Guild Wars 2

There are simply too many free to play/buy to play options out there for me to ever consider paying a sub for an MMO again.

KOPPER.1458:

“So you’d finish an expansion in a month and not have anything to do for the rest of the year? Probably not going to be any better for you.”

This doesn’t seem to hold true in most cases. It took me nearly a year to get bored and or complete most of the current content without living story stuff.

Of course this adds things in like wvw and spvp which with an expansion wouldn’t hold a ton of new value for me. But a real fully fleshed out expansion generally gives a player like me months of new content.

I am sorry but LS just doesn’t do it for me sadly. I want it to work but the story is moving at a snails pace and the content is really just grabbing AP. In game rewards are getting better but are still fairly minimal. There isn’t much to earn or progress your character.

For the record I am not looking forward to any of the new MMOs coming out. I’ve played the 2 big ones announced and both are fairly lacking (opinion), I am not interested in going back to wow ever. EQN will be released when? We don’t know yet and I still am not even close to sold on that game. This is the game I like and want to continue to play, I am just feeling a little stagnant as of late.

Expansions are rarely as large or has as much longevity as the original game itself.

GW2 took 5 years to produce. Of course, some of those 5 years will be used to create the engine, learn how to sue it, etc etc, but an expansion will not see as much content as the original because they won’t have enough time to do it.

Always an interesting topic, since SOE made all their franchises FTP with cash store.. cause it makes more income. Smedley predicted the microtransaction model many many years ago, possibly because he realized that the only way to beat the illegal RMT sellers was to become one, and partake of that huge, proven income source.

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

Anyway, my funds, that could be used to buy gems.. pay for 2 subs in other games. Games that introduce new content that ALL of my characters can eventually access and enjoy, now, or a year from now.

I’m quite happy to log in, mine my Ori and wvw a bit, Ignore the worthless LS, and chuckle that I have no intention of giving GW2 5 cents for content worth less than that.

I would never pay a sub-fee… I want the freedom of being able to log in once a month, if you have other stuff going on, without paying full monthly fee and feeling obligated to play more, because you paid money for it.
I won’t mind paying for expansion when they release it though.

GuildWarsPlayer.5608:

It’s not the price of the subscription for sub based games that turns some players off, it’s the idea of continuously charging a player to simply play a game that has already been purchased.

That’s a very conditional statement.

How big is the game world? How much content does it offer the player? How viable is replayability? How customizable are the characters? How social of a game is it? Etc.

There are many factors involved in prolonging the lifespan of a game in relation to a single player. Money, or subbing, is just one of them. And not really a big one unless you’re either really young or really poor. Like someone said earlier, give up a Happy Meal(or two) a month for it. If you think about it, charging 20 bucks a month for unlimited play is actually really cheap…even if you already bought the game… as long as the game company provides adequate services to befit the sub.

Adding nothing at all over time is obviously not going to cut it. Constant updates and/or the occasional(usually annual) expansion is the normal route to do that. The biggest question is quality of said content.

In other words, does new content suck or not suck. Simply stating “But they constantly keep adding stuph!” over and over doesn’t amount to much if it’s not that good. Not commenting on this game’s new content(not here anyway), just saying it’s usually all about the quality. At least in the long run it is, locusts will try anything you shove in their face.

GuildWarsPlayer.5608:

GW2 has pretty much rendered me unable to play any of the previous mmo’s I used to play simply because, I can’t move myself to pay a monthly fee anymore.

With all this game has to offer, the amazing graphics and game play, constant new updates and material to play, I just can’t seem to move myself to pay for a sub from games ( which I will not name do to the rules of this forum ) that aren’t half as good as this one. GW2 has made me a true supporter of the BUY TO PLAY mmo genre.

If there are any other BUY TO PLAY mmo’s out there as good as this one, please, let me know what they are, I would like to support them the same way I support GW2. If naming those games on this forum is against the rules shoot me a pm.

Thanks.

Guild Wars (and its expansions), yes, the graphics are not as nice as GW2, but its really good (and a big reason why so many people are actually very disappointed with GW2)

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

According to MMO developers and analysts over the years, a very very small number (compared to the number of people who spend money on the game shops) of people actually spend more than $15 a month on free to play MMOs. Basically the initial investment might be high, but over time it averages out to be ~$15 a month or less for the vast majority of the paying customers. Take my brother for instance, he spent an additional $150 on the game right from the beginning, so yes his initial investment was high, but now he is averaging ~$10 a month, and that number will keep going down till he buys gems again, in which he doesn’t see a need for a long while.

eisberg.2379:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

According to MMO developers and analysts over the years, a very very small number (compared to the number of people who spend money on the game shops) of people actually spend more than $15 a month on free to play MMOs. Basically the initial investment might be high, but over time it averages out to be ~$15 a month or less for the vast majority of the paying customers. Take my brother for instance, he spent an additional $150 on the game right from the beginning, so yes his initial investment was high, but now he is averaging ~$10 a month, and that number will keep going down till he buys gems again, in which he doesn’t see a need for a long while.

LOL. The average subscription-based game only costs about $15 per month as well. You’re even contradicting yourself with your brother’s example. If your brother plays the game for three years and buys gems once per year in the future, he will have averaged just over $12 per month for that entire period.

Hope you don’t vote …

Cactus.2710:

GuildWarsPlayer.5608:

It’s not the price of the subscription for sub based games that turns some players off, it’s the idea of continuously charging a player to simply play a game that has already been purchased.

Sorry, but that sounds inane. An MMO isn’t some game that you play offline on your computer. It requires ongoing support in the form of server costs and (if it wants to survive) some level of fresh content. One way or another the player community as a whole WILL be continuously paying for a game it has “already paid for.” Whether that comes from a subscription fee or some coerced demand (notice I didn’t say forced) from a cash shop is irrelevant on a macro basis … the cost is still there that needs to be covered.

And to say that it’s the principle of the fee and not the amount is pretty incredible. However you look at it, less than 50 cents per day is trivial compared with other entertainment options such as cable/satellite TV, or a movie, or a concert, or your internet connection, or a ticket to a basketball game, or Netflix, etc.

There are many things I like about GW2 but several more that I greatly dislike (gear grind, broken and imbalanced WvW, poor communication between devs and players, WAY too much RNG, etc), and if the next MMO comes from devs who care enough and are smart enough to avoid those deficiencies then I will gladly pay a modest subscription fee to reward them for their ongoing efforts.

It may sound insane to some but it’s obvious GW2 is proving my point by not having a subscription fee. I never said I don’t support games, I simply said I see no point in paying a sub for an mmo that doesn’t meet the standards of GW2. From what I’ve played thus far, and I’ve played many mmo’s, none of them stand up to GW2.

This will be the last time I make this point. I don’t want to continue going in circles around this subject.

EverythingXen.1835:

There are simply too many free to play/buy to play options out there for me to ever consider paying a sub for an MMO again.

Agreed. See, some people understand what I’m saying. It’s not hard to grasp.

Thanks for the reply.

Cactus.2710:

eisberg.2379:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

According to MMO developers and analysts over the years, a very very small number (compared to the number of people who spend money on the game shops) of people actually spend more than $15 a month on free to play MMOs. Basically the initial investment might be high, but over time it averages out to be ~$15 a month or less for the vast majority of the paying customers. Take my brother for instance, he spent an additional $150 on the game right from the beginning, so yes his initial investment was high, but now he is averaging ~$10 a month, and that number will keep going down till he buys gems again, in which he doesn’t see a need for a long while.

LOL. The average subscription-based game only costs about $15 per month as well. You’re even contradicting yourself with your brother’s example. If your brother plays the game for three years and buys gems once per year in the future, he will have averaged just over $12 per month for that entire period.

Hope you don’t vote …

yeah, before you decided to insult me, you should have comprehended what you read first. Reading comprehension is important, and people should have strong reading comprehension skills before voting.

I’m someone who came from WoW. I enjoyed that game I really did. Then I got burned out and asked myself. Why I was still playing when it felt more like a job. Unlike a real job though I was paying to play. I found GW2 and have enjoyed myself ever sense. I may go back to WoW at some point if they fix there problem with the cross realm zones.

eisberg.2379:

Cactus.2710:

eisberg.2379:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

According to MMO developers and analysts over the years, a very very small number (compared to the number of people who spend money on the game shops) of people actually spend more than $15 a month on free to play MMOs. Basically the initial investment might be high, but over time it averages out to be ~$15 a month or less for the vast majority of the paying customers. Take my brother for instance, he spent an additional $150 on the game right from the beginning, so yes his initial investment was high, but now he is averaging ~$10 a month, and that number will keep going down till he buys gems again, in which he doesn’t see a need for a long while.

LOL. The average subscription-based game only costs about $15 per month as well. You’re even contradicting yourself with your brother’s example. If your brother plays the game for three years and buys gems once per year in the future, he will have averaged just over $12 per month for that entire period.

Hope you don’t vote …

yeah, before you decided to insult me, you should have comprehended what you read first. Reading comprehension is important, and people should have strong reading comprehension skills before voting.

LOL again. Please describe (specifically) what part of your post I misunderstood. And then I’ll point out to you how you composed it wrong in the first place. Trust me, my reading comprehension and composition skills exceed yours, but if I turn out to be wrong I will admit it here.

GuildWarsPlayer.5608:

EverythingXen.1835:

There are simply too many free to play/buy to play options out there for me to ever consider paying a sub for an MMO again.

Agreed. See, some people understand what I’m saying. It’s not hard to grasp.

Thanks for the reply.

Didn’t you just say that you weren’t going to post on this again?

Cactus.2710:

eisberg.2379:

Cactus.2710:

eisberg.2379:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

According to MMO developers and analysts over the years, a very very small number (compared to the number of people who spend money on the game shops) of people actually spend more than $15 a month on free to play MMOs. Basically the initial investment might be high, but over time it averages out to be ~$15 a month or less for the vast majority of the paying customers. Take my brother for instance, he spent an additional $150 on the game right from the beginning, so yes his initial investment was high, but now he is averaging ~$10 a month, and that number will keep going down till he buys gems again, in which he doesn’t see a need for a long while.

LOL. The average subscription-based game only costs about $15 per month as well. You’re even contradicting yourself with your brother’s example. If your brother plays the game for three years and buys gems once per year in the future, he will have averaged just over $12 per month for that entire period.

Hope you don’t vote …

yeah, before you decided to insult me, you should have comprehended what you read first. Reading comprehension is important, and people should have strong reading comprehension skills before voting.

LOL again. Please describe (specifically) what part of your post I misunderstood. And then I’ll point out to you how you composed it wrong in the first place. Trust me, my reading comprehension and composition skills exceed yours, but if I turn out to be wrong I will admit it here.

What I typed is pretty clear in relation to what I was responding to. My example about my brother goes in hand to what I stated prior to that example. The example does not contradict in any way in what I said, it is an example that supports it. What part of the post did you misunderstand? The whole thing.

How about you tell me what you think I said? Because apparently you feel that I stated something that I never actually said, meaning you didn’t comprehend my statement correctly.

Also, you have no idea what my reading/composition skills are for you to make that comparison.

When Colin Johanson wrote,

“The answer can be found in the mechanics and choices made in subscription-based MMOs, which keep customers actively playing by chasing something in the game through processes that take as long as possible. In other words, they design content systems that take more time to keep people playing longer.”

…he pegged the sub model game. So many systems are about slowing you down and offering repetitive content backed by titles, mounts, gear and other rewards. Once I see this in action, I feel I’m being ripped off.

On the other hand, it seems that GW2 is now introducing systems to keep players playing as long as possible. It seems Colin’s observation is not limited to sub games. It seems to be a symptom of MMO’s, because the players insist the game keep them occupied for many hours per day, potentially for many years.

GW2 was a good purchase. The game at launch was a lot of fun. I got my money’s worth. However, the ongoing offerings have not inspired me to keep contributing.

eisberg.2379:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

According to MMO developers and analysts over the years, a very very small number (compared to the number of people who spend money on the game shops) of people actually spend more than $15 a month on free to play MMOs. Basically the initial investment might be high, but over time it averages out to be ~$15 a month or less for the vast majority of the paying customers. Take my brother for instance, he spent an additional $150 on the game right from the beginning, so yes his initial investment was high, but now he is averaging ~$10 a month, and that number will keep going down till he buys gems again, in which he doesn’t see a need for a long while.

Cite those Sources. The “industry” has been going FTP or hybrid for years, and monetization is the reason. Most new mmo’s are planned to be FTP with microtransactions. The industry is not doing this out of charity, the model generates more revenue, period.

Only WoW has kept the sub only scheme. Lotro, AoC, STO, SWToR, Vanguard, Everquest, Everquest2, Tera, etc have all gone to FTP options with cash stores or a hybrid model with FTP and Sub options.

I played a lot of games pre “official” micro RMT. It was there… players themselves proved the validity of the concept by paying monthly subs.. and also massive amounts of real currency to online gold sellers, levelers, etc etc. This is the very thing John Smedley studied with his cash RMT allowed “exchange” server in Everquest 2. It was the driving force behind his decisions to take SOE games into the cash store and then hybrid/ftp model. It is why the industry is going there. It is where the money is, and to argue that is fairly ludicrous.

2007 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1716/soes_station_exchange__the_.php

Also interesting in that SOE has indeed take the game economy into RL economy for some players in an interesting way. Player designed items, furniture, weapons, etc can be submitted to SOE for consideration as a cash store item.. most are very well done, popular, and the revenue is a win for both SOE and the player/designers.

“Expansions are rarely as large or has as much longevity as the original game itself.

GW2 took 5 years to produce. Of course, some of those 5 years will be used to create the engine, learn how to sue it, etc etc, but an expansion will not see as much content as the original because they won’t have enough time to do it.
"
While this is true; I have found through experience that those expansions seemingly give me more than LS does. This might not be actually true, but it feels true.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

eisberg.2379:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

According to MMO developers and analysts over the years, a very very small number (compared to the number of people who spend money on the game shops) of people actually spend more than $15 a month on free to play MMOs. Basically the initial investment might be high, but over time it averages out to be ~$15 a month or less for the vast majority of the paying customers. Take my brother for instance, he spent an additional $150 on the game right from the beginning, so yes his initial investment was high, but now he is averaging ~$10 a month, and that number will keep going down till he buys gems again, in which he doesn’t see a need for a long while.

Cite those Sources. The “industry” has been going FTP or hybrid for years, and monetization is the reason. Most new mmo’s are planned to be FTP with microtransactions. The industry is not doing this out of charity, the model generates more revenue, period.

Only WoW has kept the sub only scheme. Lotro, AoC, STO, SWToR, Vanguard, Everquest, Everquest2, Tera, etc have all gone to FTP options with cash stores or a hybrid model with FTP and Sub options.

I played a lot of games pre “official” micro RMT. It was there… players themselves proved the validity of the concept by paying monthly subs.. and also massive amounts of real currency to online gold sellers, levelers, etc etc. This is the very thing John Smedley studied with his cash RMT allowed “exchange” server in Everquest 2. It was the driving force behind his decisions to take SOE games into the cash store and then hybrid/ftp model. It is why the industry is going there. It is where the money is, and to argue that is fairly ludicrous.

2007 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1716/soes_station_exchange__the_.php

Also interesting in that SOE has indeed take the game economy into RL economy for some players in an interesting way. Player designed items, furniture, weapons, etc can be submitted to SOE for consideration as a cash store item.. most are very well done, popular, and the revenue is a win for both SOE and the player/designers.

No specific source to cite, stuff stated in various different interviews by various MMO developers/analysts over the years, but the general thing they said is that the vast majority of the paying MMO players in Free to Play games are not spending more than a sub.

Edit: Found 1 source that talks about it (not going to look for more since the ones I have seen were in interviews not dedicated to free to play demographics only),

Females spend $111 vs $74 for males in MMOs

http://venturebeat.com/2011/08/03/more-gamers-are-spending-real-money-on-virtual-goods-and-women-are-spending-more-than-men/

And there has been more things said over the years in various different interviews/blogs/reports, ect.

The reason why more and more companies are going with a cash shop model is because they can grab more players to play the game, which creates a bigger pool of people to get to spend money. LOTRO went from sub to free to play, when they went free to play they had to add more servers, cause more players were playing than before. Even though each player may not be spending $15 a month, they make more money over all because they got more players spending money even if it is only $5 a month. Example (Game has 100 players playing $15 a month when it was a sub only game, going free to play they might have 400 players paying $5 a month, and they are making more money than they did before.

Free to Play games or even Buy to Play games are not surviving because most people are spending more than $15 a month, they are surviving because they get a crap ton more people to spend some money.

I can’t play other MMOs because of the lack of loot/exp sharing with strangers.

i also thought i couldnt play something without dodging anymore but yesterday i did my first raid after more than a year and it was good fun.

my problem here is the way i am .lets say motivated. to buy gems. i understand the player should feel the need to buy gems but exactly this keeps me from having a relaxed time.
i rather spend 12€ and am done with it/ have all options. than being advertised 24/7. like some said, a normal bank, unlimited transmog, char slots etc could easily cost more than the monthly fee.

a year ago i wouldnt have said this. anyway play what you enjoy

Before I got GW2, I I came from a ‘free to play’ game. Free to play yes….but pay to win.

Buying this game was worth every single penny. I’ve never played a sub game, but I could never go back to another cashshop mmo. I’m spoiled by the balance in this game.

I can happily choose how much I want to pay for GW2, when I feel like it. No required subscription, and no gameplay mechanic that enforces the need for cashshop? Yes please.

I cant because EQN isnt here yet. Oh well, the PS4 will keep me preoccupied while I hope and pray ANET has the sense to work on an expansion.

eisberg.2379:

Cactus.2710:

eisberg.2379:

Cactus.2710:

eisberg.2379:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

According to MMO developers and analysts over the years, a very very small number (compared to the number of people who spend money on the game shops) of people actually spend more than $15 a month on free to play MMOs. Basically the initial investment might be high, but over time it averages out to be ~$15 a month or less for the vast majority of the paying customers. Take my brother for instance, he spent an additional $150 on the game right from the beginning, so yes his initial investment was high, but now he is averaging ~$10 a month, and that number will keep going down till he buys gems again, in which he doesn’t see a need for a long while.

LOL. The average subscription-based game only costs about $15 per month as well. You’re even contradicting yourself with your brother’s example. If your brother plays the game for three years and buys gems once per year in the future, he will have averaged just over $12 per month for that entire period.

Hope you don’t vote …

yeah, before you decided to insult me, you should have comprehended what you read first. Reading comprehension is important, and people should have strong reading comprehension skills before voting.

LOL again. Please describe (specifically) what part of your post I misunderstood. And then I’ll point out to you how you composed it wrong in the first place. Trust me, my reading comprehension and composition skills exceed yours, but if I turn out to be wrong I will admit it here.

What I typed is pretty clear in relation to what I was responding to. My example about my brother goes in hand to what I stated prior to that example. The example does not contradict in any way in what I said, it is an example that supports it. What part of the post did you misunderstand? The whole thing.

How about you tell me what you think I said? Because apparently you feel that I stated something that I never actually said, meaning you didn’t comprehend my statement correctly.

Also, you have no idea what my reading/composition skills are for you to make that comparison.

You realize you didn’t say anything there, right? I mean, you really didn’t.

But to clarify what I gathered from your first post, the guy you responded to was pointing out that most people who complain about the cost of pay-to-play games end up spending virtually as much on free-to-play games (cash shops, etc). Your reply certainly seemed to be an attempt to contradict his assertion (are you saying it wasn’t?) … in spite of the fact that the costs you list for free-to-play (industry averages and your brother’s example) are within round off error of the average cost of a pay-to-play game. Your opposing contention was invalidated by the data you offered that instead supported his, and I find it really odd that you can’t understand that.

eisberg.2379:

The reason why more and more companies are going with a cash shop model is because they can grab more players to play the game, which creates a bigger pool of people to get to spend money.

There was a bigger jump when a MMO switched to F2P in the past 3-5 years ago, but it just isn’t true anymore. There are way too many free MMOs and the market is saturated. People literally have a choice of a dozen decent MMOs that are completely free.

We have seen mergers of a lot of F2P games recently, that bump is minimal n ow.

Cloudwalkernz.1328:

LOL unlike the OP, I actually looking forward to a sub based MMO. Why? you may asked. It is because like a lot of people I am sick of all the so called free to play MMO. I always end up spending more money than I am on a sub based MMO. Also I am sick of the RNG and P2W rubbish.

As far as GW2 goes, it is fairly good value for money. Sadly, maybe because it has no sub, Anet don’t seem to be able to afford to make an expansion like a sub based MMO lile WoW which has just announce yet another expansion. Something that no doubt will help them to bring back a lot of old players and new alike.

As far as B2P, I think only Ever Quest Next is following that model. Every other new MMOs are either sub or f2p.

Everquest Next is going Free to Play not Buy to Play.

I’m actually Enjoying Rift myself wish i’d gone to it before i purchased Guildwars 2 honestly its a much better game with a lot more longevity.

Dante.1508:

Cloudwalkernz.1328:

LOL unlike the OP, I actually looking forward to a sub based MMO. Why? you may asked. It is because like a lot of people I am sick of all the so called free to play MMO. I always end up spending more money than I am on a sub based MMO. Also I am sick of the RNG and P2W rubbish.

As far as GW2 goes, it is fairly good value for money. Sadly, maybe because it has no sub, Anet don’t seem to be able to afford to make an expansion like a sub based MMO lile WoW which has just announce yet another expansion. Something that no doubt will help them to bring back a lot of old players and new alike.

As far as B2P, I think only Ever Quest Next is following that model. Every other new MMOs are either sub or f2p.

Everquest Next is going Free to Play not Buy to Play.

I’m actually Enjoying Rift myself wish i’d gone to it before i purchased Guildwars 2 honestly its a much better game with a lot more longevity.

Different strokes for different folks. I disliked Rift quite a bit. I thought it was an almost game. They almost made the changes the genre needed (from my point of view) and they stopped short.

That made it worse for me than games that didn’t pretend to be different.

Cloudwalkernz.1328:

LOL unlike the OP, I actually looking forward to a sub based MMO. Why? you may asked. It is because like a lot of people I am sick of all the so called free to play MMO. I always end up spending more money than I am on a sub based MMO. Also I am sick of the RNG and P2W rubbish.

As far as GW2 goes, it is fairly good value for money. Sadly, maybe because it has no sub, Anet don’t seem to be able to afford to make an expansion like a sub based MMO lile WoW which has just announce yet another expansion. Something that no doubt will help them to bring back a lot of old players and new alike.

As far as B2P, I think only Ever Quest Next is following that model. Every other new MMOs are either sub or f2p.

GW2 is not pay to win. Its good value for box price, and a few gem purchases, but falling short with LS updates. The current one isnt bad, could use some work. As far as EQN goes, im stoked for it.

Cactus.2710:

eisberg.2379:

Cactus.2710:

eisberg.2379:

Cactus.2710:

eisberg.2379:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Pretty hilarious that those who boldly exclaim “I will never buy a sub” possibly pay out more per month than those who do.

According to MMO developers and analysts over the years, a very very small number (compared to the number of people who spend money on the game shops) of people actually spend more than $15 a month on free to play MMOs. Basically the initial investment might be high, but over time it averages out to be ~$15 a month or less for the vast majority of the paying customers. Take my brother for instance, he spent an additional $150 on the game right from the beginning, so yes his initial investment was high, but now he is averaging ~$10 a month, and that number will keep going down till he buys gems again, in which he doesn’t see a need for a long while.

LOL. The average subscription-based game only costs about $15 per month as well. You’re even contradicting yourself with your brother’s example. If your brother plays the game for three years and buys gems once per year in the future, he will have averaged just over $12 per month for that entire period.

Hope you don’t vote …

yeah, before you decided to insult me, you should have comprehended what you read first. Reading comprehension is important, and people should have strong reading comprehension skills before voting.

LOL again. Please describe (specifically) what part of your post I misunderstood. And then I’ll point out to you how you composed it wrong in the first place. Trust me, my reading comprehension and composition skills exceed yours, but if I turn out to be wrong I will admit it here.

What I typed is pretty clear in relation to what I was responding to. My example about my brother goes in hand to what I stated prior to that example. The example does not contradict in any way in what I said, it is an example that supports it. What part of the post did you misunderstand? The whole thing.

How about you tell me what you think I said? Because apparently you feel that I stated something that I never actually said, meaning you didn’t comprehend my statement correctly.

Also, you have no idea what my reading/composition skills are for you to make that comparison.

You realize you didn’t say anything there, right? I mean, you really didn’t.

But to clarify what I gathered from your first post, the guy you responded to was pointing out that most people who complain about the cost of pay-to-play games end up spending virtually as much on free-to-play games (cash shops, etc). Your reply certainly seemed to be an attempt to contradict his assertion (are you saying it wasn’t?) … in spite of the fact that the costs you list for free-to-play (industry averages and your brother’s example) are within round off error of the average cost of a pay-to-play game. Your opposing contention was invalidated by the data you offered that instead supported his, and I find it really odd that you can’t understand that.

Nope, read his quote that I was responding too. Keep reading it till you can comprehend what he said, this is where your comprehensions skills began to lack.
He said more, not equal to or less than. There is this “myth” if you will, where generally people believe that most free to play MMO players spend more than a subs fee per month on free to play MMOs. I was just stating that is not the case based on what I have seen industry professionals have stated over the years in various interviews/blogs/reports, ect. What I stated was not just for him, but for other readers as well, who I responded to may or may not believe that most free to players spend more than a sub fee per month, but given his quote that I used I wouldn’t be surprised that he did since it seems to be a common belief among MMO players. I was responding to this common myth based on his what he stated in the quote I used from him in my post.

I find it odd that you can’t understand that More is not that same as equal to or less than. He stated More than, I stated Less than, those 2 are completely different. Also, you are the one that added my brother spending more money over a 3 year period to get it to equal $12 to get that “rounding error”, not me. Also though I couldn’t remember the exact numbers at the time, I knew it was a lot less than a subs fee per month on the average, and it is. $74 a year for males, and $111 a year for female. We know that MMOs are mostly males, which means most paying customers are spending ~$6 a month on the average, that is far far from a “round error” that you injected into my example.

I’ve never been a fan of subscription fees. Not to mention, I rarely enjoyed the games anywhere near as much as I enjoyed GW1. If I wanted to read a story, I’d just go grab a kitten book.

As for the complaints about spending more in micro-transactions than in sub fees… learn self control I guess. There is nothing in the shop that is necessary to play, not in the slightest. You choose to spend money in the shop, because you like something and find throwing cash at the game easier. You could have just as easily farmed the gold, converted that to gems, and purchased the shop items that way. Other games have shops in addition to their sub fees, some of which contain items that are very much needed for continued play. I have a hard time believing some of you have never thrown money into those shops, if you do so willingly for this game, which means you willing paid a sub fee for another game and spent money in their shop. Seems like double dipping to me….

Cloudwalkernz.1328:

LOL unlike the OP, I actually looking forward to a sub based MMO. Why? you may asked. It is because like a lot of people I am sick of all the so called free to play MMO. I always end up spending more money than I am on a sub based MMO. Also I am sick of the RNG and P2W rubbish.

As far as GW2 goes, it is fairly good value for money. Sadly, maybe because it has no sub, Anet don’t seem to be able to afford to make an expansion like a sub based MMO lile WoW which has just announce yet another expansion. Something that no doubt will help them to bring back a lot of old players and new alike.

As far as B2P, I think only Ever Quest Next is following that model. Every other new MMOs are either sub or f2p.

Uh huh. So which is it? Are you paying more for gems then you would for a sub, or are they not making enough without subs. Those are mutually exclusive positions you know. And guess what, you wont be the only person giving them more via the gem shop then by a sub. Kinda why lotta games shifting towards that….. I know I spent more in the shop then I did in a year on a 15/month sub.
Before I got fed up with RNG boxes, time gated grind and other grinds, that is. All while ignoring the war on dragons we were here for. So now they getting nothing. If they ever get back to the Elder Dragon war and release a real expansion, then they can have more of my money.
Ain’t holding my breath tho. I no longer believe we will ever see another elder dragon.

Did you ever go to play another game and stare at the screen in disbelief that your character is dead because you couldn’t dodge-roll?

Happened to me in TF2 of all places. GW2 combat has spoiled me.

VOLKON.1290:

Did you ever go to play another game and stare at the screen in disbelief that your character is dead because you couldn’t dodge-roll?

Happened to me in TF2 of all places. GW2 combat has spoiled me.

Yes. I’ve been playing more and more other games as the grind pushes me more and more away. I have such a hard time not being able to dodge. I keep hitting it and nothing happens. x]

Sleel.8365:

VOLKON.1290:

Did you ever go to play another game and stare at the screen in disbelief that your character is dead because you couldn’t dodge-roll?

Happened to me in TF2 of all places. GW2 combat has spoiled me.

Yes. I’ve been playing more and more other games as the grind pushes me more and more away. I have such a hard time not being able to dodge. I keep hitting it and nothing happens. x]

The grind will only push you away if you let it. I’m working on an ascended greatsword for my mesmer, but I’m also completely taking my time doing it. There’s no rush… the boost in stats is marginal enough that it’s not a necessity for me. So steady as she goes and when I finally do get weaponsmith to 500 that’ll be a nice thing, but nothing I’m going to stress or sweat over. There’s plenty of good WvW lovin’ to be had regardless.

VOLKON.1290:

Sleel.8365:

VOLKON.1290:

Did you ever go to play another game and stare at the screen in disbelief that your character is dead because you couldn’t dodge-roll?

Happened to me in TF2 of all places. GW2 combat has spoiled me.

Yes. I’ve been playing more and more other games as the grind pushes me more and more away. I have such a hard time not being able to dodge. I keep hitting it and nothing happens. x]

The grind will only push you away if you let it. I’m working on an ascended greatsword for my mesmer, but I’m also completely taking my time doing it. There’s no rush… the boost in stats is marginal enough that it’s not a necessity for me. So steady as she goes and when I finally do get weaponsmith to 500 that’ll be a nice thing, but nothing I’m going to stress or sweat over. There’s plenty of good WvW lovin’ to be had regardless.

Oh…burned out on WvW long time ago. Long before they started mixing up matchups and guilds bailed on GoM. Used to be in there more then anything else. Then I didn’t look at it for months, now, I might manage goin in a couple nights a week. Sometimes I miss a matchup completely.
This turning WvW into an achieve farm isn’t helping. Even in my limited play time I’ve seen lotta achieve farming at the expense of effective WvW play going on. Disincentivizes defense and makes it about flipping. Assuming you aren’t matched up against 2 servers, each way over your pop, so you can’t get anything done, as it is this week. I’m trying to get into it again. Used to be my favorite thing.

And with a toon of each profession, I don’t think for a second each of them will get a weapon, not with the comp req’s they require, which equates to piles of time, either gathering comps or farming gold to buy em.

Cloudwalkernz.1328:

LOL unlike the OP, I actually looking forward to a sub based MMO. Why? you may asked. It is because like a lot of people I am sick of all the so called free to play MMO. I always end up spending more money than I am on a sub based MMO. Also I am sick of the RNG and P2W rubbish.

As far as GW2 goes, it is fairly good value for money. Sadly, maybe because it has no sub, Anet don’t seem to be able to afford to make an expansion like a sub based MMO lile WoW which has just announce yet another expansion. Something that no doubt will help them to bring back a lot of old players and new alike.

As far as B2P, I think only Ever Quest Next is following that model. Every other new MMOs are either sub or f2p.

I’d rather pay monthly for a really good game aswell.

matjazmuhic.1649:

Cloudwalkernz.1328:

LOL unlike the OP, I actually looking forward to a sub based MMO. Why? you may asked. It is because like a lot of people I am sick of all the so called free to play MMO. I always end up spending more money than I am on a sub based MMO. Also I am sick of the RNG and P2W rubbish.

As far as GW2 goes, it is fairly good value for money. Sadly, maybe because it has no sub, Anet don’t seem to be able to afford to make an expansion like a sub based MMO lile WoW which has just announce yet another expansion. Something that no doubt will help them to bring back a lot of old players and new alike.

As far as B2P, I think only Ever Quest Next is following that model. Every other new MMOs are either sub or f2p.

I’d rather pay monthly for a really good game aswell.

I’ll say this… after GW2, it had better be one hell of a game to come out to convince me to cough up a subscription. I’m going to want a static-quest hub free world, amazing combat, continual content updates, back rubs, free sandwiches coming out of my computer, you name it. I don’t see how anyone now can compete with ArenaNet for quality and quantity to such a greater degree that a subscription could be considered warranted.

VOLKON.1290:

matjazmuhic.1649:

Cloudwalkernz.1328:

LOL unlike the OP, I actually looking forward to a sub based MMO. Why? you may asked. It is because like a lot of people I am sick of all the so called free to play MMO. I always end up spending more money than I am on a sub based MMO. Also I am sick of the RNG and P2W rubbish.

As far as GW2 goes, it is fairly good value for money. Sadly, maybe because it has no sub, Anet don’t seem to be able to afford to make an expansion like a sub based MMO lile WoW which has just announce yet another expansion. Something that no doubt will help them to bring back a lot of old players and new alike.

As far as B2P, I think only Ever Quest Next is following that model. Every other new MMOs are either sub or f2p.

I’d rather pay monthly for a really good game aswell.

I’ll say this… after GW2, it had better be one hell of a game to come out to convince me to cough up a subscription. I’m going to want a static-quest hub free world, amazing combat, continual content updates, back rubs, free sandwiches coming out of my computer, you name it. I don’t see how anyone now can compete with ArenaNet for quality and quantity to such a greater degree that a subscription could be considered warranted.

And you claim to play WvW? There is SO much broken about WvW in this game, and sPvP in GW2 doesn’t hold a candle to that which can be found in other games … Rift among them. I migrated to GW2 at launch specifically for the PvP and it has been the most disappointing aspect of the game by far. If it weren’t for the fact that the sandbox PvE of GW2 is pretty decent I’d have been gone long ago. As it is, unless something changes dramatically in WvW between now and when TESO comes out, my days with GW2 are numbered. I’m actually hoping that ANet proves me wrong because I’d honestly prefer to stay here, but unless they do it will be either TESO or back to Rift for me.

GuildWarsPlayer.5608:

It may sound insane to some but it’s obvious GW2 is proving my point by not having a subscription fee. I never said I don’t support games, I simply said I see no point in paying a sub for an mmo that doesn’t meet the standards of GW2. From what I’ve played thus far, and I’ve played many mmo’s, none of them stand up to GW2.

This will be the last time I make this point. I don’t want to continue going in circles around this subject.

It’s more than a little smug to state your opinion on this, then say the equivalent of “the argument is now over”. One of the purposes of these forums is for…well…arguing your point after all.

Your statement entirely depends on what you mean by “standards”. Personally, I’d agree with you on several things: graphics, action-oriented combat, and the many ease-of-use mechanics in the game like node-sharing, kill-sharing, wallet, etc. Other things I have issue with: lackluster storyline, poor optimization, alt-unfriendliness, time-gated gear progression, tiny build diversity, no guild halls, no expansion, zergs…

The cons, for me, outweigh the pros. For you they obviously don’t. A monthly fee isn’t wrong in and of itself, it’s only wrong if a company fails to deliver on it. ANet can wax poetic all day long on how their “no-fee” model is superior to every other out there, but everything boils down to quality. Yes, you’re guaranteed not to pay if you don’t want to, but what exactly are you not paying for again?

It’s kind of like this.

" As it is, unless something changes dramatically in WvW between now and when TESO comes out, my days with GW2 are numbered. "

Man are you going to be disappointed.

“And you claim to play WvW? There is SO much broken about WvW in this game, and sPvP in GW2 doesn’t hold a candle to that which can be found in other games … Rift among them.”

What is it currently that is broken about WVW that needs to change in order to make it more balanced and fun. What is found in other games in reference to WVW that GW2 just doesn’t stack up?

I ask the same question above about sPVP.

I played rift exclusively long before it went F2P in all it’s aspects so I’d love to know what your view is about this. Honestly asking, no sarcasm intended.

Cactus.2710:

But to clarify what I gathered from your first post, the guy you responded to was pointing out that most people who complain about the cost of pay-to-play games end up spending virtually as much on free-to-play games (cash shops, etc). Your reply certainly seemed to be an attempt to contradict his assertion (are you saying it wasn’t?) … in spite of the fact that the costs you list for free-to-play (industry averages and your brother’s example) are within round off error of the average cost of a pay-to-play game. Your opposing contention was invalidated by the data you offered that instead supported his, and I find it really odd that you can’t understand that.

The premise was that people supposedly, via some sort of research, would on average spend more that $15/mo on a F2P game. He was saying that he does not agree with said premise and used his brother as an example of someone spending less than $15/mo on average when you extend his $150 purchase out over 1 year. You then retorted by saying it comes out closer to $12/mo if he purchased $150 once per year over 3 years and then said he contradicted himself.

Sadly I must agree with him that you didn’t quite get where he was going with his comment. I hope this helps.

Not sure where people are getting their numbers as no one seems to post sources…

but the people who actually look at this have a different idea:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/market-data/online-games-research/

On average people pay ~$25/month (depending on country of origin) in F2P games, over $15/month for subscription games.

So anyone that is arguing that they pay less, is on average, just wrong.

That’s just the facts. I’ll put my opinions in another post to follow.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Not sure where people are getting their numbers as no one seems to post sources…

but the people who actually look at this have a different idea:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/market-data/online-games-research/

On average people pay ~$25/month (depending on country of origin) in F2P games, over $15/month for subscription games.

So anyone that is arguing that they pay less, is on average, just wrong.

That’s just the facts. I’ll put my opinions in another post to follow.

They keywords there are ‘on average.’

Some people pay much much more, because they can and they want to. Other people pay none at all, ever. The research only takes into account the amounts spent, and the number of players and then averages it out. Thus making it seem like the average player spends more than a normal monthly sub, when in fact that simply isn’t true. All it takes is a few players with excessive amounts of income to skew that number.

Also, you are not taking into account that p2p games also have shops, which players use. This should drive up the ‘average’ player monthly expenditure for p2p games. But we seem to have not bothered to factor that in.

In the case of p2p games, all players pay a minimum of the monthly sub, where as with a b2p/f2p a player pays a minimum of nothing. The choice to spend (and how much) beyond these minimums rests solely on the player.

Personally I prefer P2P games over what we have gotten this past year. The Core GW2 game that I paid $50 for is great. The content and ideas are good, the combat is solid and new, and the original dungeons were good, if not a little buggy.

But since then we have gotten pretty much crap imo. The QoL and bug fixes have been about average for an MMO, but the addition of content has been vastly subpar. Every 2 weeks we get ~6 hours of new content, 4 of which is grinding. Additionally we get 3-4 high quality items in the gem store.

Technically I don’t have to pay for the new grind content, however if I want the high quality rewards I need to go to the gem store. The rewards that are put ingame are obviously of a lower quality, and why not, they need people to want the stuff in the gem store. Without this trend the game wouldn’t make money. Unfortunately what this means is that the caliber of content added to the game is naturally lower.

In a P2P game, sure I only get one content patch every 3 months, but that content patch has actual content in it. New gear, new weapons, new zones, new dungeons, new raids.

It takes me 4-6weeks of high levels of play to see all the new content, and I use the time left over to earn extra money to fund raiding and high level dungeons since they typically actually have challenge and cost associated with them.

If I finish the content a month early I can always not play that month if I feel it isn’t worth the $15.

I never have to spend extra money to get gear that actually looks good, pay for the best gear (P2W incoming to Gw2 soon, see datamined files for complete armor sets for lvl 20, 40, and 60 in gem store), or pay to have fun playing the content instead of grinding (SAB coin anyone?).

Q: Do a lot of players really expect to only play an MMO for a month or 2? I go in hoping and or thinking that I am going to play for several years. This isn’t always the case but never do I think to myself “going to play this for a month and then move on”

KOPPER.1458:

Q: Do a lot of players really expect to only play an MMO for a month or 2? I go in hoping and or thinking that I am going to play for several years. This isn’t always the case but never do I think to myself “going to play this for a month and then move on”

If I dont see myself still excited to log in at least 3 months down the line, I dont bother in the first place.

That’s one of MMO’s biggest advantages. Sixty bucks for a game that could feasibly last me years.

KOPPER.1458:

" As it is, unless something changes dramatically in WvW between now and when TESO comes out, my days with GW2 are numbered. "

Man are you going to be disappointed.

“And you claim to play WvW? There is SO much broken about WvW in this game, and sPvP in GW2 doesn’t hold a candle to that which can be found in other games … Rift among them.”

What is it currently that is broken about WVW that needs to change in order to make it more balanced and fun. What is found in other games in reference to WVW that GW2 just doesn’t stack up?

I ask the same question above about sPVP.

I played rift exclusively long before it went F2P in all it’s aspects so I’d love to know what your view is about this. Honestly asking, no sarcasm intended.

Maybe I will be disappointed in TESO … maybe not. I really enjoyed both Oblivion and Skyrim so any carryover in form and fit from those games will be a plus, but the most encouraging aspect of TESO for me is that ZeniMax has been pretty obviously targeting the major flaws of GW2 WvW for the alliance-based PvP portion of TESO.

And what is so bad about WvW? For starters, the result for any match … EVERY match … is virtually predetermined based solely on the relative populations of the respective servers in the match. Population and coverage trumps all else and nothing else even comes close. That alone breaks it for me, because unlike many WvW’ers, I don’t play WvW just to bash heads in a zerg and collect rewards. I played WvW because it purported to be large-scale, strategy-based, team-dependent, broad-scope warfare that keyed on contributions from individual scouts, small raiding teams, and larger armies combined over the course of a full week in order to achieve a victory. Very little of that actually is the case anymore, and instead of bug fixes and corrections to the population imbalance that we’ve begged for we’ve gotten award mechanisms that encourage players to greatly narrow their focus on offense and practically abandon any semblance of defense, siege enhancements that take the place of player combat skill, and a ridiculous league format that generates consistent blowouts. And what’s the most likely change in WvW that will come from the recent “collaborative” thread with the devs? Dynamic adjustments to the PPT ticks so that the server being spawn camped or at least restricted to a small subset of the game play so that the loser of the match will still end up with a score close to that of the winner even though all they were able to do was kill a few yaks and cap a few camps. I don’t now about you, but the final score means nothing to me if I wasn’t able to participate in the same full range of activities as the opposing team because they steamrolled my team every time we tried. I’ve posted in several other threads that I think ANet needs to convert WvW to an instanced format, but I no longer have much hope they will ever do that.

The problem with GW2 sPvP is that every version is essentially a capture-the-flag format. You get a different map each time, but the mechanism to win is boringly identical and the maps are small and cramped to boot. At least with Rift most (not all) warfronts had a different mechanism and except for the library one they had some size and space to them. The biggest problem with Rift warfronts is that there were rather few of them, but that’s also the case with GW2.

Now I will readily admit that Conquest, Rift’s version of three-faction, large scale, strategy-based PvP was an abject abomination, and my disappointment with it was the single reason I left Rift to come to GW2. WvW in GW2 for the first few months seemed to be exactly what I was looking for … except for the population imbalances … but virtually every change since last winter has moved WvW in the wrong direction (spare me the part about removing culling because it was introduced in the first place to cover up capability deficiencies in the game) while nothing has been done to fix the core issues.

So I hope TESO does it right … but if they don’t I’ll probably have to settle for doing warfronts in Rift. GW2 does sandbox PvE better than any other game, but they don’t do PvP/WvW (my preferred mode of play) nearly as well and logging on simply to do my daily is getting old.

KOPPER.1458:

Q: Do a lot of players really expect to only play an MMO for a month or 2? I go in hoping and or thinking that I am going to play for several years. This isn’t always the case but never do I think to myself “going to play this for a month and then move on”

I don’t even bother trying a game I don’t think will hold me for a long time, and I resist like hell changing. But I will change if/when I lose faith that it will be or become what I expect from it.

eisberg.2379:

Cactus.2710:

What I typed is pretty clear in relation to what I was responding to. My example about my brother goes in hand to what I stated prior to that example. The example does not contradict in any way in what I said, it is an example that supports it. What part of the post did you misunderstand? The whole thing.

How about you tell me what you think I said? Because apparently you feel that I stated something that I never actually said, meaning you didn’t comprehend my statement correctly.

Also, you have no idea what my reading/composition skills are for you to make that comparison.

You realize you didn’t say anything there, right? I mean, you really didn’t.

But to clarify what I gathered from your first post, the guy you responded to was pointing out that most people who complain about the cost of pay-to-play games end up spending virtually as much on free-to-play games (cash shops, etc). Your reply certainly seemed to be an attempt to contradict his assertion (are you saying it wasn’t?) … in spite of the fact that the costs you list for free-to-play (industry averages and your brother’s example) are within round off error of the average cost of a pay-to-play game. Your opposing contention was invalidated by the data you offered that instead supported his, and I find it really odd that you can’t understand that.

Nope, read his quote that I was responding too. Keep reading it till you can comprehend what he said, this is where your comprehensions skills began to lack.
He said more, not equal to or less than. There is this “myth” if you will, where generally people believe that most free to play MMO players spend more than a subs fee per month on free to play MMOs. I was just stating that is not the case based on what I have seen industry professionals have stated over the years in various interviews/blogs/reports, ect. What I stated was not just for him, but for other readers as well, who I responded to may or may not believe that most free to players spend more than a sub fee per month, but given his quote that I used I wouldn’t be surprised that he did since it seems to be a common belief among MMO players. I was responding to this common myth based on his what he stated in the quote I used from him in my post.

I find it odd that you can’t understand that More is not that same as equal to or less than. He stated More than, I stated Less than, those 2 are completely different. Also, you are the one that added my brother spending more money over a 3 year period to get it to equal $12 to get that “rounding error”, not me. Also though I couldn’t remember the exact numbers at the time, I knew it was a lot less than a subs fee per month on the average, and it is. $74 a year for males, and $111 a year for female. We know that MMOs are mostly males, which means most paying customers are spending ~$6 a month on the average, that is far far from a “round error” that you injected into my example.

[/quote]

Ahh … I see the disconnect between us here. You think I have a reading comprehension problem and I think you have a logic comprehension problem. In my book, “pay more than” and “pay the same as” are pretty much the same determinant (I didn’t say equal) … there is a difference) if, as you suggest, cost was a key factor in a player’s decision not to play a pay-to-play game. Nobody is going to NOT play a pay-to-play game simply because it costs essentially the same as a free-to-play game. I wasn’t arguing that people pay more for a free-to-play game than a pay-to-play game … only that if indeed the costs are at least similar it doesn’t matter.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Not sure where people are getting their numbers as no one seems to post sources…

but the people who actually look at this have a different idea:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/market-data/online-games-research/

On average people pay ~$25/month (depending on country of origin) in F2P games, over $15/month for subscription games.

So anyone that is arguing that they pay less, is on average, just wrong.

That’s just the facts. I’ll put my opinions in another post to follow.

I posted a link earlier to another research that showed that males spend about $74 per year on free to play MMOs, and females pay about $111 per year on free to play MMOs.