Guild Wars 2

Right now there a lot of people who feel that Guild Wars 2 isn’t really putting out great content. It’s more just a patch every 2-3 weeks to keep people busy until the next one. I have noticed the usual people I subscribe to on youtube for gw2 content has slowed to a screeching halt. For hardcore players there isn’t anything left to do that is consequential.

However, I have also noticed-at a baffling quantity-people who feel exactly the opposite. They are very happy about how content is rolled out and do not want to see it change. Some even complained that they were never able to get the backpieces for southsun. I find that incredible because that is at most a 6 hour commitment spread over a few weeks. In addition to that I’ve seen several people get upset about when content that hardcore gamers would enjoy such as Ascended gear, and more recently ArenaNet’s “answer to the raid”.

So to state my question plainly to avoid confusion it is: Can ArenaNet roll out content to keep both player bases happy? If so then how (please don’t say cosmetics, that only will work for so long)? Other questions I have are: Is appealing to hardcore players even part of Anets strategy? What will happen to a major MMO that chooses to be casual (I think this is the first time we’ve seen this)?

Please remember this is a discussion so no venting. I am curious to see what casual and hardcore players alike have to say.

No. “Hard core” and “Casual” players can not co-exist, because each demands the others content be destroyed. It’s as simple as that.

No, Anet does not care about “Hard Core” gamers. The game is built for casual players.

That said, I’m a “hard core” gamer, and I have found, and still find, a lot of fun in GW2, I’ve been playing since early release. It is casual content, its not difficult, and the loot is fake, but its a well designed game and I enjoy the combat.

Will myself and other gamers that like more “End Game” content such as raids, etc, eventually move to another MMO? Sure, but that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy GW2 for what it does offer for now.

IMO.

I can coexist with friendly casual gamers.
Casual friendly gamers can coexist with me.
I cannot coexist with kittened “anti-elitists” who always repeat “play like you want” as an excuse for not contributing to the group in any way even if they got asked for.
Those can’t coexist with me either because i’m going to let the party decide if i should leave or if we should kick those. Usually those get kicked.

Araris.7839:

No. “Hard core” and “Casual” players can not co-exist, because each demands the others content be destroyed. It’s as simple as that.

I get what you are saying, but with the world as big as it is, don’t you think they could create areas that would cater to both. Maybe a section of the world would cater to hard core gamers, and another that casual players would get a lot of fun out of without being over challenged.

I see the need for both. There are people who only use a game for entertainment and often don’t have time to commit to it in any way. And the hard core gamers that use it for sport need to be challenged.

In my opinion, I just thing there could be areas geared toward one or another like zones are character leveled.

jheryn.8390:

Araris.7839:

No. “Hard core” and “Casual” players can not co-exist, because each demands the others content be destroyed. It’s as simple as that.

I get what you are saying, but with the world as big as it is, don’t you think they could create areas that would cater to both. Maybe a section of the world would cater to hard core gamers, and another that casual players would get a lot of fun out of without being over challenged.

I see the need for both. There are people who only use a game for entertainment and often don’t have time to commit to it in any way. And the hard core gamers that use it for sport need to be challenged.

In my opinion, I just thing there could be areas geared toward one or another like zones are character leveled.

In terms of -actual- content? yes, you can design an MMO to facilitate the needs of all. However, that isn’t how it works out.

See…the hard core people need rewards in terms of loot, the casual people see that loot, and want it, but they don’t actually want to put in the time to get it.

Thus begins the great decline. Casual players aren’t satisfied with just having their own content, that they can do. They want to do (and benefit from) all content, regardless if they put in the time or have to skill to actually do said content.

Example: The Jumping puzzles that came with the holiday events. Even know the reward is useless and cosmetic, people flamed and roared on the forums about how difficult the puzzle was, and that they wanted easy mode versions of it, but still wanted the rewards.

It’s because of this, that casual and hardcore can never co-exist.

In theory yes. In practise. The “Hardcore” people are locusts that devour content then demand more and more and more without rhyme or reason. They can never be appeased and have tore down many a promising game. They claim to want harder content, but will exploit their way through it every chance they get.

@Araris and @Conner

I think you are both correct.

I do think hardcore gamers go through games faster than a company can put out content. I also think that casual gamers often want things that others have worked really hard to get.

There is no win here. Neither group is bad, just different. I just wish both groups would accept the game as it is and realize that the company that makes it is doing its best to be everything to everyone. Yes, it isn’t going to happen, but usually not from lack of trying.

Maybe in some games they have to pick one or the other of the two groups and one of the groups will just have to get over it.

Hardcore and Casual players can never “co-exist”. This is in terms of content and rewards not the literal meaning. I used to be “hardcore” I think. I used to play all the time in DAoC and would tear through content, would RvR all the time and would farm rewards. I loved the challenge. As I have aged and moved through games I have gotten more casual. I still consume content but at a slower pace.

By knowing how I used to be and how I am now, I can say I would hate myself. LOL. I think you can’t really make a game that caters to both.

the caps for gear are too high bc of hardcore players. casual players would struggle to get even one char any good items, let alone five alts. developers associate casual players too much with simplicity which i think is wrong to a degree. i like difficulty and complex games but play casual times. the choice seems to be to always let casual players go without any nice content/gear. from that point of view the only thing holding casual players is that no other games that are better are ever produced where hardcore players are limited-they could always go to asian mmos if any mmo is too easy.

Casual and Hardcore are lazy labels used by ignorant people to pigeon-hole others unfairly.
They’re stereotypes.

Every player enjoys games a different way. Labeling them is pointless and offensive.
Both terms have negative connotations, so using them will always provoke impassioned responses.
“Casual” implies fly-away, non-dedicated, transient.
“Hardcore” implies no-life, exploitative, elitist.

Overall, they’re marketing terms used by money men to categorise their audience.
Gamers have unfortunately taken these terms to heart without understanding their origins.

I don’t think of myself as either.
I’m just a human being and a gamer.

gw2 has no hardcore content period.

Araris.7839:

See…the hard core people need rewards in terms of loot, the casual people see that loot, and want it, but they don’t actually want to put in the time to get it.

Thus begins the great decline. Casual players aren’t satisfied with just having their own content, that they can do. They want to do (and benefit from) all content, regardless if they put in the time or have to skill to actually do said content.

People expect to see nice content in the game, just like hc players. The only difference is they never get to. If you cut out the hc players or limit them, then the item rewards could take the same amount of time that a hc player used to get them when it’s set to extreme grindiness. At the moment they are calibrated to the hc players. Calibrating it to another group doesn’t really change anything other than to say, “you can’t grind this game, in the same way race officials won’t let you spend 24 hours doing a 1 mile race.”

I like being considered a casual player. Even though I play a lot, I will never be able to get a legendary, will never EVER be able to get 100% map completion, and I will never be able to experience everything this game has to offer. I am okay with that though because the game feels new to me every time I turn it on. I am okay with “hard core” gamers I guess, but I just don’t want them to pressure the developers into changing GW2 into something that it is not. I love GW2 for how it is trying to be.

Dub.1273:

I cannot coexist with kittened “anti-elitists” who always repeat “play like you want” as an excuse for not contributing to the group in any way even if they got asked for.

Except that “any way” always ends up being the “only way”, as in full berserk-melee only. I consider myself competitive, but by no means I’d ever enforce an absolute gameplay on my group.

As for the topic, the problem is a certain type of extremely intolerant casual and hardcore players. One of the guilds im in has a casual playerbase that venture into high level fractals/Arah/CoE for the fun of it and won’t care if they wipe several times while using their random builds. I also run dungeons with a few hardcore friends that won’t mind going to hard dungeons with PUGs and are always willing to instruct newbies and won’t question their gameplay: the hardcore players that don’t feel the need to prove a point to others, but only to themselves, perfectly coexist with casuals.

Although I think Anet should focus a little more on harder content once in a while (such as Molten Facility or the upcoming dungeon), it ends up being a problem of player behavior and it’s not something Anet can manage directly.

As long as casual gamers don’t troll kitten hardcores, and hardcores have good attitude.

But you know, there are just people who like to create and see conflicts.

Araris.7839:

jheryn.8390:

Araris.7839:

No. “Hard core” and “Casual” players can not co-exist, because each demands the others content be destroyed. It’s as simple as that.

I get what you are saying, but with the world as big as it is, don’t you think they could create areas that would cater to both. Maybe a section of the world would cater to hard core gamers, and another that casual players would get a lot of fun out of without being over challenged.

I see the need for both. There are people who only use a game for entertainment and often don’t have time to commit to it in any way. And the hard core gamers that use it for sport need to be challenged.

In my opinion, I just thing there could be areas geared toward one or another like zones are character leveled.

In terms of -actual- content? yes, you can design an MMO to facilitate the needs of all. However, that isn’t how it works out.

See…the hard core people need rewards in terms of loot, the casual people see that loot, and want it, but they don’t actually want to put in the time to get it.

Thus begins the great decline. Casual players aren’t satisfied with just having their own content, that they can do. They want to do (and benefit from) all content, regardless if they put in the time or have to skill to actually do said content.

Example: The Jumping puzzles that came with the holiday events. Even know the reward is useless and cosmetic, people flamed and roared on the forums about how difficult the puzzle was, and that they wanted easy mode versions of it, but still wanted the rewards.

It’s because of this, that casual and hardcore can never co-exist.

I think you might be confusing “casual” with “entitled” and it’s a common misconception on these forums. An allegedly “casual” player who won’t do fractals complaining that he’s being denied access to the ascended gear doesn’t mean that every casual player is complaining about it.

I’m a casual player and I’ve been co-existing with hardcore players since launch, so have many others. Not every casual player wants the rewards without putting in the effort. I’m not brilliant at jumping puzzles, I couldn’t do the Mad King’s Clock Tower to save myself. I complained a lot about that one… to my friends. I shouted at my monitor, my mouse, my keyboard and even my hands a couple of times but it was my fault I couldn’t do it, nobody else to blame. Making it easier probably wouldn’t have helped me much. I did the rest of the Mad King stuff and it was fine.

I didn’t even attempt the Wintersday jumping puzzle because I’m not brilliant at jumping puzzles. I did the rest of the Wintersday stuff and it was fine. I did Flame and Frost and I did Southsun Cove, no real drama there it just took me longer.

It took me months to get 100% World Completion but I got there. It’s going to take me much longer to get my legendary, but, barring accident, injury or illness, I’ll get there too.

I have noticed that a lot of my gw2 youtube subs haven’t been releasing much content lately, and it makes me sad.

That said, I think that using the terms “hard core” and “casual” is…annoying. You’re pigeon holing people into stereotypes that have entirely different definitions based on who is saying them.
I’ve been called “casual” by people who think that “hard core” means WvW every day, all day, and dedicating all your resources to leading your server to victory. I am definitely not casual, just ask my bf who has to deal with me playing for at least 2 hours a day since release. Am I getting bored? Yeah, a little bit, but that’s mostly because a lot of my guild has resorted to CoF all day erry day.

Can a game cater to a more relaxed game play as well as a content eating style? I don’t think so. Guild Wars 2 always advertised the ability to play how you want to play, and people really took that stupid phrase to heart. Yes, you can get just about everything in the game by playing however you want to play, even if that is only sitting in Queensdale killing river drakes, but it’ll take you longer to get exotic gear than someone who runs Arah on a regular basis.
Are people okay with that? No. They want what they want when they want it, which is now. If Anet would just stop catering to all the QQers and make the game they want, I think we’d be better off.

There are many more styles of play than just hardcore and casual. There are even different levels of said labels. And many of these playstyles can and currently do co exist in GW2.

What will never co exist are the extremes of both playstyles.
1- the hardcore player that burns through content like it is tissue paper
2- the casual that randomly logs in and wants everything the hardcore has without doing anything for it.

To the people who are criticizing the terms “hardcore and casual”, of course I am aware their exists in infinite spectrum of players with different wants and needs. However it is impractical to have this conversation while being-for lack of a better word-politically correct. If you have anything worthwhile to contribute to the conversation please post.

OP in answer to your 2nd question is this.

IMO I strongly beleive not only through content but by the wording of Anet staff. That they aiming this game at tbhose with the most disposable income. these players work fulltime and have families usually. These players are between 30 – 60 with those Iin thir late 40s and 50s being the one with the most disposable incomes.

Hardcore players range between 15 – 29 and are mainly collage age. these have the least amount of disposable income.

So to answer your question. No Anet is no aiming at the hardcore players.

Absolutely, they can co-exist. In fact, the game can be much better for it. Appealing to a broader (read casual) base of players brings in money, which in turn funds development. Hardcore players add a large fund of knowledge to a game which in turn benefits casual players, those who want to improve their play but don’t have the time or inclination to theorycraft builds or gameplay.

I think the key to success is in understanding where to satisfy both constituencies. Open world PvE should not be faceroll easy, but should welcome casual players. Hardcore players should find their desired level of challenge in instances where individual skill is required and coordinated teamwork (verbal) is assumed. The needs of both groups can be met and both groups can benefit from the others presence.

So to state my question plainly to avoid confusion it is: Can ArenaNet roll out content to keep both player bases happy?
- Yes, but the extremes of both will never be happy with anything.

If so then how (please don’t say cosmetics, that only will work for so long)?
- I think the current model is working well for most casuals, but the only thing that will keep the truly hardcore around is tons more permanent and very challenging content.

Other questions I have are: Is appealing to hardcore players even part of Anets strategy?
- No, the current direction of the game does not favor the truly hardcore. This should not come as a suprise since they made it clear that they were not going to have raids. 10 months later, no raids. So there is nothing for the extreme hardcore to grind on, no vertical gear stat progression tree to keep climbing.

What will happen to a major MMO that chooses to be casual (I think this is the first time we’ve seen this)?
- Since there is no monthly fee, they will do fine by supporting themselves through a cash store. They are catering to the main stream player that has money to spend, most MMO’s are moving away from designing their content mostly for hardcore. It comes down to economics, you can make much more money catering to the main stream gamer rather than the small subset of hardcore players that devour content faster than it can be produced.

I think the general use of the terms ‘casual’ and ‘hardcore’ are far too vague. Yes, to many there is a very stereotypical definition for each type, but it’s not accurate, as most aren’t. The only truth in a stereotype is that [some of] the characteristics defined exist, to some extent within the individuals being labeled. It can be some, it can be all, but most will never know because they can’t look past the label to see the actual person.

Casual and hard core are categories of players, and within those main categories there are several sub categories of player types. Some are good, some are bad:

The player that wants a legendary, and accepts that it’s just going to take them some more time to achieve it because they can only play 2-3 hours a week.

The dungeon runner that realizes PuGs are not all awesome, and accepts that when he opts to PuG, he might fail. That some of the members may be a little more skill challenged than he is.

The intolerant min/maxer that feels they know best, and that everyone should do as they say.

The locust that devour content and then shout ‘gimme gimme gimme, more more more!’

Just to give a few examples….

It is the nature of all things, games included.

Can most of these various play types get along? Generally, yes. It depends on the person and their attitude towards others honestly.

Can the game offer, and sustain both ‘casual’ and ‘hardcore’ content? Again, yes, given time and patience. Remember, Rome was not built in a day (or even 10 months).

A: I don’t want any drawbacks.
B: I want advantages over other players.

The challenge is to satisfy both groups…(ofc it’s possible)

Guild Wars 1?
Hardcore PvPers, Hardcore Speed Clearers, Easy NM Dungeons and Missions, casual random arenas PvP, the list goes on.

All types of players can co-exist if they have patience. Patience, however, is in short supply on both sides of the divide.

I think it’s all a question of the developers’ abilities. At present, there’s more than enough content to keep the majority of “casual” players happy (not all, as has previously been stated, there are varying degrees of casual) and, again, most have reconciled themselves to the fact that certain aspects of the game will be out of their reach/interest. I’m one of those — I don’t do dungeons, WvW, PvP, not worried about a legendary — I just play to play.

What I think you find moreso on the forums, and if that’s a fair assessment of the HC player-base as a whole, is a lack of challenging group/skill based content that pushes players to the edges of their limits in ability, coordination, etc. And this is where I think it becomes a question of the developers’ abilities. I think more intense dungeons/raids/whatevs is completely within the realm of possibility, and there could be equally, specific rewards for those, whether it be a higher rate at obtaining T6 Mats, specific armor sets, etc. Would there be backlash from some of the casual-base opining they’re not able to obtain said shinies because they’re casual players? Sure. But I think I’m man enough to accept that if I’m not willing to run to the top of the mountain, I’ll never get to see what the view is like. And for those of the opinion that said shinies should be available to everyone, I guess my response would be is that they are — if you’re willing to do the content.

So can there be peace between the two? Sure, I think so. It just depends on what the developers can provide.

Araris.7839:

No. “Hard core” and “Casual” players can not co-exist, because each demands the others content be destroyed. It’s as simple as that.

Yes, casual gameplay is not satisfying for hardcores, and hardcore gameplay is definitely not for casuals, but it goes a bit more complicated further on. Casuals can easily existwith or without hardcores – but hardcores would not want to play the game that is made for casuals. On the other hand, hardcores cannot exist alone. They must have casuals in the same game, even when their preferred gameplay is designed to kitten casuals over.

Araris.7839:

No. “Hard core” and “Casual” players can not co-exist, because each demands the others content be destroyed. It’s as simple as that.

No, Anet does not care about “Hard Core” gamers. The game is built for casual players.

That said, I’m a “hard core” gamer, and I have found, and still find, a lot of fun in GW2, I’ve been playing since early release. It is casual content, its not difficult, and the loot is fake, but its a well designed game and I enjoy the combat.

Will myself and other gamers that like more “End Game” content such as raids, etc, eventually move to another MMO? Sure, but that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy GW2 for what it does offer for now.

IMO.

I kinda agree with this, I mean I think casual and hardcore gamers can co-exist, but we both need to be given attention and Anet only caters to the casual gamers and I don’t think that is fair. And I think casual gamers hate hardcore gamers cause they log on and see stuff that hardcore gamers have and either missed out on the content or are unwilling to commit to doing the what it is to get the stuff hardcores have.

And yes I think that if Anet doesn’t start paying more attention to hardcores then they will lose them when another big MMO is released, and I don’t expect them to change, I doubt they will release anything else for us till an expansion, just more temp stuff.

I tend to avoid casuals and scrubs and not play with them.

That way, I don’t get frustrated with how they play, and they don’t get frustrated with my attitude.

Everybody wins.

They have in WoW for years. The question is are the new developers keeping up with the demands of both crowds. It’s one thing to have a ten year old game that some players just accept certain things with because it would cost too much to change certain things entirely (like WoW trying to do the open world event system and being dungeon/raid focused as it’s always been) it’s entirely another for a new title that’s trying to make it to ignore the playerbase.

The best example of both being in the same place would be Rift in my opinion. They balanced their game quite well between both crowds. They provided gear and “enchantment” currencies, an in depth crafting system, minigames galor for the players to achieve in (fishing, housing, gathering lore items), and on the other hand they have a raid system some of which is open world just like the rifts and invasions, they have dungeons both solo and heroic, they have raids and pvp.

I think they did a great job listening to their playerbase and it shows.

Conner.4702:

In theory yes. In practise. The “Hardcore” people are locusts that devour content then demand more and more and more without rhyme or reason. They can never be appeased and have tore down many a promising game. They claim to want harder content, but will exploit their way through it every chance they get.

But dungeons aren’t “hard”, they’re stupid. Difficulty is about the ratio of how hard something is to how satisfying it is when you beat it, like defeating an old but really hard game without cheats (like Megaman 2 or Ghosts n Goblins). Stuff like the dungeons we have now are not just stupidly designed but UNFAIRLY designed. There’s pretty much no creativity to them, just, “Ahahaha we gave all the bosses looooots of HP, CC-proofing, and make them hit like 18-wheelers on nitro! We did a great job guys, Honolulu trips for everyone!!1”

>:|

FirebrandFrog.7603:

Conner.4702:

In theory yes. In practise. The “Hardcore” people are locusts that devour content then demand more and more and more without rhyme or reason. They can never be appeased and have tore down many a promising game. They claim to want harder content, but will exploit their way through it every chance they get.

But dungeons aren’t “hard”, they’re stupid. Difficulty is about the ratio of how hard something is to how satisfying it is when you beat it, like defeating an old but really hard game without cheats (like Megaman 2 or Ghosts n Goblins). Stuff like the dungeons we have now are not just stupidly designed but UNFAIRLY designed. There’s pretty much no creativity to them, just, “Ahahaha we gave all the bosses looooots of HP, CC-proofing, and make them hit like 18-wheelers on nitro! We did a great job guys, Honolulu trips for everyone!!1”

>:|

I agree 1 shotters are never fun, especially when they are immune to everything, drop their OP AOE skills on top of your AOE healzones 99% of the time, and make it take forever to kill something just because they are bigger. I almost miss the dances we had in other game titles, you know, stand over here, rush the dps before the enrage timer, jump back when they do this AOE, turn around three times and stick your right foot out, at least we wouldn’t be instakilled even tho they too made bosses immune to most CC.

Mostly not. My guess is that they’ll just pingpong from one crowd to the other with mediocre results just to keep people satisfied enough to stick around. Just like everyone else.

Every MMo does this, usually favoring one over the other and keeping “the other crowds” just content enough so they still hang around and put up with just enough crap that doesn’tmake them quit. All mmos always felt like they’re trying to cover an elephant with a tiny blanket, stretching here and there, playing ping-pong with the “community”. And every forum is like this one:. A crazy lobby war and cries for attention.

So all MMOs spread their butter too thin trying to make everyone happy, and i’m quite convicned it’s not a “limitation” or a flaw; that’s the goal. The goal is “to give each crowd something to keep them entertained enough” instead of “making an absolute kick kitten game for a target crowd”.

At least this is the case in all mmos I played. But I suppose my amazing conclusion is just a major fact few still ignore.

Ok let me start about hardcore player and casual player that I would like to address.
I don’t know how this start it but the majority of people have a miss conception of what a real hardcore player is and a what a casual player is .

Hardcore player:
A lot of people out there have a strong believe that a hardcore player is does ppl who go around telling ppl how to play and are always calling out bad players and talk how better they are . This is not a hardcore player this we call a kitten H.O.L.E , this group are by far the worst player ever because the are to full of them self to notice how they really suck at the game it self

A true hardcore player is a person that enjoys a good challenge out of a game, the harder it is the better.

we like the game to keep us on our toe something that lets us think 3 move ahead. We love grinding because the longer we wait the sweeter is the reward

We love breaking the limit of a game in ways that the dev didn’t expect it.

Social Player :
the believe of a social player is a person that wants the game to be easy, where he could be at the same level of a hardcore player with out the need to lift a finger because that would be consider working instead of playing . This we call a LAZY kitten

A true Social player is a person that all he cares is to play with friends and doesn’t get penalize for not playing at the same level of a hardcore player.
A true Social player doesn’t care and doesn’t complains that he cant get access to the best items in the game as long his able to play the game.

This is what a true nature of a hardcore and social player…

Now your question is can they get alone?
Sure they can, FFXI was 1 of the best MMO out there b/c it actually balance the game for both social and hardcore player.. is was a game that nothing had a gear requirement , it was a game that offer gear that had easy access to get and aloud you to use them in any game contest But it also offer a lot of awesome gear that require so much time and patience to get.

Now when it comes to GW2 I cant see any hardcore player on this game b/c there isn’t anything hardcore about this game .. this game is 100% social play style , so any player playing GW2 who call himself hardcore is just the equivalent of a kid on dippers

It is not possible.

Just look at these forums any time raiding is mentioned. People have fits that there might be gear in the game they can’t get. Sure it is tied to an activity they don’t want to do. And you really only need it for that activity, but oh lord there is something in the game they can’t have.

And on the flip side the hardcore aren’t happy when Molly Mcfluff Can spam 1 while standing slightly to the left gets all their cool lots, cause now no one knows how über they are.

No..

Two different types of players, two different points of view and very different ways of enjoying themselves..

Dante.1508:

No..

Two different types of players, two different points of view and very different ways of enjoying themselves..

I’d go further and say those different kinds of players and views go beyond videogames. I woudln’t be surprised if the explorers, roleplayers, people who generally play “casually” (even if they sink a lot of time into the game), don’t care a lot about rewards and are not extremely competitive are the same people who also have a more laid-back attitude towards life, and rather spend their money on travels, social activities, fun and entertainment rather than stuff, for example. (But please don’t just say they’re a bunch of hippies, cause true hippies probably don’t own a good enough computer if at all, and they are probably doing happier things like singing around a fire somewhere and giving each other group hugs, vagabonding around the world… while we sadly waste our time raging about stats and discussing play styles on a stupid mmo forum. You can tell i’m regretting this post already, right. But now I’m finishing it).

On the other end of the spectrum, the farmers, the extremely goal-oriented, competitive people, with strong accumulation and progress drives would be the same people that would rather have a lame kitten job and endure hours of tedious torture so they can buy the next iPhone and the next fuelhog armored car to show off to their neighbor and feel powerful, sexier or just up-to-date.

So it’s probably even deeper. It may be not only a matter of how people play their games, but how they live their lives. What we see in MMOs is probably a portrayal of society out there.These two types of people don’t usually mix; and the less tolerant ones probably even loathe the very existence of the other group.

Bottom line: If they don’t get along and usually have a different range of interests and goals in “real life”, I don’t see how they ever will in an MMO.

There’s a chance I’m oversimplyfing this, or maybe even that I have a skwewed perception of the “social dynamics” of an mmo. That’s up to you to discuss. Now if you want to “sociologically” correct me, go for it. I want to be wrong.

jheryn.8390:

Araris.7839:

No. “Hard core” and “Casual” players can not co-exist, because each demands the others content be destroyed. It’s as simple as that.

I get what you are saying, but with the world as big as it is, don’t you think they could create areas that would cater to both. Maybe a section of the world would cater to hard core gamers, and another that casual players would get a lot of fun out of without being over challenged.

The inherent problem is that hardcore people demand rewards that make them stronger, as opposed to merely cosmetic rewards. That leads to a gear threadmill which kills casual communities. However, elimination of gear threadmills kills hardcore communities.

And that’s the kicker. Casuals can’t live with gear threadmills, while hardcores usually need those to feed superiority complex. I don’t support that. However gathering full Arah gear is pretty hardcore, as is a 15 minute speedkill on Mai.

Are hardcores satisfied with merely cosmetics? That’s the one million gem question.

GW1 had no gear grind, instead people grinned tens if not hundreds of hours to get best cosmetics/skins.
That’s what kept the hardcore players – speed clearers, dungeon runners – occupied for so long time, not getting +6.497% better armor.

Nick.6972:

GW1 had no gear grind, instead people grinned tens if not hundreds of hours to get best cosmetics/skins.
That’s what kept the hardcore players – speed clearers, dungeon runners – occupied for so long time, not getting +6.497% better armor.

And yet farming most of that cosmetic stuff could be done in bite-sized amounts. Hardcore specifically means several consecutive hours (ie raid requirement), and impossibility for casual players.

Casual players can farm. They can farm for hours and hours. They can’t raid for 4 hours a night, 3 nights a week. That’s the difference. Are casuals allowed to get the same stuff as hardcore people by splitting up their time investments?

Rainweaver.7302:

Dub.1273:

I cannot coexist with kittened “anti-elitists” who always repeat “play like you want” as an excuse for not contributing to the group in any way even if they got asked for.

Except that “any way” always ends up being the “only way”, as in full berserk-melee only. I consider myself competitive, but by no means I’d ever enforce an absolute gameplay on my group.

As for the topic, the problem is a certain type of extremely intolerant casual and hardcore players. One of the guilds im in has a casual playerbase that venture into high level fractals/Arah/CoE for the fun of it and won’t care if they wipe several times while using their random builds. I also run dungeons with a few hardcore friends that won’t mind going to hard dungeons with PUGs and are always willing to instruct newbies and won’t question their gameplay: the hardcore players that don’t feel the need to prove a point to others, but only to themselves, perfectly coexist with casuals.

Although I think Anet should focus a little more on harder content once in a while (such as Molten Facility or the upcoming dungeon), it ends up being a problem of player behavior and it’s not something Anet can manage directly.

Lol, what guild are you in and can I join?

Honestly, this post really encourages me. A little more tolerance is needed on both sides. As a casual player, I almost feel barred from some content just because I feel that hardcore players who dictate the way I want to play will not allow me to join their groups, while others, who might be willing to take me through a dungeon will get frustrated with me (and I hate making other people frustrated through my lack of experience/skill/whatever). I had almost given up hope thinking there were still groups of people out there running random builds and not caring about getting wiped and without feeling the need to relegate people to PUGs.

Seriously, huge props to you and your friends.

marnick.4305:

Are casuals allowed to get the same stuff as hardcore people by splitting up their time investments?

Casuals would say “yes, that is how it should be”. Hardcores would say “No, if every casual would be able to get my precious stuff, then everyone would have it and it would become worthless. Only by limiting stuff so that I and only I may get it can we create a truly good game”.

Bright.9160:

I tend to avoid casuals and scrubs and not play with them.

This is a prime reason why the two ‘sides’ well never peacefully coexist.

Kerin.9125:

Bright.9160:

I tend to avoid casuals and scrubs and not play with them.

This is a prime reason why the two ‘sides’ well never peacefully coexist.

Haha, I love how you lump casuals in with scrubs. What a ridiculous mindset.

And then some people will start lumping in hardcore with elitist.

And the argument goes on.

In a perfect world, yes.

Even in a slightly more understanding world.

But in the world we live in, there will always be a vocal majority who expect everything to be catered to their own needs, who make no allowance for what other players might enjoy, and anything that is not catered specifically for them is considered either a insult to them or signs of incompetence from the devs.

Astralporing.1957:

Only by limiting stuff so that I and only I may get it can we create a truly good game.

This is an amazingly perceptive quote and has struck a chord with me.
It highlights the petty need of some people who can only enjoy something if they’re spoiling the enjoyment of others.
It’s god-complex level stuff, a very egotistical, selfish view of how games and society should work. It shows a distinct lack of empathy and can almost be classified as sociopathic.

I don’t even know that the recent content in the past few months is targetting casual or hardcore. I don’t think its a matter of just that. I think the bigger issues lie in the fact that most of the content is temporary(and the good stuff like dungeons) and it is laced with RNG and encouragement to the cash shop each time.

Whether arguments about either of these facets can be for or against casual or hardcore, I dont know.

Im in between. When I play guild wars, I have 2-3 hours per night, every night, with more time on the weekends. I would say that I play far less than hardcore players with 5-10 hours per day and more on weekends, but the way I play is far more “hardcore” than the casual camp. I take my character seriously. I farm for mats, for drops, for rares, for precursors. Currently, I have not been able to simply enjoy the game like I set out to this time around, so I have stopped playing.

So I suppose to answer your question: It caters more toward the casual. Temporary fluff content. There is no difficulty in any content. Theres a long, long carrot on the stick in the form of ascended gear and legendaries. But all of that is grind, and hardly difficult.

This is the absolute grindiest game on the market, which is hilarious when it set out not to be. Sure grind is optional. What else is there to do? See the pretty world? Most people can only do that for so long.

cesmode.4257:

This is the absolute grindiest game on the market, which is hilarious when it set out not to be. Sure grind is optional. What else is there to do? See the pretty world? Most people can only do that for so long.

You haven’t played many MMOs, have you, because you can’t possibly say that otherwise.

Nope, that right there is what you would call a conflict of interests.

GW2 is a casual’s game however and I’ll be more than happy to let them have it once something more in line with my demands comes along. Or I get bored. Whichever comes first.