Guild Wars 2

If it was intended, it was the biggest mistake Anet will have ever made. Forcing players into Berserker gear takes away their agency, and therefore gives them no sense of actual choice in the game. That’s why I don’t play NEARLY as much as I did 5 months ago for just this reason. I feel like I’m forced into a playstyle that I don’t want and don’t like. I still cling to the hope that Anet will make other playstyles viable, but if it was intended, then I will never pick this game up again. Forcing players into a certain playstyle is not what a good mmorpg does, and that’s why a lot of long-time mmorpg players are so against forcing players into playstyles. I asked the people in my guild how many of them were long-time mmo players, and two freaking people out of like 52 players said they played an mmorpg before Guild Wars 2. From my experience, most long-time mmorpg’ers have left this game already, and all that’s left are the non-mmorpg types. As a long-time mmorpg player myself, I shunned the idea that I would be forced to play berserker and that’s why I do not play much at all anymore.

Well the collaborative development initiative is going to get to PvE eventually, if enough people want Anet’s opinion on this they should answer. It’s been a huge topic of discussion for quite some time now.

ThiBash.5634:

Why? Why not just optimize yourself? Many feel pigeonholed into a singular build, but… I look at it like this: there will always be the most powerful. Nerf the highest, and the second highest takes it’s place. When hierarchies exist this is simply undebatable. These power hierarchies may pigeonhole you into power-based builds but it’s almost a contradictory philosophy.

Well feeling pigeonholed isnt fun at all lol and in the end its a game meant to have fun.

ThiBash.5634:

The issue isn’t that berserker is best, the issue is that it is best by such a large margin that it effectively negates the use of any other gear. Even if power is the way to go, there should be at least a use for alternatives. There should be some advantage or reason to take condtions/control/defense. Currently there is none.

Agreed. Your spot on on what the problem is.

ThiBash.5634:

Take Magic: The Gathering for example. There’s no ‘best’ option, and even the strongest deck has its weaknesses. There is no ‘one answer to everything’ and that should be the same for Guild Wars 2. However, power trumps all other stats by about 2:1 (in case of dps, it is literally twice as good as precision or condition damage). If the difference were to be reduced, people wouldn’t feel so hurt by not taking the most damaging stat. The gaps between ultimate tank and ultimate attacker shouldn’t be so large.

I am sure you recognize my name from a MTG card in the invasion block. Back then there were heavy imbalances that caused cards to be banned. ex Lin Sivvi. I remember when Arcbound Ravager/Affinity was feared until tooth and nail gave it a run for the decks money, but even then that whole block was about those two decks. It took a long time to iron out the balance that game has because of how intricate the game is, I believe the same principle applies to GW2 and it will be a long time until we see build other than zerker close that wide margin some.

If it had any chance of success the idea of nerf zerker should have been from the start. Now players are use to it, they are use to the rewards it brings and use to the high numbers, doing so now would feel awful and they would have to increase rewards again by quite a bit to compensate.

a t s e.9614:

Well I don’t know why you bring pvp in the PvE discussion . You can’t deny the fact that defensive gear = lack of skill in PvE . And by the way even in PvP the damage reduction is bad after 2800 armor , there’s no point in getting 4k armor .

Yes I can deny it-that’s your opinion, and nothing else (to be fair, you’ve been told it’s a fact many time by many other players, so you probably believed without evidence that “non-zerk players are baddies,” which is pretty offensive). Math/spreadsheets has nothing to do with people’s playstyles, and some people are wonderful with specific builds and gears that aren’t fully Berserker’s. If you didn’t know, now you do (I won’t show you spreadsheets or youtube videos as “evidence”, so please don’t resort to that as a “counter-argument”.)

As far as the OP’s thread is concerned, Berserker’s is indeed intended, but so are each and every combo stat made available in the game for any and all formats of play a player wishes to experiment with.

You can run Berserker’s on Dungeons, and another player Rabid’s, it doesn’t matter. Both are “intended”, because both are in the game.

Berserker’s, even the word itself, implies high risk, high reward, which for the most part it is. But I can’t imagine that 100% players must be considered “Berserkers” role-playing-wise. Not all players should get and enjoy playing in such gear just because there’s an strongly opinionated group of players that does.

That said, respect your fellow player, and if they think “zerk” is the best ever for PvE, and that ANet intended this to be the case (which they have never officially stated)and you don’t agree, don’t get in groups where the LFG notes say that they want all Berserker’s players. Win-win for both types of players, and then this thread with all of its inevitable, needless “zerk vs non-zerk” arguments are avoided.

I boil it all down to ego-people love to be “right” and tell others that what they are doing is wrong. :P Some have fun bullying others and putting them down for not being “as good” as they are. Humans…

(Note that I am not against Berserker’s gear users myself, but more against build/gear dictatorship and not allowing others freedom of choice for better or worse-I would use Berserker’s gear on the right character and build.)

Galtrix.7369:

If it was intended, it was the biggest mistake Anet will have ever made. Forcing players into Berserker gear takes away their agency, and therefore gives them no sense of actual choice in the game. That’s why I don’t play NEARLY as much as I did 5 months ago for just this reason. I feel like I’m forced into a playstyle that I don’t want and don’t like. I still cling to the hope that Anet will make other playstyles viable, but if it was intended, then I will never pick this game up again. Forcing players into a certain playstyle is not what a good mmorpg does, and that’s why a lot of long-time mmorpg players are so against forcing players into playstyles. I asked the people in my guild how many of them were long-time mmo players, and two freaking people out of like 52 players said they played an mmorpg before Guild Wars 2. From my experience, most long-time mmorpg’ers have left this game already, and all that’s left are the non-mmorpg types. As a long-time mmorpg player myself, I shunned the idea that I would be forced to play berserker and that’s why I do not play much at all anymore.

To be fair, you are letting a group of people hijack your enjoyment of this game. You can indeed play with whatever gear and build you wish. Don’t play with them-even players in your guild-if they question your gear choices and you still do well and have fun with them. Even if these elitists were the majority (honestly, we don’t have the evidence they are just because you see many LFG with “zerk” on their notes), there’s no reason we should play with the gear said theoretical majority wishes YOU to play with. And no, ANet has never claimed that PvE was ever intended to be played by 100% players on Berserker’s gear, and no player that claims such thing has evidence to the contrary besides the meta/popular opinion.

In short, if you ignore this supposed “you must play the way the masses play” thing, you can still enjoy GW2, though it is not really that much like your other games in the past (talking mostly about the so-called trinity-there are “roles”, but certainly no required roles.)

(Though ANet should take notice of your current feelings, and not nerf Berserker’s but rather improve the many other aspects of the game that are not DPS. However, if a player is convinced that GW2 is only “DPS role”, which I don’t believe is the case, there is hardly any CC/Healing/Support improvements that will convince him/her otherwise, so you are better off playing the way you get more enjoyment out of the game anyway.)

A solution would be to change stat distribution all together. Have lv 66+ gear get an extra stat. The stat brackets should made to 1 (1-25), 2 (26-50), 3 (51-65), and 4 (66-80) different stats. A few ascended gear has 4 stat types on them already.

Berzerker would be now Barbaric:

Power, Precision, Critical Damage, Vitality.

And lv 51-65 will be the old zerker.

And maybe by extension, add a new defensive stat or some new beneficial counter balance stat (maybe smaller then the other 3) to every current stats type with a new name for 66-80 gear.

Sure , if they change zerker stats , I want my money\ectos\laurels\badges back. And also my dungeon tokens , they wont nerf zerker gear because of people that are not skilled enough to play with it . That would be literally getting punished for having skill .

I want to believe, but I it’s obvious that condition builds are designed to be a primary form of damage dealing, and I won’t accept an argument stating conditions are designed for PVP. I played Necro for most of my time, and now I’ve switched to zerk thief just because I have to to keep up.

I’ll agree that berserker gear can be seen as a pinnacle stat distribution at the top of things like soldier and Valkyrie, but there are so many stat combos that it’s hard to believe they’re all stepping stones to berserker. Especially when they are all relatively parallel in terms of benefits. You must admit you used rather convenient examples in your original post.

The real problem, as I am glad you pointed out, is the fact that PvE content is not designed in a way that promotes their “play how you want” paradigm. It can also be argued that perhaps it is too promoted, to the point where the difference between what you bring to a dungeon is shown in time spent, not game play necessarily.

I think we can all agree that build diversity will not begin until the content itself is redesigned, and we have a reason to use other stats, rather than these round a bout, seemingly random balance changes that are done in the name of PVP in the first place.

Well I’m not saying change it for the worse. Leave the stats for the first three distributions untouched. But add a defensive stat to it like vitality. As critical damage has no benefits beyond critical damage. Its like MF gear (but more useful) but high risk. You’re sacrificing a stat right now as it is and unskilled players can’t play without dying all the time because people want all zerker or gtfo.

This extra stat will help more casuals and less experienced players with zerker play and the experienced dodges and kiters in zerker can just play as normal with the extra defense stats being useless to them with no change to the old distribution.

Lets say you had a Chest armor exotic lv 80, Its stats are zerker:

old zerker:

101
72
5%

New one: you get an extra minor stat at 66+ these will be the lv 80 stats.
101 Power
72 Precision
5% Crit Damage
72 Vit

If anet likes the idea, then you get what you want and they get what they need. better for everyone and no need to refund anything as you say.

Also, people tend to make the mistake of thinking that players that ask for others in berserker gear do so to be in some exclusive, berserker club. The fact is, it’s just the most efficient stat distribution for players that can handle it. Other hear types literally make the run slower and more dangerous because of how little heals mean in the face of one shot, hp sponge mechanics. If a player is built around healing in PvE, they are not doing so by spamming heals. They are doing so by attacking a target and using DPS skills that have a heal built in. This should tell you how active everyone should be in a fight. You just have to make the choice of longer fights.

If a cleric guardian is slowing down the team by doing no damage, of course he will think his heals matter because of how log everyone has been able to fight, when in reality, you can use the same skills in an offensive build and be out of the dungeon in less time than a boss or two would take to kill in the first place

Adding vitality to zerker stats will make zerker even more overpowered. There is no reason to help casual play zerker by adding defensive stats; they just have to get better.

As it is, for low skilled players: berserker is high risk/high reward
For high skilled players: berserker is low risk/high reward.

Just have to get better.

Adding vit or tough to zerker will make it usable by new players being kicked to the curb by the elitists. Right now, no one does dungeons as it is all zerg/warrior only and not everyone wants to go through that. I’m planning to actually do things the old fashioned way for them, an alternative. It may take 1-4 hours (fighting each mob and not skipping and using intelligent play and actually using the game’s mechanics+ CC where it matters, etc.), but at least they learn rather than, “Wear zerker and get thrown to the wolves!”

If you are so skilled, you don’t need the vit and it will be ignored anyways as you dodge and kite everything skillfully. As it stands currently, we need a short term solution to feel included into the zerker scene and vit or tough as a 3rd minor stat will help with that despite what anyone here says.

Ok so.
1. You hate elitists but you want to join their speed clear parties
2. You want toughness and vitality added to zerker gear because you want high rewrd and low risk
3. You want to kill everything

You are making it look like that EVERY dungeons runs is zerkers only. It is not. If new players cannot handle zerkers, then don’t wear it until they’re comfortable enough. Adding vitality will lessen the risk (more apparent in inexperience players) in zerkers.

I honestly don’t think new players need more handicap at this point. Zerker is the meta but nothing prevents anyone from not playing like one, that includes finding a group and finishing a run.

a t s e.9614:

Ok so.
1. You hate elitists but you want to join their speed clear parties
2. You want toughness and vitality added to zerker gear because you want high rewrd and low risk
3. You want to kill everything

1. I do but, at the same time, I had to join them out of necessity. I was just more shrewd than them (knew what to say and not to say) and actually know what I’m doing. I’ve been in non-elitist speed clears before. Speed Clearers and elitists are not synonymous. Same went for GW 1 and PVX builds and those that speed cleared and accepted anyone with half a brain. Speed Clear just removes all challenge and promotes mindless one-sided play like zerging. The hardest thing is wvw orr and s/pvp now. I wish I had a better rig for both pvp modes .I run pvt armor + zerker tinkets actually.

2. I do just fine in any gear as I know pretty average how to use ele, the hardest class in both games hands down.

3. Who doesn’t? I don’t leave a single foe alone even in queens dale or any map. Its why I have average 16-30 g on me at all times. Things add up.

Instead of complaining about elitists why you don’t become one ?
You already have zerker trinckets , now flush that PVT set and get berserker .
Next step is get rid of the I play how I want attitude , it’s useless and prevents you and your party from making more gold because of slow kills.
Now try to make your own lfg post and say exp only \ ping zerk gear . You will see how fast you can clear some content .

a t s e.9614:

Instead of complaining about elitists why you don’t become one ?
You already have zerker trinckets , now flush that PVT set and get berserker .
Next step is get rid of the I play how I want attitude , it’s useless and prevents you and your party from making more gold because of slow kills.
Now try to make your own lfg post and say exp only \ ping zerk gear . You will see how fast you can clear some content .

Because elitists are the worst people in any MMO community and chase off more legit players than any other group. Saying you’re “elitist” isn’t a compliment – it’s saying you have a crappy attitude.

The heck I’m going to go zerker. I don’t like how it plays and due to disabilities, I cannot pinpoint dodge. I think PvE leans heavily towards encouraging zerker and I think zerker is great… for those who can properly play using it. That’s not me, I will faceplant in zerker gear. I will be eating dirt.

I don’t want to clear content fast either, I want to enjoy content. I absolutely do not understand the rush to clear content – it’s like eating without chewing or bothering to taste the food. Cheers to those who love speed runs but I want to take time to enjoy what I’m doing.

I have everything cleared but Arah. And I have a zerker set. I used it to burn down bloody prince in under 20 seconds with 4 others.

Also, I play for others not myself. Playing for myself will certainly get stuff done, but it won’t win any hearts and minds in an already perceived terrible community. I make more money flipping and selling on TP everyday than anything (made 70 g in one day once). I play for fun and doing what you suggest is not fun to me as its not challenging. Maybe its why I put up with that play style for a bit as I actually enjoy working on hard stuff like a legendary (or two). Means to an end to change my play style on a whim. As I know I can be an elitist and stomach it. I been one in other mmos.

I won’t have a good guild atmosphere if I even act that way though.

Aerlen is right. They are the worst people in any MMO community. I was known as the self proclaimed PSO Veteran on Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst for a reason. I wasn’t very nice to new players… I’d throw old gear at them and leave the area, talk bad about them behind their backs, voice my disdain when they do something wrong or have to res constantly (I played a magic class), yet I’d make helpful guides and expect everyone to play that way on those guides. I wasn’t neither nice nor helpful, and I felt bad after a while.

Aerlen, if you want to do stuff at a proper and more engaging pace find me… I’ll be glad to map or enjoy content over if it helps you.

Zerkers are not necessarily Elitist.

Ok , I need to stop using those forums , because I don’t understand 90% of the people that use them and it will cause conflict . If enjoying content for some people is clearing a dungeon in 2 hours instead of 10min then yes . I truly need to stop reading those forums . Considering clearing a dungeon faster will give you the end reward faster , it does really makes no sense to stay in those dungeons for 2 hours , omg i need to stop reading it now .

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Speed Clear just removes all challenge and promotes mindless one-sided play like zerging. The hardest thing is wvw orr and s/pvp now.

Could you please elaborate? Because doing proper speedclear like those require more input than zerging in wvw. Otherwise, we’d have more competition.

And why did you put word ‘orr’ there? Lastly, pvp cannot be combared on “hardest thing” scale because it’s not pve.

And this is why tying stats to gear in GW2 was a huge mistake.
They should have stuck with the GW1 arrangement. Stats should be controlled purely by trait point allocation.

a t s e.9614:

Ok , I need to stop using those forums , because I don’t understand 90% of the people that use them and it will cause conflict . If enjoying content for some people is clearing a dungeon in 2 hours instead of 10min then yes . I truly need to stop reading those forums . Considering clearing a dungeon faster will give you the end reward faster , it does really makes no sense to stay in those dungeons for 2 hours , omg i need to stop reading it now .

Let’s say a person’s goal in the game is to enjoy himself. He’s doing a dungeon with friends. The group is on Mumble, chatting, cutting up and generally enjoying each other’s company. No one is in a hurry. No one give’s a rat’s behind about getting pixelated rewards. They’re having fun with each other and that is their reward. Under those circumstances, a longer experience is more fun than racing through it.

My best memory in GW was a run in the Fissure of Woe. The heals monk had to log out due to migraine, a couple of others left. Five of us completed the clear, and it took us hours. I’d not had so much fun in a game before, and haven’t since.

Well everybody has their own perception of “fun” . For me fun is getting gold , as fast as possible and I do not want to spend 2 hours in a dungeon just because some people decide to kill everything in a cleric gear .

It’s just common sense , exemple if somebody wants to watch a cutscene , where’s the problem ? Or if somebody decide to solo a boss while we just watch him , alrights . It’s just common sense .

But killing everything and wearing a cleric setup just to play how you want and slow everybody down is not correct , it’s selfish .

a t s e.9614:

Well everybody has their own perception of “fun” . For me fun is getting gold , as fast as possible and I do not want to spend 2 hours in a dungeon just because some people decide to kill everything in a cleric gear .

It’s just common sense , exemple if somebody wants to watch a cutscene , where’s the problem ? Or if somebody decide to solo a boss while we just watch him , alrights . It’s just common sense .

But killing everything and wearing a cleric setup just to play how you want and slow everybody down is not correct , it’s selfish .

If the group wants to take their time, kill everything, and doesn’t care what gear people are wearing, it’s selfish to tell them they should play like you want to. Or maybe they should let you and those like you be, and you offer them the same courtesy.

a t s e.9614:

But killing everything and wearing a cleric setup just to play how you want and slow everybody down is not correct , it’s selfish .

Wrong, they payed for the game they can play it how they want without being selfish. It’s very simple, don’t pug.

Dromar.1027:

a t s e.9614:

But killing everything and wearing a cleric setup just to play how you want and slow everybody down is not correct , it’s selfish .

Wrong, they payed for the game they can play it how they want without being selfish. It’s very simple, don’t pug.

lol who are you to tell anyone not to pug. If you can do a walk in park/smell the roses runs with the pug, why can’t he do a zerker/skip everything run with the pug? As long as he’s playing with like-minded players, there’s no problem there.

There’s is a limit on play how you want . Yes I do want fast gold , but I will never say like : let’s go , you are too slow , don’t take any break, don’t go afk, atack faster and move faster >>> that would be the way I wanna play right? But I will never tell my party to do this because I know where the limits are.

Same thing for those who play they want , they can use the weapon they want , the class they want but comon a DPS oriented build and skipping is common sense . I don’t know if you understand what i mean. There is a limit on play how you want in a group situation , I cant force them to do everything faster without breaks and they cant force me to kill every single mob and wear the cleric set . It’s just common sense . Everybody is happy in the end.

Yenn.9185:

Adding vitality to zerker stats will make zerker even more overpowered. There is no reason to help casual play zerker by adding defensive stats; they just have to get better.

As it is, for low skilled players: berserker is high risk/high reward
For high skilled players: berserker is low risk/high reward.

Just have to get better.

Who told you casuals must be “bad” at GW2? That’s the silly, ill-placed elitist credo-too bad you fell for it.

Berserker’s is high risk, high reward for all players-just that the less experienced players will generally have more trouble handling it.

That said, I do not believe in nerfing Berserker’s gear stats-buff playstyle for other gear choices instead. Berserker’s gear deserves to be the most powerful offensively option given the risks players take in employing it-wouldn’t be deemed “Berserker’s” without such risk.

Yenn.9185:

Dromar.1027:

a t s e.9614:

But killing everything and wearing a cleric setup just to play how you want and slow everybody down is not correct , it’s selfish .

Wrong, they payed for the game they can play it how they want without being selfish. It’s very simple, don’t pug.

lol who are you to tell anyone not to pug. If you can do a walk in park/smell the roses runs with the pug, why can’t he do a zerker/skip everything run with the pug? As long as he’s playing with like-minded players, there’s no problem there.

Thats pretty much what I was trying to tell him. You are not going to find like minded players all the time in a pug. People are not selfish when they payed for the right to play how they want.

A skilled player will handle any gear just fine, perhaps with equal difficulty. A low-skilled player may have difficulty using berserkers.

a t s e.9614:

Ok , I need to stop using those forums , because I don’t understand 90% of the people that use them and it will cause conflict . If enjoying content for some people is clearing a dungeon in 2 hours instead of 10min then yes . I truly need to stop reading those forums . Considering clearing a dungeon faster will give you the end reward faster , it does really makes no sense to stay in those dungeons for 2 hours , omg i need to stop reading it now .

Perhaps you should, if you think 100% of players must enjoy the game the way you do, so you aren’t shocked by life’s reality that people like and enjoy different things.

However, the best choice is to learn to accept others opinions as valid, even if you will never agree with them.

Finally, your ten minute to two hours comparison is such an exaggeration, it’s actually mocking and offensive to those who don’t use the gear you prefer.

I don’t think I have ever seen these “elitists” to ask pvt (and so on) gear to be REMOVED. All they want is to play with like-minded people.

Then we have these “casuals” who want to destroy glass cannon setup because they don’t want to use them and want to get in EVERY party.

This has been said like million times. Play with like-minded people (create your own group if necessary) and most of the time everything will go fine.

Wethospu.6437:

I don’t think I have ever seen these “elitists” to ask pvt (and so on) gear to be REMOVED. All they want is to play with like-minded people.

Then we have these “casuals” who want to destroy glass cannon setup because they don’t want to use them and want to get in EVERY party.

This has been said like million times. Play with like-minded people (create your own group if necessary) and most of the time everything will go fine.

I agree with your conclusion, but it’s also common that many zerk-only players belittle players that don’t do things their way all the time, bullying them, etc. If these people would just shut up instead of trying to feel self-important by putting down others that play the game differently, the issue would be minimal. The Dungeons forum used to (maybe still is, haven’t checked in a few weks) be littered with garbage posts bullying and mocking people who just won’t do things their “efficient” way-why don’t they just concentrate on playing with like-minded people rather than insulting others?

Ego, ego, ego.

I also don’t condone insulting players in Berserker’s by claiming they get downed all the time, which isn’t necessarily true. Let people play whatever they want, and group up with whoever they want, but leave each other alone as every playstyle is valid to someone out there.

Well the other dude was suggesting to change the stats of the berserker gear for selfish purposes.

Wethospu.6437:

I don’t think I have ever seen these “elitists” to ask pvt (and so on) gear to be REMOVED. All they want is to play with like-minded people.

Then we have these “casuals” who want to destroy glass cannon setup because they don’t want to use them and want to get in EVERY party.

This has been said like million times. Play with like-minded people (create your own group if necessary) and most of the time everything will go fine.

Only a few have asked to nerf or remove it but many agree its very efficient over other setups and that gap troubles many including me because it splits the community with all this stay away from zerkers and stay with your own group. I don’t want zerker to get nerfed and we haven’t seen many adjustments in other areas towards balance so I am left to wonder if it’s always going to be like this

Yes it’s going to stay like this forever . Berserker’$ Power wins no matter how hard you try to nerf it .

The problem is not really berserker gear because it works just fine elsewhere. In PvP or WvW you can put emphasis on defense and you’re not going to be useless. Berserker’s superiority is strictly a dungeon problem.

The problem is that Arenanet has (in my opinion) massively failed to design proper, balanced dungeons. Obviously, when it is possible to dodge, block, kite or evade to avoid everything that matters and you don’t need to invest anything into defense to do that, berserker is always going to trump every other type of gear for seasoned players. And this isn’t an opinion, this is logic. If you’re good enough to stop everything from hitting you, why do you need that large buffer of extra health? So it’s the very design of the dungeons that make berserker gear so good in there.

The problem is that full-on offense and the general “the-best-defense-is-a-good-offense” mentality is not the favorite playstyle of everyone. A lot of players are more defense-oriented, and Arenanet’s dungeon design utterly fails to provide content for those players. Personally, I have no interest in maximizing my damage. What I want to do in a group is protecting people, taking hits for them, and healing and supporting them. Of course, I could do that, but I would be a waste of a party slot in an experienced team because it’s just sub-optimal to go defense in dungeons.

And I don’t even think the dungeons were supposed to be so offense-oriented at first. Their “Damage/Support/Control” paradigm sounded really fun. Like the trinity, it would have included all kinds of playstyles, both offensive and defensive, except that it was a lot more flexible and open-ended. For example, tanking is control, but don’t want to tank? Fine, you can also kite, interrupt, blind, stealth, stun, etc… As long as the boss is in control. But instead they came with their Defiant/Unshakable mechanic and turned their dungeons into this mindless and boring max-DPS mess. Why? Seriously, why was Damage/Support/Control never implemented in the game? This game’s dungeons could have been so much better. I’m still waiting for a developper to comment on dumping the Damage/Support/Control paradigm. We know that the personal story team was rushed, was the dungeon team rushed as well and had to take a shortcut with defiant/unshakable? I wonder.

Well now there is no dungeon team so we will be waiting forever for that word. But it been said a million times, the discrepancy between berserker builds and non berserker builds is not the players individually, it’s the groups they join. Every party has a description now, and the likely hood of finding a group that will kick you out due to gear type is pretty low unless you seek out those parties. A majority of players do play with anything they want, and that’s fine. But there’s another group of players who understand the efficiency of pure glass and can handle it, and you by no means have to play with them. The problem persists when clerics want to play with spee groups but don’t meet the criteria to perform adequately.

Someone brought up the example of GW1 speed clears and that they would let anyone in. This is untrue on a level I can’t even begin to explain. There were specific builds for those runs as there are specific builds for speed clears in GW2. You wouldn’t bring a W/Mo on an UWSC and you shouldn’t bring Clerics to a GW2 speed clear.

Gnat.9405:

Well now there is no dungeon team so we will be waiting forever for that word. But it been said a million times, the discrepancy between berserker builds and non berserker builds is not the players individually, it’s the groups they join. Every party has a description now, and the likely hood of finding a group that will kick you out due to gear type is pretty low unless you seek out those parties. A majority of players do play with anything they want, and that’s fine. But there’s another group of players who understand the efficiency of pure glass and can handle it, and you by no means have to play with them. The problem persists when clerics want to play with spee groups but don’t meet the criteria to perform adequately.

Someone brought up the example of GW1 speed clears and that they would let anyone in. This is untrue on a level I can’t even begin to explain. There were specific builds for those runs as there are specific builds for speed clears in GW2. You wouldn’t bring a W/Mo on an UWSC and you shouldn’t bring Clerics to a GW2 speed clear.

Off topic: I’m curious as to what makes you think there’s no dungeon team.

As for the Guild War 1 teams, I agree with you. I used to try to run my own build and I couldn’t get into groups unless I had the build of the week.

I understand why this happens with pugs. In a guild, where you know people, you can discuss strategy and try things. In a pug, everyone wants to get done and that means tried and true methods. Everyone knowing their role and what’s expected of them.

I think the difference in Guild Wars 1 though was it wasn’t just one profession or one time of gear that dominated those meta builds.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I have everything cleared but Arah. And I have a zerker set. I used it to burn down bloody prince in under 20 seconds with 4 others.

Can be done in 2 seconds. :P

I sometimes think zerker was intended. Especially for PVE. Judging by some of the class balance changes, there doesnt seem to be a rush on fixing the zerker speedruns. GS zerker warriors will still be top dogs in dungeons.

Im very sad that GS warriors were not looked at. I feel like I cannot play any other build with my warrior, or sometimes with any class, in fear of getting heckled by others to go GS/Zerker, or go home.

One problem that has not yet been adressed in this thread:

Difficult content has to be designed around berserker gear. Otherwise the speedclear groups would simply roll over it and the cries for more difficult content will never end.

So mobs get more health in order to outlast the berzerkers immediate spike. That way the berserkers need to cycle through atleast all their dodges and some defensive skills to make it through the fight alive.

At the same time however, this increased health can lengthen the time for a dungeon for non-zerkers by about 100% if not more. Possibly ruining their dungeon experience.

An argument made for zerker being balanced earlier has a bit of a flaw. The argument was that it is balanced in PvP, so the problem was just the content of PvE that doesn’t reward non-zerker gear.

While I do believe that there is something seriously wrong with this mostly single minded, zerker friendly PvE content. The PvP/PvE comparison isn’t complete.

In PvP we can’t reach the amount of stats that we can reach in PvE. And with power, critical damage and precision interacting so gloriously, all the extra’s are amplified. The more precision we have, the more effective our power and critical damage is. So nourishments are super effective in the zerker line-up.

The difference from a full berserker PvP character to a full berserker PvE character is much larger than that between a full carrion PvP character and a full carrion PvE character.

So while in PvP the berserker deals significantly more damage than the cleric, in PvE this difference is much larger.

I believe two changes are necessary:

• PvE content needs to be more varied in the types of challenge it delivers.

• The Power/Precision/Critical damage lineup needs a bit of a nerf. It should be the most damaging gear we could bring, but not by this large a margin. The prettiest way to do this would be through changes in the damage calculation. The easiest would be to just tone down the stats a bit.

Responding to the OP:

I don’t think zerker was intended to be the end-all to gear choice in PvE. Arenanet keeps using the words: build variety. This seems to indicate that choices and options are something they strive for. Legitimate options, not: A is pretty much always better than B,C,D,E,F and G when you have become an experienced player.

Bearhugger.4326:

The problem is not really berserker gear because it works just fine elsewhere. In PvP or WvW you can put emphasis on defense and you’re not going to be useless. Berserker’s superiority is strictly a dungeon problem.

The problem is that Arenanet has (in my opinion) massively failed to design proper, balanced dungeons. Obviously, when it is possible to dodge, block, kite or evade to avoid everything that matters and you don’t need to invest anything into defense to do that, berserker is always going to trump every other type of gear for seasoned players. And this isn’t an opinion, this is logic. If you’re good enough to stop everything from hitting you, why do you need that large buffer of extra health? So it’s the very design of the dungeons that make berserker gear so good in there.

The problem is that full-on offense and the general “the-best-defense-is-a-good-offense” mentality is not the favorite playstyle of everyone. A lot of players are more defense-oriented, and Arenanet’s dungeon design utterly fails to provide content for those players. Personally, I have no interest in maximizing my damage. What I want to do in a group is protecting people, taking hits for them, and healing and supporting them. Of course, I could do that, but I would be a waste of a party slot in an experienced team because it’s just sub-optimal to go defense in dungeons.

And I don’t even think the dungeons were supposed to be so offense-oriented at first. Their “Damage/Support/Control” paradigm sounded really fun. Like the trinity, it would have included all kinds of playstyles, both offensive and defensive, except that it was a lot more flexible and open-ended. For example, tanking is control, but don’t want to tank? Fine, you can also kite, interrupt, blind, stealth, stun, etc… As long as the boss is in control. But instead they came with their Defiant/Unshakable mechanic and turned their dungeons into this mindless and boring max-DPS mess. Why? Seriously, why was Damage/Support/Control never implemented in the game? This game’s dungeons could have been so much better. I’m still waiting for a developper to comment on dumping the Damage/Support/Control paradigm. We know that the personal story team was rushed, was the dungeon team rushed as well and had to take a shortcut with defiant/unshakable? I wonder.

This. It’s not a stat array issue, it is more a content design issue. Instead of making the bosses singular slow attacking HP sponges with an overwhelmingly dodgeable damage output, the design should have had more attrition elements included to make sure every stat set had a chance to shine.

Otherwise, why have them at all if zerker is the default best option once you can handle it?

The answer is to have dungeons scale for zerkers. I know it sounds silly, but if Anet is going to up the health on bosses for guys who want to run through dungeons as fast as humanly possible, they screw up those dungeons for anyone who wants to just play a character (which is what an RPG should be about, from my point of view).

The whole mechanics/efficiency thing kills any aspect of RPG. You can’t play a support character, because it doesn’t help your team. You can only play a damage dealer. I’m not even talking about role-playing in the RP sense of the word. I’m talking about being vested in your character. Far more people play RPGs and get vested in their characters than most people think, even if they don’t actually RP.

So you have this image of this support guy, and then you have to make him a brutal killer no matter what. That just sucks.

By the same token, it sucks that the entire game is balanced around a meta that precludes people bringing the guy they want to bring.

In my guild no one cares. No one asks about gear or builds (which is how I prefer to play). But no one enjoys whacking away at a sack of hit points either. It’s just bad design.

It seems to me the game should be able to analyze the general damage output potential of a party and scale boss damage so that it doesn’t take much longer if you’re not actually bringing zerkers. Which allows people to play how they want.

Vayne.8563:

Fortunately I’ve joined a guild that’s happy to take anyone into any dungeon with any build they have. And you know…we clear content just fine.

Maybe not as efficiently as the zerker warrior parties, but I’d wager we have as much fun as anyone.

I don’t care about that beserker armour one bit. And this by Vayne is the most important reason.

This is a really noob question but I never do dungeons (I’ve only done AC/CM and CoE) but how do you guys check when the bosses/mobs attack? In the couple of groups I’ve been in people are always stacking up on top of the mobs and I find it really difficult to see when they are attacking through all the spell animations and fields.

Also, the last time I did a dungeon I joined CM with my level 60 Elementalist and I kept getting 1 shotted, we finished the dungeon and no one complained but I felt really bad for my party as they were all level 80 and some of them were dying but not half as much as I was.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Let’s say a person’s goal in the game is to enjoy himself. He’s doing a dungeon with friends. The group is on Mumble, chatting, cutting up and generally enjoying each other’s company. No one is in a hurry. No one give’s a rat’s behind about getting pixelated rewards. They’re having fun with each other and that is their reward. Under those circumstances, a longer experience is more fun than racing through it.

My best memory in GW was a run in the Fissure of Woe. The heals monk had to log out due to migraine, a couple of others left. Five of us completed the clear, and it took us hours. I’d not had so much fun in a game before, and haven’t since.

This is the type of group I enjoy playing with, the types of memories I have from GW1. Things like:

Finishing fow with only 4 or 5 people, while playing as the bond monk (no significant heals specced).

The team near wiping on Plains in UW, but the ele terra tank surviving long enough to down the foes and get at least the monk back up to rez the rest of the team.

The monk, stepping in to play tank while still keeping the rest of the team up (cause the self proclaimed tank was uber terrible and likely left – the jerk).

Sometimes it takes a lot longer, but the people make it worthwhile because it’s simply fun. It’s not about how fast you can do it. It’s not about how optimized you are. Its not about how fast you can get to the shiny at the end. It’s about the experience you have between points A and B. Honestly, I thought that’s what MMOs were about, considering how loudly people yell about the social aspect of these games.

Still, I understand that for some people, getting from point A to point B as fast as they can to get the shiny is fun for them. To each their own.

That said, let people play however they want. I don’t care if you’re wearing zerkers or soldiers. If you personally run zerkers, and don’t want to play with someone in non-zerkers, fine. Specify as much, and move on. You don’t need to be a kitten to someone just because they enjoy playing differently than you. You don’t need to preach at them like some religious zealot. Simply let them play their own way, and you go yours. The same applies to anyone in any other armor type, let the zerkers be, you aren’t going to change their play style anymore than they will change yours. Neither side is right, neither side is wrong because, while the math does not lie you can get bigger numbers with zerkers, the choice of what you wear is still based on personal preference.

Disclaimer: The use of the word “you” in the above discussion does not target any specific individual. It is a general use term.

IndigoSundown.5419:

a t s e.9614:

Ok , I need to stop using those forums , because I don’t understand 90% of the people that use them and it will cause conflict . If enjoying content for some people is clearing a dungeon in 2 hours instead of 10min then yes . I truly need to stop reading those forums . Considering clearing a dungeon faster will give you the end reward faster , it does really makes no sense to stay in those dungeons for 2 hours , omg i need to stop reading it now .

Let’s say a person’s goal in the game is to enjoy himself. He’s doing a dungeon with friends. The group is on Mumble, chatting, cutting up and generally enjoying each other’s company. No one is in a hurry. No one give’s a rat’s behind about getting pixelated rewards. They’re having fun with each other and that is their reward. Under those circumstances, a longer experience is more fun than racing through it.

My best memory in GW was a run in the Fissure of Woe. The heals monk had to log out due to migraine, a couple of others left. Five of us completed the clear, and it took us hours. I’d not had so much fun in a game before, and haven’t since.

Migraine was OP on Monks if you didn’t bring hex removal. Can’t blame him for leaving!

Lanfear I honestly think a lot of people who play MMOs quite sadly and simply have no life. I know that sound really harsh but it’s true, youth unemployment is at an all time high and for a lot of people between the ages of 16-25, a game like WoW/GW/LoL is the only “goal” they have due to lack of opportunities, they create this artificial goal due to lack of career/life progression and they use getting that next “purple” as an incentive to keep living.