d offer some feedback.

Someone want to link me to this, I would like to review it. I know I kept mine brief and with more space for dev interpretation, when I put mine out there. Wondering what other people have in mind.

Edit: This stood out though:

Cliff.8679:

For buffs tied to housing, I think we should stay away from ones that affect anything combat-related. Magic Find, Karma Gain, Exp Gain, Food Buff duration, Waypoint Cost reduction, that kind of thing is all fair game. We should stay away from HP+, movement speed+, etc.

Any or all of those could render guild banners pointless, and irrelevant. I would
suggest when pitching new mechanics to avoid stepping on the toes of other features which exist . . . it’s more likely to be seen positively.

For seeing what I’m getting at? A guild with properly stocked banners can share almost all the effects listed under the housing benefits you offered. And the “food” ones can be shared with the banquet-style creations, so what we’ve got suggested would render the banquet items and guild banners less useful.

And there are also the guild buffs which can be bought, one of which I think is reduced waypoint costs. So . . .

I mean, these are not BAD ideas, but they’re already in here and making the existing ones redundant or found better with less work? Not good solutions . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Depends on if the subclasses are “one only” or build like Secondary Professions were in GW1. Because Secondary Professions in that game were what made it crazy full of potential builds.

The discussion on subclasses has centered around them being special versions of existing classes, not the GW1 system of multiclassing. More like “advanced” professions that you would unlock for each class.

As for DarkWasp’s posts, you can just click his name and go to “See all messages” or whatever. Just scroll down a little bit and you’ll see it.

Here is my impression, took a long break of 8 months and came back. Huh nothing has changed. Yeah there are some improvements, but overall the world and my character is the same as has always been. The Living story is a great idea, but many missed some really cool events and can’t go back to see them. So for those of us who missed out nothing it didn’t really happen. As for gear changes, it is like making it to the top of a hill and then seeing a mountain you have to climb to make ascended gear and really for what? +5 to one stat. It really isn’t worth the effort, only something to spend tons of time on a hamster wheel to nowhere.
Overall I like the thought of horizontal progression over vertical, but when you are playing a game it leaves you with the feeling of you’ve gained or achieved nothing.

Lastly I find the game still has some really big balance issues. Certain builds are the only builds that work. Certain sigils and runes are the only ones useful while others are useless and forgotton. I would like to see more everything brought into line so people can use whichever runes/sigils they want and still feel equal to others.
Perfect example I can think of is sigil of bloodlust versus sigil of Sanctuary.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Any or all of those could render guild banners pointless, and irrelevant. I would
suggest when pitching new mechanics to avoid stepping on the toes of other features which exist . . . it’s more likely to be seen positively.

For seeing what I’m getting at? A guild with properly stocked banners can share almost all the effects listed under the housing benefits you offered. And the “food” ones can be shared with the banquet-style creations, so what we’ve got suggested would render the banquet items and guild banners less useful.

And there are also the guild buffs which can be bought, one of which I think is reduced waypoint costs. So . . .

I mean, these are not BAD ideas, but they’re already in here and making the existing ones redundant or found better with less work? Not good solutions . . .

How do those step on the toes of guild banners or banquet items? That’s like saying the account-wide achievement bonuses step on the toes of guild banners. These would be buffs in addition to banners. Food duration buffs would work on banquet items as well, making them last longer than if you didn’t have the buff. It wouldn’t step on the toes of any existing features.

Cliff.8679:

The discussion on subclasses has centered around them being special versions of existing classes, not the GW1 system of multiclassing. More like “advanced” professions that you would unlock for each class.

Actually what a lot of people seem to be thinking of is “Prestige Classes” a la D&D 3.0. I should note these were incredibly nice in some instances but were prone to being used to min/max characters capable of things which could break the game completely unless clamped down on HARD by the GM.

What I’d like to see is something akin to a more recent incarnation of D&D: “Paragon Paths”, that is, you know what you want as you approach it and you’re picking something which meshes into the character.

And what I’d really like to see is a form of the Secondary Profession system which doesn’t break the Primary Profession by being more useful than the base, and isn’t neutered into being pointless.

How else to put this . . .

What I would really really want out of this system being proposed is for my style of play to be enriched without necessarily causing me to lose options. I wouldn’t forsake being a Druid ranger if I picked the Beastmaster path, for instance. Or if I wanted to follow a Sentinel path with my warrior because I want the defense but the Lieutenant’s is more useful for guild outings . . . while I might want Herald’s for WvW . . .

You get the point? I want them as options to enrich, not definitions of what I can’t have.

Cliff.8679:

How do those step on the toes of guild banners or banquet items? That’s like saying the account-wide achievement bonuses step on the toes of guild banners. These would be buffs in addition to banners. Food duration buffs would work on banquet items as well, making them last longer than if you didn’t have the buff. It wouldn’t step on the toes of any existing features.

Which account-wide achievement bonuses? Luck? They specifically overhauled Magic Find so there were only limited sources of it, with Guild Banners being one of the easier to get. (Stand at LA bank for a little bit, collect banner, move on.)

Here’s how it steps on the toes of guild banners and such . . . with a simple question:

“Why would I bother being in a guild for the boosts if I can get the same boosts off my home?”

“Why would I go through the expense of making a banquet item if I can just get it off my home? And if I can do it so can other people, they’re just being lazy not doing it.”