Guild Wars 2

There has been some great points brought up in this topic from a variety of people, and I’d like to just put my two cents in in regards to “speed-running” and zerker gear. Do I like it? Simply put, no, but I wouldn’t change a thing about it. People enjoy playing that way. They enjoy being efficient, which is what the “full zerker meta” really boils down to. I have plenty of buddies who are like minded and find new ones every day who play with all sorts of gears and builds, and we have a blast. It takes us a lot longer but so be it. That’s how it goes.

If I had any say in how things were to progress in the game design, though, I do wish there were other ways of being efficient, rather than being Incredibly efficient, or being quite leisurely, but as people have pointed out, that comes down to AI, and Boss Mechanics. In my perfect world there would be content that is efficiently cleared with the current meta, and content that that could be cleared more efficiently through some other one, whatever that may be, Others have given examples and there are a million other ways to do it the “problem” just needs to be thought about critically.

In essence, it’s not their fault that zerker is efficient, it shouldn’t matter that that’s what they enjoy, and maybe if we put our effort into harmonizing with these strange alien “zerker” beings we might see some diverse new content that gives us some other methods without trampling on others.

@Quago – that could be true if they introduce hard mode.
It would create a new meta for the hard mode dungeons and the current meta would still be around for normal dungeon runs.

@Star Ace -

A speedrunner – or myself – can’t just “decide not to care” that the #5 special snowflake in the party is wiping on every boss and does no damage/support. You can’t just wish that he’s a bad player away.
I care about my time, I care about the game being an enjoyable experience for me. Having to wait for someone who’s slow/bad or wiping because someone has no idea what to do ruins the game experience for me.

Wasting time doing content that I can clear in 10 minutes in 20 or more minutes ruins the game experience for me.

So yes – there’s a reason I try to stay away from these kinds of players – it’s not snobbery ( I do believe they have every right to play and do it in a way they find enjoyable) but their presence in my game experience ends up ruining it.

I “preach meta” to people who start whispering me asking why they got kicked. Or why I’m not taking them along on content. It’s a simple reaction to their question.
People who don’t whisper I don’t interact with at all.

And you’re right – I don’t kick on a whim. I kick before a run if people aren’t up to the requirements.
I rarely kick during a run – you have to be extremely bad for that to happen.

I do agree with you – it is a human issue – but it feels like a lot of the anti-zerker people fail to understand zerkers don’t take them with because they sometimes ruin the experience.

Just like I don’t like taking people who have The Dreamer in my runs. It breaks immersion and ruins my game.

Harper.4173:

Just like I don’t like taking people who have The Dreamer in my runs. It breaks immersion and ruins my game.

0.0

butbutbutbutbutbutbutbut

chasing unicorns during arah trash skips is FUN!!!!!!!

FUN I TELL YOU!!!!!!!

((sobsandcriesincorner))

Harper.4173:

@Quago – that could be true if they introduce hard mode.
It would create a new meta for the hard mode dungeons and the current meta would still be around for normal dungeon runs.

@Star Ace -

A speedrunner – or myself – can’t just “decide not to care” that the #5 special snowflake in the party is wiping on every boss and does no damage/support. You can’t just wish that he’s a bad player away.
I care about my time, I care about the game being an enjoyable experience for me. Having to wait for someone who’s slow/bad or wiping because someone has no idea what to do ruins the game experience for me.

Wasting time doing content that I can clear in 10 minutes in 20 or more minutes ruins the game experience for me.

So yes – there’s a reason I try to stay away from these kinds of players – it’s not snobbery ( I do believe they have every right to play and do it in a way they find enjoyable) but their presence in my game experience ends up ruining it.

I “preach meta” to people who start whispering me asking why they got kicked. Or why I’m not taking them along on content. It’s a simple reaction to their question.
People who don’t whisper I don’t interact with at all.

And you’re right – I don’t kick on a whim. I kick before a run if people aren’t up to the requirements.
I rarely kick during a run – you have to be extremely bad for that to happen.

I do agree with you – it is a human issue – but it feels like a lot of the anti-zerker people fail to understand zerkers don’t take them with because they sometimes ruin the experience.

Just like I don’t like taking people who have The Dreamer in my runs. It breaks immersion and ruins my game.

It is however annoying that you are implying that if you don’t follow the efficient meta, that the player is bad and will make your group wipe. You are putting too much blame on “the special snowflake” (I hate that term, because everybody is indeed special, and thus such insult is misplaced, but that’s for another discussion) as if the simple choice of running a non-meta build defined his/her skill. That I cannot accept as truthful in 100% of the cases, because some players play whatever they wish, even after knowing the game well. They just may have their own reasons.

Of course, your well-oiled machine plays LOTS better with like-minded players that know precisely what they are doing IN TANDEM. That’s why Berserker’s grouping works-the more, the merrier, but that doesn’t mean that the “non zerkers” are “bads” for not being as efficient as you are.

And why play with them in the first place? This I don’t understand. And just in case you didn’t know, “zerk-minded” players join “general runs” and try to dictate playstyle too (making them “playhowIwants”, ironically, as that’s the inappropriate insult thrown around in these forums to those who don’t follow the meta) so you shouldn’t make it look as if only the non-meta players join the meta guys to ruin their fun-it can happen both ways (though again, I don’t understand why players punish themselves in this manner.)

(One of the reasons I don’t use Berserker’s on ALL of my characters, just on some, is that it ruins my immersion-I don’t see all my characters as “Berserkers”. Please compare that to your Dreamer comment. It’s more than just numbers and a clock for me, much like to you The Dreamer “is out of place” on other people’s characters.)

The game’s never relied on Zerker builds. Never has. Just some people’s attitudes to non-zerker builds are a bit off in my opinion when they run the Zerk-Only parties in dungeons claiming they carry people who aren’t zerker when in my experience, it’s been the other way round.

I run a Carrion build on my Mesmer, and in one run, everyone else were Zerkers and they were like “OK, we’ll let you in this time, but don’t expect us to carry you or you’re out” and yet, it was me who was the only one that didn’t die.

Not dying doesn’t mean you carried them or that you were useful. Mesmers are an extremely precision reliant class and are taken for reflect, mob positioning and condition cleansing generally – so were you doing any of those things?

maha.7902:

Not dying doesn’t mean you carried them or that you were useful. Mesmers are an extremely precision reliant class and are taken for reflect, mob positioning and condition cleansing generally – so were you doing any of those things?

Why the need to question him/her as if she must be the culprit in your eyes? Just because she wasn’t the Berserker in the group he/she was “the bad”? To be honest, if they died so much it was on them, and it would be silly to use the lone Carrion player as the scapegoat.

Also, this talk of carrying others is stupid arrogance. Nobody carries anyone in Dungeons, regardless gear. I rather not play in ANY group where a guy/gal claims he/she is carrying the group.

Why the need to question him/her as if she must be the culprit in your eyes? Just because she wasn’t the Berserker in the group he/she was “the bad”? To be honest, if they died so much it was on them, and it would be silly to use the lone Carrion player as the scapegoat.

I’m not calling them “the bad”, I am stating what the use of a mesmer is in dungeons and asking whether they fulfilled their role. If they did, the other players have nobody to blame but themselves, but if penelopehannibal wasn’t doing any of these things, that means they were putting the whole team’s survival in jeopardy and when they say “[zerkers] claiming they carry people who aren’t zerker when in my experience, it’s been the other way round” it strongly implies that since their party ate the floor and they were the last one alive, they think they were carrying.

Also, this talk of carrying others is stupid arrogance. Nobody carries anyone in Dungeons, regardless gear. I rather not play in ANY group where a guy/gal claims he/she is carrying the group.

I never claim it or tell them, because there’s no need to (your actions will speak for themselves, and if you mess up then well they didn’t expect you to do anything special anyway) – but if I recorded every single one of my pug runs I would literally have a terrabyte of carry footage – so you’re completely incorrect saying nobody carries anyone in dungeons. Gear though – correct – it’s irrelevant. I’ve soloed Lupicus for groups in both berserker and rabid gear. If someone was full cleric, knew the fight and their party ate the floor, they could solo it too.

Star Ace.5207:

Also, this talk of carrying others is stupid arrogance. Nobody carries anyone in Dungeons, regardless gear. I rather not play in ANY group where a guy/gal claims he/she is carrying the group.

Well, I did a AC path 1 run with a pug group. I didn’t ask for anything, it was just a casual run and I was alone since the 5 other guild mate on-line at that moment were doing a fractal. At the burrow, I killed 4 of those almost alone, while the rest of the team were running like headless chicken and 3 of them died. At the boss, i was the only one left alive to kill it.

So ya you can carry a group. Don’t get me wrong, the group could have done the dungeon without me, but it would take them a bit more time, so I went ahead and carried it. Its not something that happen often. Most of the time, there is one or two weaker member in a pug that do less job than the other and sometime there is 1 player that get pretty much carried. Still, you can carry (especially if you are 2 or 3 of the same guild) a party.

But its not about gear. I play Zerker, but I used to ’’carry’’ group when i used to run knight too. Its all about the level of skill and knowledge of the encounter and less about the gear (except if you go all the way defense gear like sentinel or something and you get like no dmg).

Star Ace.5207:

Also, this talk of carrying others is stupid arrogance. Nobody carries anyone in Dungeons, regardless gear. I rather not play in ANY group where a guy/gal claims he/she is carrying the group.

Wrong, there is plenty of carrying going on in dungeons.

Star Ace.5207:

It is however annoying that you are implying that if you don’t follow the efficient meta, that the player is bad and will make your group wipe. You are putting too much blame on “the special snowflake” (I hate that term, because everybody is indeed special, and thus such insult is misplaced, but that’s for another discussion) as if the simple choice of running a non-meta build defined his/her skill. That I cannot accept as truthful in 100% of the cases, because some players play whatever they wish, even after knowing the game well. They just may have their own reasons.

Of course, your well-oiled machine plays LOTS better with like-minded players that know precisely what they are doing IN TANDEM. That’s why Berserker’s grouping works-the more, the merrier, but that doesn’t mean that the “non zerkers” are “bads” for not being as efficient as you are.

And why play with them in the first place? This I don’t understand. And just in case you didn’t know, “zerk-minded” players join “general runs” and try to dictate playstyle too (making them “playhowIwants”, ironically, as that’s the inappropriate insult thrown around in these forums to those who don’t follow the meta) so you shouldn’t make it look as if only the non-meta players join the meta guys to ruin their fun-it can happen both ways (though again, I don’t understand why players punish themselves in this manner.)

(One of the reasons I don’t use Berserker’s on ALL of my characters, just on some, is that it ruins my immersion-I don’t see all my characters as “Berserkers”. Please compare that to your Dreamer comment. It’s more than just numbers and a clock for me, much like to you The Dreamer “is out of place” on other people’s characters.)

It’s not about him being bad – it’s about me not wanting to play with someone that’s not efficient at the game.
If he’s not part of the meta chances are he’s one of those " I like to take one hour/dungeon" players – since if he wanted to clear it in 10 minutes he’d be in zerker.

I don’t want him in my group because he’ll probably start complaining the moment we start stacking, skipping or generally doing something that doesn’t agree with the way he sees and plays the game.

In a sense the fact that he doesn’t play zerker is an indication that he and I play the game in entirely different ways and for entirely different reasons. So why not spare each other the difficulty and just go our own ways.

I like to play with like minded individuals.

And I don’t play with them, it’s just that more often than not it’s them joining my party than me joining theirs.

Star Ace.5207:

maha.7902:

Not dying doesn’t mean you carried them or that you were useful. Mesmers are an extremely precision reliant class and are taken for reflect, mob positioning and condition cleansing generally – so were you doing any of those things?

Why the need to question him/her as if she must be the culprit in your eyes? Just because she wasn’t the Berserker in the group he/she was “the bad”? To be honest, if they died so much it was on them, and it would be silly to use the lone Carrion player as the scapegoat.

Also, this talk of carrying others is stupid arrogance. Nobody carries anyone in Dungeons, regardless gear. I rather not play in ANY group where a guy/gal claims he/she is carrying the group.

I’ve had players be unable to make it to the final boss in AC p1 ( This was a while ago though) and had to duo the boss with a friend while the 3 puggies struggled to even make it there. I’d call that carrying.

I’ve had a person in my fractal runs get downed on every mob encounter and we saw it through to the end because we kinda knew him. I’d call that carrying.

It’s part of the game.

As a person who is frequently carried… yes there is carrying in the game. Any time I tag along with my friends’ duo Arah’s or AC’s, I contribute almost nothing to their boss fights. They carry me through because they love me (or something).

Lilith Ajit.6173:

…because they love me (or something)…

Lol. This is so cute.

Xenon.4537:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

…because they love me (or something)…

Lol. This is so cute.

Must be my voice or something.

Ask Colesy or Dub. shrug

Oh and if you really want cute check this out:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Xenon.4537:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

…because they love me (or something)…

Lol. This is so cute.

Must be my voice or something.

Ask Colesy or Dub. shrug

Oh and if you really want cute check this out:

So are you a female gamer? And is that your character? If so, I can see exactly why they carry you through dungeons. It’s that female cutesy persona. You bat those eyelashes and they come runnin. :P

Xenon.4537:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Xenon.4537:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

…because they love me (or something)…

Lol. This is so cute.

Must be my voice or something.

Ask Colesy or Dub. shrug

Oh and if you really want cute check this out:

So are you a female gamer? And is that your character? If so, I can see exactly why they carry you through dungeons. It’s that female cutesy persona. You bat those eyelashes and they come runnin. :P

Seems like a valid and logical hypothesis. But you should ask them. I’m also awesome. I give shinies too. ^^

It’s possible for skilled players to carry less-skilled ones (If you can solo a dungeon, there’s a good chance of you carrying the party, and almost guaranteed to be carrying at least one person in a PUG, or “Who’s On And Bored?” guild or friend run).

However, a zerker group requires coordination to work. If you have someone in the party not putting out the damage they need to at the rate they need to, it can cause a wipe on everyone, leaving the Last Man Standing (Who wasn’t pulling his weight) thinking he’s the one carrying the group when he’s in fact the cause of the wipe. Yes, it’s possible to beat dungeons with more self-sufficient and independent groups – but they’re slower. (Zerkers in a non-zerk party that doesn’t play together well should probably use Valk, Cavalier, or PVT trinkets)

The thing is that I myself don’t enjoy being carried-I find it condescending to others to play the role of hero carrier, as if other players couldn’t fend for themselves. At least if you are “carrying” people because they are inexperienced, don’t mention it on the run, and keep it to yourself.

I do remember a player a long time ago claiming that he was “carrying” our group, and it annoyed me to no end. I don’t want to group up with people who doubt my ability to carry my own weight, especially without knowing me, based on their own prejudices.

That said, I would happily “carry” new players out of kindness, but wouldn’t be condescending to them or let them know that I am carrying them, much less make them feel they “owe” me anything for “carrying” them.

In short, I just feel it’s downright insulting to tell someone they need to be carried. It’s about teamplay, not solo hero play, and everybody is entitled to be new. I like doing well and cooperating with my team, and refuse to be “carried” by anyone-that’s want I actually meant by saying “there’s no carrying”, and that people that tend to say “I carried that group” sound rather arrogant to me, whether intended or otherwise.

No offense intended; carry on, I guess.