Guild Wars 2

DonQuack.9025:

Michael Walker.8150:

snip

Its strange to me. If I fail the fault ultimately lies on myself and my inadequacies So I tend to keep my mouth shut. If he fails its points above and such.

To teach someone who doesnt want to learn wont you need to force them?

Hehehe yes those players can be annoying I agree

yes, you will have forced somebody to learn if they didn’t want to and you did so.

my point is, you can’t force him, at least I dont know how. just telling him things isnt teaching either.

so you are left with telling him things and he doesn’t want to learn, no teaching has been done anywhere.

if you want to teach somebody something they are not interested in you need to make it interesting for them.

like telling him he can be even more stoned and have an even easier time pressing just one button if he follows your teachings.

I always hated learning about rocks in school, and even though i’ve been told many things about rocks I haven’t learned anything.

As soon as people find something interesting they will find channels that fit their style of learning and do so. it might be asking you or it might be watching a youtube channel.

There are many other reasons why somebody doesn’t learn, some just cant. usually though its because things arent interesting enough. this can be because the thing isn’t interesting, like rocks, it could also be that this person never though about what you could do with the knowledge about rocks etc.

Screw combo fields the bar has been lowered. Dodge.

I asked this question but it was never actually answered. How low do you want them to start?

Im not sure about dodge but im reasonably sure there was a pop up but i dont get hint pop ups anymore may be a bug.

One cant simply say " Press V and a directional key to dodge or you can double tap a directional key" I think the bar would have to be so low that it should be “Press V and a directional key to dodge or you can double tap a directional key. You can also change V to something more convenient by pressing Escape key and selecting keybinds. Then scrolling down to the dodge key and changing said key to the one you want it to be. Make sure that the new key isnt also currently in use.”

I play ofp/arma. The basic stuff is ingame. Most people still dont know them. A requirement to even play in one of my guilds is the knowing of http://ttp2.dslyecxi.com/ .

Also i desperately want to scream " outside research? its in the darn game just mouse over your skills press skill" http://youtu.be/96kwILL35ig?t=14s

I can understand not knowing what all of them do and how they affect things as not all professions have access to reliable finishers. but not knowing what a field is.

Anet needs to hit people hard with a tutorial. Really hard. Even if a lot of players hate going through an hour long tutorial, it’s needed in this game.

And not the kind of tutorial that teaches you how to use skill number 1 and then skill number 2.

Something that teaches you all you need to know about your profession regarding its skills and the combos it can do.

You don’t need to know any of those stuff in other to complete whatever you want in the game. But it certainly helps making things easier and faster for you and your party.

Right now, some players barely know any of those stuff. Some simply copy what’s happening in videos without even understanding what’s really happening (like pulling a boss in a corner when you have no FGS…or acting like the best player around and being incapable of stacking might).
Or not using your reflects on harpies.

RedStar.4218:

Anet needs to hit people hard with a tutorial. Really hard. Even if a lot of players hate going through an hour long tutorial, it’s needed in this game.

And not the kind of tutorial that teaches you how to use skill number 1 and then skill number 2.

Something that teaches you all you need to know about your profession regarding its skills and the combos it can do.

You don’t need to know any of those stuff in other to complete whatever you want in the game. But it certainly helps making things easier and faster for you and your party.

Right now, some players barely know any of those stuff. Some simply copy what’s happening in videos without even understanding what’s really happening (like pulling a boss in a corner when you have no FGS…or acting like the best player around and being incapable of stacking might).
Or not using your reflects on harpies.

Thank you. Something I can understand. Hour long- indepth- hard. Im assuming hard means unskippable/ have to complete objectives?

Sorta like titan falls tutorial. IIRC you couldnt actually play the full game unless you finished the tutorial and it required you to successfully demonstrate basic proficiency.

Michael Walker.8150:

just telling him things isnt teaching either.

That is teaching unless books dont teach. Also do I really need to tell him " Do this because you wont die as much. Thus not being angry. Thus not rage quitting?" Ofcourse that is under the assumption that he actually wants to win and isnt a mas-dere.
Sorta like me and pugging dungeons.

Dodging seems quite low…
I have never seen a single player who has never used dodge in a dungeon, that player might have used it the wrong way but I have never gotten once the impression that there are players at lvl 80 who genuinely don’t know that dodge exists.
Also, dont forget that the game can be played without dodging entirely, at least the story parts/casual parts

Combo fields are things that could be included in a tutorial, but again the game works without and even dungeons work without combo fields. It just slows the gameplay but it doesn’t stop it.

So I am back at the point of “why would anybody want to learn?”

I don’t think a casual player cares about making a dungeon run 2 minutes shorter if he/she only plays for an hour every day.

Furthermore combo fields are subject to change, as anything in an mmo and some players might not want to invest the time to be up to date.

Then there is the point that not every class has every combo field availlable and again, the casual player might not want to learn about “other” classes or combo fields.

So you would have to make a tutorial that teaches_everything_which is a lot in gw2 (less for some?) and therefore make the tutorial optional, which again might lead to nobody but already converted people might do.

GW2 is in a pretty good spot when it comes to what mechanics are explained/taught/forced down your throat.

It would be nice to have a place to look up all the mechanics though

DonQuack.9025:

That is teaching unless books dont teach. Also do I really need to tell him " Do this because you wont die as much. Thus not being angry. Thus not rage quitting?" Ofcourse that is under the assumption that he actually wants to win and isnt a mas-dere.
Sorta like me and pugging dungeons.

It’s mostly called reading first and foremost, learning requires a person who learned something from what he/she read about.
Books can or cannot teach, if it doesn’t fit the learning pattern of the reader, it probably wont teach much.

you assume that the things you say are being heard and understood and processed and concluded so that learning can take place, which isnt always the case as you might have seen with your stoner friend :P

This is a huge huge problem when designing tutorials in general, the “best” (for you, or me or xy) tutorial is worthless if…well if it’s worthless for another person. Finding this compromise between action and reaction between game/tutorial and player is hard, very hard.

Also, lets assume I learn_everything_about fire and…uhm lets say light and chaos fields. I still won’t know anything about the stacking field and you might think I haven’t learned anything.

A game complex as GW2 offers several “steps of knowledge” inbetween and that should be considered as well.

So one might make the tutorials to only cover the basics (let’s say dodge) but other players, like yourself, would not see that as “Knowing the game”.
However, you yourself don’t know about “exception xy” under “yx circumstances” and I could claim that you don’t know the game even though you know 99% of it.

yes….yes….you would look up whatever is missing :P :P

PS.
I should mention I’m only kittening around because I think the “lazy players” perspective is valuable to designing those things

Good points. I presume it would have to make basic assumptions and then hope that sparked enough curiosity that the player would seek out more info.

Im gonna go with human guardian commoner as I key farm and thats the one I remember the most right now.

1. spawn after you talk to guy a pop up with a small unskippable video pops up demonstrating dodge against centaurs no text cuz words are bad
2. 1 centaur attacks you. You have to successfully dodge 4 times to unlock first attack skill aka #1
3. unskippable Video pops up showing you how to attack + dodge You have kill said centaur whilst dodging 3 attacks.
4.2 centaurs attack. see 3
5. 3 centaurs attack unskippable video pops up warning players about letting ranged chars kite them and how dodge projectiles. Has to dodge 2 melee attack and 3 ranged attacks.

ofc thats leaving out the third hit on the guardian is a low burst heal that takes longer than the first two hits so player may want to cancel that animation. blargh all I can see is massive complications.
etc etc?
88edit88
:D as I said I may be stuck in my ways. I mean my first thought on reading your reply was " its possible to read and not learn?* see image below

Astral Projections.7320:

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Right now the game requires reading to learn. This has several problems that I can see.

One is that not all people can read. There are large numbers of functionally illiterate people out there. However if they plunked down the money for the game then they are entitled to the same care and consideration as the fluent readers. Which means a method of teaching that isn’t reading base.

Intellectual incuriosity. A person can be intellectually incurious and yet still learn if the game teaches as you play, the same way thay people will learn that fire is hot without looking it up. Life taught them this without requiring them to research it.

Different brains are wired differently. Some people learn easily through reading while others require a hands on approach to learning. These people can be intellectually curious and look it up yet not have the information sink in until they do it themselves.

Many people “just want to play, not do research”. There is no reason that the game should fail to teach them. The designers should be well aware that this is a subset of their players.

Lack of understanding that there is even something to look up. Or not knowing where to look it up.

Truly, to learn how to play a game, at least the basic information should be taught in game. If there are people who get to level 80 and ask then what a combo field is, then the game is relying to much on outside research.

Did you seriously just say that READING shouldn’t be a requirement to play the game??? I’m all for tutorials to introduce game-specific mechanics like the importance of dodging, combo fields, and condition caps. But I do not want hand-holding and I definitely don’t want a game reduced to a picture book for those who can’t take the time to learn to read. Honestly, it’s a pretty important life skill. I’m all for freedom to live your life as you wish, but learning to read should come before hours on GW2. How can you play if you can’t read tooltips and trait descriptions? I really hope this post was in jest.

Also, the hands on approach is actually playing the game. What’s required is some sort of guidance. You need to be told that combo fields exist, and then it’s up to you to test them out, hand on.

DonQuack.9025:

Thank you. Something I can understand. Hour long- indepth- hard. Im assuming hard means unskippable/ have to complete objectives?

Sorta like titan falls tutorial. IIRC you couldnt actually play the full game unless you finished the tutorial and it required you to successfully demonstrate basic proficiency.

Something that’s profession specific and really takes you by the hand and tells you exactly what to do. Then you have to complete a test that can only be completed by using all the things you have learned.

For examples, guardians will have to use all of their blocks/invunerabilty/aegis to survive a part of the test. They will have to pull monsters together, or use line and ring of warding. Then use all of their reflects.

It certainly won’t be fun. But at least it will teach you nearly everything that you need to know about your skills.

Unfortunately, this is soon to be a 2 year old game and something like that requires too much work. It won’t happen.
But an in-game book with pictures will sure be a nice substitute. And force people to read it.

ignoring the differences between the games this is how vind teaches new skills

http://postimg.org/image/huzrlu7xl/

A video showing how its done using mouse. Text showing how its done using keyboard. Maybe a mix o that?

edit

RedStar.4218:

DonQuack.9025:

Thank you. Something I can understand. Hour long- indepth- hard. Im assuming hard means unskippable/ have to complete objectives?

Sorta like titan falls tutorial. IIRC you couldnt actually play the full game unless you finished the tutorial and it required you to successfully demonstrate basic proficiency.

Something that’s profession specific and really takes you by the hand and tells you exactly what to do. Then you have to complete a test that can only be completed by using all the things you have learned.

For examples, guardians will have to use all of their blocks/invunerabilty/aegis to survive a part of the test. They will have to pull monsters together, or use line and ring of warding. Then use all of their reflects.

It certainly won’t be fun. But at least it will teach you nearly everything that you need to know about your skills.

Unfortunately, this is soon to be a 2 year old game and something like that requires too much work. It won’t happen.
But an in-game book with pictures will sure be a nice substitute. And force people to read it.

Thats actually something other games sorta do. Tera being one I think.

You start out with a max level char. use tons of cool skills get a feel for the class. Then you lose you memory or something and start from level one. again ofc there are so many variables with the weapons skills etc.

p.s Im glad I dont do this for a living or anything artistic. Wouldnt be able to stand all the this is how you do it from everyone. Id scream well do it your g’darnself before i jumped off roof

That’d be nice.
Anything that teaches players what they can do in certain situation with the skills and traits they have.

Seras.5702:

Astral Projections.7320:

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Right now the game requires reading to learn. This has several problems that I can see.

One is that not all people can read. There are large numbers of functionally illiterate people out there. However if they plunked down the money for the game then they are entitled to the same care and consideration as the fluent readers. Which means a method of teaching that isn’t reading base.

Intellectual incuriosity. A person can be intellectually incurious and yet still learn if the game teaches as you play, the same way thay people will learn that fire is hot without looking it up. Life taught them this without requiring them to research it.

Different brains are wired differently. Some people learn easily through reading while others require a hands on approach to learning. These people can be intellectually curious and look it up yet not have the information sink in until they do it themselves.

Many people “just want to play, not do research”. There is no reason that the game should fail to teach them. The designers should be well aware that this is a subset of their players.

Lack of understanding that there is even something to look up. Or not knowing where to look it up.

Truly, to learn how to play a game, at least the basic information should be taught in game. If there are people who get to level 80 and ask then what a combo field is, then the game is relying to much on outside research.

Did you seriously just say that READING shouldn’t be a requirement to play the game??? I’m all for tutorials to introduce game-specific mechanics like the importance of dodging, combo fields, and condition caps. But I do not want hand-holding and I definitely don’t want a game reduced to a picture book for those who can’t take the time to learn to read. Honestly, it’s a pretty important life skill. I’m all for freedom to live your life as you wish, but learning to read should come before hours on GW2. How can you play if you can’t read tooltips and trait descriptions? I really hope this post was in jest.

Also, the hands on approach is actually playing the game. What’s required is some sort of guidance. You need to be told that combo fields exist, and then it’s up to you to test them out, hand on.

Where did I say that reading shouldn’t be a requirement?

I was saying that different people have different capabilities and different ways of learning and that games should take these differences into account when designing a game and into consideration if they are going to make a tutorial.

Astral Projections.7320:

Seras.5702:

Astral Projections.7320:

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Right now the game requires reading to learn. This has several problems that I can see.

One is that not all people can read. There are large numbers of functionally illiterate people out there. However if they plunked down the money for the game then they are entitled to the same care and consideration as the fluent readers. Which means a method of teaching that isn’t reading base.

Intellectual incuriosity. A person can be intellectually incurious and yet still learn if the game teaches as you play, the same way thay people will learn that fire is hot without looking it up. Life taught them this without requiring them to research it.

Different brains are wired differently. Some people learn easily through reading while others require a hands on approach to learning. These people can be intellectually curious and look it up yet not have the information sink in until they do it themselves.

Many people “just want to play, not do research”. There is no reason that the game should fail to teach them. The designers should be well aware that this is a subset of their players.

Lack of understanding that there is even something to look up. Or not knowing where to look it up.

Truly, to learn how to play a game, at least the basic information should be taught in game. If there are people who get to level 80 and ask then what a combo field is, then the game is relying to much on outside research.

Did you seriously just say that READING shouldn’t be a requirement to play the game??? I’m all for tutorials to introduce game-specific mechanics like the importance of dodging, combo fields, and condition caps. But I do not want hand-holding and I definitely don’t want a game reduced to a picture book for those who can’t take the time to learn to read. Honestly, it’s a pretty important life skill. I’m all for freedom to live your life as you wish, but learning to read should come before hours on GW2. How can you play if you can’t read tooltips and trait descriptions? I really hope this post was in jest.

Also, the hands on approach is actually playing the game. What’s required is some sort of guidance. You need to be told that combo fields exist, and then it’s up to you to test them out, hand on.

Where did I say that reading shouldn’t be a requirement?

I was saying that different people have different capabilities and different ways of learning and that games should take these differences into account when designing a game and into consideration if they are going to make a tutorial.

Astral Projections.7320:

A picture is worth a thousand words.

*Right now the game requires reading to learn. This has several problems that I can see. *

One is that not all people can read. There are large numbers of functionally illiterate people out there. However if they plunked down the money for the game then they are entitled to the same care and consideration as the fluent readers. Which means a method of teaching that isn’t reading base.

That essentially says that not everyone can read, and that’s a problem because the game should be accessible to even those who can’t read, so a non-reading based tutorial must be instituted.

Are you trying to hint at the game showing visual cutscene examples of how to use skills rather than tooltips and popups? I suppose that’s an option. But that requires a lot more programming time/effort, not to mention it interrupts play to watch.

Ideally, the best option would be for more comprehensive teaching through challenges that require specific skills to accomplish. First time players would get this by default, while alts would have the option to skip it. Like a mission choice similar to when we choose Orders to direct us into training or directly into the action. These training sessions wouldn’t have to be mundane target golem stuff, but accompanying a sergeant on some beginner raids to test the player’s ability to use the various class-specific mechanics, combos, conditions, dodging, etc. Cap it all off with a “surprise” attack on the training fields, forcing the player to defend the area by utilizing everything they’ve learned. It can honestly be done in a couple short levels.

It gets the player some hands-on learning while avoiding dumbing it down too much. Something like this would also adequately educate new players and familiarize themselves with the various class mechanics so-as to allow a return to where traits used to be. This 30/60/80 stuff has got to go.

Yea that could work but the sheer scope of it all. Just elementalist and engineer alone will be complicated as heck. Though I may be overthinking it.

No, you’re right. Ideally, this should have been done at launch.

Seras.5702:

Astral Projections.7320:

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Right now the game requires reading to learn. This has several problems that I can see.

One is that not all people can read. There are large numbers of functionally illiterate people out there. However if they plunked down the money for the game then they are entitled to the same care and consideration as the fluent readers. Which means a method of teaching that isn’t reading base.

Intellectual incuriosity. A person can be intellectually incurious and yet still learn if the game teaches as you play, the same way thay people will learn that fire is hot without looking it up. Life taught them this without requiring them to research it.

Different brains are wired differently. Some people learn easily through reading while others require a hands on approach to learning. These people can be intellectually curious and look it up yet not have the information sink in until they do it themselves.

Many people “just want to play, not do research”. There is no reason that the game should fail to teach them. The designers should be well aware that this is a subset of their players.

Lack of understanding that there is even something to look up. Or not knowing where to look it up.

Truly, to learn how to play a game, at least the basic information should be taught in game. If there are people who get to level 80 and ask then what a combo field is, then the game is relying to much on outside research.

Did you seriously just say that READING shouldn’t be a requirement to play the game??? I’m all for tutorials to introduce game-specific mechanics like the importance of dodging, combo fields, and condition caps. But I do not want hand-holding and I definitely don’t want a game reduced to a picture book for those who can’t take the time to learn to read. Honestly, it’s a pretty important life skill. I’m all for freedom to live your life as you wish, but learning to read should come before hours on GW2. How can you play if you can’t read tooltips and trait descriptions? I really hope this post was in jest.

Also, the hands on approach is actually playing the game. What’s required is some sort of guidance. You need to be told that combo fields exist, and then it’s up to you to test them out, hand on.

Allow me to point you to a particular video posted on the first page of this thread. I suggest you watch it. (Go do it seriously. Its hilarious.)

Conveyance is important. ~~~

After you are done watching it you can come back here and tell me how reading is a requirement at playing a game, and how this video (And subsequent game) did it wrong.

The point is, its far easier to teach someone through images than it is to teach through words. The human brain is wired from birth to associate things visually with words (barring any birth defect). It is the environment that the person lives in that changes the way they think after that.

Are you seriously comparing megaman to gw2 ? or how about this. GW2 red circle equal bad. I know people who are oblivious to this fact.

Also did you hear when he said that devs thought players are dumb and cant identify simple patterns in their head. As a player of fps’s… Majority of players I see probably need a pop up that tells them he killed you here the last 4 times maybe you should go different route.

Are you seriously saying all current game can be fixed to use NO words and simply conveyance?

gg up down left right jump shoot

also #1
You have to read to buy it/ know it exists/find out price/ heck can you even start gw2 without reading?

That video on thinking about it is mostly opinionated hogwash passed off as fact and regurgitated by those that agree with it.

Seras.5702:

No, you’re right. Ideally, this should have been done at launch.

Actually im not even sure there. Consider how many skills have changed rather drastically.

DonQuack.9025:

Are you seriously comparing megaman to gw2 ? or how about this. GW2 red circle equal bad. I know people who are oblivious to this fact.

Are you seriously saying all current game can be fixed to use NO words and simply conveyance?

gg up down left right jump shoot

also #1
You have to read to buy it/ know it exists/find out price/ heck can you even start gw2 without reading?

All things considered. Yes. Fact is there are so many games out there that give either no assistance, and thus seem “hard” or they give so much that you feel like the game treats you like a child. The point is, most games that follow what Megaman did show just “hit this button” due to the fact you are playing on more complex control set ups. As for reading that should be all you really need. Having an in depth and detailed wall of text will only appeal to the players that like reading, can read and are willing to, or is only if the text is translated in a way that makes sense to someone who doesn’t read the original language.

In other words, Reading is a barrier. Images can overcome the reading barrier faster, and far more efficiently. To further bring home this point, some people play on massive monitors, with high resolutions. High resolutions often involve shrinking the UI and making the text smaller as well. I don’t know about you but reading small text is hard to do, and even harder on my eyes especially when there are flashes and action all over my screen. Flashy games as they are now do not help the “reading as a requirement” argument in the slightest.

In before someone says I haven’t a clue what I’m talking about, I have a bachelors in game design. I had to study this very thing during the curriculum. I had to go look at hideously bad games and actually talk about what they did wrong.

Edit to add your edit*

Also did you hear when he said that devs thought players are dumb and cant identify simple patterns in their head. As a player of fps’s… Majority of players I see probably need a pop up that tells them he killed you here the last 4 times maybe you should go different route.

The fact you brought this up only shows me that “In FPS games” which are commonly hacked and overly competitive “People are to stupid to identify strategic placement” This doesn’t mean EVERYONE is going to fall into that same trap. You act as if painting all players with the same brush is efficient. On top of that I have yet to see any FPS that uses proper instances of conveyance. They just throw a gun in your hands and say “Have fun”. Which to be honest is all most people who flock to FPS games really want. It doesn’t give new to the genre players any real assistance with “How to play”. Much like fighting games do. These are niche markets. Getting smaller and smaller due to the brick wall of text they throw at new players, if they throw any help at all.

DiazKincade.2891:

DonQuack.9025:

Are you seriously comparing megaman to gw2 ? or how about this. GW2 red circle equal bad. I know people who are oblivious to this fact.

Are you seriously saying all current game can be fixed to use NO words and simply conveyance?

gg up down left right jump shoot

also #1
You have to read to buy it/ know it exists/find out price/ heck can you even start gw2 without reading?

All things considered. Yes. Fact is there are so many games out there that give either no assistance, and thus seem “hard” or they give so much that you feel like the game treats you like a child. The point is, most games that follow what Megaman did show just “hit this button” due to the fact you are playing on more complex control set ups. As for reading that should be all you really need. Having an in depth and detailed wall of text will only appeal to the players that like reading, can read and are willing to, or is only if the text is translated in a way that makes sense to someone who doesn’t read the original language.

In other words, Reading is a barrier. Images can overcome the reading barrier faster, and far more efficiently. To further bring home this point, some people play on massive monitors, with high resolutions. High resolutions often involve shrinking the UI and making the text smaller as well. I don’t know about you but reading small text is hard to do, and even harder on my eyes especially when there are flashes and action all over my screen. Flashy games as they are now do not help the “reading as a requirement” argument in the slightest.

In before someone says I haven’t a clue what I’m talking about, I have a bachelors in game design. I had to study this very thing during the curriculum. I had to go look at hideously bad games and actually talk about what they did wrong.

Edit to add your edit*

Also did you hear when he said that devs thought players are dumb and cant identify simple patterns in their head. As a player of fps’s… Majority of players I see probably need a pop up that tells them he killed you here the last 4 times maybe you should go different route.

The fact you brought this up only shows me that “In FPS games” which are commonly hacked and overly competitive “People are to stupid to identify strategic placement” This doesn’t mean EVERYONE is going to fall into that same trap. You act as if painting all players with the same brush is efficient. On top of that I have yet to see any FPS that uses proper instances of conveyance. They just throw a gun in your hands and say “Have fun”. Which to be honest is all most people who flock to FPS games really want. It doesn’t give new to the genre players any real assistance with “How to play”. Much like fighting games do. These are niche markets. Getting smaller and smaller due to the brick wall of text they throw at new players, if they throw any help at all.

Lol you mean like cod,bf dayZ. You mean like the massive amounts of conveyance minecraft has? or angry birds?

I sorta left out gw2’s red circles. I see massive amounts of people not avoiding them.

As a fellow holder of a b.s. albiet in nursing instead of game design I dont know how it is in your field but experience is way more valued than I have a b.s. Now if you said masters maybe but then again most masters programs I know of require experience.

I should ask what school you went to where most of what you learned was via pictures/video/maybe lecture? but then again I know nothing about game design.

Furthermore as a game designer why are your suggestions so vague. Even I came up with an example as did one or 2 other. How would you do it? without the use of text?

DonQuack.9025:

Lol you mean like cod,bf dayZ. You mean like the massive amounts of conveyance minecraft has? or angry birds?

As a fellow holder of a b.s. albiet in nursing instead of game design I dont know how it is in your field but experience is way more valued than I have a b.s. Now if you said masters maybe but then again most masters programs I know of require experience.

I should ask what school you went to where most of what you learned was via pictures/video/maybe lecture? but then again I know nothing about game design.

I know I posted a large wall of text but did you bother to read any of it? I stated clearly that most games now don’t teach the player enough about their game, or they try to teach the player so much that it all becomes a blur and they learn nothing. The human brain takes awhile to process information. Telling someone something in a thousand words means that that person has to process those words while on that same note, showing them a picture gives them a chance to process that information at their own pace rather than yours. While reading is important in most games today it is not a requirement to teach players mechanics, when those same mechanics can easily be portrayed far more effectively with a visual aid.

Minecraft, as you pointed out, teaches you basically nothing about the game, in terms of crafting. The conveyance they use is “Night is bad”. They don’t tell you much more than that. There isn’t anything telling you “Hey you can punch trees”. However through player experimentation you find out this. Minecraft has no tutorial. If you want to learn how to craft things you either need to spend hours in game combining everything you happen to find in every possible combination possible or go to the wiki. Having to search outside of a game for an in game solution means the game has bad conveyance. (I’ve only played the PC version. I do know the xbox version has an in game cheat sheet of crafting.)

Comparatively a game similar to this had the perfect solution. The Guide npc. Yes I’m talking about Terraria. You just had to go over to this guy and show him an item and he is like “Oh you can make all these things with that.” He didn’t give you an encyclopedia of text to read. Just an easy list of potential items.

To be fair, most FPS (as I stated) don’t have that much conveyance. It is a blessing and a curse to the genre. Old players don’t feel the need to have their hand held through the early stages of the game, yet new to the genre players don’t know what they are doing or know how to see a potential trap. Most games that use conveyance effectively are Platformers or Action Adventures. That said some of them are a little to
“hand holding” for some of the more avid gamers of that genre.

For reference Digital Entertainment and Game Design is all about visuals and trying to show clients something as quick and efficiently as possible. Something you really can’t do with words. That said it is not limited to just game design. Every school dealing with design is visual, including but not limited to Fashion, Art, Theater, and Video.

DiazKincade.2891:

~~
On top of that my analogy is perfectly fine. No one wants to read an encyclopedia when the information can be effectively portrayed to the player through visual aids. If you don’t believe me take a look at the second pic from GW1. How many people knew what “in the area” meant? This gives a fairly exact model of the ranges that were available for skills in GW1. This explained so much more than a wall of text ever could have. That line “A picture is worth a thousand words” is exactly what this diagram represented. Something as simple as this training ground would go a long way to helping players understand the mechanics of the game. There is a simplified variation in PVP but that area is not always where pve players are going to be going. It also misses several key elements such as combo fields and finishers. Most of the training grounds are just dps test dummies (which are limited to the pvp stat types and sigil/rune sets). The npc class test dummies are also relatively generic and don’t teach you much about the classes that are available. On top of that not everyone who goes there even knows about the different things in that area. If they were to break the testing grounds away from the PVP lobby and make it a separate thing, or even just clone that and make it available from a pve location that would help people find the information without having to leave the game and search for “outside” help.

As nice as the testing aspect of the pvp “realm” is its horribly inaccurate for pve stats and effect tracking. If they were to allow a testing like element similar to pvp (something only available in that area) it would also help players understand the different types of gear and what roles they can potentially play.

DonQuack.9025:

Furthermore as a game designer why are your suggestions so vague. Even I came up with an example as did one or 2 other. How would you do it? without the use of text?

I’ve posted suggestions all throughout this thread. The one I re-quoted of myself (from the last page) was an excellent post that went unmentioned by most everyone in the thread (There was only one person who made any mention of it). I even posted pictures from GW1 showing how they did it for that game. I’ll re-post that picture as well to save you from digging back a page.

Forgive me for thinking people actually read every page in a thread (I don’t even read them all myself normally).

“Projectiles”

Certain attacks are classified as projectiles. A number of skills can be used to either reflect or block those projectiles.
- Wall of Reflection (Consecration, 40s recharge, 10s duration, light combo field) : Protect the targeted area with a wall of mystic power that reflects projectiles.
[insert image of a Guardia reflecting projectiles with WoR, or bette a video]
Affected by :
*Master of consecration : reduced recharge to 32s, increase duration to 12s
**Consecrated ground : Wall of Reflection can be ground target with a range of 900

Etc for Shield of Absortion, Shield of the Avenger and Zealot’s defense.

Basically something that’s simple and clear.

As for the AoE range example, that only really works well with AoE range. To this day, I barely have any idea how far 900 actually is. I could read thousand words papers on it and would still be clueless because it’s one of those things that are quite terribly done in this game. They give us those numbers but no visual aid. In GW1 you at least had the radar to help you.
In GW2 all I know is that above 1200 you can be quite far away and under 600 you might as well hug the enemy.

The best is to have both a visual aid and a text description for details.

As for people who can’t read, well I know a bunch who got better at reading (or learned english) from reading in video games. So having a tutorial with heavy reading needed, it’s not a barrier to players who have reading problems.
They could try to make it even easier for those players by actually building an interactive tutorial with NPC saying out loud the general informations.

But once again, 2 year old game. Anet won’t do that.

It doesn’t have to be manual OR action based tutorial. You can have both. In fact, it is preferable to have the manual for deeper information, but for tutorial missions to have the basics.

My idea for teaching the players things would involve 3 things:

#1: A text that says what something is.
#2: NPCs that performs unsaid actions alongside of the players
#3: A voiceover explaining the concept that is being taught.

Combined with a manual, this will give players a resource to which they can defer, should they forget what is being taught. This would take place in an instanced mission based on class, and the more complex concepts would be taught at later levels. Should a class lack something from the lesson, an environmental weapon can be used to provide anything that is needed.

The goal being to move the game concepts from “teaching” mode to “exploration” mode. Once a player understands a combo field (personally, I’d use smoke for the tutorial, since stealth is pretty big), then it isn’t too much of a hop before the player starts experimenting with their own fields and finishers. Then, the player isn’t trying to memorize for at test or a lecture, but just trying to see what happens when a particular attack hits a particular field. And thus, by seeing it happen, they learn what happens.

It isn’t necessary to teach a player about EVERY class, or about all currently used team tactics. It is only important to teach players the fundamentals, and then when they see those tactics they’ll understand why players do what they do. Of course, some subjects such as experience gain don’t need an instanced mission to teach.

The means of play are important, though. If you just say “push V to dodge”, then players aren’t learning something. It is important to teach that dodging, blocking, reflecting, and invulnerability are meant to be an active form of defense, and not to rely on passive stats like other MMOs do.

This is a good thread.

nice thread! your posts are always interesting

Astral Projections.7320:

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Right now the game requires reading to learn. This has several problems that I can see.

One is that not all people can read. There are large numbers of functionally illiterate people out there. However if they plunked down the money for the game then they are entitled to the same care and consideration as the fluent readers. Which means a method of teaching that isn’t reading base.

Intellectual incuriosity. A person can be intellectually incurious and yet still learn if the game teaches as you play, the same way thay people will learn that fire is hot without looking it up. Life taught them this without requiring them to research it.

Different brains are wired differently. Some people learn easily through reading while others require a hands on approach to learning. These people can be intellectually curious and look it up yet not have the information sink in until they do it themselves.

Many people “just want to play, not do research”. There is no reason that the game should fail to teach them. The designers should be well aware that this is a subset of their players.

Lack of understanding that there is even something to look up. Or not knowing where to look it up.

Truly, to learn how to play a game, at least the basic information should be taught in game. If there are people who get to level 80 and ask then what a combo field is, then the game is relying to much on outside research.

I agree. This is simply another case where the game developer failed In their responsibilities to it’s playerbase with an item that other games handle reasonably well…. Tutorials…( if they can handle tutorials, why can’t Anet?).

I think that Anet need not fear. Judging from the responses. There seems to be an endless stream of players that do not expect a lot from Anet. That seem completely happy with anything they do, and if they don’t do something that any other game company is able to do..( provide a decent tutorial) .. they don’t seem to care or be bothered.

In that sense Anet crafted the perfect game, in a perfect way, to suit it’s target audience.

Anyone else that has any complaints seems Like at least judging from this target playerbase… " Good riddance, don’t need ya… there’s the door. "

So Anet sent a mail today, with really basic combat stuff. And while it’s really basic stuff, it’s also a nice start to hopefully something more in depth and maybe in game one day ^^

As much as I agree with the OP, there is another problem. This game is pretty much gear gated. Did you take a look at the cost and requirements for ascended? it is pretty much a time/gold sink. Not all players will be wearing the correct combination of gear and food buffs to allow a bump in difficulty. It is also the reason why wvwvw is one of the most unbalanced game modes. Theory crafting became much more expensive in this game which limits the potential of diversity.

Sometimes I wonder if levels and gear are all mistakes and games should create difficulty through content.

loseridoit.2756:

As much as I agree with the OP, there is another problem. This game is pretty much gear gated. Did you take a look at the cost and requirements for ascended? it is pretty much a time/gold sink. Not all players will be wearing the correct combination of gear and food buffs to allow a bump in difficulty. It is also the reason why wvwvw is one of the most unbalanced game modes. Theory crafting became much more expensive in this game which limits the potential of diversity.

Sometimes I wonder if levels and gear are all mistakes and games should create difficulty through content.

I sincerely doubt food buffs and ascended equipments ever come up as main points when people discuss while WvW is unbalanced.

As for gear gated it’s not. We used to ran everything just fine in exotics.
Of course, now it’d be terrible on our part to not have at least ascended trinkets with fractals, guild commendations and laurels. Weapons aren’t too hard to do, if you have a bit of patience.
As for armor, well I agree that this one costs a lot…for so little, so you can do just fine without one.

Im amazed at how this all makes so much sense and I knew something was wrong but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Every new player we get into our guild ends up being a week or two of teaching them how to play. Since we steamroll dungeons regularly we are teaching them about the more advanced aspects of the game, but most players have the most basic of questions.

…and dont even get me started on Fractals. If I have to read off the /wiki agony page one more time I might choke.

I agree with a lot of what’s been said throughout the entire thread and don’t really feel it necessary to repeat them (you can figure out the trend of the thread after a page and a half if you actually read everything).

My opinion is that people should have both a required intro to as well as a side area (like in HotM) where it’s similar/identical to how it was in GW1. NPCs lined up in a row that had conditions on them/applied conditions to you if you stepped in their circle. Make people go through it to some extent/reward them for doing so. Flash something across their screen that tells them to hover their mouse over skills to learn what they do. So on and so on.

RedStar.4218:

loseridoit.2756:

As much as I agree with the OP, there is another problem. This game is pretty much gear gated. Did you take a look at the cost and requirements for ascended? it is pretty much a time/gold sink. Not all players will be wearing the correct combination of gear and food buffs to allow a bump in difficulty. It is also the reason why wvwvw is one of the most unbalanced game modes. Theory crafting became much more expensive in this game which limits the potential of diversity.

Sometimes I wonder if levels and gear are all mistakes and games should create difficulty through content.

I sincerely doubt food buffs and ascended equipments ever come up as main points when people discuss while WvW is unbalanced.

As for gear gated it’s not. We used to ran everything just fine in exotics.
Of course, now it’d be terrible on our part to not have at least ascended trinkets with fractals, guild commendations and laurels. Weapons aren’t too hard to do, if you have a bit of patience.
As for armor, well I agree that this one costs a lot…for so little, so you can do just fine without one.

i actually remember fight a certain ele. During those times, I was wearing exotic but a really bad combination of exotics and that player was wearing the best combination of everything with food buffs.

I basically tried everything I could and I keep dying in a under a minute. Its wasnt that I was terrible bad and I did surprise that person a few times. Later, I realize I had to really bad combination of stats and regardless anything I do I will lose. The opponents damage is too high and I hit like a wet noodle.

In wvwvw, your stats matter. I learned that the hard way.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It doesn’t have to be manual OR action based tutorial. You can have both. In fact, it is preferable to have the manual for deeper information, but for tutorial missions to have the basics.

My idea for teaching the players things would involve 3 things:

#1: A text that says what something is.
#2: NPCs that performs unsaid actions alongside of the players
#3: A voiceover explaining the concept that is being taught.

Combined with a manual, this will give players a resource to which they can defer, should they forget what is being taught. This would take place in an instanced mission based on class, and the more complex concepts would be taught at later levels. Should a class lack something from the lesson, an environmental weapon can be used to provide anything that is needed.

The goal being to move the game concepts from “teaching” mode to “exploration” mode. Once a player understands a combo field (personally, I’d use smoke for the tutorial, since stealth is pretty big), then it isn’t too much of a hop before the player starts experimenting with their own fields and finishers. Then, the player isn’t trying to memorize for at test or a lecture, but just trying to see what happens when a particular attack hits a particular field. And thus, by seeing it happen, they learn what happens.

It isn’t necessary to teach a player about EVERY class, or about all currently used team tactics. It is only important to teach players the fundamentals, and then when they see those tactics they’ll understand why players do what they do. Of course, some subjects such as experience gain don’t need an instanced mission to teach.

The means of play are important, though. If you just say “push V to dodge”, then players aren’t learning something. It is important to teach that dodging, blocking, reflecting, and invulnerability are meant to be an active form of defense, and not to rely on passive stats like other MMOs do.

I don’t agree with GW2 problem is with the teaching but rather the game mechanics are not intuitive. If you have never play GW2 before how would you know about combo field? People do not know what is a combo field. People do not know how each skill interact with a combo field. It is like hidden secret room you would never find it unless you accidentally stumble on it or look up a guide.

You are wrong. Most people know how to dodge, many people can’t dodge properly to avoid damage. It require knowledge of monster attack pattern, observation and quick reflexes. Invincibility frames is a crutch in action rpg. It allow people to perform risky moves with no damage or penalty. GW2 focus on Invincibility frames as its form of defense is also its bane. Any slow reaction or lag and you will take the blow to your face.

loseridoit.2756:

i actually remember fight a certain ele. During those times, I was wearing exotic but a really bad combination of exotics and that player was wearing the best combination of everything with food buffs.

I basically tried everything I could and I keep dying in a under a minute. Its wasnt that I was terrible bad and I did surprise that person a few times. Later, I realize I had to really bad combination of stats and regardless anything I do I will lose. The opponents damage is too high and I hit like a wet noodle.

In wvwvw, your stats matter. I learned that the hard way.

The difference between Exotic Giver’s with Rune of the Guardian and Exotic Berserker’s with Rune of the Scholar in terms of damage is way bigger than with Ascended Berserker’s.

Then you have traits.

We could argue with hundreds of example if gear really matters over skill, but I don’t want to bother with that, when it’s been done over and over and over and over again through out the years.

But in the end, in WvW your stats only matter when you try to 1v1 or have really small group play. In WvW tiny fights are rarely what’s going to decided who wins the week.

RedStar.4218

The difference between Exotic Giver’s with Rune of the Guardian and Exotic Berserker’s with Rune of the Scholar in terms of damage is way bigger than with Ascended Berserker’s.

Then you have traits.

We could argue with hundreds of example if gear really matters over skill, but I don’t want to bother with that, when it’s been done over and over and over and over again through out the years.

over and over is not good enough. there are thousand of combinations of gear and traits. pvp cannot be carried over to wvwvw.

RedStar.4218:

But in the end, in WvW your stats only matter when you try to 1v1 or have really small group play. In WvW tiny fights are rarely what’s going to decided who wins the week.

here comes the problem. Most zergs in wvwvw are not organized in best combination of stats and profession combination. What happens when skill players and a well gear group organizes. They practically dominate wvwvw.

Please remember, wvwvw has the gear combination as pve. I am pretty sure that the devs didnt test all stats and trait combination.

The real problems is which group does the devs test content against. The people who theorycraft everything? Well, you officially make content that only less than 1% can complete. Some people might be skill enough to complete the content but they are limit by a bad metric such as dps.

tl:dr; gear combinations matter a bit too much. we are only lucky that the majority of the population suck, bad gear and do not organize. Anet officially created a real divide between theory craters and decent players.

I just want anet to lower the barriers to creating new build. As it stands, you have to modify your gear and food too.

Saylu.8271:

I don’t agree with GW2 problem is with the teaching but rather the game mechanics are not intuitive. If you have never play GW2 before how would you know about combo field? People do not know what is a combo field. People do not know how each skill interact with a combo field. It is like hidden secret room you would never find it unless you accidentally stumble on it or look up a guide.

If you actually take a moment to read what your skills do (which most people should be doing…), some of them mention combo fields. People who don’t care aren’t going to think beyond the numbers they see at the top of the box but those who are actually curious about the game can probably put 2&2 together.
There are two halves of a combo field. Both are clearly labeled on the skills that utilize the field. The only unclear thing about them are what effects they cause. Those are stated in big white text whenever they do interact. Doesn’t really seem that complicated to me.

You are wrong. Most people know how to dodge, many people can’t dodge properly to avoid damage.

Think about that for a moment. Then read it again and think over it again.

It require knowledge of monster attack pattern, observation and quick reflexes. Invincibility frames is a crutch in action rpg. It allow people to perform risky moves with no damage or penalty.

Most monsters are pretty telegraphed as far as when they’re going to attack or what kind of attack they’re going to use (AC spider queen rears back before she shoots poison aoe + immobilize ticks as an example). I’m not saying people should know immediately how to deal with a situation their first time, but everything aside from some of the dungeons and wurm/teq are pretty straightforward in that regard.

GW2 focus on Invincibility frames as its form of defense is also its bane. Any slow reaction or lag and you will take the blow to your face.

Not getting killed in melee if you don’t have the ability to soak the damage isn’t really a problem with dodging/not dodging. That’s a pretty big part of any mmo/rpg. If you’re squishy and can’t avoid the damage, don’t stand where you’re going to get downed/killed instantly. Common sense I’d hope.

TranquilInSpirit.6291:

If you actually take a moment to read what your skills do (which most people should be doing…), some of them mention combo fields. People who don’t care aren’t going to think beyond the numbers they see at the top of the box but those who are actually curious about the game can probably put 2&2 together.
There are two halves of a combo field. Both are clearly labeled on the skills that utilize the field. The only unclear thing about them are what effects they cause. Those are stated in big white text whenever they do interact. Doesn’t really seem that complicated to me.

If you have never play this game would you know what is a combo field and what to do? The tool tip mention combo fields and people are suppose to magically know what is a combo field and what to do. No. It isn’t intuitive at all.

Think about that for a moment. Then read it again and think over it again.

You should read it again. Nothing wrong with what I say

Most monsters are pretty telegraphed as far as when they’re going to attack or what kind of attack they’re going to use (AC spider queen rears back before she shoots poison aoe + immobilize ticks as an example). I’m not saying people should know immediately how to deal with a situation their first time, but everything aside from some of the dungeons and wurm/teq are pretty straightforward in that regard.

Nope. Large deadly moves are telegraphed, many attacks are not. Range pistol attack from a champ would have little telltale sign and you need split second reaction to dodge it.

Not getting killed in melee if you don’t have the ability to soak the damage isn’t really a problem with dodging/not dodging. That’s a pretty big part of any mmo/rpg. If you’re squishy and can’t avoid the damage, don’t stand where you’re going to get downed/killed instantly. Common sense I’d hope.

You have no idea what I am talking about. Gw2 utilize Invincibility frames to deal with burst damage, take that away and you have little in form of defense to deal with burst damage. Other games utilize other form of defense like multiply damage mitigation layers and burst healing.

Saylu.8271:

TranquilInSpirit.6291:

If you actually take a moment to read what your skills do (which most people should be doing…), some of them mention combo fields. People who don’t care aren’t going to think beyond the numbers they see at the top of the box but those who are actually curious about the game can probably put 2&2 together.
There are two halves of a combo field. Both are clearly labeled on the skills that utilize the field. The only unclear thing about them are what effects they cause. Those are stated in big white text whenever they do interact. Doesn’t really seem that complicated to me.

If you have never play this game would you know what is a combo field and what to do? The tool tip mention combo fields and people are suppose to magically know what is a combo field and what to do. No. It isn’t intuitive at all.

it depends on the class. If you were a mesmer, you prob have the weakest knowledge of a combo field. If you were a engineer or ele, combo fields matter so much more. You should be experts on it or else your builds kinda stink.

DiazKincade.2891:

The fact you brought this up only shows me that “In FPS games” which are commonly hacked

On top of that I have yet to see any FPS that uses proper instances of conveyance.

1) Lol

2) Because conveyance is so important for FPS games. Headshot. Headshot. Headshot. It basically makes FPS games accuracy games, which are fun. Like Duck Hunt but with kittens instead of ducks. If someone’s bad at FPS games, no amount of conveyance is going to make them better.

I can’t believe this thread is still going.

GW2 is still catered to a casual and easygoing market – because nobody wants to play a game where they have be some epic pro to do well. The beauty of GW2 is that a bearbow or cleric’s staff guard can go into any dungeon and complete it – maybe not in 20 minutes, but they can complete it.

Improvement requires experimentation and research – there’s really too much information to jam into the game. Such as dodging, people know what it is – doesn’t make them good at it.

TranquilInSpirit.6291:

Most people know how to dodge, many people can’t dodge properly to avoid damage.

Think about that for a moment. Then read it again and think over it again.

What’s to think about? He’s right. One can understand how dodge works, but be poor at implementing the knowledge due to many factors, like particle blur obscuring tells, poor systems with latency or lag issues, or poor twitch reflexes. I know how to hit a flop shot with a wedge while playing golf, but don’t always execute the shot properly. You’re equating, “Knows how to dodge.” with, “Has mastered dodging.” He’s equating, “Knows how to dodge.” with, “Knows you have to double tap a movement key or use the dodge key-bind.”

Then the correct sentence would be “mot people know how to press the dodge key-bind”.
(It’s playing on words, I know)

But people aren’t bothering to learn.
Yesterday I was in the harpies fractal 19, with a mesmer that seemed competent enough. Except, he wasn’t ever using feedback. Half-way through the fractal I got tired of it and said “feedback works on harpies ^^” to which he said “oh really ? I didn’t know” and then he started using feedback.

Feedback reflects projectiles. It doesn’t take a genius to guess that arrows and lighting orbs are projectiles.
Some might say “well a lot of things can’t be reflected now !” to which I’ll answer “at least try it once to find out if it can be reflected…”

I’m sure a lot of us have stories of players needing someone else to state the obvious such as :
-step out of the red aoe circles
-you see Kholer charging his attack for 3 seconds ? Dodge it
-you see Kholer spinning and doing a lot of damage to you ? Step away
-don’t stand in Frost’s ice ray. Move around him. It’s faster to move around him if you are really close to him.
-don’t stay in front of CM p3 first boss.

If you get killed over and over again, you should start thinking what’s killing you and how you can dodge that. Instead of doing the same mistake over and over and over again.

RedStar.4218:

So Anet sent a mail today, with really basic combat stuff. And while it’s really basic stuff, it’s also a nice start to hopefully something more in depth and maybe in game one day ^^

Just logged on myself. I consider this a personal victory myself, but I can’t help to think that a bit more should be done than just an e-mail with “attack” and “HP”. Those aren’t concepts that players don’t readily understand, so many people might brush off this information as pandering to the lowest common denominator (I.E. someone completely foreign to the concept of gaming or RPGs in general).

loseridoit.2756:

As much as I agree with the OP, there is another problem. This game is pretty much gear gated. Did you take a look at the cost and requirements for ascended? it is pretty much a time/gold sink. Not all players will be wearing the correct combination of gear and food buffs to allow a bump in difficulty. It is also the reason why wvwvw is one of the most unbalanced game modes. Theory crafting became much more expensive in this game which limits the potential of diversity.

Sometimes I wonder if levels and gear are all mistakes and games should create difficulty through content.

The only gate I can find regarding gear is in fractals via agony resistance. Exotic is more than sufficient for everything else in the game.

The differences between ascended and exotic are quite small, especially when compared to the gear tiers in other MMOs. I won’t go into full depth on this, but here’s a basic summation.

#1: Attribute bonuses. Full Ascended has 7.3% more attribute points than Exotic. This is even less when you factor in starting attributes (916 starting power, 84 effective precision, 750 effective ferocity, etc). Depending on which gear you use this changes, but for reference, full ascended berserker with 6 in power/prec/ferocity has only a (3.7% + 3.9% + 2.6%)/3 = 3.4% higher offensive stats, on average. Other stats are untouched.

#2: Secondary stat bonuses. Weapon attack power is 5% higher for ascended. Armor is 5% higher on average (5.1%, 5%, 4.9% depending on class), but factoring in standing toughness this comes to only a 2.6%, 2.7%, and 2.8% difference in armor for light, medium, and heavy classes respectively.

Put it all together, and you get 8.6% more offense with 2.7% more defense, for a total cumulative advantage of 11.5%. This isn’t too bad, considering I’ve played MMOs where the gear tier had geometric growth, with one tear doing literally double damage from the last.

The reason why it is that this is nigh negligable is because there is an RNG factor already built within the game’’s damage system. Weapon attack power is actually a 100 point range from 950 to 1050 (one handed weapons). This adds a 10.5% range of variance in the damage. Because of this, the nearly the whole advantage of full ascended a player has can be overcome by sheer chance alone.

Note: I haven’t done an average advantage level for every stat/gear combination. Also, the RNG will have a cumulative statistical effect, causing overall combat performance to have a bell curve distribution. However, I am way too sick to dig through all my notebooks to remember how to calculate all that information.

Saylu.8271:

I don’t agree with GW2 problem is with the teaching but rather the game mechanics are not intuitive. If you have never play GW2 before how would you know about combo field? People do not know what is a combo field. People do not know how each skill interact with a combo field. It is like hidden secret room you would never find it unless you accidentally stumble on it or look up a guide.

You are wrong. Most people know how to dodge, many people can’t dodge properly to avoid damage. It require knowledge of monster attack pattern, observation and quick reflexes. Invincibility frames is a crutch in action rpg. It allow people to perform risky moves with no damage or penalty. GW2 focus on Invincibility frames as its form of defense is also its bane. Any slow reaction or lag and you will take the blow to your face.

I would argue that something non-intuitive needs to be taught :p.

BTW, the issue I am emphasizing isn’t that people don’t know how to press V. The real problem is the state of mind. I’ve played games with nigh non-functioning dodge skills before, and anyone entering into GW2 will have to preconceived mental barriers in the game:

#1: Dodging isn’t necessary, since it hasn’t been for many games.
#2: Dodging is useless, since it doesn’t do much in other games.

Rather, there needs to be an active defense mindset. Someone has to come into the fight expecting their ability to block, dodge, stun, blind, and evade to be important preservation mechanics, and most of the time their primary preservation mechanic. Once a player has the proper mindset, learning specific content should come naturally.

RedStar.4218:

Then the correct sentence would be “mot people know how to press the dodge key-bind”.
(It’s playing on words, I know)

But people aren’t bothering to learn.
Yesterday I was in the harpies fractal 19, with a mesmer that seemed competent enough. Except, he wasn’t ever using feedback. Half-way through the fractal I got tired of it and said “feedback works on harpies ^^” to which he said “oh really ? I didn’t know” and then he started using feedback.

Feedback reflects projectiles. It doesn’t take a genius to guess that arrows and lighting orbs are projectiles.
Some might say “well a lot of things can’t be reflected now !” to which I’ll answer “at least try it once to find out if it can be reflected…”

I’m sure a lot of us have stories of players needing someone else to state the obvious such as :
-step out of the red aoe circles
-you see Kholer charging his attack for 3 seconds ? Dodge it
-you see Kholer spinning and doing a lot of damage to you ? Step away
-don’t stand in Frost’s ice ray. Move around him. It’s faster to move around him if you are really close to him.
-don’t stay in front of CM p3 first boss.

If you get killed over and over again, you should start thinking what’s killing you and how you can dodge that. Instead of doing the same mistake over and over and over again.

This remind me of the time I got called an internet bully for teaching people to play the game in league of legends. Apparently telling people they are bad, is not being nice. Getting better at the game isn’t on their mind and they just want to enjoy their game.

Just adding my 2c worth:

My brother came to GW2 because I played it.

He’s an intelligent person in a professional, well paying job. He has a family and still enjoys to game.

But he quit because of the reasons mentioned by the OP, he didn’t ‘get’ GW2. He could have persisted but that’s not the point. He was hardly invested in the game and after a period of time he walked away because he was sick of dying on his ele.

I agree with most of the OP. There are some additional matters overlayed over that which further detract from player engagement.

1. The game is heavily reliant on damage avoidance and yet the playing field is not level in terms of basic infrastructure to give ALL players equal footing. Lag and latency due to distance alone (yes I am in Australia and rarely have pings less than 250) spoils the play experience.
2. The very game engine itself knobbles players who chose the conditions path (stack limits) yet this is not detailed anywhere.
3. The game mechanics can render a player’s chosen approach useless (CC) through cheap boss tactics (mentioned above somewhere).

So after getting to grips with the basics and persevering with the issues raised by the OP, these hidden shortcomings in the very game infrastructure and design spoil the experience even more.

edit spelling