Guild Wars 2

@Darkwasp – I’m reading through your five page post right now, it’ll be a while.

@All – Apologies for seeming adversarial, but I find thinking about poking holes in things can allow people to rethink something or they can explain it further to close up holes. It’s a technique I picked up during high school on engineering projects. “Don’t be afraid to question someone else’s design, or throw out your own.”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Actually what a lot of people seem to be thinking of is “Prestige Classes” a la D&D 3.0. I should note these were incredibly nice in some instances but were prone to being used to min/max characters capable of things which could break the game completely unless clamped down on HARD by the GM.

What I’d like to see is something akin to a more recent incarnation of D&D: “Paragon Paths”, that is, you know what you want as you approach it and you’re picking something which meshes into the character.

And what I’d really like to see is a form of the Secondary Profession system which doesn’t break the Primary Profession by being more useful than the base, and isn’t neutered into being pointless.

How else to put this . . .

What I would really really want out of this system being proposed is for my style of play to be enriched without necessarily causing me to lose options. I wouldn’t forsake being a Druid ranger if I picked the Beastmaster path, for instance. Or if I wanted to follow a Sentinel path with my warrior because I want the defense but the Lieutenant’s is more useful for guild outings . . . while I might want Herald’s for WvW . . .

You get the point? I want them as options to enrich, not definitions of what I can’t have.

Yeah, Prestige Classes is a good way to describe it. Anyway, it’s like I said: nothing about what you just proposed seems necessary to me and can be done entirely without the need for subclasses. Why does being a Druid have to exist if all it is defined by is the Beastmaster path? Sentinel for Defense, Lieutenant for guild outings, what do these add to the game? Is “Sentinel” just a fancy way of describing a particular defensive warrior build?

I’m not saying a subclass system is impossible, but I haven’t seen a single argument for them in this entire thread so far that makes them seem worth the trouble of implementing when any benefit they would give comes from the addition of new weapons, traits, skills, armors, etc. I think we should be focusing on fun horizontal progression systems that result in attaining these things for our characters rather than trying to figure out how all these would fit into some subclass system. I like the idea of the more personal story-style missions combined with some new open world content for attaining these.

Also, it’s a small thing, but I have a special fondness for Maat from Final Fantasy XI. In Final Fantasy XI, you actually had to do a series of quests for an old man named Maat when you got to be higher level, and each one would raise your level cap by 5. The final quest, which would unlock the full level cap for your character, was actually a duel against the old man himself. Whatever class you were, he took on that profession in the battle. It could be a pretty rough fight, and it was always fun announcing to your guild that you were about to take him on. I think this kind of thing would work well for what we’re talking about here. Not to raise our level caps of course, but to obtain a new skill or something for our characters. Perhaps Nike mentioned something like this in his “New Masters” thing I keep seeing thrown around that I need to sit down and check out, though!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Which account-wide achievement bonuses? Luck? They specifically overhauled Magic Find so there were only limited sources of it, with Guild Banners being one of the easier to get. (Stand at LA bank for a little bit, collect banner, move on.)

Here’s how it steps on the toes of guild banners and such . . . with a simple question:

“Why would I bother being in a guild for the boosts if I can get the same boosts off my home?”

“Why would I go through the expense of making a banquet item if I can just get it off my home? And if I can do it so can other people, they’re just being lazy not doing it.”

The achievement bonuses. Exp Gain, Karma Gain, Magic Find, and Gold Find. Luck is one way to raise Magic Find, but you also get bonuses to all those from your achievement score. There are guild banners for all of those, so how do the account-wide achievement bonuses get in the way?

I think you’re misunderstanding my point: whatever bonuses that I’m proposing come from the housing system would stack with existing bonuses. So getting a bonus that increases the duration of your food buffs? That would mean any food you eat, including banquets, last longer than normal. A bonus that increases magic find? Added to your account magic find bonus, which a magic find booster and magic find banner can also increase.

I liked the idea that suggested that Sub-Classes be mostly cosmetic and/or take advantage of some lesser used traits and skills, without locking anything out. Ex) The Mesmer subclasses unlocked different colored Illusions or skill animations, but still had access to all the Mesmer skills, Traits, and weapons.

Perhaps we could go that way, but also had small buffs depending on the Sub-Class. Ex) The Berserker Mesmer subclass might have Red/Black Illusions and gain +10 to Power and Crit Chance, but lose -10 to Vitality and Toughness. (Just an idea, not real numbers). Her #1 Scepter attack could appear to fire illusory daggers as opposed to the Orbs. This would allow people to both gain and lose something based on the Sub-Class that they chose, without making the Sub-Class better than the Main Class.

Cliff.8679:

Yeah, Prestige Classes is a good way to describe it. Anyway, it’s like I said: nothing about what you just proposed seems necessary to me and can be done entirely without the need for subclasses. Why does being a Druid have to exist if all it is defined by is the Beastmaster path? Sentinel for Defense, Lieutenant for guild outings, what do these add to the game? Is “Sentinel” just a fancy way of describing a particular defensive warrior build?

Naming the subclasses by what it seems everyone else was – the original names of armor Insignias from GW1. Druid being one type of ranger armor, Beastmaster another, while Sentinel/Lieutenant was for Warriors. Apologies but they are also functioning as placeholders for anything more substantial.

The point of that illustration was that I wouldn’t be locked in, but still have the freedom to move. Everyone who played GW1 remembers the Secondary Professions and how you could semi-freely switch between them. A proposal I would present would request that ‘tradition’ be honored – by accepting one path of a subclass you still have the option of others.

I’m not saying a subclass system is impossible, but I haven’t seen a single argument for them in this entire thread so far that makes them seem worth the trouble of implementing when any benefit they would give comes from the addition of new weapons, traits, skills, armors, etc.

I think it’s about the journey. They want these new additions to have a meaning more than “oh that’s cool, let me just go grind mindlessly for them”. They’d rather work for it in a means which would be something like a long quest for a Rat Tail rather than grinding X Rat Tails before they get the cool extras for their classes.

(Yes, that’s a FF reference.)

I think we should be focusing on fun horizontal progression systems that result in attaining these things for our characters rather than trying to figure out how all these would fit into some subclass system. I like the idea of the more personal story-style missions combined with some new open world content for attaining these.

I suspect the subclass system is being passed around since it seems to be something already having been brainstormed by the developers as a possibility. As opposed to a bunch of individual things which do not connect and have no relation to each other aside from “here, have some new events”.

Also, it’s a small thing, but I have a special fondness for Maat from Final Fantasy XI. In Final Fantasy XI, you actually had to do a series of quests for an old man named Maat when you got to be higher level, and each one would raise your level cap by 5. The final quest, which would unlock the full level cap for your character, was actually a duel against the old man himself. Whatever class you were, he took on that profession in the battle. It could be a pretty rough fight, and it was always fun announcing to your guild that you were about to take him on. I think this kind of thing would work well for what we’re talking about here. Not to raise our level caps of course, but to obtain a new skill or something for our characters.

Do me a favor. Go to the Guild Wars 1 wiki and look up “Augury Rock (mission)” then the “Attribute Missions”. These are close to what you suggest and existed before. What people want seems to be a translation of the FEEL of the whole Crystal Desert mission chain: Passing ordeals set by a ghostly guide until you fight a doppleganger using your exact skill list to Ascend and unlock specific options such as to alter your secondary profession and accumulate more “attribute points” (think an extra 30 Trait Points to get how it would be a big deal).

Again, I think we are all romanticizing the original game.

A often-less-than-a-minute long fight against our doppelgänger in GW1 is not evidence that we need a massive overhaul of GW2 in the form of subclasses.

Furthermore, extra trait points is not horizontal progression. Somebody get Nike on the phone so he can tell us about the Plains Wurm. ;-)

timmyf.1490:

Again, I think we are all romanticizing the original game.

A often-less-than-a-minute long fight against our doppelgänger in GW1 is not evidence that we need a massive overhaul of GW2 in the form of subclasses.

Furthermore, extra trait points is not horizontal progression. Somebody get Nike on the phone so he can tell us about the Plains Wurm. ;-)

Dear neighbor,

Nobody said it had to be the same. Nobody is saying it has to be extra trait points or otherwise vertical lift in power level. The talk about this, as far as I have been contributing, is about broadening options to complement what people already are doing.

And honestly, right now this game could do far worse than taking cues from the previous game.

Very true! I’ve just not seen a subclass proposal yet which adds substantial horizontal progression without adding extra grind or power creep that adds to the game in a way the current systems cannot support.

timmyf.1490:

Very true! I’ve just not seen a subclass proposal yet which adds substantial horizontal progression without adding extra grind or power creep that adds to the game in a way the current systems cannot support.

Pretty much how I’ve been approaching it is as a framing system for potential new trait masteries or skill unlocks meant to give the classes ways to get away from “cookie_cutter_warrior_012” and such. And to make it more memorable and impactful on players, the idea was to give it something to attach to other than “grind to do X things, congratulations here’s your new skills”.

timmyf.1490:

Furthermore, extra trait points is not horizontal progression. Somebody get Nike on the phone so he can tell us about the Plains Wurm. ;-)

Actually the plains-wurms have filed a complaint with Support (they are apparently better typists than I would have given the credit for…) – they feel they are being unfairly griefed by 80th level players murdering them en masse while other players stand around with stop-watches. Can’t say I blame them .

Cliff.8679:

Perhaps Nike mentioned something like this in his “New Masters” thing I keep seeing thrown around that I need to sit down and check out, though!

The New Masters was an attempt to bundle up a couple of different ideas into a working release. Follow the link. Its a bit of a read, but I hope you’ll find it inspiring. (And yes, I can describe what all of those skills mentioned in the post would do in general terms )

I’d also mention this post by Chuggs as having both an excellent summary of the concept and some intriguing ideas for expanding on the framework – both in terms of stages of progress and added value after the core mechanical goodies are unlocked.

Nike.2631:

Cliff.8679:

Perhaps Nike mentioned something like this in his “New Masters” thing I keep seeing thrown around that I need to sit down and check out, though!

The New Masters was an attempt to bundle up a couple of different ideas into a working release. Follow the link. Its a bit of a read, but I hope you’ll find it inspiring. (And yes, I can describe what all of those skills mentioned in the post would do in general terms )

I’d also mention this post by Chuggs as having both an excellent summary of the concept and some intriguing ideas for expanding on the framework – both in terms of stages of progress and added value after the core mechanical goodies are unlocked.

Interesting, but there is one concern.

I’d almost like to see less of letting player classes pick up other weapons not normally available to their classes and more of just expanding on the uses of weapons which are already there.

If we’re going to talk horizontal progression, may we talk about Team Fortress 2 and how the horizontal progression there works? (The vertical progression there is, of course, those hats. That’s where the real power comes from!) You see a pyro with a basic flamethrower and know they have the ability to either roast you short-range or airblast you to knock you back. If there was a third ability they could alternate in, suddenly every pyro with a flamethrower you have no idea what you’re getting. They solved this by making the horizontal progression other weapons with very distinct appearances. A flamethrower which works better as a flamethrower but at the cost of airblast capability. Or one that does something else for a different tradeoff . . . but they all are distinctly visible and you can clearly tell what they have . . . and thus what they can do.

This is where my concern lies.

Part of the . . . shall we say, cerebral bit of any Player-vs-Player encounter (WvW or sPvP) is seeing “Oh that person is a thief and is holding daggers, so that means they can use these particular skills” or “I need to watch out for that hammer warrior’s knockdowns or launches”. It’s in a glance knowing what your opponent has with him and how he can use it. It’s knowing that despite what you can see you know there’s an alternate weapon set they might be using from what’s available.

The New Masters’ options would mean you have no idea if that Engineer has the expanded mastery unlocked and you aren’t facing a standard set of options. It means having absolutely no idea what that thief can do with the dagger until the Extra Skill is dropped on you.

It could give build diversity, but at the cost of this very quick, at-a-glance awareness in PvP situations.

HORIZONTAL SPECIALIZATION – ARCHETYPES

((DISCLAMER: I do not feel this is necessary or even advisable. This is simply my best attempt to satisfy the impulse without wrecking what I feel is already an elegant and robust system of player-directed build creation.))

Players may acquire alternate choices for their 5th Trait line.

At its most basic level, nothing changes – all existing characters are in an Archtype now:

Elementalist – Arcanist – 5th Trait Line: Arcana (Boon Duration/Attunement Recharge)
Engineer – Experimenter – 5th Trait Line: Tools (Crit Damage/Tool Belt Recharge)
Guardian – Paragon – 5th Trait Line: Virtues (Boon Duration/Virtue Recharge)
Ranger – Beastmaster – 5th Trait Line: Beastmastery (Healing Power/Pet Attributes)
Mesmer – Illusionist – 5th Trait Line: Illusions (Condition Damage /Shred Recharge)
Necromancer – Reaper – 5th Trait Line: Soul Reaping (Crit Damage/Life Force Pool)
Thief – Trickster – 5th Trait Line: Trickery (Condition Damage /Steal Recharge)
Warrior – Myrmidon – 5th Trait Line: Discipline (Crit Damage/Burst Recharge)

However, new Archetypes can be made available (see pages of journeys discussion ), with visiting a class trainer allowing you to switch between those you have available. These would swap out the entire 5th trait line. They could also include alterations to the class mechanic – A new “Packmaster Archetype (Character & Pet Speed) for Rangers could have 3 slightly weaker pets on the field simultaneously, but have a more limited selection of pets to choose from (“Get them, my flock of Moas!!). Alternatively Rangers could access a “Lone Stalker” Archetype (Stealth Duration) that has No Access to pets whatsoever, but has passive benefits that offset this. The attribute bonuses for the fifth line would be adjusted, replacing the “bonus to pet stats” with benefits tuned for the altered class mechanic or new theme.

These two mechanics (multi-pets and zero pets) would obviously conflict if they could be taken simultaneously, but the limitation on choosing a single archetype at any given time prevents the conflict. In the same vein a “Technique” trait within the Packmaster Archetype trait line could change the skills gained form main-hand Axe (buttons 1-3) into new effects suited to the Packmaster playstyle while the Lone Stalker could offer a different axe “Technique” Trait that changed those same buttons to something else. Again, conflict avoided because of mutually exclusive pools of traits being attached to each Archetypes line.

Some classes would need existing traits shuffled into or out of their fifth line. This could be a good thing: I personally feel a substantial part of the problem with my enjoyment of my Ranger is that the pet is entangled in way too many traits scattered across way too many lines. A warrior can largely ignore their class mechanic and still function. Rangers can’t get away from that kitten dog/spider/jellyfish/whatever .

One advantaged of swapping out an entire trait line is that it doesn’t have to wait until level 80. Archetypes could be introduced at almost any point. The selection of a 5th Trait line has impact and meaning as early as level 11.

And again, I can see ways to do ALL of that through more ambitious and daring use of the current Trait system (requiring chiefly the ability for selecting a technique trait to block conflicting techniques from being selected until the first technique has been deselected). I also expect frustration that parts of the separate Archetype trait pools would be made incompatible not because they represent irresolvable mechanical conflicts, but because someone decided where to put them based on themes that any particular player may not share, understand, or agree with. I would much prefer to maximize the flexibility of any new traits and the best way to do that is to distribute them within the lines we have now.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Interesting, but there is one concern.

I’d almost like to see less of letting player classes pick up other weapons not normally available to their classes and more of just expanding on the uses of weapons which are already there.

This has been hashed out somewhat in quite a few posts early on in this thread. I can probably find some links, but I don’t have the focus just now (getting late here ). I suspect its in the first ten pages. You might use your browser to search for the word “technique” as that’s how I was describing managing such functionality through Traits, but a number of other methods were also discussed.

The New Masters’ options would mean you have no idea if that Engineer has the expanded mastery unlocked and you aren’t facing a standard set of options. It means having absolutely no idea what that thief can do with the dagger until the Extra Skill is dropped on you.

It could give build diversity, but at the cost of this very quick, at-a-glance awareness in PvP situations.

To be completely honest, my opinion is screw ‘em. Let them find out what I’m capable of when I do it. To me uncertainty adds far more to the pulse-pounding nature of PvP than being able to deduce 7/10th of my build at the edge of draw distance. And if anything it reduces the (unfair) advantage Asuras have, since you can hardly see their weapons anyway…

Nike.2631:

To be completely honest, my opinion is screw ‘em. Let them find out what I’m capable of when I do it. To me uncertainty adds far more to the pulse-pounding nature of PvP than being able to deduce 7/10th of my build at the edge of draw distance. And if anything it reduces the (unfair) advantage Asuras have, since you can hardly see their weapons anyway…

Well, I should throw the disclaimer down: I’m not big on the PvP scene but that’s the thing. There’s an elegance to knowing what the other side is capable of without knowing exactly what they will be able to do. I know that seems like a convoluted phrasing but trust me, think about it.

I see this male human in light armor, and I know he can be only so many classes he can be (plus the few racial skills). I get closer and see a dagger so I know they’re not a mesmer, so I don’t need to worry about clones and stealth. Once he drops his first skill I find out he’s an elementalist so I now know roughly what weapon skills they can throw with a dagger and how to engage. I don’t know what utilities he has loaded unless they’re signets, which I can see the passive effects for. But throw in an extra skill which I can’t know whether or not he can use, and this is an elementalist so there’s likely four different skills . . . well suddenly there’s the need to be aware those skills might possibly be coming.

I like the concept of new skills being open as weapon skills, but I worry about the effect outside of PvE. Something which I was thinking about cruising commentaries about various other games and ease of play factors.

The other side of the concern is probably more unfair to the developers considering some things said here: If there are to be new skills/abilities, it must be assumed the developers will have to balance the new additions being available for WvW as well as PvE even if they never reach sPvP. If they’re not balanced properly, it could tilt the metagame in such a way it “requires” people to go out of their way to get these skills/abilities just to stay competitive. If they’re balanced too precisely, it might be determined they’re “useless” for PvE play and thus might as well not exist.

Edit: Should note there’s been things like this in games I’ve played before. Certain potential actions which kind of defined whole periods of play and still are something to look out for. Though not as broken as some others . . . the fact these things exist at all? In some cases they’re almost considered indispensible

ColinJohanson.2394:

-snip-
I think the biggest thing I was trying to get at with my question is: what should the journey towards an alternative system of horizontal progression really be like?

-snip-

Say for example, we decided to allow your profession to gain an additional mastery as Nike and Chuggs in particular discussed above. I think we have a lot of fun ideas in here for the journey unlock specific aspects of that mastery, but what if you first had to unlock the core “mastery” track, which then allowed you collect the smaller components? What kind of experience do you think would be compelling here as an over-all journey?

Some of the ideas I’ve really enjoyed so far from this thread include ->

• Additional story lines with your orders that allow you complete or unlock new masteries/abilities.

• Adding new content to the existing maps (or re-using existing moments) that serves the purpose of being a bit like skill challenges, content on demand that allows you to overcome challenges to allow you unlock various abilities/masteries.

-snip-

The acquisition of this is a perfect example where the “Personal quest arcs” I was talking about here really can work out.
The skill trainers from the other post of mine could also work out, but aren’t as adventurous and epic.

It’s not really outside the box for the MMORPG genre, but it’s sadly a bit outside the box for GW2.

Again, as I mentioned earlier, epic quests are important and GW2 lacks them entirely. They shouldn’t be used like in WoW where you get quests thrown at you from every single person, but rather like in EverQuest where they are pretty scarce but actually mean something.
So used in moderation and with good storytelling, bring back the traditional quests chains and make them epic.

Major bonus points for working in Rooba and C.L.E.A.N. . I strongly approve of building on our existing lore through these new journeys.

I think both Halloween events have shown ways “questing” can be delivered with a GW2 twist. Some of that tracking is managed through Achievements, and a few achievement points along the way is probably a plus.

one thing that occurred to me when I mentioned buying an unlock code with real money was that the code would only give you the skills/traits/weapon access but the titles, skins and other non-mechanical recognition associated with each mastery would still require playing the content.

I think we also need to consider something very important that hasn’t come up (that I saw)…

What about Alts?

Once I unlock a Mastery for my Guardian, do I have to repeat that journey on all of my Guardian alts before they can benefit? Because that throws up big “GRIND INCOMING!” warning lights and claxons in my mind.

I had hoped/expected/envisioned that advancing my Renown in an Order would be a shared process for all of my characters in that Order. I hope something similar can be done for class-based progressions.

ColinJohanson.2394:

The event idea is an interesting one, but it doesn’t feel like a “grand journey” so to speak. Do you feel like if we asked you to do 90 different events in a month, and that allowed your ranger to say become a Druid, you’d feel like that was a cool system?

(Note I will be Using the Ranger in all my example as I have been using this whole thread. Colin may have intentionally or not, mentioned the Ranger and Druid, because the GW1 LORE already has an example for how humans became Druids, and many of them had to be Rangers at some point in their lives.. That lore from Gw1 can be expanded and put into this game as a way to tell the story for how Rangers can become Druids.
Also, I am using some examples already shown on this thread and integrating it into mine, but I won’t be mentioning any specifically)

You want a Grand Journey? Well, I think I may have just the thing. While many replies of the last few pages have been skirting around the issue, none of them have really addressed how unlocking new skills or a full on subclass can be a Pilgrimage to Enlightenment!

Yes, that sounds somewhat religious in nature, but that’s what I want to base my example off of. Just like how millions of people make a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their lifetimes, or how people will sit under a tree meditating for decades on a spiritual journey to achieve a greater understanding about themself and the world around them. Players in Guild Wars can also make the pilgrimage to gain a better understanding about the character they play, the choices they made, their profession, and how they fit into the Lore of the world, all the while earning awesome new skills and equipment skins to show off after completing the journey.

Well, that’s alot, so I better start Organizing this, so that way everyone can understand what I mean….

Contents
(1) – What does a Subclass Mean?
(2) – How do they Get there? (The Journey/Pilgrimage)
(3) – What happens when they Get there?
(4) – Later on……

Conclusion
Something like that (its only a very rushed example), with the new content, the 3 skills, weapon, and 3 traits. I would be perfectly okay with getting something like that once a year or two. Because while the most hardcore of us could do it in less than a week. It is for everyone else a longterm journey comparable to the journey you took when you first created your character to go from level 1 to 80.

Edit : There is No subclass switching in this idea, nor are you forced to pick Druid or Sniper. Whith this Idea, not only can you be a Ranger/Druid, You can be a Ranger/Druid/Sniper. Be All three at once. The Sub-Class itself is just a title that you recieve after unlocking everything for that subclass (weapon, skills, traits). In this Way, Subclasses are only a Vehicle in which to unlock new Skills, Weapons, Traits, etc. and Increase Build Diversity all around without forcing people to pick percieved bonuses from one Sub-Class over another.

DiogoSilva.7089:

CONCEPT FOR OPEN-WORLD MINI-SCENARIOS

The teams that would complete specific and long challenging dynamic event chains would unlock access to unique mini-dungeons, with some interesting stories, scenarios and challenges behind them, all leading to a mini-story conclusion and a flavored reward to those players. The reward could be anything, including a new subclass tier, or mastery, or something.

Unlocking an open-world mini-dungeon would be map-wide, a message would automatically be generated in the chat warning players about it, and everyone could join and get the “normal reward”, but only the teams that have participated in the specific events that lead to them (and have met a specific condition) would be allowed to get the unique “mastery” reward, and a ray of light would shine upon them for all other players to see. Another message would automatically be generated in the map, this time announcing the players who have advanced through a mastery, and all other players in the map would be like “wow, how did you get your name in the chat? What did you do to get that mastery? I want to get it too!”

The dynamic events leading to those unique open-world scenarios (let’s call it that) would work as discussed: they would either start automatically from time to time, or start on demand if the player has met a specific condition. However, even though they could be started on demand, they wouldn’t be easy, with a high chance of failure for the unprepared, making them more special.

And finally, for a player to meet the specific condition to start those events on demand (and thus to get the “unique” reward from the end of the mini-scenario later unlocked) could be received from the also-discussed Orders quest system, or something.

There you have it, I proposed a new idea (mini-dungeons/ scenarios unlocked from events) and fused this concept with the two other ideas the community has been discussing (unique on-demand events and orders quests).

I think this kind of content would work perfectly as new guild mission content.
A guild start the new guild mission type —> the dynamic guild-mission event is leading to the open- world scenarios. If the guild finish this guild mission, the hole community get access to the content, which is linked to the guild mission end succesfully.

In the moment, when the guild manages the “pre mission” successfully, the whole world gets the message, that Guild X made it, and Special Content Y starts in Z minutes.

This could be something like open-world mini-dungeons, but also things like Tequatl 2.0, who would fit perfectly. The guild, who started the guild mission gets special rewards a: for the succesfull “pre mission” and b: for coordinating the community and defeating Tequatl (or content like this). All other players would get the normal Tequatl reward. Karka Queen could be also one of these.

I think this would help to get player coordinate this type of content much easier, and it would have a much deeper impact, because Tequatl etc. would not arrive automaticly every 2 hours, but the players themselves could trigger the encounter by doing the guild mission!

Chrispy.5641:

• 1 New Weapon
• 3 New Skills (Utility, Healing, Elite, etc.)
• 2 New Traits
• 1 forced trait and 1 replacement for it
• 1 Addition to Class Mechanic (if not tied to weapons)
• No Level 80 requirement, forced Specialization, pigeonholing, shoehorning, or anything else.

I really like your idea, I have tweaked it a bit (bolded ones). Your sniper archetype got me thinking; if I were to switch my Ranger/Ranger to the Ranger/Sniper archetype it makes sense that I would always have Eagle Eye. So basically the act of switching to Ranger/Sniper would:

1. Remove Eagle Eye from my traits options and place it at the top of the traits window as a permanent/forced trait. Snipers will always have the range/damage bonus.
2. The trait that used to be Eagle Eye would be replaced with something that would make sense to a sniper (e.g. “X: Steady Shot – Attacking from out of combat does 50% more damage”) that the player can choose (if they choose to) in its stead.

The Ranger/Tamer (or whatever) would be forced into Master’s Bond and have some other appropriate trait choice for II instead.

ColinJohanson.2394:

A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

Let’s try.

Assuming current professions/skills state of things.

What about adding a secondary 6-10 skill bar? That could be linked to the advanced profession, and be used like the alt weapon for warriors/guardians/etc.. with a button to switch between normal skill bar or advanced one.

In that advanced bar you would have a heal skill (or it could be a 7-10 bar and force to use the same heal skill for both), 3 utility skills and 9-10 could be Elite skills.

If two elites at once are way overpowered, then only 1 Elite and 1 “Advanced” a new kind of skill limited to the advanced professions.

Advanced professions could be linked to Orders for variety, so each Order could offer 2 or 3 Advanced Paths. To help players to not feel restrained, there should be an option to change your Order (maybe limited). Some of the Advanced Paths could be shared between orders, for example:

Explorer: Whispers or Priory
Assassin: Whispers or Vigil
Defender: Priory or Vigil

Etc…

Each Path can offer:

Exclusive healing skill (or abandoning this idea and use normal heal skill for everything)
Path “Advanced skill selection” (only one in use, like Elite), it would be the 9 slot.
7-8 would be the usual utility skill set by profession.

So with some few different Path skills, there could be some different combos, depending on race/profession/path, without doing it very overpowered against other players. Every path could as specific or generic as desired, and adding new paths should be easier than adding entire professions.

Nike.2631:

Major bonus points for working in Rooba and C.L.E.A.N. . I strongly approve of building on our existing lore through these new journeys.

I think both Halloween events have shown ways “questing” can be delivered with a GW2 twist. Some of that tracking is managed through Achievements, and a few achievement points along the way is probably a plus.

-snip-

I think we also need to consider something very important that hasn’t come up (that I saw)…

What about Alts?

Once I unlock a Mastery for my Guardian, do I have to repeat that journey on all of my Guardian alts before they can benefit? Because that throws up big “GRIND INCOMING!” warning lights and claxons in my mind.

I had hoped/expected/envisioned that advancing my Renown in an Order would be a shared process for all of my characters in that Order. I hope something similar can be done for class-based progressions.

Thanks! :P

And good point.
The achievement system has been used for similar things.
The biggest problem with using the achievement system is that you can’t repeat quests. This would be fixed by either making some achievements (like quests) character bound or by making some rewards (like recipe rewards from quests) infinitely copyable to all characters account wide.
The last part would solve the Alt issue.

But if it’s not repeatable, you can’t make a new character to re-live the story.

So I think it’s better to make a quest system of it’s own that’s is more streamlined. This would probably also make it easier for ANet devs to create the quests.
The quest log could utilize the personal story window to have a quest tab.
Achievements can obviously still be tied to doing quests, but as a reward for doing them rather than a system.

With it’s own system, you could for example fix the alt problem by having a feature that if you have completed the quest once and the character meets the requirements, you can unlock the reward by other means for example currency. This should be limited to certain rewards, like skills and traits and stuff. For getting items and gold etc you should still have to do the quest.

Basically having other ways to complete already completed content without having to redo it unless you want to.
As a side note, it’d be nice to be able to clear world completion by creating a map for a certain price on a completed character and using it on another character to get world completion, all waypoints unlocked, you get your legendary materials etc.

zamalek.2154:

Chrispy.5641:

• 1 New Weapon
• 3 New Skills (Utility, Healing, Elite, etc.)
• 2 New Traits
• 1 forced trait and 1 replacement for it
• 1 Addition to Class Mechanic (if not tied to weapons)
• No Level 80 requirement, forced Specialization, pigeonholing, shoehorning, or anything else.

I really like your idea, I have tweaked it a bit (bolded ones). Your sniper archetype got me thinking; if I were to switch my Ranger/Ranger to the Ranger/Sniper archetype it makes sense that I would always have Eagle Eye. So basically the act of switching to Ranger/Sniper would:

1. Remove Eagle Eye from my traits options and place it at the top of the traits window as a permanent/forced trait. Snipers will always have the range/damage bonus.
2. The trait that used to be Eagle Eye would be replaced with something that would make sense to a sniper (e.g. “X: Steady Shot – Attacking from out of combat does 50% more damage”) that the player can choose (if they choose to) in its stead.

The Ranger/Tamer (or whatever) would be forced into Master’s Bond and have some other appropriate trait choice for II instead.

You know, come to think of it, you could have [your] 3 traits forced and have the player unlock their replacements via the other missions. So 10 missions to unlock the archetype and 30 missions to unlock the replacement traits.

One question, how does the Ranger/Ranger archetype remain relevant (on new characters)? Make it work as any other archetype? Except maybe you don’t have to unlock the traits on it?

Edit: More thinking out loud. Maybe have the Ranger/Ranger (or the Warrior/Warrior, Necro/Necro etc.) have forced traits that give a nice stat boost that are otherwise unavailable (they are not ‘stolen’ from the actual traits like the other archetypes). This means that people would still have incentive to play these core archetypes (instead of them becoming dead content).

I was thinking to not have any Forced Traits. The Sub-Class (Sniper or Druid in this case), is just the Title you recieve after all your Training and hard work to learn those skills/weapons/traits is completed. The Idea of a Sub-Class in this case is not to include Vertical Progression in any way, but to use Sub-Classes as a vehicle of which to unlock other Skills, Traits, Weapons, Pets, Burst Skills, Virtues, etc.

There is no subclass switching with my idea either, Once you unlock a Subclass, you stay that subclass forever, and other Players would come to know that you unlocked all the possible skills/traits and weapons in multiple subclasses just by looking at the symbols next to your name when they click on you. So a Person can not only be a Ranger/Druid (Paw and Leaf in my original idea), but they would be a Ranger/Druid/Sniper (Paw, Leaf, and Crosshair) in my idea.(I typed everything kind of fast, so it might not be very clear in my original post)

The Idea is to eventually become everything that you can in the limits of a profession and raise the level of your profession to its maximum possible potential

And it would be nice to have an automatic perk/bonus once you unlock those subclasses, but I left that out on purpose in an attempt to keep everything as even as possible between those that unlocked the extra skills and weapon, and those that did not. (Trust me, I had to restrain myself, because I do like the idea of a subclass having a vertical bonus of some kind instead of being mostly cosmetic)

BUT!!!! It would be nice if it only worked in PvE (and not WvW) if say for example :::

• Unlock everything in the Druid Subclass, and gain the Druid Title, Your Healing increases by 5% permanently.
• Unlock everything in the Sniper Subclass, and gain the Sniper Title, Permanently increase the range of all your skills by 5%.
• Unlock everything in the Warden Subclass, and gain the Warden Title, you get a Permanent Bonus to Dodging which remove the Immobilize Condition with a cooldown(so you can’t double dodge and escape immobilize twice in a row).
• Unlock everything in the Scout Subclass, and gain the Scout Title, gain a permanent 5% speed boost.

Even that would come with downsides though because people in Dungeons and High End PvE content wouldn’t want to invite you unless you fully unlocked all the subclasses so they know you have all the bonuses. Thats the Downside, and the reason why I didn’t want to include it…

It is a nice thought, but that’s going into the realm of Vertical Progression, which this Thread is not about.

A few ideas go into having missions but don’t suggest much about what those missions would be. Here are some missions concepts that explore the idea of having synergistic or freeform missions, that is, missions that play into each other. You may be given an ultimate task of e.g. “Craft a training shortbow” but that would involve multiple missions that you can do in any order you like (and in cases like the crafting, you can choose where to do them).

Chrispy.5641:

Even that would come with downsides though because people in Dungeons and High End PvE content wouldn’t want to invite you unless you fully unlocked all the subclasses so they know you have all the bonuses.

This is ideation, ideas with downsides are still important because they could lead to other ideas – which is why I am throwing whatever comes to mind on the thread even if I am not entirely sure that it’s a good idea (exactly how your idea gave me an idea, which in turn may give someone else an idea and so forth). The likelyhood of anything one of us suggest actually being put into the game word-for-word is remote; what we are doing here is giving Colin and his team food for thought.

zamalek.2154:

Chrispy.5641:

Even that would come with downsides though because people in Dungeons and High End PvE content wouldn’t want to invite you unless you fully unlocked all the subclasses so they know you have all the bonuses.

This is ideation, ideas with downsides are still important because they could lead to other ideas – which is why I am throwing whatever comes to mind on the thread even if I am not entirely sure that it’s a good idea (exactly how your idea gave me an idea, which in turn may give someone else an idea and so forth). The likelyhood of anything one of us suggest actually being put into the game word-for-word is remote; what we are doing here is giving Colin and his team food for thought.

I understand that, and I do have a habit of pointing out negatives in just about everything, but, it is still good to think of the negatives. Its even better to think of ways to fix those negatives!

I’ve seen some people write about how waypoints – while convenient – remove a bit of the feeling of discovery (I agree on both).

Maybe those missions -while set in the open world – could add special conditions only noticeable by the character who’s playing it, to make them more dangerous. Such as .. deactivate all waypoints from the zone! Then, you start at one end and your objective is at the other end, like in a cave with nasty things surrounded by lava and only accessible by a small bridge.

Actually: besides using it in missions, it would be cool to have a ‘deactivate all waypoints’ zone challenge mode. That would be on a per-character basis, and it adds something to do in every zone, like a GW2 take on Vanquishing.

When it comes to the idea of subclasses, “advanced professions”, and the like, my suggestion (which I’ve espoused a few times) is the following:

Treat it as a key, not a lock.

Subclasses are a great idea for coming up with themes for new skills and traits, and for coming up with a story that links them. Consider the oft-mentioned idea of a druid subclass for the ranger, for instance. From that theme, you can come up with a set of skills and traits that support that theme (caster weapons with nature-magic-esque skills and traits that support them, for instance) and a story that fits with the theme (a journey of discovery into the culture and magic of the Maguuma druids) along which the player can unlock the new abilities associated with that theme. Similar journeys of discovery could go into Elonian lore for elementalists to be able to become dervishes, or into Cantha for necromancers to be able to learn the secrets of ritualism, just to use a couple of examples – Tyria has loads of cultures and old and new lore that could be drawn on for new themes.

Once unlocked, though, I think the new skills and traits should be able to be chosen using the existing system (or an improved version therof) rather than forcing someone to commit to a specific theme. If the hypothetical ranger wanted to become a full-on druid, that should be their choice. If they just wanted to incorporate a little of their new learnings into their old way of doing things, or mix what they’ve learned from the legacy of the druids with the teachings of the kodan wardens they stayed with last Season of the Colossus, they should be able to do so.

Obviously, there will still be compromises to be made, and some choices will necessarily block out others (an elementalist wielding a scythe would be hard-pressed to be anything but a dervish, for example, while another elementalist that chooses to follow the zephyrite Aspects of Sun, Wind, Lightning and Rain* would have to discard the traditional elements to do so) – however, I think the game should leave as much room open for people to find their own mixes and ways of doing things rather than pigeonholing them into specific categories.

The themes should be a key, providing inspiration for the development team to come up with a set of related skills and traits and a story for how characters can acquire them – not a lock forcing people to only play characters that have been “approved” by the creation of a suitable subclass. Ther’d be no point at which there’s a mechanic where you expressly choose a subclass – instead, you can choose for yourself through choices of skills, utilities and traits how closely you align with a theme. I certainly don’t want to see subclass changes as being another way for people who like experimenting with new builds to be nickeled and dimed and discouraged from doing what they find to be fun.

(On this, I think I’m in consensus with Chrispy and Tobias – I typed this up before reaching their posts on the last page)

*Yes, I made this up just to make the number… but it seems logical that they might include something like Rain in their aspects given the other three. As for how to introduce it – simplest way would probably to make one weapon that represents the Zephyrites in some fashion, and equipping that weapon automatically changes your attunements and linked traits. Believe me, I’d love an opportunity to play a Zephyrite-inspired character, although the mobility would probably need to be toned down substantially…

On order skills:

I’d really prefer not to see skills locked behind orders – or at least, not permanently. For new players, that would raise the spectre of forcing the player to choose between what they want mechanically and what they want for roleplaying reasons, and philosophically I don’t think that’s a choice player’s should be made to make unless it’s deliberately intended as a Faustian compromise of virtue for power. Worse, for established players that have already committed to an order, it’d really suck to have the ideal skill go to a different order, particularly if your original order choice had come close to being a mental coin flip to begin with (as was the case for one of mine – one of my Vigil characters was literally chosen between that and the Priory based on HQ location, which is no longer a significant issue since we can now use the portal of any HQ to get to Fort Trinity).

I could certainly see some being easier for members of one order or another, but I’d rather not see skill access be gated behind something that many people would have decided on over a year ago, particularly for their mains.

On Nike’s thoughts regarding paying for skills or unlocking them through story: That was actually done in GW1 – you could pay for skill unlock packs (primarily beneficial for PvP and heroes).

Hearing this discussion about sub-classes formed a few ideas in my head. I’ll admit I haven’t read all the pages of this thread and my idea may accidentally mimic a few other ideas but here we go:

Part 1 – The Problem

I loved Guild Wars 1 secondary professions, they gave me the tools to really change the way my profession played. Rt – Spirit Weapon build, Ele – Shadow step spike, the list goes on and on. However, Guild Wars 2, in my opinion does not lend itself well to cross class. Most of the professions already contain cross-profession characteristics such as the overlap of weapons and their specific rolls for a profession. I think this is where the true cross over meets and can be expanded. A guild Wars 2 build is further diversified by the traits/runes/sigil/utility choices. I think sub-classes could be achieved by diversifying the roll of a weapon through the trait trees. As of right now, Weapons signify a one sided mentality that leaves them devoid of the skill complexity we enjoyed in Guild Wars 1. Thief short bow – condition dmg/mobility, Guardian greatsword – Aoe dmg/melee.

Part 2 – Changes

My idea revolves around the diversification of weapon rolls. I think each trait line should have 2-3 traits that change based on the weapons chosen and these actively change the skills and their effects. By choosing these traits a person can actively change the way their weapon operates and build towards different rolls. In some ways this is already possible on the ele due to their attunement switchs making variety a larger pool. The way I like to think of this is being able to tailor skills on a weapon to meet the needs of a build rather than having have pre-determined rolls based on the weapons 5 skills. Just as an example of the concept, we’ll use the Thief’s Shortbow

If we go down the critical strikes trait line 10 there is a trait that makes it possible to change the auto attack of the shortbow from a bounce to a penetrating shot that goes through multiple targets in a line. If we also go down the Shadow Arts line there is a trait that changes the functionality of the choking gas skill to apply a smoke field rather than a poison field and causes blind. Yet another trait line, could replace cluster bomb with a concussion arrow that explodes with adjacent knock down to a target. Further more another trait farther down the Shadow arts changes the disabling shot from an evasion/cripple to a toxic tipped arrow that inflicts torment.

Suddenly the short-bow is no longer an AoE condition damage/mobility weapon but a control weapon. Further options would be available with several weapon skill swaps or changes available per trait line. Whether these would take up a trait choice or be selectable between choices I’ll leave up to debate :p

Having options like this would alleviate the dependency on weapons to fulfill specific roles and provide some room for overlap (more than one control weapon, giving preference on a profession).

Part 3 – Acquisition

This is a Progression thread and I think these traits could make a great way to further progression and revisit some of the places that were important to players during their personal story.

Guild Wars 1 used quests (sometimes) to acquire skills. In a similar vein Guild Wars 2 would implement the masters of each profession. These masters would be available at each of the headquarters of each Order. The master after induction into their Order would be willing to teach new techniques to our characters (the traits). Acquisition of the traits would follow a set of quest like tasks, each involved with the trait being taught. For example our Thief’s Shortbow replacement for Choking gas, an Aoe shadow field, would involve hunting down an Ash Elemental boss from the peak of Mount Maelstrom and returning its core ( could be instanced or not to avoid griefing). This special boss would involve blinding aoe fields. This would follow the same footsteps the master took in their inspiration to invent their new techniques. Additionally the master would display how to use the trait after the quest is completed. After all the techniques had been acquired on the grand quest of mastery, the player would have to defeat the master whom uses all the techniques taught. Afterwards the player would receive a reward to signify the mastery of their techniques (I suggest a pre-cursor of the profession, but another memento more closely related to the master or the order might be more appropriate. Maybe an Elite Skill + Title :p A-net great chance to introduce some awesome NPC’s with character involved as the masters of each profession. )

So from what you’ve described, Chrispy;

- New skills
- New traits
- New weapons
- Location-specific skill unlocks
- Minidungeons with events in them
- Loredumps
- Fancy titles.

I’m not seeing how this subclass system is more than the sum of its parts, myself, and it seems to ultimately culminate in something similar to the badge next to your name when you get 100% world completion. If new skill releases are tied into the Living World content, then that would be fantastic and cool and excellent because when skills are given grounding in the world, they become that much cooler. I think, though, that a formal system like subclassing would be an unnecessary restriction, and either a system that is quickly neglected or a system that adversely affects the story to fit into it.

draxynnic.3719:

(On this, I think I’m in consensus with Chrispy and Tobias – I typed this up before reaching their posts on the last page)

I am totally in agreement with everything you said in your post, and it is awesome that everyone is starting to come to same general conclusion when it comes to subclasses.

Sarrs.4831:

So from what you’ve described, Chrispy;

- New skills
- New traits
- New weapons
- Location-specific skill unlocks
- Minidungeons with events in them
- Loredumps
- Fancy titles.

I’m not seeing how this subclass system is more than the sum of its parts, myself, and it seems to ultimately culminate in something similar to the badge next to your name when you get 100% world completion. If new skill releases are tied into the Living World content, then that would be fantastic and cool and excellent because when skills are given grounding in the world, they become that much cooler. I think, though, that a formal system like subclassing would be an unnecessary restriction, and either a system that is quickly neglected or a system that adversely affects the story to fit into it.

That’s exactly what I was thinking of it as though…., was as a way to tie everything together in one neat package. Instead of just giving us one skill here, and one skill there, We could get an entire package that has the flavor of being a subclass (but without the traditional MMO restrictions of a subclass), and have some story and Lore to tie into it. There are still some problems with it though, I’ll give it that.

Current state of the “subclass” discussion:

1. Any specialization mechanic, (I’ll use the term “archetype”), needs to affect only those things that the player does not already control. This forbids any gating of or overlapping with the selection of traits, weapons, skills, or upgrade components.
2. The pieces we have come up with that fit this guideline so far are:
   1. Aesthetic theme
   2. F1-4 abilities
   3. Unique attribute (the bottom part of your fifth trait line)
3. Changes to those pieces can easily be bundled together into cohesive and functional archetypes. That doesn’t mean we can’t discuss the possibility of mixing and matching, or leaving one or two of them out altogether.
4. Unlocking an archetype should not be restricted to a single mode of content. PvE and WvW players alike should have access. Using the orders seems popular, although forces players into doing personal story up to a certain mission.
5. The process of unlocking should be mostly done in the open world, using existing lore and possibly character story. The events leading to the unlock should show the story and purpose of the archetype, while also teaching its functionality to the player.
6. Swapping unlocked archetypes should be feasible: either freely like equipment and skills, or at a cost like traits.

Not sure if anyone has brought this up, (And there a probably a tonne of other things already mentioned that are more important) but I think special living story items such as the Zephyr Sanctum Model, Flames of Kryta, ect. should have a collection panel of their own. I think while somewhat trivial in terms of normal gameplay, these items have some potential to influence horizontal progression. I have a feeling many players are tempted to destroy the items at the current state despite sentimental/ horizontal progression values due to the space they clog up. I imagine this would become even more of an issue if more items of this nature are added without the implementation of a collection system for them.

Gulesave.5073:

Current state of the “subclass” discussion:

Those points are a summary of only your suggestion, suggestions (regarding subclasses) I found since Bezagron’s previous summary :

• Septemptus posted about schools
• Chuggs talks about mastery and some unlock options
• Lheimroo suggested using personality traits to derive some form of subclass
• Tobias suggested using the orders as a subclass
• Nike suggests having a switchable trait line
• Nike asks about alts
• Chuggs Grand Journey
• My tweaks to Chuggs ideas

Unlock options:

• Some of the above suggestions involve unlocking as well
• Mikuchan gives 4 ideas and 5 more ideas
• Shiren suggested reusing insignia quests
• DarkWasps housing system
• timmyf’s order missions
• DiogoSilva talks about a new currency
• DiogoSilva’s mini-scenarios (Diogo goes more in-depth )
• adubb suggests making better use of dailies/monthlies
• My synergistic/free-form missions

Sub-classes (sub-professions?) would be ok if and only if they don’t result in specializations for your characters. You all know what would happen… if you were able to specialize into something that made you a better healer or a little better at dealing damage then in no time at all elements of the community will delude themselves into thinking that the specialized players are required for certain content. That would be a plague on the game that may have no cure if released. Please, Colin, keep that in mind if the sub-profession concept takes root and begins to grow like Scarlett’s tower.

Unlocks… you could have some interesting coordination events (think Southsun and the Queen Karka, only smaller scale) to gain access to some unlocks. On a simple scale as an example, imagine if three pillars appeared on a map spaced equidistantly apart at a fairly good distance, each guarded by… something. Maybe running with Colin’s mention of druids they’re guarded by a Champion Druid, or perhaps assorted Champion monsters, whatever. Killing the Champion results in a light shining up from the pillar. If the players on the map kill all three Champions within, say, 15 minutes of each other the lights all converge together at a point in the middle and the pillars are activated to interact with. Players would then have a period of time to interact with all three pillars to get attuned. Attuned players would have access to an open-world mini-dungeon directly beneath the point of convergence. All attuned players would then enter and, just running with an idea for a weapon unlock, find a selection of a few new weapons that their profession currently doesn’t have. For example, my mesmer may find he has a choice of a main-hand pistol, a hammer or a rifle. You’d have to select one of these and would be starting with only skill ‘1’ available. Successfully completing the mini-dungeon (which would scale with the number of people, of course) would result in that weapon being unlocked for your character. Failing would mean you’d have to try again, but at least you’d have the skills unlocked (and familiarity with the weapon now). You could do something similar for weapons, skills perhaps (required to replace all your utility skills with one new one and the other two be inaccessible), masteries, etc.

That’s a potential way we could see some unlocks at least… require groups to work together to gain access then modify the players to have to use and master something new to unlock it in a mini-dungeon type scenario.

The Lost Witch.7601:

So some questions about this skill based currency or skill-gating even perhaps:

• What defines skill?

• Can skill not be bypassed by clever tricks? I know beating Tequatl with a Tequatl slaying guild isn’t particularly skillful for anyone but the organizer.

• What percentage of the playerbase do you imagine can be called ‘skilled’? And how would it feel to not be part of that?

• Can skillful farmers outspeed regular farmers? And by how much? And if there is a perceived gate of how much investment it should take to get a particular thing, will this be off for the slower farmers?

• Will the hardcore players be the most skillful and thereby gain more riches because they don’t have to spend money on things that they can pay for with a skillbased currency? And will this increase the gap between the hardcore and the casual? How will this reflect on the economy?

• And how will the established difference between skilled and not skilled content affect the playerbase psychologically? If you failed at doing something that is apparently not even rewarding the skillcurrency.. what does that make you?

here is my opignon to this question:

Skill is a mix between fast reaction time and the knowledge to make the right decitions at the right time.

It actually can’t because tentaqul isn’t a test of your skills, most things that truely test your skill is solo content or contet that Needs good Teamwork that can only be done by a full Group of 5 and can’t be done under any circumstances with 4(Everyone Needs to do the right things at the right time or it Fails so People can’t get carried for exmaple SAB tirbunational all People needed to pass checkpoints). If you have solocontent like liadri light up. Finding out a build that makes it easier is a clever trick but it is part of beeing skillfull and having the knowledge how things work. A trick that helps you out is always legit to pass the content and prove your skill if it is to easy to do the content with tricks that are legal than the content wasn’t a challenge in the first place.

Personally I guess about 10% it is I think about the People that managed clocktower in a reasonable time maybe less. For me personally not beeing able to complete somthing motivates me to get better Focus more to overcome the challenge ( I love challenges). But there might be several other opignons and I can only speak for myself.

It can, People also in gw1 that were very skillfull at farming doing content. Had the right builds and knew exactely when to press wich skill to get most out of there dmg cc whatever was needed to kill certain Mobs. So yes skillfull farmers can pull / bomb more. But than again since farming is repetitive and not so much rng becoming a skillfull farmer is way easier than becoming a skillfull Player.

I think it actually Closes the gap between hardcore and casual. I think the most hardcore Players are not the most skillfull Players. A skillfull Player could easy catch up to hardcore Players with they’re skill. And again you speak so much about Gold, you actually don’t Need Gold for anything once you have your gear. And I personally think that skillfull Play should be rewarded by Special accountbound items. So you don’t get rich you just have some Special reward / Show of reward that doens’t make you better or harm others. There is no Point in rewarding skillfull Play with somthing that can be farmed as well since it won’t matter for the skillfull Players. ( Ok if there was a challenge to get all legendaries I would get it but if the same challenge would offer a unique title instead of all legnedaries I’d take the title:))

I don’t think there is anything that spreads the Playersbase if you pass a skillchallenge you passed it you are happy. If you fail you either realize that you can’t do it or you go for it again and as soon as you get it you will have a great Feeling of accomplishment why would this harm the playerbase?

timmyf.1490:

Very true! I’ve just not seen a subclass proposal yet which adds substantial horizontal progression without adding extra grind or power creep that adds to the game in a way the current systems cannot support.

Im not sure I necessarily want a subclass system at all. Id rather play the mesmer that I have,but with more abilities. I would rather play a ranger with more abilities rather than the ability to shapeshift into a druid, for example.

I think finding and/or unlocking additional skills is good enough.

The main issue with measuring skill by reaction time is that it automatically makes people with bad connection unable to be considered skilled, and would thus be unable to access anything that is locked behind said kind of skills, even if they are skillful enough.

lordkrall.7241:

The main issue with measuring skill by reaction time is that it automatically makes people with bad connection unable to be considered skilled, and would thus be unable to access anything that is locked behind said kind of skills, even if they are skillful enough.

Well as I said it’s not only reaction time but also to make the right decision. And People that have a really bad Connection can’t overcome challenges that is true doens’t mean they’re not skillfull just means they’re unable to do it.

There is no way in measuring skill without taking reaction time into consideration. If you know one let me know. But if you have endless time to decide you just ask a skilled Player in Chat what and where you should press and since it’s not about reaction time you just have plenty of time to press the right things… sorry but your Argument reminds me of the ones in the fractal discussion Forums…

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

There is no way in measuring skill without taking reaction time into consideration.

Ever watch a chess match?

lordkrall.7241:

The main issue with measuring skill by reaction time is that it automatically makes people …

Completely valid point, but there is an easier counter-argument to reaction time (and other skill-based systems): elitism.

Edit: Removed a counterargument regarding fractals. This thread is not a fractal discussion.

zamalek.2154:

Which is fine because at certain levels of fractals the content is supposed to be hard, high-end and unforgiving (even to stuff like connection quality). However, having access to every feature of your character is something every player should be able to enjoy. Fractals and horizontal progression are different concepts entirely (main because fractals are vertical progression).

Fractals are Horizontal progression , they don’t make your character more powerful, they just show your character has more skill. (In theory).

Maybe if we phrase the Skill issue as a question it would help promote development of an idea?
Lets take 3 players for the ease of example they are all all rounders,
Player 1: 1k hours played, 30 fractals, 30r Pvp , 100 Wvw, Dungeon master , 9k ap , This player has high skill they’ve 3manned Dredge, held a tower against 3 times their number and is generally good at everything.

Player 2: 1.5k hours played, all the same stats as above, There not a liability and can pull their weight most of the time but don’t expect dramatic last man standing wins against bosses or the like.

Player 3: 2k hours played, same stats as above, This person is the worst, they farmed enough gold to buy dungeon master and to 30 fractals, they got to rank 30 Pvp with 90% losses. The sight of a jumping puzzle makes this person shout for a mesmer.

How do we visually differentiate these 3 players? In such a manner that player 3 Cannot look like player 1 and cannot buy his way to it. Player 2 being the average can have some of the pieces player 1 has but would be incapable of getting them all.

cesmode.4257:

The Lost Witch.7601:

Septemptus.7164:

I mean having system that would progress your character after level 80 with some horizontal progression by adding to it points that you participate in or another set of xp like Wxp.

Is it horizontal though? Is not vertical? The WvW wxp system is vertical. You become stronger the more you play.

Septemptus.7164:

Somehow people in WvW weren’t scared off but they were very excited by the idea.

The specialisation is pretty cool. I like the idea of being good at shooting cannons or carrying supply. And I think that it is the specialisation bit that the WvW crowd is most excited by. The problem for me lies in the fact that it is not just specialisation. Unlike the trait system there is no maximum to it. It works like this: play more = become stronger. Which may still be really cool for WvW veterans and progression fans. But not so much for players like me. (Who still play a lot, but not as focused on one thing)

I would like it to work in a way where you can easily reach the maximum amount of points, and spend it through specializing. (Perhaps you can respec by using excess specialisation points gained through WxP)

I guess I desire to one day be able to say: My character is complete.

Instead of an ongoing strength progression like the one in WvW.

I disagree that the WXP system is verticle. You become stronger but not in the sense that it makes it verticle. In a straight up fight between you and me using only the class abilities at our disposal, pure skill (and, yes gear) will determine who wins. Having a fully maxed out Siege Mastery or Guard Mastery(I cannot remember the name) will make little difference.

What septemptus might be looking for is the system in Rift. You hit max level, you still gain levels(althought your actual character level never changes) similar to how we ding and get skill points. But in Rift you can spend those points to beef up your preferred style of gameplay. For instance, if you are a warrior that used axes, specifically, you can put points into axe mastery to increase crit chance, increase crit dmg, and whatever else. Its actually a honeycomb(literally, the GUI is a honeycomb) of skills that you unlock via points.

That may lean more toward verticle… Maybe a modification of this idea is needed. Instead of power increases, have other sorts of buffs or horizontal progression changes. Like a consumable(infinite amount but on a CD) for a speed/swiftness increase(I know most classes have switfness at their disposal..just throwing a thought out) or unlockable skins(put points into the honeycomb to reach the weapon skins you want to unlock). Holy crud, I actually like my own idea there, I will post in its own response.

I think you cached my point.

cesmode.4257:

Like a consumable(infinite amount but on a CD) for a speed/swiftness increase(I know most classes have switfness at their disposal..just throwing a thought out) or unlockable skins(put points into the honeycomb to reach the weapon skins you want to unlock). Holy crud, I actually like my own idea there, I will post in its own response.

Something along these lines? . The ultimate slots in my system did have combat-viable passives, but there is no reason it would have to.

Either way, I agree. The WvW rank system (as well as my system) is horizontal but vertically acquired (a hybrid, if you will). I’m not entirely sure if a hybrid approach is off topic for this thread.

ColinJohanson.2394:

DiogoSilva.7089:

ColinJohanson.2394:

• Adding new content to the existing maps (or re-using existing moments) that serves the purpose of being a bit like skill challenges, content on demand that allows you to overcome challenges to allow you unlock various abilities/masteries.

A bit like skill challenges, but while skill challenges are just “boss” fights, it would be cool if this kind of content generated entire chains of events with some more gameplay diversity and an interesting scenario behind them.

A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

Remember GW1’s Hall of Monuments, where the winning team got a game-wide chat message announcing their victory? Using that as an inspiration, but thinking of something completely different (without involving pvp), what about some content being unlocked at the end of epic dynamic events, and rewarding access to unique content?

But hey, this already happens with some mini-dungeons, don’t they? Maybe this concept could be expanded upon.

CONCEPT FOR OPEN-WORLD MINI-SCENARIOS

The teams that would complete specific and long challenging dynamic event chains would unlock access to unique mini-dungeons, with some interesting stories, scenarios and challenges behind them, all leading to a mini-story conclusion and a flavored reward to those players. The reward could be anything, including a new subclass tier, or mastery, or something.

Unlocking an open-world mini-dungeon would be map-wide, a message would automatically be generated in the chat warning players about it, and everyone could join and get the “normal reward”, but only the teams that have participated in the specific events that lead to them (and have met a specific condition) would be allowed to get the unique “mastery” reward, and a ray of light would shine upon them for all other players to see. Another message would automatically be generated in the map, this time announcing the players who have advanced through a mastery, and all other players in the map would be like “wow, how did you get your name in the chat? What did you do to get that mastery? I want to get it too!”

The dynamic events leading to those unique open-world scenarios (let’s call it that) would work as discussed: they would either start automatically from time to time, or start on demand if the player has met a specific condition. However, even though they could be started on demand, they wouldn’t be easy, with a high chance of failure for the unprepared, making them more special.

And finally, for a player to meet the specific condition to start those events on demand (and thus to get the “unique” reward from the end of the mini-scenario later unlocked) could be received from the also-discussed Orders quest system, or something.

There you have it, I proposed a new idea (mini-dungeons/ scenarios unlocked from events) and fused this concept with the two other ideas the community has been discussing (unique on-demand events and orders quests).

Very cool, something we’ve discussed a lot internally as well in regards to some of our concepts of what future maps would look like

But don’t we have something similar like that already in Orr? And there it does not work very well.
Really, like I said in my previous post, the horizontal progress that is missing in GW2 is mainly collecting things (farming them in stead of a gold-grind) and working your way up to thinks in general. It’s not really hard to really work your way up to anything (mini collections, dye collection, crafts) without it being just a general grind for gold and then buying what you need. But it’s not so much in the game as a game element.

Just like map-completion feels more like skipping of a list of vista’s, poi’s, hearts in stead of it feeling like a journey (like more traditional quest do). For more details see my previous multi-post. However most suggest I now see are more in the line of what there already is but just a little more. That will not help the people who think there is a overall lag of horizontal progression.

ColinJohanson.2394:

A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

Let me say things we do not need more of for progression

1. Gathering/Crafting. There is so much of that already. Ascended and legendaries are a huge portion of the endgame and are mostly gathering/crafting.

2. Achievements. We have enough rewards centered around Achievements. Achievements are good, but not immersive. So having them as a main reward system (in my opinion) is bad.

Anyways, heres another idea I have for it.

Tie it to the living story through perm questlines. Same idea as before of an NPC with a blue outline who starts it, but it deals with the living story. An example for kessex hills is that say next patch you put in a NPC thats part of the lionguard or something and is charged with cleaning up the mess the toxic alliance left. He could put you on a 4-5 step mission that involves search and rescue of npcs, finding hijacked supplies for the refugees, building defenses against the toxic creatures, putting in air cleaners around the map, then finally a mini dungeon where you kill some kind of toxic boss.

You tie all that to the living story and it offers some perm content you can do with the LS.

VOLKON.1290:

Patrikan Habaton.2548:

There is no way in measuring skill without taking reaction time into consideration.

Ever watch a chess match?

You seem to never watched one or you would know you don’t have unlimited time to decide what you do next. You know why Computer started beating the best chess Players?
Because there is for each combinations on the deck a best way to answer, to be a semi profi you Need to know the best answer to the first 10 moves if you are a profi chess Player you Need to know the best answer for moves for about the 32 moves is it skill? Yeah it is the skill to remember the right moves but if a chessplayer like a gamer has the posibility to look up things it’s meaning less since he could just take a Manual and win ( This is how the Computer wins the chess match against the profi Players:))

cesmode.4257:

I disagree that the WXP system is verticle. You become stronger but not in the sense that it makes it verticle. In a straight up fight between you and me using only the class abilities at our disposal, pure skill (and, yes gear) will determine who wins. Having a fully maxed out Siege Mastery or Guard Mastery(I cannot remember the name) will make little difference.

The difference between ascended and exotic gear is also little. But it is there. And the thing is… it is not always a straight up fight between you and me.

Let’s put it like this:

You have siege mastery and guard mastery and are therefor better at using siege and fighting guards.

I only have guard mastery. This makes me less in potential in the grand scheme of battle. (I may still be a better player, though unlikely , but not having siege mastery makes it so that you have more potential than I have)

What I propose is a system in which you’d have to choose between guard mastery and siege mastery. You just cannot have both. You may have unlocked more different options, and through earning ‘respec’ points, you may be more flexible. But you would not simply be stronger. Sure, the ability to respec in more different directions can be useful in niche situations, but I would not ever feel like I am worse than you. Since I have my own niche to shine in. (Slaying guards… ok, not so shiny a niche )

Ofcourse, in this regard, you may be able to spec into more than one such lines. But there should be a limit, and it should be reachable for casual players.

Deified.7520:

ColinJohanson.2394:

A lot of the ideas boiled down into variations of one of these two options, and really both have a lot of cool concepts and ideas. Can folks think of anything else that’s a bit more outside the box for something bigger?

Let me say things we do not need more of for progression

1. Gathering/Crafting. There is so much of that already. Ascended and legendaries are a huge portion of the endgame and are mostly gathering/crafting.

2. Achievements. We have enough rewards centered around Achievements. Achievements are good, but not immersive. So having them as a main reward system (in my opinion) is bad.

Anyways, heres another idea I have for it.

Tie it to the living story through perm questlines. Same idea as before of an NPC with a blue outline who starts it, but it deals with the living story. An example for kessex hills is that say next patch you put in a NPC thats part of the lionguard or something and is charged with cleaning up the mess the toxic alliance left. He could put you on a 4-5 step mission that involves search and rescue of npcs, finding hijacked supplies for the refugees, building defenses against the toxic creatures, putting in air cleaners around the map, then finally a mini dungeon where you kill some kind of toxic boss.

You tie all that to the living story and it offers some perm content you can do with the LS.

The problem is that most of the things you list here are indeed in the game but more as a grind then as a game-element. Let me explain.

1 Gathering/Crafting.
Yeah there is crafting many of the stuff you need you can not really work towards. Then I am not referring to the gathering stuff but the items you need that generally drop. Because they generally drop you can’t really farm them. It’s not like, ‘I need x then I can farm mob Y in that area for a few minutes’. So how do most people level there crafts. They find a way to grind gold (like the queens-dale train) and then buy what they need.

That means that it’s not in the game as a real game-element (I need x, lets go into the world to get x) but it’s just in as a grind or you buy it with real money.
Plus we really miss crafts where you can just make some fun items.

2 Achivements
Well there you basically say it already. It’s now also just a list to keep you busy and the LS achievements are of the worse kind because they really become a grind. Every 2 weeks a new list of achievements you need to do if you want to keep up. (I stopped doing that some time ago). It really takes the fun out of achievements plus it makes achievements almost the main goal while it should be something nice you get along the way or you can work towards whenever you want. So yes it a from of progression but once again mainly a grind. In GW2 I really came to dislike achievements while I have always loved them… I did achievements even before games had implemented them. Always setting my own achievements. So it shows how a game-element can be taken away if it becomes a grind.

About your solution. I sort of agree. What you are suggesting are 2 elements. Make the LS just a story (no achievements or rewards) and then leave behind permanent content. I totally agree.

You are also saying add in traditional quest (because that’s what your explanation describes). I also agree with that.

The only problem is that if you do that only with the LS it gets like 1 quest every 2 weeks and so people we be done with it very easy. Better is to add that sort of content in a big expansion. And then also indeed make the LS just a story that leaves behind permanent content like quest. Achievements or rewards can then be linked to that content while the story itself has no achievements or rewards linked to it. With that you can then work your way up to the next expansion.

That would work but first you need to make the needed additions over because adding that type on content only one by one means people are to fast done with it.