Guild Wars 2

rjnemer.7816:

First, if you think ascended gear is a treadmill you have no idea what you are talking about.

Second, It will only matters in WvW. All the pve content in this game is so easy (except for high level fractals where AR is required) you can easily complete it with masterwork gear.

Third, its a business, of course they are greedy.

Fourth, since when have mmo’s kept their word on everything

The problem is not ascended gear—at all. The problem is vertical progression and it matters across the PvE and WvW. Let me break it down for you.

VP can be described as an integer series 1,2,3,4,…n where each number represents an increase in the power level of the game, usually through stat inflation on gear, but it could be through infusions, potions, anything really that raises the power level of the game. VP can be understood from the words that make it up: Vertical, the power level increases, Progression, it continually increases over time. VP doesn’t progress by stopping. It’s purpose is to provide a sense of progression and motivate play, but it brings a lot of extra baggage and that’s why you see all these threads. Perhaps the heaviest piece of extra baggage is that, since we are talking about the power level of the game, the gear treadmill is not optional. This is obvious once you have the definition of VP understood. It should be self-evident upon reading this paragraph.

But, yeah, you are right. Ascended gear is not a treadmill, it’s simply a point on the ever ascending power curve. VP is what has created the treadmill. In fact, the major reward systems in the game are currently driven by VP. If you have any doubt visit your friendly local Laurel vendor and see what they have for sale. Laurels are the treadmill that they placed outside FotM.

You guys cry too much

Vayne.8563:

Anet stated (I hate the word promise in this context) that if you grind for something in Guild Wars 2 it will be only cosmetic.

I don’t know at what point in time statements in interviews became promises. I see quite a large difference personally between a statement and a comment. After all, many statements are quite casual, where a promise implies something core.

I think I saw 3 mentions of the vertical progression thing during the years preceding the game, but it was definitely said and I’d have been happier with the game if Anet had stuck to their guns.

But I can also understand why they didn’t.

Edit: Here’s why I say it’s not a promise.

Father: Okay everyone we’re going to the zoo tomorrow.

Tomorrow arrives, it’s raining. Most of the kids don’t want to go to the zoo in the rain. The situation has changed.

Father: Let’s go to the arcade instead. That’s still fun.

Those who had their hearts set on going to the zoo naturally are angry, but I’m not so sure dad promised to go to the zoo. It was his intention to go to the zoo however…and circumstances changed.

We’ve already exhausted this in another thread, but I see you took nothing away from it so I’m game.

Promise: 1 : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

The source is http://www.merriam-webster.com. That’s all a promise is. It can be legally bound by a contract (which we are not talking about here), or bound by a vow or oath, but what you are binding is a promise. And, a promise is “a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified”.

One freedom I will not allow you is the freedom to give words meanings other than their plain dictionary definition. And, please don’t go to nuance again here as it’s not needed. Nuance greatly enriches language and it’s often necessary when dealing with complex issues for which the language finds itself poor. The promise is not in need of nuance. It is simple and provides the basis for many significant business, personal, and legal concepts. And, that is why everyone is upset around Anet’s reversal on vertical progression. They broke a promise. Not a legally binding one, but a promise.

game developers are neither psychic nor omniscient. The manifesto is originally quite a few years old I guess. Ideas change and adapt when you implement them. Apparently the horizontal progression approach did not work very well, so here we are.

Doomdesire.9365:

Ascended isn’t a grind…lol.

40g worth of metals, woods, ectos and powder says otherwise.

MikaHR.1978:

Harper.4173:

No matter how we look at it it’s very clear that the original design philosophy and what we have now are different things.
Gear progression that transfers in a small amount of grind with each new “gear grab” update.
Time gated content that makes you coming back because you have to.
Living story that you can’t redo so if you want to experience the game you’ve got to be there THEN otherwise you’re never going to get to play it.

This philosophy is designed to keep players playing, IN the game and spending on the gem store. And you know what? It WORKS.

Sadly enough – even though I hate this new approach which makes me feel like i HAVE to play the game in order to not fall behind ( dailies, guild missions, living story) this approach made me score in over 1.100 hours in ONE year after release as opposed to GW1 where I made around 1500 hours over 3 years or so.
It’s a BIG difference. And when I played GW1 I was in a less busy period of my life.

So – their approach works – people are playing and spending and the train of profit keeps rolling but sadly enough the experience is not the same.
I will never again experience the fun, exciting and enjoyable experience that GW1 was.
The best thing about that game is that you didn’t feel pressured – no need to grind, make cash, farm up or be there at a certain time unless you WANTED to.
I loved that game for that approach – it is exactly why I stayed away from WOW.

GW2 is exactly the opposite – making us feel the need to be in the game or " miss out " . It’s an odd feeling – feeling you’re going to get left behind.
Even if Ascended isn’t hard to get the fact that they haven’t released any official information on weather they will add new gear makes you always have that thought in the back of your head : " I better save up and farm up, who knows what they’ll add in next and I’ll need it ".

I hope they turn around on these decisions and make GW2 a rightful successor to GW1 but honestly I don’t think it will happen.
As proven by myself – this approach works. Even if I were to quit I’ve already spent enough on the TP to have made them earn the cash they wanted from me.

It works short term.

Ask all facebook games (Zynga in particualr) how it turns out long term.

It doesn’t matter – that’s what I’m saying.
In 1 year of GW2 they’ve gotten more money from me than they did in 3+ years of GW1. Even though your players burn out on the game faster you get more from them in that amount of time.
Plus – GW2 being the way it is is more accessible to new players than GW1 ever was. Fresh influx of players will always supplement the losses of old players that have given up.

The horizontal progression worked very well in GW1 – this is to answer to those who said it didn’t. The point is that they no longer need or want that sort of approach.
It’s not that it doesn’t work, they just wanted something else. Something OTHER than what they promised when we bought the game.

The bottom line is this:
As a player, personally – the reason i chose GW1 over the much more popular WoW was the fact that with each new release and expansion everything you had achieved previously became null and void and you were forced all over again to redo all your work. And for what?
So I went with GW1 – I loved that system – it’s hard to see that it’s going to be gone forever, and furthermore it’s hard to see that we fell for a bait and switch that the developers threw at us.
In the end we couldn’t have known.

OP to the topic.. Last thing I heard about this was that Ascended gear was going to be the last tier.

I don’t think you can count on ascended gear being the last tier, or if it is that gear progression in going to end. They talked about more powerful infusions. Who cares is your grinding for a more powerful sword or a more powerful thing to put in the sword, it’s really the same.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

OP to the topic.. Last thing I heard about this was that Ascended gear was going to be the last tier.

It doesn’t matter whether it’s the last named tier as it’s not the problem in the first place. The problem is vertical progression and that will continue:

“we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Chris W in the AMA

“That is why there is no plan for new Rarity Tiers of loot but there are plans to enhance or gain items within the existing rarity design whose properties continue on a shallow power curve
However we have no intention of adding a new Rarity of Gear such as Ascended. Instead and as we evolve the game existing Rarity’s will evolve over time
Through infusions and existing Tiers there will be the opportunity to increase stats or abilities on a low power curve through multiple types of gameplay in GW2.
The opportunity to enhance existing tiers of loot will not be through a regular cadence of monthly updates instead it is more likely to come from expansions or very big drops of content.” Chris W in the AMA

It doesn’t matter how they move the power level up vertically; they could do it through potions if they want. The problem is the non-optional grind which VP creates (by definition) in all the games in which you find it. It’s called a treadmill grind because you expend countless hours of time and go nowhere—it’s just bigger numbers on a character sheet that everyone else has as well. My main in WoW was once around 10k HP at max level. In MoP he’s pushing 400k HP and nothing has changed. Mobs and players still take the same amount of time to kill and I die just as easily. Nothing has changed basically except the numbers. A growing number of MMO players realize this and are asking for a new kind of MMO, the kind GW2 was promised to be.

You gotta admit that all the changes that Anet did over the year, indeed brought them lots of potential customers. They are making more money right now, so y should they keep their promises?

I don’t like the changes either , but y not relax and enjoy the best of ur 50$?

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Anet stated (I hate the word promise in this context) that if you grind for something in Guild Wars 2 it will be only cosmetic.

I don’t know at what point in time statements in interviews became promises. I see quite a large difference personally between a statement and a comment. After all, many statements are quite casual, where a promise implies something core.

I think I saw 3 mentions of the vertical progression thing during the years preceding the game, but it was definitely said and I’d have been happier with the game if Anet had stuck to their guns.

But I can also understand why they didn’t.

Edit: Here’s why I say it’s not a promise.

Father: Okay everyone we’re going to the zoo tomorrow.

Tomorrow arrives, it’s raining. Most of the kids don’t want to go to the zoo in the rain. The situation has changed.

Father: Let’s go to the arcade instead. That’s still fun.

Those who had their hearts set on going to the zoo naturally are angry, but I’m not so sure dad promised to go to the zoo. It was his intention to go to the zoo however…and circumstances changed.

We’ve already exhausted this in another thread, but I see you took nothing away from it so I’m game.

Promise: 1 : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

The source is http://www.merriam-webster.com. That’s all a promise is. It can be legally bound by a contract (which we are not talking about here), or bound by a vow or oath, but what you are binding is a promise. And, a promise is “a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified”.

One freedom I will not allow you is the freedom to give words meanings other than their plain dictionary definition. And, please don’t go to nuance again here as it’s not needed. Nuance greatly enriches language and it’s often necessary when dealing with complex issues for which the language finds itself poor. The promise is not in need of nuance. It is simple and provides the basis for many significant business, personal, and legal concepts. And, that is why everyone is upset around Anet’s reversal on vertical progression. They broke a promise. Not a legally binding one, but a promise.

Anyone can look stuff up in the dictionary. You claim I learned nothing from the other thread. I could say the same about you.

Promise, to most people (at least in America) has a different definition that statement. Saying something isn’t promising it, which is why when people say something, someone else might ask, “promise?”.

In fact that’s practically a cliche. Because of the connotations of promise, using it with regard to casual statements is at best ambiguous and at worst misleading.

And I don’t really care if you agree or believe it…it happens to be true.

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Anet stated (I hate the word promise in this context) that if you grind for something in Guild Wars 2 it will be only cosmetic.

I don’t know at what point in time statements in interviews became promises. I see quite a large difference personally between a statement and a comment. After all, many statements are quite casual, where a promise implies something core.

I think I saw 3 mentions of the vertical progression thing during the years preceding the game, but it was definitely said and I’d have been happier with the game if Anet had stuck to their guns.

But I can also understand why they didn’t.

Edit: Here’s why I say it’s not a promise.

Father: Okay everyone we’re going to the zoo tomorrow.

Tomorrow arrives, it’s raining. Most of the kids don’t want to go to the zoo in the rain. The situation has changed.

Father: Let’s go to the arcade instead. That’s still fun.

Those who had their hearts set on going to the zoo naturally are angry, but I’m not so sure dad promised to go to the zoo. It was his intention to go to the zoo however…and circumstances changed.

We’ve already exhausted this in another thread, but I see you took nothing away from it so I’m game.

Promise: 1 : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

The source is http://www.merriam-webster.com. That’s all a promise is. It can be legally bound by a contract (which we are not talking about here), or bound by a vow or oath, but what you are binding is a promise. And, a promise is “a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified”.

One freedom I will not allow you is the freedom to give words meanings other than their plain dictionary definition. And, please don’t go to nuance again here as it’s not needed. Nuance greatly enriches language and it’s often necessary when dealing with complex issues for which the language finds itself poor. The promise is not in need of nuance. It is simple and provides the basis for many significant business, personal, and legal concepts. And, that is why everyone is upset around Anet’s reversal on vertical progression. They broke a promise. Not a legally binding one, but a promise.

Anyone can look stuff up in the dictionary. You claim I learned nothing from the other thread. I could say the same about you.

Promise, to most people (at least in America) has a different definition that statement. Saying something isn’t promising it, which is why when people say something, someone else might ask, “promise?”.

In fact that’s practically a cliche. Because of the connotations of promise, using it with regard to casual statements is at best ambiguous and at worst misleading.

And I don’t really care if you agree or believe it…it happens to be true.

Promise, to most English speaking people is the 1a definition of promise. That’s actually why it’s the 1a definition. Your argument is not with me, but rather with the language as a vehicle to transmit meaning.

Your statement about someone asking “promise” has to do with what I previously described a “binding” a promise, either legally through a contract or through the mechanism of a vow or oath. It doesn’t matter, the thing bound is a promise:

Promise: 1 : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

And, a manifesto is not a casual statement of intention, it is rather a formal statement of intention that is intended to guide, in this case, the game over time. Do I need to define ‘manifesto’ for you as well?

Algreg.3629:

game developers are neither psychic nor omniscient. The manifesto is originally quite a few years old I guess. Ideas change and adapt when you implement them. Apparently the horizontal progression approach did not work very well, so here we are.

They managed to be “fastest selling MMO ever” based on exactly things from manifesto.

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Anet stated (I hate the word promise in this context) that if you grind for something in Guild Wars 2 it will be only cosmetic.

I don’t know at what point in time statements in interviews became promises. I see quite a large difference personally between a statement and a comment. After all, many statements are quite casual, where a promise implies something core.

I think I saw 3 mentions of the vertical progression thing during the years preceding the game, but it was definitely said and I’d have been happier with the game if Anet had stuck to their guns.

But I can also understand why they didn’t.

Edit: Here’s why I say it’s not a promise.

Father: Okay everyone we’re going to the zoo tomorrow.

Tomorrow arrives, it’s raining. Most of the kids don’t want to go to the zoo in the rain. The situation has changed.

Father: Let’s go to the arcade instead. That’s still fun.

Those who had their hearts set on going to the zoo naturally are angry, but I’m not so sure dad promised to go to the zoo. It was his intention to go to the zoo however…and circumstances changed.

We’ve already exhausted this in another thread, but I see you took nothing away from it so I’m game.

Promise: 1 : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

The source is http://www.merriam-webster.com. That’s all a promise is. It can be legally bound by a contract (which we are not talking about here), or bound by a vow or oath, but what you are binding is a promise. And, a promise is “a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified”.

One freedom I will not allow you is the freedom to give words meanings other than their plain dictionary definition. And, please don’t go to nuance again here as it’s not needed. Nuance greatly enriches language and it’s often necessary when dealing with complex issues for which the language finds itself poor. The promise is not in need of nuance. It is simple and provides the basis for many significant business, personal, and legal concepts. And, that is why everyone is upset around Anet’s reversal on vertical progression. They broke a promise. Not a legally binding one, but a promise.

Anyone can look stuff up in the dictionary. You claim I learned nothing from the other thread. I could say the same about you.

Promise, to most people (at least in America) has a different definition that statement. Saying something isn’t promising it, which is why when people say something, someone else might ask, “promise?”.

In fact that’s practically a cliche. Because of the connotations of promise, using it with regard to casual statements is at best ambiguous and at worst misleading.

And I don’t really care if you agree or believe it…it happens to be true.

Promise, to most English speaking people is the 1a definition of promise. That’s actually why it’s the 1a definition. Your argument is not with me, but rather with the language as a vehicle to transmit meaning.

Your statement about someone asking “promise” has to do with what I previously described a “binding” a promise, either legally through a contract or through the mechanism of a vow or oath. It doesn’t matter, the thing bound is a promise:

Promise: 1 : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

And, a manifesto is not a casual statement of intention, it is rather a formal statement of intention that is intended to guide, in this case, the game over time. Do I need to define ‘manifesto’ for you as well?

A manifesto isn’t a casual statement of intent…it’s a statement of intent. Which is considerably different from a promise. They intended to do something, they tried it, it didn’t work, they changed it.

There’s no way in any language I know you can call that a lie. You can if you want call it misleading. Is being misleading the same as lying? That’s a very different question. And then there’s the question of intent. Is being unintentionally misleading a lie?

Because of it’s connotations, whether you think this is true or not, lie is a bad choice of word. You can use it if you want. If you were one of my authors, I’d just change it before it went to print.

Altair.6109:

You gotta admit that all the changes that Anet did over the year, indeed brought them lots of potential customers. They are making more money right now, so y should they keep their promises?

I don’t like the changes either , but y not relax and enjoy the best of ur 50$?

Revenues are down 20% from quarter to quarter. So, um…no?

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

OP to the topic.. Last thing I heard about this was that Ascended gear was going to be the last tier.

Again, they never said that. They said they will not introduce another tier of gear in 2013. Meaning next year is open for debate.

MikaHR.1978:

Altair.6109:

You gotta admit that all the changes that Anet did over the year, indeed brought them lots of potential customers. They are making more money right now, so y should they keep their promises?

I don’t like the changes either , but y not relax and enjoy the best of ur 50$?

Revenues are down 20% from quarter to quarter. So, um…no?

Which it typical for most MMOs even successful ones. Most games (and books for that matter) sell in the first 90 day of it’s life span. I know this first hand. It’s not a guess.

There are exceptions to the rule, but they’re very rare.

Vayne.8563:

A manifesto isn’t a casual statement of intent…it’s a statement of intent. Which is considerably different from a promise. They intended to do something, they tried it, it didn’t work, they changed it.

There’s no way in any language I know you can call that a lie. You can if you want call it misleading. Is being misleading the same as lying? That’s a very different question. And then there’s the question of intent. Is being unintentionally misleading a lie?

Because of it’s connotations, whether you think this is true or not, lie is a bad choice of word. You can use it if you want. If you were one of my authors, I’d just change it before it went to print.

Please provide one quote where I called Anet’s breaking of their promise a ‘lie’. I’ll save you the time: I never made the statement. For the record I don’t believe that there was any intention to deceive in making the promise and then later breaking it.

The word promise has no negative connotations, just inconvenient ones. It is a simple word that is foundational to the way that we operate as humans in society. And, when a promise is broken there are repercussions and that is what we are talking about in all these threads. Anet could end it today with a clear mea culpa with the reasoning behind the change in direction, i.e., a clear renegotiation of the manifesto and other pre-release representations. Anet, for some reason, doesn’t want this to end…and so we continue.

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Altair.6109:

You gotta admit that all the changes that Anet did over the year, indeed brought them lots of potential customers. They are making more money right now, so y should they keep their promises?

I don’t like the changes either , but y not relax and enjoy the best of ur 50$?

Revenues are down 20% from quarter to quarter. So, um…no?

Which it typical for most MMOs even successful ones. Most games (and books for that matter) sell in the first 90 day of it’s life span. I know this first hand. It’s not a guess.

There are exceptions to the rule, but they’re very rare.

So in true words they are not making more money now than before.

Thaks for clarification.

Introducing the possibility of slight vertical progression through more ascended gear (or stronger infusions) does not mean that VP is necessary for players.

Actually the vast majority of PVE encounters (dungeon paths or world bosses) are so casual that you do not need any gear progression to beat them. And the challenge currently posed by the Tequatl encounter is not based on gear, but on the difficulty of organising properly 80+ people to do the right thing at the right moment.

In other words: the current state of the game does not require us to do any VP. You can do everything (quite well) in Exotics.

And thus GW2 remains different (better imo) from other MMOs, because it does not invalidate your current gear every six months.

Getting a full set of exotics + one or two ascended amulets/accessories is extremely easy and grind-less. I started playing three months ago and it took me about three weeks to level my first character to 80 (without trying hard or playing a lot as I have a full-time job). I could get a couple of ascended pieces for that character, as well as full exotic within another week — thanks to a bit of guild rushes/challenges and the laurels I got along the way.

So now I can focus on lore, content, exploring slowly the zones, doing the Living Story of the week if it strikes my fancy (or not), etc. Getting a Legendary or Ascended weapon would add only so very little to my ability of doing PVE content. I might do it as a way to keep myself busy, but the game does not require it from me. It is a nice change of pace, after two years of exhausting progression raiding on another MMO…