Guild Wars 2

So, is this thread asking for the holy trinity or something? Please no.

No. It’s about how DPS traits are now broken after the latest patch, the OP specified it in his second post on this thread:

It just seems like the DPS bugs are across the board. From PVP to PVE and including PVE mobs.

but some other posters understood it incorrectly and started the typical “Zerker meta is bad” debate all over again as if we don’t have enough threads about that already.

guildwarstwentytwelve.5693:

Just want to say I am on the verge of quitting the game, because it is so broken with dps and bugs. I understand that you want to get HoT out, but you should have made these changes a year ago. Its naive to think you can make so many large changes this close to an xpack release and it go smooth.

Right now dps is sky high, even with a full healing build trying to keep team mates up, its useless. Engi shares 1k to group big deal the entire group is getting hit for 4k per tick burning and thats just one condi.

Its time to fix things, or start losing customers, just letting you know how I feel about the game. I’m not freaking out because the game is not my life, but I would think you would want to hear from customers, so here it is.

This game is supported by casuals imo and when you break it this bad you only have a short time before people walk. Casuals dont hang around forever like hard cores, thats why they are called casuals.

Good luck I hate to see this game die off, but right now, its just not fun.

The title of your thread is not accurate. “DPS is broken and WE are tired of it” should be rephrased to “I think DPS is broken and I AM tired of it”.

You don’t speak for everyone and you certainly don’t speak for me given what you’ve said.

Mourningcry.9428:

Well, maybe I’m just dense… if this whole thread is about how DPS, coupled with horrid AI resulting in brainless, harmless mobs has trivialized the game, well, how can things still be hard?

Like I said, if you don’t read the actual discussion in which I made those comments, you won’t understand. That is because you take things out of context. I just gave a basic recap of what my point in that discussion was, and I think it was a pretty clear explanation.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I never played DDO, but in GW2 the simple counter to the archer AI would be a stun, or an imbolize, or a blind, or a knockdown, or even a daze which would prevent the archer from running. Likewise for the mage – interrupt him before, or while, he’s casting the barrier.

Yes. Which would be nice, if the ai did SOMETHING so we could respond to it. IT doesn’t have to be complicated behavior, but it should at least do something.

Mourningcry.9428:

This is just a simple example of how a player would respond to that AI. Again, the first time you see it, wow, unbeatable. The next time, it’s trivial because you know what’s going to happen and are prepared to prevent it.

This is not about complexity. This is about action and reaction, which the current ai hardly does.

Mourningcry.9428:

Move, counter-move between player and AI won’t change, it’s just the depth of how far the programming can take it.

Why not?

Mourningcry.9428:

To expect a game AI to evolve along with the playerbase is a sci-fi fantasy at this stage, at least in regards to commercial gaming like GW2.

It doesn’t have to evolve. It just needs to have the bare minimum of interaction with the players. It needs to respond to what players are doing, to create an interesting fight.

maddoctor.2738:

You mean aggro management in this game is one of the best out there. No aggro management = best experience. There is nothing more idiotic than mobs preferring people with ultra heavy armor over the healer with cloth behind them,

That is what the mobs in GW2 do right now. Aggro worked much better in GW1. At least you’d see mobs try and attack the backline, and focus on squishy healer types in GW1.

In GW2 I’ve seen huge mobs chase me around in a circle because I had the highest toughness, while the rest of the party was standing in the middle, shooting at them.

maddoctor.2738:

It’s not the same, because those using just one skill in GW2 don’t just use 1 skill. They DODGE (you can’t dodge in GW1), they use TRAITS (there are no traits in GW1) and of course they rez.

Ressing in GW2 actually kind of dumbs the game down further. Anyone that falls down, can instantly be revived if the whole party just stacks on top of the victim. That is why we see so many players just stack on top of each other, spam their attacks and healing at random, and then everything is dead. You don’t really have to pay a lot of attention to what the enemies are doing (if you can see it at all with all the visual effects obscuring the action).

maddoctor.2738:

UW isn’t by any means challenging, aside from 2 quests (That involve protecting npcs) everything else isn’t hard at all.

-Says someone that has probably done UW several times, and knows the place by heart. That is not a good unbiased evaluation of the difficulty of the Underworld. UW is pretty tough, especially Four Horsemen, Ice King and the final battle. But the enemies as well, are far more punishing than anywhere else in Prophecies.

Unlike UW, DoA is actually hard

Yeah, you’re wrong. DoA is hard for top tier players, for whom Underworld is now a piece of cake. It was meant for the best of the best. It was meant to be harder than anything in the game. That doesn’t mean UW isn’t also challenging.

maddoctor.2738:

UW and FoW are both easy modes, I’d wish people would stop calling those two “hard” or “challenging”, they are CoF difficulty if not less.

If you are very familiar with them, they can be easy. But that is not a fair estimate of their actual difficulty. Unless you are a veteran, both areas can be quite a challenge.

maddoctor.2738:

No. It’s about how DPS traits are now broken after the latest patch, the OP specified it in his second post on this thread:

It just seems like the DPS bugs are across the board. From PVP to PVE and including PVE mobs.

but some other posters understood it incorrectly and started the typical “Zerker meta is bad” debate all over again as if we don’t have enough threads about that already.

If that’s the case, then I would argue the OP is nitpicking. Find another game that doesn’t have bugs. I wish him luck. If they do exist, the don’t make the game unplayable or unpleasant.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Like I said, if you don’t read the actual discussion in which I made those comments, you won’t understand. That is because you take things out of context. I just gave a basic recap of what my point in that discussion was, and I think it was a pretty clear explanation.

And if you’re just going to just pick and chose the opening statements I make, and ignore and not refute or address the explanations I provide following them, there isn’t much to discuss.

My initial thought about this update was that power damage was really high and too fast paced.

But after playing this for a week, I’ve realized that this patch has made a lot of classes really balanced.

There are some glaring issues with burning doing too much damage/easily stacked with one class. They are in the process of fixing bugs that made damage high through Grenadier and Symbolic Avenger so it’s a path in the right direction.

Overall, if you want to be a tank, you can now tank. If you want to be berserker, you can do so. If you want to be hybrid, you can. With that said, berserker specs are no longer being tanky high damaging builds.

There’s more of a risk vs reward with how you play your character now which is what this game has lacked for a long time.

If ANet fixes burning, fix bugs, this patch is the best I’ve seen in ages when it comes to balance.

Obtena.7952:

If that’s the case, then I would argue the OP is nitpicking. Find another game that doesn’t have bugs. I wish him luck. If they do exist, the don’t make the game unplayable or unpleasant.

Here’s an idea. Maybe read what the OP actually said, instead of reading someone elses biased recap? Its not like this discussion has reached that many pages yet.

Mourningcry.9428:

And if you’re just going to just pick and chose the opening statements I make, and ignore and not refute or address the explanations I provide following them, there isn’t much to discuss.

No. You are responding to something you quote-mined, without even reading what my initial discussion was about. If you can’t be bothered to actually read that discussion, then don’t quote-mine it, because you don’t know what you are talking about. Quote-mining is bad. You deliberately take things out of context, and then argue that point. It is silly and pointless. Either read the original discussion, or don’t quote-mine.

Now if you actually want to discuss that original topic on the difficulty curve of dungeons , then I suggest you make a seperate thread for it, and then I’ll be happy to discuss it with you. But right now it has nothing to do with the OP’s discussion, nor with my comments in this thread.

Man if you think this is broken wait until the elite specs are out. Its not horizontal progression when its the elite specs that are supposed to have primary access to taunt, slow and resistance. Rip if you don’t own HoT

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No. You are responding to something you quote-mined, without even reading what my initial discussion was about. If you can’t be bothered to actually read that discussion, then don’t quote-mine it, because you don’t know what you are talking about. Quote-mining is bad. You deliberately take things out of context, and then argue that point. It is silly and pointless. Either read the original discussion, or don’t quote-mine.

Now if you actually want to discuss that original topic on the difficulty curve of dungeons , then I suggest you make a seperate thread for it, and then I’ll be happy to discuss it with you. But right now it has nothing to do with the OP’s discussion, nor with my comments in this thread.

Perhaps the reason I “quote-mined” (which I actually didn’t, the quote I used was written by you earlier in this thread), or more accurately referenced, is because not only did I read that referenced discussion, but WE actually had that discussion? And since I was part of that discussion, I would say it’s fair that I know what I’m talking about…. And I don’t need to open a new topic, because we already had that discussion. Just a snippet from that conversation -

Mourningcry.9428:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Personally I’d rather see a steady difficulty progression. Lots of players have to do AC in story mode, and get literally kicked in the teeth by its difficulty. A difficulty closer to HotW or CoF would be much more suitable to these beginner zones of the game. You could gradually learn players how to do dungeons, by slowly making dungeons harder and harder.

Right now it is immediately teeth grindingly hard, turning many players away from dungeons entirely because it is so awful. And then dungeons erratically become way easier, and harder and easier. There is no difficulty curve in the progression of dungeons. I wish there was. Start simple and easy, then build up the difficulty levels with each dungeon, with Arah being the final hardest dungeon.

I can understand this thinking, but given the way the game is designed, I don’t think it’s appropriate at all.

The simplest reason is due to the acquisition of Tokens. Tokens are used for both Gifts as well as Exotic gear. Further, given that different dungeons provide different stats, this would favoracquisition of some stats over others. Not optimal. Further it would inherently trivialize some acquisitions.

The dungeons are designed to provide a challenge to both a player who has reached 80, is fully geared, and is working towards a Legenday, as well as to a player who barely meets the base requirements for that instance – hence scaling. The mechanics of the dungeon don’t rely upon gear, rather, they are dependent upon knowledge and skill – level independent.

Implementing a progressive scale catering to gear, level, knowledge and skill doesn’t easily fit into the current structure.

Trying to revamp the system to accomodate the kind of progression would require resources that could better be spent developing new content rather then trying to restructure content that meets the current paradigm.

And further, the only times I’ve quoted you up until this point, have been from comments you made in this specific thread.

That aside, my point specific to this discussion, and which you haven’t addressed, is the fact that familiarity, not DPS or lack of AI, has made the content trivial.

The reason AC was so hard then, or was perceived to be, and is trivial now, is, as I said, the mechanics are known. The only difficulty is in the execution.

One does not simply walk up to Mai Trin the first time and autoattack to win, nor likely even win at all. After a couple hundred times? Well, my money’s not on Mai any more. Same Mai, same player – only now she’s not a mystery, she’s known.

The same logic applies to any non-evolving AI you want to implement. Once all the possible actions/reactions are know, it’s just a matter of execution, nothing more. Doesn’t matter if it’s one step, or five steps, or ten steps, once it’s figured out, it’s trivial.

Mourningcry.9428:

The reason AC was so hard then, or was perceived to be, and is trivial now, is, as I said, the mechanics are known. The only difficulty is in the execution.

I don’t think this is correct at all. To new players, the dungeon is still a huge leap in difficulty from normal PVE.

Mourningcry.9428:

One does not simply walk up to Mai Trin the first time and autoattack to win, nor likely even win at all. After a couple hundred times? Well, my money’s not on Mai any more. Same Mai, same player – only now she’s not a mystery, she’s known.

The difference here is that Mai originally was part of a Living Story and meant to be a bit harder than the usual dungeon bosses. She was never the first dungeon boss that players encounter in the game.

Mourningcry.9428:

The same logic applies to any non-evolving AI you want to implement. Once all the possible actions/reactions are know, it’s just a matter of execution, nothing more. Doesn’t matter if it’s one step, or five steps, or ten steps, once it’s figured out, it’s trivial.

People will always find solutions for any enemy behavior. That doesn’t mean that they should have no behavior at all.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Obtena.7952:

If that’s the case, then I would argue the OP is nitpicking. Find another game that doesn’t have bugs. I wish him luck. If they do exist, the don’t make the game unplayable or unpleasant.

Here’s an idea. Maybe read what the OP actually said, instead of reading someone elses biased recap? Its not like this discussion has reached that many pages yet.

I did read it. Essentially the OP is complaining that Anet’s recent balance gave too much DPS to people. That’s not a bug and it doesn’t make DPS broken. That’s a NORMAL effect of changing something; sometimes it’s over, sometimes it’s under. Furthermore, Anet has ACKNOWLEGDED the most serious offending traits and is dealing with them.

So basically, the OP isn’t aware or is aware and is impatient. Either way, he’s complaining about something Anet is always constantly working on anyways so it’s not very valid.

Heh, you aren’t supposed to outheal conditions, you are supposed to get rid of them (ie. cleanse or distribute) or mitigate them with boons such as Resistance.

These types of threads are a common thing in MMOs and essentially amount to nothing. In GW2, we do not have actual Tanks or Healers but instead we have skills and the ability to avoid damage, cleanse conditions etc. If someone is taking burning damage then they need to cleanse it or someone else in the group should cleanse it. It really is simple and in no way complex.

These types of threads talk about gloom and doom, the end of a MMO, the game is dying, people are going to quit yet it never happens. If a few people quits, Anet could care less because there’s always new players replacing those that quit and each new player has to buy the game so that’s money Anet makes.

I’m all for helping people in game with anything they need help with, including learning certain mechanics but if anyone wants to quit because they failed to properly learn how to play the game then so be it. Anet put a lot of work into the combat in this game and it is quite good. The combat in this game is not basic like most MMOs where you have your Tank keeping damage from coming your way and your Healer holding your hand keeping you from dying when you mess up.

southbeatz.2780:

(…)The combat in this game is not basic like most MMOs where you have your Tank keeping damage from coming your way and your Healer holding your hand keeping you from dying when you mess up.

correction… gw2 combat it is the most basic combat system.

the acual gw is..

Wins who spams harder n’s faster, there isnt much to learn in gw2, the dodges will be used to avoid big hits, get out of aoe area mostly it will ome in natural way, problem is the actual boost in raw damage, that shortens the combat durations, some classes are being exploited due optimal damage output, bursts bigger than most class health has, and when this reaches to wvw….

Players aren’t complaining about trinity system , besides this update made toughness even more weaker but at the moment there’s barely no gear tactics in group, only matter play class that hits harder and faster, no roles besides MINDLESS damage to kill faster before it retaliates or notices…
I can also play actual builds that burst playing down in 3-4 seconds if not in lesser time, but also being forced to play a class in one way i don’t like because other weapon set is not viable in the game mode i play… it is not good for a mmo, all classes should be viable in all game modes independent each weapon they are using.

This patch comes with very bad changes overall imo, but it is ok for players that play anything that has big numbers…

It’s not fair to say that the system is about Mindless damage to kill faster. It’s not like you can macro your rotation, walk up to a boss and AFK while it works. Mindless is not an accurate description of what kind of player you need to be to make that ‘damage to kill faster’ strategy to actually work and excel at PVE in this game.

Whether we like the system or not, you still need a level of skill to do this mindless DPS and survive the challenging encounters.

Obtena.7952:

It’s not fair to say that the system is about Mindless damage to kill faster. It’s not like you can macro your rotation, walk up to a boss and AFK while it works. Mindless is not an accurate description of what kind of player you need to be to make that ‘damage to kill faster’ strategy to actually work and excel at PVE in this game.

Whether we like the system or not, you still need a level of skill to do this mindless DPS and survive the challenging encounters.

Yeah might be a bit harsh(blunt) to talk like that and gives the wrongly impression but, this update diminish the importance of non high damage builds, well… outside pve of course, i know there is some fixes going on from anet, but i only play WvW and very little if none spvp, the class i main anything biased outside GS/hammer based builds rotations is impossible to play… thus the reason i use the “mindless dps game” term because it feels Anet only wants players to think has damage as only viable stat and dodge while u can then u die and repeat.
And trust me its not a l2p issue, i also know the builds i used to play have become useless and unplayable in WVW…. big TANK to Anet.

Btw macros cant be used to pve but works against players and make wonders in some classes. :P

I think that’s a little narrow minded. I believe that up to now, many people doing WvW successfully incorporated non-offensive stats into their gear. It’s also worth noting that if Anet is allowing people more damage in WvW, it may be their way of pushing WvW in a different direction and make people think new strategies; less zerging perhaps. We don’t know their intentions, but I don’t think they just stupidly make changes without having some idea of what the impact will be. They even told us up front … new trait system will give more power. That’s more than evident.

Granted, a little slack is deserved here … they DID just overhaul almost all the traits … you can expect some unknowns and bugs … and if they do make a mistake, they own up to it and fix it, like Grenadier or Symbolic Avenger traits.

well since its easier to make damage, playes will blob more since will kill targets faster.
This is a hidden nerf for blobs that will backfire, they are ok with players playing that way but winner will besed in who dishes more damage mostly and numbers here coverage wars and stack in one server will be more important than ever, and by the time a player does more damage in a guard full knigh(my case being hit by close 4k auto attacks with very low stacks of vulnerability like max 3-4, had to change to fully offensive build) and a superior ac hits like 2k, anet want to change wvw but will be worse.
It will be pure pirate ship or groups will try to avoid each other. if the high damages mantain.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I don’t think this is correct at all. To new players, the dungeon is still a huge leap in difficulty from normal PVE.

And that’s where we differ. It is a leap in difficulty, but with experience and knowledge, it’s quickly overcome. And where you feel it’s an unwelcome leap, some others of us think it’s a welcome change from open world.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The difference here is that Mai originally was part of a Living Story and meant to be a bit harder than the usual dungeon bosses. She was never the first dungeon boss that players encounter in the game.

Because it was part of LS, it’s entirely possible, and even likely, that a player encountered Mai before any other dungeon boss (especially players who never wanted to do dungeons).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

People will always find solutions for any enemy behavior. That doesn’t mean that they should have no behavior at all.

And as I, and others have pointed out in this thread, there are numerous examples of NPC AI that exhibit distinct, responsive behavior. Claiming there is no AI is untrue. Just because you feel you can discount it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, or, more importantly, is challenging to numerous players.

Further, and you still won’t address is the notion that familiarity and knowledge are the factors that make content trivial. Regardless of depth of mechanics, regardless of DPS, gear or levels – knowing the content results in it becoming trivial – which, even in your GW1 exmples as demonstrated by other posters, is inevitable.