Guild Wars 2

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Absconditus.6804:

Bear.3689:

Absconditus.6804:

I vote we also complain about physical bursts of damage as well.

Go make your own thread about this.

Why would I? It’s as ridiculous as making topics about Condition Damage bursts. They both exist, the fact that they are bursts means they can be avoided.

Wrong. A well timed dodge, block, invuln etc can mitigate a physical burst that is telegraphed UNLESS some other factor flags that hit as unblockable, but even then most can be evaded in those cases provided you still have enough dodges left in you.

Condi burst on the other hand is a non-telegraphed massive stack of damage types that both cover each other and tick off LARGE damage at such a fast rate that you can insta die to it before you could ever try to hit your cleanse after the fact. Furthermore if you somehow managed to eat enough of the damage and live to hit the cleanse and got maybe half of them cleared, you’re probably down you’re condi cleanse and will certainly get hit with more condi damage right after to finish you off. And this is all provided you even had a clue that you were about to be condi-burst.

Fact is condi damage should never be “burst” damage.

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

Diak Atoli.2085:

Knuckle Joe.7408:

Every time one of these posts come out, people (I assume avid condi players) always say stuff like “you don’t have condi cleanse?” as if the stupidly imbalanced condi classes can’t reapply the them isntantly.

The problem with condi is that you got stupid shutdown capabilities WHILE also doing stupid high damage, which is easy to apply/reapply. Most of the cleanse skills take away 2-3 condis at max, while the ones that remove all of them are under long-ass cooldowns. How are you suppossed to remove cripple, chill, burn, poison, bleed, torment etc, with your modest condi cleansing?

You don’t have to worry about that with power built enemies. You just dodge, dodge, dodge, (you can literally pull out vigor out your ass at this point of the game) a few blocks here and there and that’s it. Stuns are rare tbh and most of the time hard to apply.

5-7 stacks of bleed alone and you are already doing damage equivalent to some bread and butter power skills, each second.

Condi classes should not have so many crippling condis, they should have only damage ones.

I’d like to address several things. Disclaimer: This is merely a set of examples and observations. Interpret as you will.

1. The same skills and tactics used to avoid power-based damage also avoid the majority of condition-based applicators. Without those applicators, condition builds don’t do direct damage, nor apply damaging conditions.

2a. A Condition Druid; running full Sinister’s, Runes of the Krait, a Sigil of Malice, and food; has +33% bleeding damage on top of 1,817 condition damage.
- A single stack of bleeding does 174.25 damage-per-second.
- Five to seven stacks deal 871.25 to 1,219.25 damage-per-second.

2b. A Power Ranger; running full Berserker’s, Runes of the Ranger, a Sigil of Force, and food; has 2614 power, 58% critical chance, and 225.33% critical damage.
- Rapid Fire deals a minimum of 3,734.75 to 9,440.98 damage.
- Rapid Fire is a 2.5 second channel, so damage-per-second is 1,493.9 to 3,776.39
Note: This damage is against 2500 Armor. Soldier Professions using Berserker’s, Viper’s, Sinister’s, etc have a Armor rating of 2271.

3. There are no condition professions. Power-based builds have access to the same inhibiting conditions as condition-based builds.
- Afore-mentioned Power Ranger has access to Immobilize, Cripple, and Slow; the same conditions the Condition Druid has.

Now to be a cheeky fellow.

The afore-mentioned Power Ranger also has condition cleansing on a 20s CD (4 conditions), a 20s CD (2 conditions), a 32s CD (2 conditions), a 40s CD (2 conditions), and a 48s CD (2 conditions). These also apply Immobilize, Cripple, and Slow while being stun breaks and evades.

Your build can’t do that?

There’s also a slight stipulation in those two scenarios. The power ranger is locked into a channel skill to perform that while the druid has spent whatever cast to apply those bleeds up front, after which the druid can dodge, heal, apply more damage, etc. Of couse, those channels can be sped up by quickness.

Another consideration is that there are combo finishers that can ruin condi damage (light field) while the corresponding finishers are a bit more limited (dark fields).

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

Yeah, I know, it’s baffling really.

A general misconception seems to be that conditions just take form spontaneously. Perhaps viruses are spreading conditions?

This leads me to believe that my earlier theory is correct and a lot of people simply don’t pay attention to the attacks that apply conditions because the immediate, power damage they take from those is low and then they’re shocked and amazed when conditions down them.

Pifil.5193:

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

Yeah, I know, it’s baffling really.

A general misconception seems to be that conditions just take form spontaneously. Perhaps viruses are spreading conditions?

This leads me to believe that my earlier theory is correct and a lot of people simply don’t pay attention to the attacks that apply conditions because the immediate, power damage they take from those is low and then they’re shocked and amazed when conditions down them.

I’m more baffled that you think any skill that applies conditions is as visible as ..let’s say Eviscerate, during the general chaos and visual effects of melee. My toon has to leap, spin and land one of the slowest and most telegraphed attacks in the whole game while my opponent does what…raise a hand? Two?
This theory of yours doesn’t really have any legs to stand on i’m afraid.

Lol, pay attention on a condito spam build which spam aoe conditions with conditions on proc.
Most classes have 2 dodge.
You can dodge a mesmer shatter or a warrior f1, but you can’t do the same with a condi build which spam many things which put condi, and as said before lets talk about animations… really, condi build is braindead.

It’s important to consider that condition damage can be cleaned before having the chance to apply the damage, a condi class could pour out their rotation to get high bleed stacks worth many thousands of damaged cleared by 1 condition clear.

Absconditus.6804:

You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some.

Just wanted to comment, but how much resistance application is out there? I know a lot of sources for Protection, which accounts for why Resistance trumps Protection…because it’s a rarer boon application. Granted, I’m not versed in raid which may have perma-resistance, but that isn’t a common circumstance.

Havok.6073:

Pifil.5193:

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

Yeah, I know, it’s baffling really.

A general misconception seems to be that conditions just take form spontaneously. Perhaps viruses are spreading conditions?

This leads me to believe that my earlier theory is correct and a lot of people simply don’t pay attention to the attacks that apply conditions because the immediate, power damage they take from those is low and then they’re shocked and amazed when conditions down them.

I’m more baffled that you think any skill that applies conditions is as visible as ..let’s say Eviscerate, during the general chaos and visual effects of melee. My toon has to leap, spin and land one of the slowest and most telegraphed attacks in the whole game while my opponent does what…raise a hand? Two?
This theory of yours doesn’t really have any legs to stand on i’m afraid.

If you’re talking about big telegraphed attacks then why not talk about Flurry? That’s a big condi warrior finisher applies a bunch of bleeds very telegraphed, roots the caster and channels.

If you’re talking about an attack that just raises a hand then what about the mantras that have just that, mesmer Power Spike, for example.

You seem to be implying that there’s some kind of rule here where conditions are applied through sneaky attacks but power attacks are somehow more honest. There isn’t, big attacks tend to have more obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they do Power or Condition damage. Small attacks like weapon auto attacks tend to have less obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they apply a single condition or do a moderate amount of damage.

Yeah, I think your lending weight to my theory not disproving it in any way.

Pifil.5193:

Havok.6073:

Pifil.5193:

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

Yeah, I know, it’s baffling really.

A general misconception seems to be that conditions just take form spontaneously. Perhaps viruses are spreading conditions?

This leads me to believe that my earlier theory is correct and a lot of people simply don’t pay attention to the attacks that apply conditions because the immediate, power damage they take from those is low and then they’re shocked and amazed when conditions down them.

I’m more baffled that you think any skill that applies conditions is as visible as ..let’s say Eviscerate, during the general chaos and visual effects of melee. My toon has to leap, spin and land one of the slowest and most telegraphed attacks in the whole game while my opponent does what…raise a hand? Two?
This theory of yours doesn’t really have any legs to stand on i’m afraid.

If you’re talking about big telegraphed attacks then why not talk about Flurry? That’s a big condi warrior finisher applies a bunch of bleeds very telegraphed, roots the caster and channels.

If you’re talking about an attack that just raises a hand then what about the mantras that have just that, mesmer Power Spike, for example.

You seem to be implying that there’s some kind of rule here where conditions are applied through sneaky attacks but power attacks are somehow more honest. There isn’t, big attacks tend to have more obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they do Power or Condition damage. Small attacks like weapon auto attacks tend to have less obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they apply a single condition or do a moderate amount of damage.

Yeah, I think your lending weight to my theory not disproving it in any way.

Think what you will, the majority of condi is applied without a big animation and you know it. Care to tell me how many conditions are applied through Signet of Spite? And how long is that animation again? Take your time. Oh and don’t take Warrior as a condi example, it’s the least successful class in applying condis, it’s not even in the current meta, and you know it.

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

In WvW actually. There was no standing against a necro condi/epidemic bomb and there is no telegraph for that. One second you are standing and the next you’re dead. You were lucky if you had a half second to react to it. And I’m talking this could take out whole groups of people. even in smaller group scenarios, coming up on a condi necro and condi ranger or thief means you’re dead. Full stop.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

In WvW actually. There was no standing against a necro condi/epidemic bomb and there is no telegraph for that. One second you are standing and the next you’re dead. You were lucky if you had a half second to react to it. And I’m talking this could take out whole groups of people. even in smaller group scenarios, coming up on a condi necro and condi ranger or thief means you’re dead. Full stop.

Epidemic relies on first applying conditions on a single given target and then spreading them to others standing close to that target. All of those intitial condition apps applied to the “carrier” had tells or could have been cleansed or avoided to a degree.

While i usually roam (where epidemic is of little use) when I did run with a zerg and found myself layered up with conditions I retreated from the group to cleanse or die. If an epidemic used on me it would not affect everyone else.

The reason it got as powerful as it did before the changes to it was people would IGNORE condition cleanses entirely and rely on resistance. Those individuals than became a liability to the group as the conditions would pile on and be spread.

Havok.6073:

Pifil.5193:

Havok.6073:

Pifil.5193:

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

Yeah, I know, it’s baffling really.

A general misconception seems to be that conditions just take form spontaneously. Perhaps viruses are spreading conditions?

This leads me to believe that my earlier theory is correct and a lot of people simply don’t pay attention to the attacks that apply conditions because the immediate, power damage they take from those is low and then they’re shocked and amazed when conditions down them.

I’m more baffled that you think any skill that applies conditions is as visible as ..let’s say Eviscerate, during the general chaos and visual effects of melee. My toon has to leap, spin and land one of the slowest and most telegraphed attacks in the whole game while my opponent does what…raise a hand? Two?
This theory of yours doesn’t really have any legs to stand on i’m afraid.

If you’re talking about big telegraphed attacks then why not talk about Flurry? That’s a big condi warrior finisher applies a bunch of bleeds very telegraphed, roots the caster and channels.

If you’re talking about an attack that just raises a hand then what about the mantras that have just that, mesmer Power Spike, for example.

You seem to be implying that there’s some kind of rule here where conditions are applied through sneaky attacks but power attacks are somehow more honest. There isn’t, big attacks tend to have more obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they do Power or Condition damage. Small attacks like weapon auto attacks tend to have less obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they apply a single condition or do a moderate amount of damage.

Yeah, I think your lending weight to my theory not disproving it in any way.

Think what you will, the majority of condi is applied without a big animation and you know it. Care to tell me how many conditions are applied through Signet of Spite? And how long is that animation again? Take your time. Oh and don’t take Warrior as a condi example, it’s the least successful class in applying condis, it’s not even in the current meta, and you know it.

Think what you will, but the majority of conditions are applied with just as big an animation as the majority of power damage and you know it.

No signet has any animation worth talking about and you know it, regardless of whether they’re giving you a power boost for a power spike, stunning or knocking down your foe or applying conditions. Also Signet of Spite is not even used in the current meta builds so by the same rules that you used to dismiss warrior’s Flurry it means it’s not relevant and you know it.

It’s easy to pick a single skill and claim that that’s somehow representative of all skills so let’s see, let’s take thief backstab? Backstab has a massive power damage spike without any visible animation at all and you know it. If I follow your tactics, from that single attack I can state that no power skills have any visible animations at all and you know it.

Wow that “and you know it” stuff works just as well (or badly) for me as it does for you. And you know it.

Pifil.5193:

Havok.6073:

Pifil.5193:

Havok.6073:

Pifil.5193:

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

Yeah, I know, it’s baffling really.

A general misconception seems to be that conditions just take form spontaneously. Perhaps viruses are spreading conditions?

This leads me to believe that my earlier theory is correct and a lot of people simply don’t pay attention to the attacks that apply conditions because the immediate, power damage they take from those is low and then they’re shocked and amazed when conditions down them.

I’m more baffled that you think any skill that applies conditions is as visible as ..let’s say Eviscerate, during the general chaos and visual effects of melee. My toon has to leap, spin and land one of the slowest and most telegraphed attacks in the whole game while my opponent does what…raise a hand? Two?
This theory of yours doesn’t really have any legs to stand on i’m afraid.

If you’re talking about big telegraphed attacks then why not talk about Flurry? That’s a big condi warrior finisher applies a bunch of bleeds very telegraphed, roots the caster and channels.

If you’re talking about an attack that just raises a hand then what about the mantras that have just that, mesmer Power Spike, for example.

You seem to be implying that there’s some kind of rule here where conditions are applied through sneaky attacks but power attacks are somehow more honest. There isn’t, big attacks tend to have more obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they do Power or Condition damage. Small attacks like weapon auto attacks tend to have less obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they apply a single condition or do a moderate amount of damage.

Yeah, I think your lending weight to my theory not disproving it in any way.

Think what you will, the majority of condi is applied without a big animation and you know it. Care to tell me how many conditions are applied through Signet of Spite? And how long is that animation again? Take your time. Oh and don’t take Warrior as a condi example, it’s the least successful class in applying condis, it’s not even in the current meta, and you know it.

Think what you will, but the majority of conditions are applied with just as big an animation as the majority of power damage and you know it.

No signet has any animation worth talking about and you know it, regardless of whether they’re giving you a power boost for a power spike, stunning or knocking down your foe or applying conditions. Also Signet of Spite is not even used in the current meta builds so by the same rules that you used to dismiss warrior’s Flurry it means it’s not relevant and you know it.

It’s easy to pick a single skill and claim that that’s somehow representative of all skills so let’s see, let’s take thief backstab? Backstab has a massive power damage spike without any visible animation at all and you know it. If I follow your tactics, from that single attack I can state that no power skills have any visible animations at all and you know it.

Wow that “and you know it” stuff works just as well (or badly) for me as it does for you. And you know it.

My bad, you clearly don’t know it.
I really can’t discuss with someone so desperately clinging to his lazy playstyle. Keep thinking that a “condi burst” is something legit. Conditions are meant to be DoTs, they are not working as they should but hey, it’s not me who’s going around as a paper tiger.It’s you, and you know …nah, you don’t. Peace.

I don’t see how people don’t think there are glaring problems here.

1.) You shouldn’t be forced to use condi cleanse ad nauseam to mitigate condition damage with as many sources of condition damage there are, how damaging they are, and how easy it is to stack them. This alone basically breaks the game and controls pvp builds too much. Toughness (not armor, just base toughness) should help mitigate condition damage.

2.) Too much weight in condition builds goes to malice (condition damage), which is asymmetrical with how power builds work and gives condi builds too much versatility in comparison. Although, I think the solution here is to give power more versatility rather than removing it from condi builds. Ferocity and Precision need to be combined.

Pifil.5193:

Havok.6073:

Pifil.5193:

Havok.6073:

Pifil.5193:

Havok.6073:

Pifil.5193:

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

Yeah, I know, it’s baffling really.

A general misconception seems to be that conditions just take form spontaneously. Perhaps viruses are spreading conditions?

This leads me to believe that my earlier theory is correct and a lot of people simply don’t pay attention to the attacks that apply conditions because the immediate, power damage they take from those is low and then they’re shocked and amazed when conditions down them.

I’m more baffled that you think any skill that applies conditions is as visible as ..let’s say Eviscerate, during the general chaos and visual effects of melee. My toon has to leap, spin and land one of the slowest and most telegraphed attacks in the whole game while my opponent does what…raise a hand? Two?
This theory of yours doesn’t really have any legs to stand on i’m afraid.

If you’re talking about big telegraphed attacks then why not talk about Flurry? That’s a big condi warrior finisher applies a bunch of bleeds very telegraphed, roots the caster and channels.

If you’re talking about an attack that just raises a hand then what about the mantras that have just that, mesmer Power Spike, for example.

You seem to be implying that there’s some kind of rule here where conditions are applied through sneaky attacks but power attacks are somehow more honest. There isn’t, big attacks tend to have more obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they do Power or Condition damage. Small attacks like weapon auto attacks tend to have less obvious telegraphs regardless of whether they apply a single condition or do a moderate amount of damage.

Yeah, I think your lending weight to my theory not disproving it in any way.

Think what you will, the majority of condi is applied without a big animation and you know it. Care to tell me how many conditions are applied through Signet of Spite? And how long is that animation again? Take your time. Oh and don’t take Warrior as a condi example, it’s the least successful class in applying condis, it’s not even in the current meta, and you know it.

Think what you will, but the majority of conditions are applied with just as big an animation as the majority of power damage and you know it.

No signet has any animation worth talking about and you know it, regardless of whether they’re giving you a power boost for a power spike, stunning or knocking down your foe or applying conditions. Also Signet of Spite is not even used in the current meta builds so by the same rules that you used to dismiss warrior’s Flurry it means it’s not relevant and you know it.

It’s easy to pick a single skill and claim that that’s somehow representative of all skills so let’s see, let’s take thief backstab? Backstab has a massive power damage spike without any visible animation at all and you know it. If I follow your tactics, from that single attack I can state that no power skills have any visible animations at all and you know it.

Wow that “and you know it” stuff works just as well (or badly) for me as it does for you. And you know it.

My bad, you clearly don’t know it.
I really can’t discuss with someone so desperately clinging to his lazy playstyle. Keep thinking that a “condi burst” is something legit. Conditions are meant to be DoTs, they are not working as they should but hey, it’s not me who’s going around as a paper tiger.It’s you, and you know …nah, you don’t. Peace.

Actually I play power thief and elementalist. Not condi apart from blinds and vulnerability, I just understand the game a bit better than you do. Good job though, you’ve moved onto the “I can’t win so I’m going to declare that you’ve lost because you’re unteachable” stage right on schedule.

Edit in spvp and WvW I mean, in PvE I play everything.

yawn Still yapping i see. Wake me when you get off the soapbox , or you start making sense. In the meantime, enjoy seeing how many people agree with me Go play “everything” , you are going to drown here. Ta.

Leo G.4501:

There’s also a slight stipulation in those two scenarios. The power ranger is locked into a channel skill to perform that while the druid has spent whatever cast to apply those bleeds up front, after which the druid can dodge, heal, apply more damage, etc. Of couse, those channels can be sped up by quickness.

Another consideration is that there are combo finishers that can ruin condi damage (light field) while the corresponding finishers are a bit more limited (dark fields).

True, and now comparing power builds and condition builds begins to become very subjective.

What build is appropriate to compare to another? At which point do you cease to apply external circumstances to the builds? Do you compare every facet of the builds, or only certain parts (As I did in my example)?

Aomine.5012:

Do you really pvp? You should give example better than Ranger’s garbage Longbow.

I don’t believe I ever said I played sPvP or WvW. As such, I’ll say it now: the Budweiser Clydesdales could not drag me into sPvP.

Another stipulation i want to add to those arguing that conditions hold no deception and are as straight forward as power:

• regarding threat, because cleansing cannot always remove everything, every bit of condition, regardless of source, potency or duration, can hinder your efforts to cleanse the most threatening condis. Basically cover condis.

• regarding deception, not all condis are created equal. Someone pop a burst of 15+ stacks of bleed on you, you have exactly 1 second to decide to cleanse and by then, gauge if the duration warrants it, the intensity can be withstood. For all you know, 10 of those stacks could have came from a power bunker ele while 2 stacks coming from that necro in the back waiting fou you start burning cleanses.

Diak Atoli.2085:

I don’t believe I ever said I played sPvP or WvW. As such, I’ll say it now: the Budweiser Clydesdales could not drag me into sPvP.

Well man, no offense but that explains why you’re comparing a longbow power ranger to the unbalanced meta playstyle currently in the game. Numbers always look balanced on paper, but Its like saying pistol whip thief is stupid powerful because it can do “heavy damage, all while stunning the opponent and dodging attacks on a spammable skill”.

You are mistaken… Condi builds require 3 stats just like Power builds…

Power builds: Power, Precision, Ferocity

Condi builds: Condi, Expertise, Precision

Yes… both need precision… Condi builds utilize a lot of “on Crit” effects through specs and runes.

Panda.1967:

You are mistaken… Condi builds require 3 stats just like Power builds…

Power builds: Power, Precision, Ferocity

Condi builds: Condi, Expertise, Precision

Yes… both need precision… Condi builds utilize a lot of “on Crit” effects through specs and runes.

We’ve already rehashed this point.

I won’t say a consensus has been reached about this point, but ultimately, what stats would be deemed “required” is dependent on build and game mode. For example, in WvW, you don’t need precision as sustainability would provide far more via toughness/vitality or for a condi guardian you can get a fair amount of crit% without precision. But again, it can go both ways. If you can manage to attain good enough crit% without devoting gear to precision, you can put those stats on other things for power specs too.

An aside, I personally don’t think expertise is required for condition damage builds. You can likely have passable (or even more favorable) builds by taking traits and/or runes/sigils/food to extend condition duration or just utilize those to apply more condition procs instead.

Counter question, just how many procs out there are direct damage aimed and what stats do they utilize?

I sincerely don’t know why people always think that condi builds absolutely need expertise in order to be a condi build. Yes for a maximizing damage standpoint yes but under normal circumstances a reduced crit rate won’t hurt your DPS enough.

A simple example would be a ranger shortbow or condi mesmer. Give either of them condi damage/toughness/vitality and spec for defensive utility and they’ll outlast any power build, even against a full bunker anything.

And as many people have mentioned, many attacks with condi builds can inflict 3-5 conditions on a single attack and the damaging conditions are usually covered by a single stack of vulnerability or cripple.

There has to be a universal armor against condition damage. One type of damage shouldn’t have a means of mitigation while another doesn’t. Imagine if the armor stat didn’t exist and all direct damage inflicted their full amounts. That’s what conditions do unless you’re on of the few classes who have traits that reduce condi damage.

Conditions shouldn´t BURST, DoT instead.
Toughness should reduce overall DAMAGE .

Conditions shouldn´t BURST, DoT instead.

Why? And they still are doing their damage over time.

If someone lands 3-4 strong abilities on your be it power or condi you should take significant damage in a timely manner. i.e eating a 10~15K spike from power or eating a spike from condi and ticking down 2~3k for the next 6 seconds.

There has to be a universal armor against condition damage. One type of damage shouldn’t have a means of mitigation while another doesn’t. Imagine if the armor stat didn’t exist and all direct damage inflicted their full amounts. That’s what conditions do unless you’re on of the few classes who have traits that reduce condi damage.

You mitigate power damage and their are a few sources of negation. You negate condi damage and there are a few sources of mitigation. The last 2 sentences are an awful analogy that completely disregards duration and cleanses.

Andaras.9317:

I sincerely don’t know why people always think that condi builds absolutely need expertise in order to be a condi build. Yes for a maximizing damage standpoint yes but under normal circumstances a reduced crit rate won’t hurt your DPS enough.

A simple example would be a ranger shortbow or condi mesmer. Give either of them condi damage/toughness/vitality and spec for defensive utility and they’ll outlast any power build, even against a full bunker anything.

And as many people have mentioned, many attacks with condi builds can inflict 3-5 conditions on a single attack and the damaging conditions are usually covered by a single stack of vulnerability or cripple.

There has to be a universal armor against condition damage. One type of damage shouldn’t have a means of mitigation while another doesn’t. Imagine if the armor stat didn’t exist and all direct damage inflicted their full amounts. That’s what conditions do unless you’re on of the few classes who have traits that reduce condi damage.

Going to assume you meant precision in the first part there considering that you are talking about reduced crit chance instead of reduced condition duration…

Sure, a condi build can trade Precision for toughness/vitality and be more tanky, but guess what, so can a Power build. Both builds have 3 optimal stats to build up for their highest damage, and despite what the vocal minority thinks, those 3 stats are not absolute “requirements”. A Power build running Power, Ferocity, Toughness/Vitality can be just as durable as a Condi build running Condi, Expertise, Toughness/Vitality. Precision is a very optional stat for both.

Should condition damage be mitigated by a stat? yes and no… Ultimately this question comes down to a comparison of raw DPS vs mitigation. For condition damage to continue to ignore normal forms of mitigation, realistic top Condition DPS from a single source should be equivalent to the average of realistic top Power DPS vs no mitigation and Power DPS vs highest possible sustained mitigation from a single source. That said, I have no doubt that condition DPS far exceeds that average currently. And yes, it is important that the comparisons be from singular sources (Note: single source meaning 1 player, not 1 skill or item.), the instant you add in a second source in your balance comparison, you throw the whole concept out the window. It’s not hard to have multiple sources of Condi damage far exceed Power DPS, similarly sustained mitigation from multiple sources can easily far exceed the sustained mitigation from a single source, likewise multiple sources of Power DPS can exceed Condi damage as well. That’s really just common sense, but as history has shown, common sense isn’t really all that common and people will inevitably complain about something while using examples that ignore common sense.

The reason I bring this up. A lot of people seem to be under the misguided belief that Condi builds can easily stack 15-30+ conditions with Condition Damage alone. This is simply not true, outside of a few extreme circumstances (such as the upcomming Mirage spec for Mesmer’s with Staff ambush and 3 clones, which can reach ~22 stacks of Confusion before they start falling off without any duration). Most Condi builds however struggle to even reach 10 stacks of any conditions within the base duration of their conditions. This is why expertise is needed for Condi builds, they need increased condition duration to obtain those high stacks that people complain about, just like Power builds need Ferocity to hit their extreme damage spikes. And, no using foods does not circumvent the need for expertise, condition duration foods are still a source of expertise, if your using foods to get your condition duration instead of stating expertise on gear, you are STILL stating expertise, the only difference is one source is more permanent than the other. Seriously, how hard is it for some people to grasp this simple fact. It’s like eating an apple pie and then claiming that you don’t eat apples, no matter how you try to rationalize it, the fact remains you are eating apples.

Cont…

Cont…

Some might try to argue “oh, but Toughness/Vitality to Condi damage/duration traits exist”… lets look at that real quick…
Gurdian: 10%Power to Condi Damage…
Ranger: 7% Vitality to Expertise…
Mesmer: 10% Toughness to Condi Damage…
Elementalist: 10% Toughness to Power, 7% Precision to Ferocity, 10% Toughness to Condi Damage…
Engineer: 5% Power to Vitality & Ferocity, 10% Toughness to Power…
Thief: 10% Precision to Ferocity…
Necromancer: 13% Precision to Condi Damage, 7-14% Toughness to Power…
Warrior: 10% Power to Vitality, 7% Precision to Expertise, 10% Toughness to Power, 7-14% Precision to Ferocity…
Revenant: 7% Toughness to Healing Power…
I don’t know about you, but, that’s a lot of Power, Precision, and Ferocity in there… not to mention the percentages are on the low end, you’re not going to be getting a lot of value from these traits, most of them are competing with more valuable traits or located on undesirable specs.

All in all, the simple truth is, both Power & Condi builds have 3 optimal damage stats, one of which is shared between the two. All three stats are NOT required for either build and they can both drop one for a defensive stat with minimal impact. All the tricks available for “dropping stats on Condi builds” exist for Power builds as well and are just as effective and abundant. The only real issue is balance of damage and the question of mitigation. Stat distribution is perfectly fine since both have their 3 optimal damage stats.

To Power builds a crit is a massive damage spike, to a Condi build a crit is a few bonus condition stacks. Point for point, precision may look more valuable to Power than it is to Condi, but those bonus condtions can stack up quickly. In fact, for a condition build you really want to push that crit chance as far as you can to get those conditions to stack up quicker. For a Power build, you can reasonably go several hits without critting and not see a major dip in your DPS, but for a condi build, you could potentially lose half ore more of your condition stacks during a dry streak, that’s easily a 50+% DPS loss. Of course, it goes without saying that you don’t want to max out your precision at the cost of your condition damage, and you can minimize your DPS loss with good expertise, granted high expertise & high precision combined can result in some large stack counts. Condition builds really have more min-maxing to their stats than Power in all honesty.

The biggest issue with condi is how it is applied. In a power build, the majority of the skills you have to physical hit your opponent. Your opponent can block, dodge, stack armor, reflect, etc. With condi, the majority of it is applied by aoes. Its a brain-dead meta.

Look at quantify. Every single class, with the exception of Guard, has a condi build as the top dps/meta. Thats an issue on the raid/pve/fractal side of things. On the wvw side, i call it the chicken crap specs. You have a bunch of front line guards, with the rest of the zerg backline spamming condis. And roaming? A large majority of roamers are condi. And that ‘tactic’ consists of spamming condis and running around/stealth/etc like a chicken with your head cut off hoping you can spam condis enough that your opponent runs outta cleanses.

I know why Anet is going the condi route: Condi is a way that eliminates issues with their hardware, where ping connection, lag, etc which affect power players way way more than condi.

The biggest issue with condi is how it is applied. In a power build, the majority of the skills you have to physical hit your opponent. Your opponent can block, dodge, stack armor, reflect, etc. With condi, the majority of it is applied by aoes. Its a brain-dead meta.

Both damage types need to hit. Both suffer from your list of stuff, block etc. Both have a bunch of single target and aoe attacks. Trying to say one has more of one is a bad argument. because it isnt true.

mulzi.8273:

The biggest issue with condi is how it is applied. In a power build, the majority of the skills you have to physical hit your opponent. Your opponent can block, dodge, stack armor, reflect, etc. With condi, the majority of it is applied by aoes. Its a brain-dead meta.

Look at quantify. Every single class, with the exception of Guard, has a condi build as the top dps/meta. Thats an issue on the raid/pve/fractal side of things. On the wvw side, i call it the chicken crap specs. You have a bunch of front line guards, with the rest of the zerg backline spamming condis. And roaming? A large majority of roamers are condi. And that ‘tactic’ consists of spamming condis and running around/stealth/etc like a chicken with your head cut off hoping you can spam condis enough that your opponent runs outta cleanses.

I know why Anet is going the condi route: Condi is a way that eliminates issues with their hardware, where ping connection, lag, etc which affect power players way way more than condi.

You made the claim that the majority of AOE attacks are condition based. Can you provide evidence of this?

I would point out that cleave is considered AOE s example and the majority of weapon skills with cleave favor power. A skill does not have to be ground targeted to be AOE. AOE is defined as attacks that damage multiple enemies in a given area. Drop the hammer, as example damages 5 foes in a given area, that is AOE.

To ground the ground targeted and persistent subset of AOE type damage. We have traps, wells, marks and things like meteor shower and the like.

DH Traps are AOE , Power based.

Ranger traps tend to be condition.

Thief traps a mix.

Majority of Necr wells andmarks to to condition based. Majority of Mesmer wells power based. Majority of Ele AOE skills, power based.

I really do not see evidence that the AOE type atacks favor conditions.

Condition Damage is a problem in this game. It’s a never ending discussion between people that defend it (to not be nerfed) and those that complain about it (want it nerfed). One thing is for sure: I will continue play condition damage during PoF. It’s overpowered, it’s lazy, it’s easy, and it is rewarding.

For those worried that it will be nerfed because of complaints… stop worrying. It is too late to balance things now (2 weeks till release), and PoF needs to sell to all players, especially the many ones who love conditions and keep raiding while doing hard PvE content.

My advice to all (not that it matters anyway) is to play Condition Damage build. This is the direction of the game throughout PoF. As a side note: Path of Fire implies fire = burning, doh!

Alin.2468:

One thing is for sure: I will continue play condition damage during PoF. It’s overpowered, it’s lazy, it’s easy, and it is rewarding.

Just going to point out that for about 4 years that was the exact situation with power damage, and nobody at that time suggested that power should be nerfed below condition level.

It’s not that condi is OP, lazy, easy and rewarding, It’s that the whole gameplay is that way, and always has been.

Sigmoid.7082:

Conditions shouldn´t BURST, DoT instead.

Why? And they still are doing their damage over time.

If someone lands 3-4 strong abilities on your be it power or condi you should take significant damage in a timely manner. i.e eating a 10~15K spike from power or eating a spike from condi and ticking down 2~3k for the next 6 seconds.

There has to be a universal armor against condition damage. One type of damage shouldn’t have a means of mitigation while another doesn’t. Imagine if the armor stat didn’t exist and all direct damage inflicted their full amounts. That’s what conditions do unless you’re on of the few classes who have traits that reduce condi damage.

You mitigate power damage and their are a few sources of negation. You negate condi damage and there are a few sources of mitigation. The last 2 sentences are an awful analogy that completely disregards duration and cleanses.

Power-damage

1s: 3000
1s: 3000
1s: 5000
1s: 7000
1s: 5000
1s: 3000
1s: 10000
1s: 2000
1s: 2000
1s: 4000

Condition-damage now

1s: 2000+1000+500
1s: 5000+2000+1000
1s: 8000+4000+2000
1s: 10000+6000+3000
1s: 6000+3000+500
1s: 7000+4000+500
1s: 10000+6000+700
1s: 6000+4000+500
1s: 7000+4000+800
1s: 8000+5000+500

Condition-damage how it should be:

1s: 1000+100
1s: 2000+200
1s: 3000+300
1s: 4000+400
1s: 5000+500
1s: 6000+600
1s: 7000+700
1s: 8000+800
1s: 8000+800
1s: 8000+800

these numbers work just as example
Condition-damage should reward you with decent and consistent damage not high damage, consistency is the keyword here.

Andaras.9317:

I sincerely don’t know why people always think that condi builds absolutely need expertise in order to be a condi build. Yes for a maximizing damage standpoint yes but under normal circumstances a reduced crit rate won’t hurt your DPS enough.

A simple example would be a ranger shortbow or condi mesmer. Give either of them condi damage/toughness/vitality and spec for defensive utility and they’ll outlast any power build, even against a full bunker anything.

And as many people have mentioned, many attacks with condi builds can inflict 3-5 conditions on a single attack and the damaging conditions are usually covered by a single stack of vulnerability or cripple.

There has to be a universal armor against condition damage. One type of damage shouldn’t have a means of mitigation while another doesn’t. Imagine if the armor stat didn’t exist and all direct damage inflicted their full amounts. That’s what conditions do unless you’re on of the few classes who have traits that reduce condi damage.

You do not absolutely need precision or ferocity to do a damage, and lots of it , in a power build either.

My warrior can get the equivalent of 500 precision ou of a trait. Runes and traits can guarantee the equivalent of 2100 precision. Fury adds the equivalent of 400+ precision.

To your point on a person using power, toughness or vitality in a build and outlasting any they face. Not true. Otherwise power builds would all be in soldiers. A power build optimized for damage can take these guys out as readily as he can take out a guy in soldiers. It might take a few more bursts. All you need to to get those extra burts is to use cleanses properly and use avoidance techniques as you would against any power build.

I am sorry but when I see someone standing under a thief doing his deathblossoms swinging away at said thief, that person is NOT using damage avoidance techniques and has no cause to complain if he suddenly finds himself overloaded with conditions, just as a person who does nothing to ward off a p/p unload has cause to complain about the 10+K damage a single unload can lead to. (Yes I do see people doing this with regularity.)

Now here the big difference.

Once that 10k unload lands, the damage done . Once three or 4 of those Dblossoms land, you still have many seconds of ticks before 10k damage done and you can still prevent all the remainder damage they will do via a cleanse.

A cleanse mitigates condition damage to a greater degree then armor and toughness mitigates power damage. Obviously there a tradeoff in that cleanses have to worry about cover conditions.

Finally I am not sure why you conflate expertise with crit rates. Expertise adds to condition durations and ABSOLUTELY increases overall damage. Others have suggested this can all be done via gear and sigils wherein a single condition focused on. This will lead to less overall condition damage then those builds that have access to multiple conditions and choose to focus on increasing durations across all of those conditions.

In the traits of any given class , there multiple sources of precisions, ferocity and power available. Outside one trait I know of the ONLY way to add expertise is via gear.

Arzurag.7506:

Sigmoid.7082:

Conditions shouldn´t BURST, DoT instead.

Why? And they still are doing their damage over time.

If someone lands 3-4 strong abilities on your be it power or condi you should take significant damage in a timely manner. i.e eating a 10~15K spike from power or eating a spike from condi and ticking down 2~3k for the next 6 seconds.

There has to be a universal armor against condition damage. One type of damage shouldn’t have a means of mitigation while another doesn’t. Imagine if the armor stat didn’t exist and all direct damage inflicted their full amounts. That’s what conditions do unless you’re on of the few classes who have traits that reduce condi damage.

You mitigate power damage and their are a few sources of negation. You negate condi damage and there are a few sources of mitigation. The last 2 sentences are an awful analogy that completely disregards duration and cleanses.

numbers cut due to character limit

these numbers work just as example
Condition-damage should reward you with decent and consistent damage not high damage, consistency is the keyword here.

Your example of how condi damage should be IS how it actually is. The only difference is that a well built condi build with condis on crit would gain an extra stack every now and then giving them a small burst in damage, similar to a Power build.

If a power build did consistantly 3k damage then they would likely see some 5-10k bursts depending on their active bonuses. Fairly consistent with some serious bursts. This is how power has always been and always will be. Plain and simple.

For a condi build to do consistently that much damage they generally have to have 5-10 stacks of any given condition or more depending on their Condi Damage. Most abilities that apply conditions apply less than 5 at a time and have durations shorter than their cooldowns. This results in quite a bit of inconsistency in stack rates on conditions. Burning the strongest Condition in the game requires 5 stacks at over 2k Condition damage in order to deal over 2k DPS, Poison, the second strongest requires 14 stacks at the same value. Burning condition rarely lasts more than 3 seconds without expertise, so getting consistently over 2k DPS with burning is unlikely (not impossible, just unlikely) from a single player. Getting other conditions up over 14 stacks is a challenge as well. Typically a single condi build will reach 1.5k DPS with high Condi damage before their stacks start falling off.

So a strong condi build does about half of the sustained DPS as a strong power build… looking at those values you’d think Power would still be meta… the only reason this isn’t true is because power has to deal with damage mitigation. Of course, the game actually does a lot of the calculation work for us on this given that a level based armor value is already accounted for in the tool-tip damage on abilities. The only things you have to worry too much about are extra sources of mitigation and players with high Toughness pushing their armor value far beyond the level based value. If your tool-tips say your dealing 3k per hit, you’re going to deal 3k per hit to most targets.

The other reason why Condi is meta instead of Power is due to stacking efficiency and of course the inefficiency of Condi Cleanses… multiple Condi builds together quickly out damage the same number of Power builds together due to conditions being unmitigated damage. And burning a condi cleanse only gives a moments reprieve, unlike any number of options against power.

If condi damage were to be affected by armor, then condi damage would have to be buffed as well, which would undoubtedly result in a massive kitten storm on the forums. However, the various counters to direct damage should affect condi damage as well. For example, retaliation should proc from condition damage, Invulnerability should pause existing condition damage, Protection should reduce incoming condition damage. Regeneration should stack in intensity… and condition cleanses should be more easily accessed… (Arena Net, that means reversing the nerfs you applied to many trait based condi cleanses recently)

Panda.1967:

Arzurag.7506:

Sigmoid.7082:

Conditions shouldn´t BURST, DoT instead.

Why? And they still are doing their damage over time.

If someone lands 3-4 strong abilities on your be it power or condi you should take significant damage in a timely manner. i.e eating a 10~15K spike from power or eating a spike from condi and ticking down 2~3k for the next 6 seconds.

There has to be a universal armor against condition damage. One type of damage shouldn’t have a means of mitigation while another doesn’t. Imagine if the armor stat didn’t exist and all direct damage inflicted their full amounts. That’s what conditions do unless you’re on of the few classes who have traits that reduce condi damage.

You mitigate power damage and their are a few sources of negation. You negate condi damage and there are a few sources of mitigation. The last 2 sentences are an awful analogy that completely disregards duration and cleanses.

numbers cut due to character limit

these numbers work just as example
Condition-damage should reward you with decent and consistent damage not high damage, consistency is the keyword here.

Your example of how condi damage should be IS how it actually is. The only difference is that a well built condi build with condis on crit would gain an extra stack every now and then giving them a small burst in damage, similar to a Power build.

If a power build did consistantly 3k damage then they would likely see some 5-10k bursts depending on their active bonuses. Fairly consistent with some serious bursts. This is how power has always been and always will be. Plain and simple.

For a condi build to do consistently that much damage they generally have to have 5-10 stacks of any given condition or more depending on their Condi Damage. Most abilities that apply conditions apply less than 5 at a time and have durations shorter than their cooldowns. This results in quite a bit of inconsistency in stack rates on conditions. Burning the strongest Condition in the game requires 5 stacks at over 2k Condition damage in order to deal over 2k DPS, Poison, the second strongest requires 14 stacks at the same value. Burning condition rarely lasts more than 3 seconds without expertise, so getting consistently over 2k DPS with burning is unlikely (not impossible, just unlikely) from a single player. Getting other conditions up over 14 stacks is a challenge as well. Typically a single condi build will reach 1.5k DPS with high Condi damage before their stacks start falling off.

So a strong condi build does about half of the sustained DPS as a strong power build… looking at those values you’d think Power would still be meta… the only reason this isn’t true is because power has to deal with damage mitigation. Of course, the game actually does a lot of the calculation work for us on this given that a level based armor value is already accounted for in the tool-tip damage on abilities. The only things you have to worry too much about are extra sources of mitigation and players with high Toughness pushing their armor value far beyond the level based value. If your tool-tips say your dealing 3k per hit, you’re going to deal 3k per hit to most targets.

The other reason why Condi is meta instead of Power is due to stacking efficiency and of course the inefficiency of Condi Cleanses… multiple Condi builds together quickly out damage the same number of Power builds together due to conditions being unmitigated damage. And burning a condi cleanse only gives a moments reprieve, unlike any number of options against power.

If condi damage were to be affected by armor, then condi damage would have to be buffed as well, which would undoubtedly result in a massive kitten storm on the forums. However, the various counters to direct damage should affect condi damage as well. For example, retaliation should proc from condition damage, Invulnerability should pause existing condition damage, Protection should reduce incoming condition damage. Regeneration should stack in intensity… and condition cleanses should be more easily accessed… (Arena Net, that means reversing the nerfs you applied to many trait based condi cleanses recently)

Well just merge resistance and invulnarbility and you got eactly what you ask for and then condi cleanses have to work against power damage aswell right? ( 100 blade well I just condi clense and give me back my health please.)

Linken.6345:

Well just merge resistance and invulnarbility and you got eactly what you ask for and then condi cleanses have to work against power damage aswell right? ( 100 blade well I just condi clense and give me back my health please.)

I’m actually glad you pointed this out. This is something that a lot of people who try to “fix condition damage” fail to take into account. There’s a fine line between balance and absurdity, and quite honestly, any change to conditions and damage mitigation teeters dangerously over the edge on that line. While merging Invuln and Resistance would bring balance and remain firmly on the line, a change such as condi cleanses working against power damage would fall right off the line.

When I suggest making condi cleanses more easily accessed I mean just that. Look at how accessable healing is. Condi cleanses should be equally accessable. If you’re fighting against a power build, you would find yourself using various hard damage reductions and healing to counter their damage, correct? Likewise when you fight against a condi build you rely more on condi cleanse and healing. The problem is that when fighting power you can reduce all the damage down to a manageable value and actually our heal it. However, against a Condi build the only way you can reduce the damage is to cleanse it away, only to find yourself suffering from all the same conditions again a moment later. Healing is ineffective at countering conditions due to Poison reducing it’s effectiveness and the fact that you would be hard pressed to reduce condition damage down to a manageable value like you can with power.

This is why I suggest making conditions mitigated by normal sources of damage mitigation (not necessarily armor, as that would require buffing condition damage as a whole), and increasing access to condition cleanse. I’m not saying to make condition cleanse so abundant that you can literally drop every condition off of you every second, just enough to be utilized efficiently. If every healing skill cleansed 1 condition upon use, that would actually take enough pressure off conditions to allow for healing to be effective vs conditions in most cases. I say this from experience, not from guess work, all of my builds utilize heals with condition cleanse components or a passive form of condition removal, and while those abilities may not dump a lot of conditions off of me, they do clear enough to make healing effective.

The other “problem” with condition damage is actually not a problem with condition damage, but rather a problem with individual players… a LOT of players are unwilling to sacrifice even the tiniest amount of DPS to increase their survivability. Given the choice between a trait that grants condi cleanse or a 1% damage trait, they will always go for the damage trait, and then proceed to complain that they are getting wrecked by conditions because they “don’t have access to condi cleanses.” That’s not a fault in the game’s design, but rather a fault in those players mentality.

Panda.1967:

Arzurag.7506:

Sigmoid.7082:

Conditions shouldn´t BURST, DoT instead.

Why? And they still are doing their damage over time.

If someone lands 3-4 strong abilities on your be it power or condi you should take significant damage in a timely manner. i.e eating a 10~15K spike from power or eating a spike from condi and ticking down 2~3k for the next 6 seconds.

There has to be a universal armor against condition damage. One type of damage shouldn’t have a means of mitigation while another doesn’t. Imagine if the armor stat didn’t exist and all direct damage inflicted their full amounts. That’s what conditions do unless you’re on of the few classes who have traits that reduce condi damage.

You mitigate power damage and their are a few sources of negation. You negate condi damage and there are a few sources of mitigation. The last 2 sentences are an awful analogy that completely disregards duration and cleanses.

numbers cut due to character limit

these numbers work just as example
Condition-damage should reward you with decent and consistent damage not high damage, consistency is the keyword here.

Your example of how condi damage should be IS how it actually is. The only difference is that a well built condi build with condis on crit would gain an extra stack every now and then giving them a small burst in damage, similar to a Power build.

If a power build did consistantly 3k damage then they would likely see some 5-10k bursts depending on their active bonuses. Fairly consistent with some serious bursts. This is how power has always been and always will be. Plain and simple.

For a condi build to do consistently that much damage they generally have to have 5-10 stacks of any given condition or more depending on their Condi Damage. Most abilities that apply conditions apply less than 5 at a time and have durations shorter than their cooldowns. This results in quite a bit of inconsistency in stack rates on conditions. Burning the strongest Condition in the game requires 5 stacks at over 2k Condition damage in order to deal over 2k DPS, Poison, the second strongest requires 14 stacks at the same value. Burning condition rarely lasts more than 3 seconds without expertise, so getting consistently over 2k DPS with burning is unlikely (not impossible, just unlikely) from a single player. Getting other conditions up over 14 stacks is a challenge as well. Typically a single condi build will reach 1.5k DPS with high Condi damage before their stacks start falling off.

So a strong condi build does about half of the sustained DPS as a strong power build… looking at those values you’d think Power would still be meta… the only reason this isn’t true is because power has to deal with damage mitigation. Of course, the game actually does a lot of the calculation work for us on this given that a level based armor value is already accounted for in the tool-tip damage on abilities. The only things you have to worry too much about are extra sources of mitigation and players with high Toughness pushing their armor value far beyond the level based value. If your tool-tips say your dealing 3k per hit, you’re going to deal 3k per hit to most targets.

The other reason why Condi is meta instead of Power is due to stacking efficiency and of course the inefficiency of Condi Cleanses… multiple Condi builds together quickly out damage the same number of Power builds together due to conditions being unmitigated damage. And burning a condi cleanse only gives a moments reprieve, unlike any number of options against power.

If condi damage were to be affected by armor, then condi damage would have to be buffed as well, which would undoubtedly result in a massive kitten storm on the forums. However, the various counters to direct damage should affect condi damage as well. For example, retaliation should proc from condition damage, Invulnerability should pause existing condition damage, Protection should reduce incoming condition damage. Regeneration should stack in intensity… and condition cleanses should be more easily accessed… (Arena Net, that means reversing the nerfs you applied to many trait based condi cleanses recently)

I´m astonished and have to thank you further.
I never had a reasonable explanation for condi being stronger than power, now it´s clear and I´m glad that you replied to my post with that.