Guild Wars 2

Talon Silverhawk.3574:

“Downed State” frightening , really, ppl need to get a grip if this is scary.

The thing is no one ever used the word frightening except in the OP. Anet was saying that people didn’t “get it” which was true. Baffling might have been a better word. Hard to understand even better. I don’t think anyone was frightened of it.

Vayne.8563:

Talon Silverhawk.3574:

“Downed State” frightening , really, ppl need to get a grip if this is scary.

The thing is no one ever used the word frightening except in the OP. Anet was saying that people didn’t “get it” which was true. Baffling might have been a better word. Hard to understand even better. I don’t think anyone was frightened of it.

Actual quote says that they simply didn’t understand and that a tutorial didn’t work as well as delaying it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2etzxq/a_fresh_start_the_new_player_experience_in_guild/
Yeah we thought so too. After tens of thousands of usability testers and interviews with players who tried Gw2 and left leading up to China launch both in NA/EU and in China – we learned we were wrong.
Honestly, we were kind of shocked how many systems, downed included a surprising number of players just didn’t understand. For downed, we tried a downed tutorial, building downed into the level 1 tutorial, etc. We found after usability testing with numerous different groups, the best rate of people learning and understanding it came from having it be layered complexity and the solution we went with above. Intuitively that wouldn’t have been my guess either initially, but we found people understood it better this way than all other options we tried.
This same level of testing led to the other changes as well. At the end of the day the biggest take away I’d say is: all of us, especially people who go to a reddit to discuss a game, probably know games (and Gw2) really really well. We have millions of users, and a tiny % of them frequent game forums or reddit. Just because all of us, me included, learned those systems well and thought it was all really easy doesn’t mean we are the norm

Because you know, no one can learn the simple way we all did, and instead of putting a tool tip in the game that explains what to do to clear out this “confusion” we just decided to remove it until your a certain level…..because again its apparently “confusing and overwhelming”.
Honestly if you didn’t put two and two together when you first went into your downed state then I don’t know what to say.
Yet another pointless update in this fail of a feature patch.

Astral Projections.7320:

Actual quote says that they simply didn’t understand and that a tutorial didn’t work as well as delaying it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2etzxq/a_fresh_start_the_new_player_experience_in_guild/
Yeah we thought so too. After tens of thousands of usability testers and interviews with players who tried Gw2 and left leading up to China launch both in NA/EU and in China – we learned we were wrong.
Honestly, we were kind of shocked how many systems, downed included a surprising number of players just didn’t understand. For downed, we tried a downed tutorial, building downed into the level 1 tutorial, etc. We found after usability testing with numerous different groups, the best rate of people learning and understanding it came from having it be layered complexity and the solution we went with above. Intuitively that wouldn’t have been my guess either initially, but we found people understood it better this way than all other options we tried.
This same level of testing led to the other changes as well. At the end of the day the biggest take away I’d say is: all of us, especially people who go to a reddit to discuss a game, probably know games (and Gw2) really really well. We have millions of users, and a tiny % of them frequent game forums or reddit. Just because all of us, me included, learned those systems well and thought it was all really easy doesn’t mean we are the norm

I’m skeptical about that focus group. I would like to know the demographics of these testers. What countries are they from? How old are they ? What is their education level? How often do they play games? What kinds of games do they normally play? I know I’m never going to find out that information, but these tests results make me wonder about the testers themselves.

There are popular games that have more complicated gameplay, and the average player didn’t give up on those games. WoW has complicated mechanics, and there are many different kinds of players (from casual to hardcore) that enjoy it. ArcheAge, Final Fantasy 14, and MapleStory also have mechanics that requires that players take time to learn them. Even uber-casual games like Angry Birds and Super Mario Galaxy have a learning curve. Instead of dumbing down the game, the devs for those programs just created tutorials. And guess what? People still play them.

GW2 needs depth. It doesn’t need to be dumbed down. Here’s a video that talks about what I mean in more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFzFsHc75U

(NOTE; This video starts talking about video game tutorials at 3:23)

BTW… A game is not a game if it doesn’t have a learning curve. Learning and mastering stuff is what make a game fun.

EDIT: Oops! I forgot about this video that talks about making really good video game tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCPcn-Q5nKE

ANET should make a gem purchase tutorial too. Since players that are confused about the downed state will have problems using functions like gem store too.

I guess y’all missed the part about where ANet said, “hey, we were surprised by this too, but our playtesting focus groups far preferred it when we postponed using the downed system until a few levels in.”

I prefer figuring out stuff on my own and reading up later to find out what I missed, so I didn’t like the sound of the too-friendly to newbie system either.

But then I remembered I’m not most people. (Interestingly, most people aren’t most people either.) And I take ANet seriously when they say they tried different things and decided to release the system that seemed to work best at attracting and keeping new players. And if they’re right, as I expect they are, that’s good for the community and therefore good for the game.

kta.6502:

I’m skeptical about that focus group. I would like to know the demographics of these testers. What countries are they from? How old are they ? What is their education level? How often do they play games? What kinds of games do they normally play? I know I’m never going to find out that information, but these tests results make me wonder about the testers themselves.

While I do agree with the need to always reserve some skepticism . . . if you’re going to call into question the focus group? You might as well just discard it entirely, because the next step is questioning whether the information you were given is correct . . . or if the refusal to give that information means there’s something to hide.

I think the most important detail of the focus group is how they are likely people who did not play GW2 or apparently have it on their list. Therefore they are not us and probably aren’t primed to pick it up.

If you want to know what I think when I hear “we gave it to a focus group”, I think “so did you hand it to the Achievement Hunter crew, because that’s your group of gamers who can give you some interesting feedback”. And hilarious videos too.

There are popular games that have more complicated gameplay, and the average player didn’t give up on those games.

Final Fantasy 14: A Realm Reborn spends a lot of time spoon-feeding the stuff to players. I should know, I’ve spent a free month checking it out. And I’ve seen people mess up Angry Birds who otherwise seem to be quick at grasping other not-so-casual games.

On the other hand, Minecraft? Doesn’t hold your hand, and you are expected to learn through experience or go find spoilers in the form of the wiki. I dare you to have a new player who knows nothing about the game try to last one night and not get frustrated. And that’s before we get to Redstone, for which there could be actual classes on how it behaves (which is both like and unlike an electric circuit).

And yes, despite this Minecraft is easily in the top ten most popular games of those currently available. But part of that probably gets owed to having a “Creative” mode which takes away all the confusing game mechanics of a game and makes it just a toolbox.

Oh, and while I enjoy listening to Extra Credits – there are other people who can get cited who are worth reading. Brian “Psychochild” Green has a blog which could be updated more often, but is worth reading. I recommend Shamus Young (of Twenty Sided) in general, though he’s not strictly a developer and only a fan who really learned to deconstruct and critique when things don’t work or do work.

Bobby.3721:

Because you know, no one can learn the simple way we all did, and instead of putting a tool tip in the game that explains what to do to clear out this “confusion” we just decided to remove it until your a certain level…..because again its apparently “confusing and overwhelming”.
Honestly if you didn’t put two and two together when you first went into your downed state then I don’t know what to say.
Yet another pointless update in this fail of a feature patch.

First of all, this was one component of a major structural redo, given as an example that was extensively tested. You may think it’s pointless and indeed it may be pointless to you. What isn’t pointless to me is that more people who start stay with the game. That helps me. Therefore it’s not entirely pointless.

Anet went through the effort to test this stuff. How can you think you know better than the testing?

I found the down state confusing.

I used to cycle through all my skills.
(tbf, I did this with all my skills, rather than figuring out, that eaxh skill have better/worse times to use them etc. )

I never played a game with anything like this mmo. And I didn’t figure out/understand the differences in skills until much later.

I find it degrading that the OP has used the word “frightening”. I was never scared, but I was very very confused, about what had just happened. I didn’t think the heal skill would keep healing, thought I had to press it once than cycle through again.

You might look at me an think “what an idiot”, but something is easy once you know.

I don’t game alot. Or I didn’t before GW2.
#shrugs#

I find it confusing and tricky to understand. And the only reason I did understand was reading through forums. And getting an “ah hah” moment.

I don’t think this “dumbing down” as people have put will affect vet players so much, leveling might feel a bit slower. But it’ll certainly help new players. And that’s a good thing.

Vayne.8563:

Bobby.3721:

Because you know, no one can learn the simple way we all did, and instead of putting a tool tip in the game that explains what to do to clear out this “confusion” we just decided to remove it until your a certain level…..because again its apparently “confusing and overwhelming”.
Honestly if you didn’t put two and two together when you first went into your downed state then I don’t know what to say.
Yet another pointless update in this fail of a feature patch.

First of all, this was one component of a major structural redo, given as an example that was extensively tested. You may think it’s pointless and indeed it may be pointless to you. What isn’t pointless to me is that more people who start stay with the game. That helps me. Therefore it’s not entirely pointless.

Anet went through the effort to test this stuff. How can you think you know better than the testing?

I think Bob was just being sarcastic.

About your question: This game has done a very good job to attract alot more than just teens. I’ve met and talked to alot of college educated adults during my first year in this game. With knowledge and experience, alot of us are able to see through what Anet is doing. The one gift that a college education can give you is the ability to think for yourself and question what others do esp. when their actions are suspicious.

Myself and others aren’t questioning to be mean. We think that Anet made a bad decision that will hurt their game and destroy their innovative product.

kta.6502:

Vayne.8563:

Bobby.3721:

Because you know, no one can learn the simple way we all did, and instead of putting a tool tip in the game that explains what to do to clear out this “confusion” we just decided to remove it until your a certain level…..because again its apparently “confusing and overwhelming”.
Honestly if you didn’t put two and two together when you first went into your downed state then I don’t know what to say.
Yet another pointless update in this fail of a feature patch.

First of all, this was one component of a major structural redo, given as an example that was extensively tested. You may think it’s pointless and indeed it may be pointless to you. What isn’t pointless to me is that more people who start stay with the game. That helps me. Therefore it’s not entirely pointless.

Anet went through the effort to test this stuff. How can you think you know better than the testing?

I think Bob was just being sarcastic.

About your question: This game has done a very good job to attract alot more than just teens. I’ve met and talked to alot of college educated adults during my first year in this game. With knowledge and experience, alot of us are able to see through what Anet is doing. The one gift that a college education can give you is the ability to think for yourself and question what others do esp. when their actions are suspicious.

Myself and others aren’t questioning to be mean. We’re questioning Anet’s decision because we think it’s a bad decision that will hurt their game and destroy their innovative product.

You’re right. Anet has a attracted a lot of people to this game, including many who are in their 40s and 50s, and may not have your vast experience with MMOs.

I’m 52. My wife plays. We have 60 year olds in our guild.

It’s all very nice to be college educated, but it doesn’t give you special insight into the needs of all players. I don’t think any one group has a monopoly on being observant or on knowledge and experience.

So what exactly is Anet doing besides making it easier for everyone to get into their game?

Vayne.8563:

So what exactly is Anet doing besides making it easier for everyone to get into their game?

Delaying the Downed State to level 5 doesn’t solve the problem. If there are confused players, there should be an interactive tutorial that teaches people about the game mechanic. Once the tutorial is created, it should be put back in front of the focus group for testing.

When people enter PvP for the first time, they’re sent to a starting area where they learn game mechanics like using a finisher and claiming territory. I don’t see why the devs couldn’t add a similar tutorial for PvE.

When i first played betas… i got into downed state, and it scared the kitten out of me.
Before that I didn’t know i had a cat inside me.

sMihaly.1492:

When i first played betas… i got into downed state, and it scared the kitten out of me.
Before that I didn’t know i had a cat inside me.

When I first got downed, I was:

“FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE!!!”
Get-a-kill-to-Rally
“SECOND WIND!!!”

Well, mostly because of Borderlands…

kta.6502:

Vayne.8563:

So what exactly is Anet doing besides making it easier for everyone to get into their game?

Delaying the Downed State to level 5 doesn’t solve the problem. If there are confused players, there should be an interactive tutorial that teaches people about the game mechanic. Once the tutorial is created, it should be put back in front of the focus group for testing.

When people enter PvP for the first time, they’re sent to a starting area where they learn game mechanics like using a finisher and claiming territory. I don’t see why the devs couldn’t add a similar tutorial for PvE.

Anet tested it and said that got the best results. So it obviously solves the problem for someone.

Vayne.8563:

kta.6502:

Vayne.8563:

So what exactly is Anet doing besides making it easier for everyone to get into their game?

Delaying the Downed State to level 5 doesn’t solve the problem. If there are confused players, there should be an interactive tutorial that teaches people about the game mechanic. Once the tutorial is created, it should be put back in front of the focus group for testing.

When people enter PvP for the first time, they’re sent to a starting area where they learn game mechanics like using a finisher and claiming territory. I don’t see why the devs couldn’t add a similar tutorial for PvE.

Anet tested it and said that got the best results. So it obviously solves the problem for someone.

I’m starting to really feel depressed about the QA team mental capabilities …

Dalanor.5387:

Vayne.8563:

kta.6502:

Vayne.8563:

So what exactly is Anet doing besides making it easier for everyone to get into their game?

Delaying the Downed State to level 5 doesn’t solve the problem. If there are confused players, there should be an interactive tutorial that teaches people about the game mechanic. Once the tutorial is created, it should be put back in front of the focus group for testing.

When people enter PvP for the first time, they’re sent to a starting area where they learn game mechanics like using a finisher and claiming territory. I don’t see why the devs couldn’t add a similar tutorial for PvE.

Anet tested it and said that got the best results. So it obviously solves the problem for someone.

I’m starting to really feel depressed about the QA team mental capabilities …

It’s not the QA team that tested it. The QA team thought it was fine as it was. They tested in on thousands of people who’d never played. Just read Colin’s comment.

Vayne.8563:

kta.6502:

Vayne.8563:

So what exactly is Anet doing besides making it easier for everyone to get into their game?

Delaying the Downed State to level 5 doesn’t solve the problem. If there are confused players, there should be an interactive tutorial that teaches people about the game mechanic. Once the tutorial is created, it should be put back in front of the focus group for testing.

When people enter PvP for the first time, they’re sent to a starting area where they learn game mechanics like using a finisher and claiming territory. I don’t see why the devs couldn’t add a similar tutorial for PvE.

Anet tested it and said that got the best results. So it obviously solves the problem for someone.

Now, now! Let’s not jump to conclusions. Just because someone at anet says something doesn’t mean we should construe it as a promise. Things change! Let’s all just settle down and wait for the clarification.

Just add the downed state actions/skill in the weapon skill panel of the character.
PROBLEM SOLVED

kta.6502:

There are popular games that have more complicated gameplay, and the average player didn’t give up on those games. WoW has complicated mechanics, and there are many different kinds of players (from casual to hardcore) that enjoy it. ArcheAge, Final Fantasy 14, and MapleStory also have mechanics that requires that players take time to learn them. Even uber-casual games like Angry Birds and Super Mario Galaxy have a learning curve. Instead of dumbing down the game, the devs for those programs just created tutorials. And guess what? People still play them.

WoW has actually been dumbed down considerably since the vanilla days, just for the record… because apparently people WEREN’T playing because it was too confusing.

Talent trees have been pared down to the point where the game practically chooses FOR you. Items are now normalized so that you know EXACTLY what best in slot is without having to actually, ya know, LOOK at what you’re equipping.

So yeah, WoW isn’t a very good example for your cause. Just sayin’.

chemiclord.3978:

kta.6502:

There are popular games that have more complicated gameplay, and the average player didn’t give up on those games. WoW has complicated mechanics, and there are many different kinds of players (from casual to hardcore) that enjoy it. ArcheAge, Final Fantasy 14, and MapleStory also have mechanics that requires that players take time to learn them. Even uber-casual games like Angry Birds and Super Mario Galaxy have a learning curve. Instead of dumbing down the game, the devs for those programs just created tutorials. And guess what? People still play them.

WoW has actually been dumbed down considerably since the vanilla days, just for the record… because apparently people WEREN’T playing because it was too confusing.

Talent trees have been pared down to the point where the game practically chooses FOR you. Items are now normalized so that you know EXACTLY what best in slot is without having to actually, ya know, LOOK at what you’re equipping.

So yeah, WoW isn’t a very good example for your cause. Just sayin’.

It’s not even just games. I bought a pair of socks recently that came with instructions. I kid you not.

I guess it really boils down to the sage advice I got from my grandfather many, many moons ago:

If you ever find yourself in a spot where you ask yourself, “Are people really that stupid?” just remember this answer.

“Yes. Yes, they are.”

Gibson.4036:

That means you won’t have weapon skill 2 until level 2, weapon skill 3 until level 4, weapon skill 4 unlocks at level 7, and no 5th weapon skill until level 10!

The first utility skill is delayed until level 13, and the elite is delayed until 40. I can find a some disagreement on when the second and third utility are unlocked, but it looks like they are significantly later. I couldn’t find much concrete information on profession skills, but found at least one hint that attunements for Eles are also significantly delayed.

No weapon swap until level 15! :P

I’m not sure why ArenaNet thinks their systems are so complicated. Ten levels (yes, pretty fast levels, but still) before you have a full weapon bar? Fifteen before you can handle having two weapons? Yikes.

Good gravy, I hope the delay isn’t that long. Those first 15 levels are already a drag, hobbling along with limited useful abilities. Add to that even longer delay on utilities…

Between some of the April changes and this, rolling alts is becoming a bit of a drag.