Guild Wars 2

projectcedric.6951:

tonyl.5063:

… not habit of “Mob is targeting me, so push 4”… Or it’s time to do a combo, the same combo for the 30,000,000 time since I started playing the game, OMG SKILL!!!!!!!11

And trinity roles are different from this how?

That while trinity roles have a set role that you follow most of the time, it focuses on a skill set specific to that role…. Tanks will have to worry about mob positioning and placement, healers (when designed right) have to make those quick decisions on who to heal and when, Damage dealers need to learn the fights inside and out and learn to avoid as much damage as possible. Meanwhile in most games, each role has the utility of other roles… A healer will be called on to control a mob, a tank might have to help prevent damage on other players, a damage dealer might be throwing heals out. Combat roles themselves have no effect on the complexity of combat in the game, I don’t know where you guys keep getting this from, I"m willing to bet GW2 might be your first MMORPG, or you never actually tanked or healed in an older one.

By getting rid of the trinity, they could have gone a step above that, where you can organize actual roles to your group, where every player can have a job, something he’s responsible for, not necessarily tanking and healing, but one guy has to put on a shield to protect the group from occasional insane damage, one person is responsible for kiting a boss during certain phases, one person should be focusing on as much damage reduction for the group as possible…. But instead, they went the opposite way, we’re all damage dealers that can dodge. ArenaNet didn’t get rid of the trinity, they just didn’t add a tank and healer, there’s a HUGE difference. A game designed on no trinity should actually have a more in depth ability set, a higher requirement of situational awareness and placement, other players should be more than just adding more damage (the fact that people have solo’d some “endgame” content should shine some light on the terrible design). Basically, avoiding damage and staying alive should be a group effort, not push V at the right time, and keep a snare on the mob. The combat system, the way they did it, is just too simplistic. A trinity is actually a step up from what it is now.

It’s not set combat roles that make combat in games boring, it’s bad game design. Just like where some games made tanking as mundane as spamming your taunt ability and that’s pretty much it (FFXI, looking at you), GW2 made a very repetitive combat system that lacks any real complexity. I wouldn’t recommend looking at WoW now, because the game really took some huge steps backwards, but if you can find some WoW videos of top guilds during TBC, or they’re RARE to find, but top guilds in EQ2 during its prime, look at how much off-role utility those tanks and healers use, then imagine that with no set tanks or healers…. That’s more of what ANet marketed this game as, not the dodge-fest it is now. And people have a right to complain, it’s not like they were given an option to try it before buying it. The game was marketed as not needing the trinity and taking a step above that, when really all they did was dumb combat down to actually less than you do in most single player combat games, and let you throw more people at the mob to help you kill it.

I stopped reading after he wrote “trough” for the seventh time.

If you want to be taken seriously, proof read your wall’s of text

tonyl.5063:

projectcedric.6951:

tonyl.5063:

… not habit of “Mob is targeting me, so push 4”… Or it’s time to do a combo, the same combo for the 30,000,000 time since I started playing the game, OMG SKILL!!!!!!!11

And trinity roles are different from this how?

That while trinity roles have a set role that you follow most of the time, it focuses on a skill set specific to that role…. Tanks will have to worry about mob positioning and placement, healers (when designed right) have to make those quick decisions on who to heal and when, Damage dealers need to learn the fights inside and out and learn to avoid as much damage as possible. Meanwhile in most games, each role has the utility of other roles… A healer will be called on to control a mob, a tank might have to help prevent damage on other players, a damage dealer might be throwing heals out. Combat roles themselves have no effect on the complexity of combat in the game, I don’t know where you guys keep getting this from, I"m willing to bet GW2 might be your first MMORPG, or you never actually tanked or healed in an older one.

By getting rid of the trinity, they could have gone a step above that, where you can organize actual roles to your group, where every player can have a job, something he’s responsible for, not necessarily tanking and healing, but one guy has to put on a shield to protect the group from occasional insane damage, one person is responsible for kiting a boss during certain phases, one person should be focusing on as much damage reduction for the group as possible…. But instead, they went the opposite way, we’re all damage dealers that can dodge. ArenaNet didn’t get rid of the trinity, they just didn’t add a tank and healer, there’s a HUGE difference. A game designed on no trinity should actually have a more in depth ability set, a higher requirement of situational awareness and placement, other players should be more than just adding more damage (the fact that people have solo’d some “endgame” content should shine some light on the terrible design). Basically, avoiding damage and staying alive should be a group effort, not push V at the right time, and keep a snare on the mob. The combat system, the way they did it, is just too simplistic. A trinity is actually a step up from what it is now.

It’s not set combat roles that make combat in games boring, it’s bad game design. Just like where some games made tanking as mundane as spamming your taunt ability and that’s pretty much it (FFXI, looking at you), GW2 made a very repetitive combat system that lacks any real complexity. I wouldn’t recommend looking at WoW now, because the game really took some huge steps backwards, but if you can find some WoW videos of top guilds during TBC, or they’re RARE to find, but top guilds in EQ2 during its prime, look at how much off-role utility those tanks and healers use, then imagine that with no set tanks or healers…. That’s more of what ANet marketed this game as, not the dodge-fest it is now. And people have a right to complain, it’s not like they were given an option to try it before buying it. The game was marketed as not needing the trinity and taking a step above that, when really all they did was dumb combat down to actually less than you do in most single player combat games, and let you throw more people at the mob to help you kill it.

Agreed, i wish developers would respond to this.

I’ll probably get yelled at by Professor Oak (this is not the time or the place), but one of the reasons I find most FPSs these days terrible is because no matter have much of a team-based game it should be, there’s no reason to work as a team. One man with enough skill can mow down an entire team.

With no definitive roles, Guild Wars 2 is subject to the same. I was hoping that some classes would at least have the option to fall into the trinity if they choose. Soldiers can tank if developed in that way, but only if the enemy continues to focus on the Soldier (which doesn’t always last long). Guardians and Elementalists have a large number of area heals, but neither can hold the team together for very long. I was hoping the game retained this role system, but didn’t force players to take a role in a group. I would like to be able to tank and/or heal all the same, but there’s no real benefit to take up either. You’ll be stuck as a damage dealer primarily focusing on your life instead of the party.

I play an Altruistic Healing Guardian whose primary focus is to have allies in the area (which personally should not have to happen for survivability). If my allies die, the amount of health I recover drops. This means if an ally is foolish, I cannot heal that ally with regeneration, or I lose aggression from the enemy, my own survivability drops. It would be nice to have some way of ensuring the enemy stays focused on me.

Biggest problem with I have with the lack of roles, is that a tanky guardian is really not that much more defensively oriented than a tanky necromancer per say. Perhaps with abilities, the guardian can heal up a bit more, and add some defense, but i feel that I can get really tanky on my necro (3.1k armor) relatively easy, without sacrificing anything and still have more hps than my guardian. That bothers me somewhat, as heavy armor really does not offer any more real protection than light armor…. or at least it is marginal at best.

I am not an advocate to the return to the trinity, but I have a problem with the way gw2 is set up, because it really makes you dependent on no one other than yourself, or the zerg, which boils down to numbers. Well organized group can not benefit each other .. other than shared targeting.

It is probably my biggest problem with gw2 combat… no role, no cooperation, no need to group.

Heavy armor gives about 300 more than light. That results in about 3% damage reduction, or about one extra blow worth for survivability.

Simply running in circles will be a better option, especially if you have available a ranged weapon that bounce. i survived an encounter with stuffed griffins this way today, as trying to face them head on was suicide.

Gryph.8237:

Biggest problem with I have with the lack of roles, is that a tanky guardian is really not that much more defensively oriented than a tanky necromancer per say.

And why should they be? Who says that the heavy armor class should be the better tank? That’s a trope left over from other games. If anything, I’d say the class that’s the master of death itself should be the hardest to kill.

Gryph.8237:

It is probably my biggest problem with gw2 combat… no role, no cooperation, no need to group.

No roles? I completely disagree. Talk with your group and establish roles. Do some fights and figure out who’s drawing the most aggro through their armor rating + damage dealing and then adjust accordingly to support that player. Plan your utilities to complement each other. Know who’s setting what fields and who has what finishers. Are roles easily defined? No, but that’s a huge step forward in my opinion. Because you can’t place anyone in a box and can’t assign sole responsibilities to any one person, you all share the glory and all share the shame.

No cooperation? That’s your fault. Communicate with your team. Nothing is stopping you from cooperating and there are a number of tools to do so. Know who your tankiest members are. Know who is doing condition damage and who’s doing direct damage and make sure not to overload bleeds and set fields to help your condition dealers. Know whether its best to keep your ranged characters back or if its better to cluster for shouts, banners, spirits, heals and buffs.

No reason to group? Are you attempting to list a con? Because to me, that’s one of the biggest benefits to this game out there. If I don’t want to group, nothing is making me have to. I can do everything except for the dungeons solo. There doesn’t need to be a reason to group. Group if you want to and solo if you don’t. It took this long for a development team to finally realize this and I’m overjoyed that there’s finally a game out there that has this mentality.

Tolmos.8395:

In GW2 you have to get out of dodge fast when an enemy is coming at you, dodging attacks and running like a madman. All of this while managing combo fields (unless you are a crap player) and still maintaining a decent rotation?

I raided for 5 years in WoW and 1.5 in Rift, switching between tank, healer and dps, and I can say dungeoning in this game is an entirely different beast. But my favorite part is watching self proclaimed “skilled” raiders from other games come here, get roflstomped in a dungeon, and go home saying GW2 sucks.

I never played WoW(or Rift), so can’t talk bout carrying or skill req there, but…
You think dodging is hard and requires skill? That’s laughable. The only “skill” needed is because, well, I actually don’t know what the problem is(maybe it doesn’t work with inv frames?), but it’s extremely random. I have been killed in the middle of a dodge animation. Example: ice worm balls can(and should) be dodged just as they are about to hit you, while the push-pull mobs in Orr you have to dodge when they start the animation and not when the axe is about to hit you(then you get dragged middodge) which is weird, because I dodge and 1s later “evade”(i’m already out of the animation and running when i somehow “evade” the hit). The only skill is to know when to dodge the particular skill. Now compare it to other games. Like, 9Dragons. Where good pvp healers had to see the nuke coming before it was even casted so we could move out of range and, ya know, not die. Red circles have been a part of MMOs ever since I started gaming, so that’s not special either.

Yeah, as opposed to keeping buffs on your party, debuffs on the enemy, making sure everybody’s hp is good, avoiding attacks, dpsing yourself, refilling mana every-so-often, being familiar with every single debuff icon in the game(and since those are often reused, knowing what enemy does what debuff), not having the luxury of “rotation”, because the situation and your priorities change every second, even knowing the sounds skills make(to heal a raid in Aika successfully I had to know that…because…stealthers and all). That’d be what I, as a haler, do most of the time(at least when I’m at the top of my game and not being lazy in a corner) in pretty much every game I played. Compared to that…GW2 is half-asleep mode.

Omega.1473:

Gryph.8237:

It is probably my biggest problem with gw2 combat… no role, no cooperation, no need to group.

No roles? I completely disagree. Talk with your group and establish roles. Do some fights and figure out who’s drawing the most aggro through their armor rating + damage dealing and then adjust accordingly to support that player. Plan your utilities to complement each other. Know who’s setting what fields and who has what finishers. Are roles easily defined? No, but that’s a huge step forward in my opinion. Because you can’t place anyone in a box and can’t assign sole responsibilities to any one person, you all share the glory and all share the shame.

Basically that.

There is tremendous potential for cooperation and coordination in this game. Maybe it’s not rewarded enough though, since, unfortunately, most people don’t bother with it.

Lymain.6723:

Omega.1473:

Gryph.8237:

It is probably my biggest problem with gw2 combat… no role, no cooperation, no need to group.

No roles? I completely disagree. Talk with your group and establish roles. Do some fights and figure out who’s drawing the most aggro through their armor rating + damage dealing and then adjust accordingly to support that player. Plan your utilities to complement each other. Know who’s setting what fields and who has what finishers. Are roles easily defined? No, but that’s a huge step forward in my opinion. Because you can’t place anyone in a box and can’t assign sole responsibilities to any one person, you all share the glory and all share the shame.

Basically that.

There is tremendous potential for cooperation and coordination in this game. Maybe it’s not rewarded enough though, since, unfortunately, most people don’t bother with it.

Except it’s the same exact thing we’ve been doing for the last 10 years. Those combos are nothing new. That system hasn’t changed since it was first introduced.

Using utility is nothing new, keeping buffs up, getting debuffs off, etc, that’s just playing your class. Even having to actively avoid attacks, and physically aim yourself to the enemy to get attacks off has already been done.

GW2’s mechanics bring nothing new to the table. Any experienced MMORPG player (beyond only playing WoW) has done all of it before. To us, doing a damage combo isn’t a show of skill, or teamwork, after this long all it means is “push this button at this time”.

Now, what you said about assigning those roles to your group, that’s what everyone wants, that’s what we’re saying we want, but combat mechanics just don’t call for it. If part of my job is to keep for great justice up, that’s easily solved by setting that to my autoattack, and just cancel before there’s going to be any pauses in combat.

I think what is REALLY missing from combat isn’t so much the lack of defined tank and healer roles, it’s the lack of the synergy within a group that you get in other games. What real benefit do you have of bringing my warrior over a thief in this game? Where does a Necromancer get his spot to shine?

Look at FFXI, who for as much of a boring grind the game was, they had some good ideas. Rogues would use an ability combo, they’d use sneak attack which was a guaranteed crit, with trick attack that transfers all threat to the person in their group they stood behind… So what would happen is someone would pull, and get positioned so the mob would be facing him, with his back to the tank, and the rogue would stand behind the tank, he’d use that combo and give the tank a HUGE lead on threat, which would let the group safely do a skillchain combo… Then what do we have in this game? A buff that you should put up anyway, and skill combos, maybe dispel people in your group?

You say there’s a lot of teamwork and a lot of opportunity to work together as a team, I say you’ve never played a game where you TRULY work as a team.

I really hope this game stays miles away from the old trinity system. As a healer, I can honestly say it’s boring as hell. Standing in the back pressing 4,4,4,5,4,4,4,4,5,4,4,6,4,4,5… isn’t engaging gameplay. The trinity is lame, and GW2 needs to stay away from it.

Honestly, the GW2 ‘trinity’ of control, damage, and support is stupid. These are just basic descriptions of things everyone can do in battle. It’s there and it happens as naturally throughout the game as walking forward and jumping happens, so promoting these basic combat functions are nonsensical.

No, I’ve typed this elsewhere and I’ll repeat it here, each profession needs ‘roles’ of their own. For instance, turret or elixir engineer, a banner or stance warrior, a spirit weapon or symbol guardian. Now you might say “well, they can already be all of that”, well, yes and no. You can equip these skills, but the effect often times feel a bit lackluster, and I blame traits for this.

Right now some traits feel a little wishy-washy. For example: “reduce damage dealt to turrets by 30%” or “increase spirit weapon damage by 10%”. WoW suffered from the same ‘numbers just aren’t all that fun’ issue, and GW2 kinda replicates that now. Traits should have a sense of being fun. Some do, but some of them could be a bit more powerful than they are now. Basically, they should promote GW2 archetype builds, like a spirit guardian or turret engineer, and they will be a fun asset to the party through fun and interesting trait choices.

Perhaps if traits were used to better define skill functions or change options, maybe even affecting two different sorts of skills all in one trait, which would promote build diversity. There can be so many better ways to construct your character, and admit it, 10% more damage is far less interesting than a trait that shoots lightning when you use specific skills. Traits can be fun and practical, but most importantly, traits should allow for interesting skill tweaking that not only defines your chosen “profession build”, but should also allow for more diverse builds through skill combination allowance.

Sure, GW2 doesn’t have that combining a deck of cards feel that the GW1 skills had, but why shouldn’t it. I mean if there are good traits that allow for interesting turret builds and others for elixir builds, then that’s good, but a trait like: “create a poison cloud whenever you drink an elixir or place a turret”, well such a trait will open path ways to create a turret/elixir build instead of one or the other.

tonyl.5063:

I think what is REALLY missing from combat isn’t so much the lack of defined tank and healer roles, it’s the lack of the synergy within a group that you get in other games. What real benefit do you have of bringing my warrior over a thief in this game? Where does a Necromancer get his spot to shine?

Look at FFXI, who for as much of a boring grind the game was, they had some good ideas. Rogues would use an ability combo, they’d use sneak attack which was a guaranteed crit, with trick attack that transfers all threat to the person in their group they stood behind… So what would happen is someone would pull, and get positioned so the mob would be facing him, with his back to the tank, and the rogue would stand behind the tank, he’d use that combo and give the tank a HUGE lead on threat, which would let the group safely do a skillchain combo… Then what do we have in this game? A buff that you should put up anyway, and skill combos, maybe dispel people in your group?

You say there’s a lot of teamwork and a lot of opportunity to work together as a team, I say you’ve never played a game where you TRULY work as a team.

Well, you mentioned EQ2 as a shining example in one of your previous posts, and I played that game quite successfully for quite a while.

The main difference between EQ2 and GW2 is that your role in EQ2 is set at character creation while GW2 allows you to switch roles based on character customization. My Inquisitor in EQ2 was always a healer (even if he also provided some DPS and utility). My Thief in this game can be a tank with AE damage or a single-target glass cannon depending on my character customization choices.

The roles are still there, but they’re not defined by class. I can’t tell you why you should take a Warrior over a Thief unless you specify how each character is built.

Azjenco.9425:

I really hope this game stays miles away from the old trinity system. As a healer, I can honestly say it’s boring as hell. Standing in the back pressing 4,4,4,5,4,4,4,4,5,4,4,6,4,4,5… isn’t engaging gameplay. The trinity is lame, and GW2 needs to stay away from it.

As opposed to my warrior which is pretty much 5,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,2…

Again, having a trinity role doesn’t make boring gameplay, bad game design does.

You don’t want to avoid a trinity, you want to avoid only havng very limited combat abilities, which, honestly, how do you not realize that you’re even more limited in this game than other games?

Maybe trinity system is better. Maybe no-trinity is better.

Actually, it doesn’t matter. GW2 is NOT a trinity game.

That has been the intention since the start and so far that’s what I see that’s been happening.

If you wanna play trinity games so much, then play trinity games. No one stopping you.

We can argue here all day about which system is better. I for one believe that not one is better than the other, they’re just different with pros and cons.

But what’s the point of arguing for the pros of the trinity system in the forums of the game that purposely moved away from trinity system to be different? You knew from the start before you bought the game that its not gonna be a trinity system. They SAID IT so. If you didn’t like it, then you shouldn’t have bought the game.

Well because reading comprehension will tell you that this thread isn’t over wanting a trinity or not, it’s about wanting some kind of actual “role” in combat, something that makes your class unique and has something that it really brings to the group that nobody else does, you know… Actual interesting class design…

But a lot of people in their gung-ho “trinity is the worst thing ever” they blame a lot of things 100% unrelated to a trinity on the trinity, like the guy talking about how healing is just spamming the same button over and over, when really if you’re playing like that, ever, it’s bad game design. Which the sad part is how much his example actually mirrors playing in GW2, yet somehow nobody notices?

tonyl.5063:

Azjenco.9425:

I really hope this game stays miles away from the old trinity system. As a healer, I can honestly say it’s boring as hell. Standing in the back pressing 4,4,4,5,4,4,4,4,5,4,4,6,4,4,5… isn’t engaging gameplay. The trinity is lame, and GW2 needs to stay away from it.

As opposed to my warrior which is pretty much 5,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,2…

Again, having a trinity role doesn’t make boring gameplay, bad game design does.

You don’t want to avoid a trinity, you want to avoid only havng very limited combat abilities, which, honestly, how do you not realize that you’re even more limited in this game than other games?

Which is exactly why I proposed something different in my full post, which you just ignored. But you feel the game should revert to old tropes just because ANet have figured out their combat systems yet. And yes, the trinity is terrible and broken, period.

The reason I only use 4,4,4,5,4,4,4,4,5,4,4,6,4,4,5 as a healer is because it’s the only healing skills I’ve got. And I can’t deviate, because if I start using other combat skills, well, then I wont be fulfilling my role as a healer, now would I, and the party will start dying. Sad, pathetic pigeonholing game style.

The reason you’re using only 5,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,2 is because the other skills aren’t yet interesting, and the enemies aren’t yet fully fleshed out to allow you to use the others. And yes, you should be using all skills as you play, because you’re skills in GW2 aught to be interesting to use in different situations, which ANet just hasn’t pulled off yet. Unlike the trinity where you only need to use your few role skills in group situations.

As I proposed in my initial post, traits really need to be reworked, because they just aren’t fun and don’t promote interesting builds. But also, the weapon skills need some extra work, they need to function in a way where you use them differently against different enemy types, and also open different ways of fighting in different situations.

There are three roles to play at the moment, Control, support and damage, damage being the most widely played. And there is a reason for it, the control and support roles do not feel as if they have enough impact on fights, this is from a pve dungeon perspective.

I play Control on my warrior, Support on my guardian and dps on my ranger, here are some examples builds.

Control:
http://www.noxxic.com/gw2/warrior/control/pve/core-build-and-traits

Support:
http://www.noxxic.com/gw2/guardian/support/pve/core-build-and-traits

Damage:
http://www.noxxic.com/gw2/ranger/damage/pve/core-build-and-traits

The problem is not that there is no roles, because the actual roles work well. Control can knock down and disable a target effectively, support can save peoples butts more often than many would care to mention, and damage does damage…

Problem is that the roles, being control mainly because a well played support is fairly good and brings a lot too the group. control however, as i said can lock down a target, that is the problem right there “a” target. While in Arah locking down an illusionist, is very helpful, you could argue nuking it down faster would be better, I would argue that keeping it perma locked is better and killing it with no risk.

However when it comes to large groups locking down one npc is less effective, and another issue is the anti-CC mechanic, i wrote a guide about this during beta that can be found here:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/48714-pve-control-defiant-indignant-guide/

with the current anti control, means that to control a boss effectively, you need to have two controllers, this will seriously bring down your damage, with the weapon choices needed to effectively control targets.

The group I run with, we run with one support, one controller and three damage. Pretty much the same as the trinity set up. We have found all of the content very easy to do with this set up, you could do things faster with all damage however, and that is the issue, the support and controller do not bring enough compare to damage, other than safety, at the cost of speed, and with NPC health being so high, speed sure does feel more valuable right now.

—Solution—
Make more mobs like Illusionist, in a npc pull of 3, having 1 target that is intended to be controlled would bring more value too the control roles. But at the same time a group of heavy damage set up, would aim to nuke that target down first.

Add a trait to control builds such as mace for warriors, to have it remove 2 stacks of anti cc rather than one upon applying a CC effect. This may be over the top, but you could also put it on the 3rd swing of a mace, as in the 3rd swing will remove 1 defiant.

You could also add such traits to the guardians two handed hammer, add it to the current chill trait, again this could be done for the rangers long bow as well via traits.

Never mind that in open world PVE if you attack one mob you often end up with 2+. And with short effect, long cooldown CC you can’t really lock the rest while focusing on one. End result is that you go heavy on AOE and perhaps kite (depending on your AOE source being melee or ranged, tho even melee can always benefit from circle strafing the mob group). Attempting CC or support just makes you intimately familiar with the down state.

You dont have to have a group of pro’s that have specific roles to finish a dungeon. How is that a bad thing?
Different classes DO have different roles and skills that can come in very handy to help finish dungeons alot quicker. They are not necessary, but if you know how to play your character and work as a team it is very handy. I’ll give you an example. I’m a thief, and I’m hella squishy. I’m a full out damage dealing build. When you have a group in a dungeon that is pretty tough such as there being alot of mobs around if you walk in you agro them all. I havent played all of the other classes yet, but after the team rushes in and we all die a few times you have to come up with some better ideas and having scorpian wire to pull in single targets to make a lighter load is very helpful and comes in very handy. It’s a nice skill that the thief has but being squishy as I am someone else has to take the agro. Another role is when we are fighting a boss and little mobs are spawning and being a nuisance, I’m taking those out but as soon as that boss is below 50% Being a thief is the time to shine and lay on the high damage and become the finisher. Thats just a small example that in GW2, not every class has the same roles and can do the same things. Yes, I can solo in PVE quite well as pretty much every class can. There are certain roles that classes do convert to when in group settings. Another good example of a thief role is the reviver, being able to go invis and revive the party is very helpful in FotM. What i’m saying is that the fantastic thing about GW2 is that yes, you dont need to play specific roles to be able to play PVE and do dungeons. But classes do have advantages and disadvantages that if you know how to play your class well, then you will be finding yourself playing some of these roles with/without realizing it. They are not the standard trinity roles but knowing your characters advantages/disadvantages makes things go alot smoother and quicker so you can get back in that dungeon and do it again.

I been running araund gathering inspiration and knowledge tobe able to point what exacly is wrong.

First of all, i noticed, the current system is quite decent on its own, and there are many things classes can do, but if a class wants to take up a “role” like support, it is set to stone, how he needs to be and play it.
Basically lets less costumization then a trinity game. (dont bother imaginating games for example)
Like an ele can support quite awesomely, but to be most usefull you usually take auramancer, and there are no other builds that are usefull as that one. Basically it makes you play 1 build that is usefull.
Not to mention even the most “set to support” roles are based on dmg spells.
You are actually wasting nukes to get a slight effect that is usefull.

For example : Fire or Shock shield is quite good, if you can apply it on ppl that are getting hit by many mobs, but to give others that effect you need to make a combo, that is hard to execute (when mobs constantly 2 hit you, and you are kiting, and dodging…you use anything you can just to stay alive).
And in 80% of cases you execute the skills by accident (unless you are seriously expert and well synced with your team…by that time the game gets extremely boring anyway)
and are basically wasted on situations you dont even need them.

Not to mention the 90% of support comes from stuff you can apply on ppl that atleast care or know what combos look like.
For example thief-s shadow refuge traited to heal….quite a decent save tool….but the 90% of ppl FULLY ignore it or dont care….or even spread out, even if you yell it on ts………..

Putting that aside the lack of concrete combat roles makes the instances feel like , trying to stay alive all the time, instead of fighting.
Mobs have immortally tough. But they do 2 hit anyone. Or not hurt at all. Even the most experianced players cant really explain or know why this works this way.

If Anet wanted a decent and a bit more realistic combat system, (with this dodging and all) they should have made it tactical instead of extreme fast.
If you want to deploy tactic in a fight, a mob that 2 hits you cant be a part of it. Because it all will dephend on : can you avoid it?
Instead of actuall combat.
I seriously feel many times…i just spam skills, and still sucseed if i can stay alive meantime.

The more combat roles there are the more complex the game gets.
There are many fight in dungeons, that are tactical and have to split team member roles, and use certaint skills or utilize your class skills, but sadly it still becomes a fight for survieval in the end mostly… -_-

CaptainCanada, pls edit it a bit, i could hardly force myself to read it. Spread the text.
If you say, we dont need specific roles, you are still propably at the WoW- trinity setup….if you played Gw1 you would know there are like 10000000 roles you can take up in combat. The point is to concentrate on 1 . And not spread all the skills all ower the weapons and traits.

On the topic of cc ing….there are many times i get cc ed by mobs for like …3-6-10 seconds…usually die after that anyway. and its totally kittening seriously kitten Yo uare sitting on the floor screaming and hitting the keayboard not able to react to anything, but kittennig die.
I was like the game has a role like cc? Must be seriously kittened up….i dont think it should be a role. It like extremely kitten in pvp. In pve…ok it is as it should be, it cant be spammed anyway.
But i do agree on the most part of the solution Kellie.

I think in an attempt to make things accessible, Anet simply made classes too shallow. The combat suffers as a result as they had to design around such shallow design, that’s why it’s dodge or die.

I don’t think it can be fixed. They’d have to redo the classes. But yeah going from 2 classes with hundreds of choice to…..I’ll be nice and just say “this”, is a gigantic step backwards for not only Guild Wars, but for the genre.

Nekroseth.5186:

Anet “destroyed” trinity for a good reson, but in a bad way.
They removed roles, but instead of upgrading the system, they downgraded it.
They should have give all classes all roles, instead of none.

i agree completely. actualy thats what i was expecting. is there anything in this game that anet wanted to get rid off and we all agreed, and then they overdid it and actually made it worse and now we all are like “wtf anet?”

Azjenco.9425:

I really hope this game stays miles away from the old trinity system. As a healer, I can honestly say it’s boring as hell. Standing in the back pressing 4,4,4,5,4,4,4,4,5,4,4,6,4,4,5… isn’t engaging gameplay. The trinity is lame, and GW2 needs to stay away from it.

Sounds to me like you are playing wrong. Most MMOs out there, I have 3-4 hotbars full of skills I use. Whether I’m a healer, tank, or support. Guild wars, unfortunately, gives me 1-0 with the occassional F-keys. /yawn.

Honestly, it amazes me how many people think that other MMOs are so boring and simplistic, but show that they’ve never played one in their life. Or at least never played it correctly. If I were to tank on WoW, I’ve got 4 hotbars filled with skills, equipment that have on-use abilities, items, etc. Does that mean that everyone has to use all those tools? No. But good players do.

Heck, even on TOR, there was a huge outcry when it went f2p because they were limiting non-subscribers to only 2 hotbars(2 sets of 1 to = keys) because it simply wasn’t enough. And yet here, we get huge limitations, no clear roles, no real tanking or healing, and somehow people have convinced themselves that this game is more in-depth and skill based.

By that logic, I guess Legend of Zelda: Windwaker is one of the most hardcore, in-depth, and skill-based games of all time since one button did just about anything and everything.

But that’s okay, keep spamming 1-2 buttons instead while rolling around on the floor once in awhile. Then if something even looks at you, just run away from it. Repeat until it dies. Much more strategic than silly things like managing aggro tables, maintaining mana levels for healing, or even handling wild and crazy mechanics like those found in raids that makes a group wipe over and over and over again until everyone figures it out.

dodge is not enough to make game skill based.

btw when they said skill based i tought that they meant im gonna have to decide in milisecond what skill to use to react to what is going around me. well, this just doesnt work on any boss. they have im imune to anything buff… when you add to this the fact that they one hit you, only thing you can do is go ranged and autoattack him to death in 15 minutes… way to go anet with the “skill based” idea.

i want to use my only cc thats not on CD to save knock downed team mate from getting defeated while other team members rush to res him!!!! bosses are infinite bunker guardians

solution: give us a mechanic to remove imunity buff or let us stack cc’s when every 5th (for example) cc trigers.

the fights now are just BORING and two dodges is not enough to make it skill based!!!

To be honest, I come NOWHERE CLOSE to only press 2 keys as some suggest-in fact, I rely on every single skill available to me to survive, and that with a Guardian, which compared to many professions, is rather “simple” to use. In short, either some of you are not using all skills/traits available to you, simply not experienced enough, or just exaggerating/trolling-with all due respect, and forgive me if I am coming across as too harsh in my statement above.

GW2 is not about “two dodge-combat”; not at all, save for perhaps a signet heavy build, but even in those, you really do way mord than wildly mashing buttons if you know what you are doing.

I miss earning skills like in GW1. Nothing was more rewarding than unlocking an awesome rare skill from a huge boss. As far as the roles go, the trinity is here, but its really not emphasized, and not really good either. Whats emphasized is playing what you like.

earning a skill in gw was kind of like a learning curve. oh, is that what that skill does? im getting it.

Agreed. They kind of talked abaut, getting skill points and unlocking them will cost points, so it takes more points to unlock “elite” skills…..
The thout is good, its almost the same as Gw1-s but the implementation is bad.
Why? There are barely any skills.

Besides, you cant make builds with skills like in gw1. You can only variate 3 skills from a list of like 20. And the 4 th has like a list of 4 ? Seriously dissapointment…..You want wariety from that? Hardly…..
You might could make decent roles from a list of 100 atleast.
Considering you get like 10 more weapons and you can variate the first 5 skills to… -_- and not have a list of 20 .

Basically all that you do comes from weapon and utility. The traits should be some more indepth tree, that offest costumization to a global scale…not to specific skills…..
They simply narrows down your 20-20 skills to like 8-10……….