Guild Wars 2

This article covers the concepts of Horizontal progression in an awesome way. Atm, there are is only 1 true horizontal progression game (GW1), since GW2 has decided to go the way of Vertical progression. It’s a shame, but I do hope other games will take up the mantle of Guild Wars 1. I’d love to see a true sequel to that game.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

same thing I wrote:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Solving-the-issue-of-vertical-progression/first#post964422

except I gave some actual formulas for it, instead of just mindlessly writing about it like that guy does

people just don’t give the truth-tellers credit sigh, always have to rely on more eloquently written articles

PS: and yes I did come up with the original level scaling idea

when are the people who make the actual contributions going to receive credit instead of all those annoying people out there who just write articles about it and then are worshpiped

Here’s your credit for having an idea hundred’s have voiced, ‘formulated’, wrote about, and made video’s of well before this post, your post 6 days ago, or before this game started. Keep up the good work.

I’d also love to see a true sequel to Diablo 2.

I played D3, complained that they took everything good about D2 away, and then realized that Diablo 3 is not Diablo 2 Part 2.

Let’s be honest here, they essentially copied the WOW talent tree system in order to cater to the WOW market, and they caved into WOW-style gear-grinding as well, albeit at a decreased level, but make no mistake, adding a grind/timesink/skinner box was a key element of the decision.

Vertical progression =/= gear treadmill.
Adding one more tier of gear =/= gear treadmill.

Stop acting as if Anet announced that they were going to add a new tier (Of which is required to be viable in PvE and WvW), every other month.

Real problem is how you can only get these Ascended items from fractals… Luckily Anet have addressed this as an issue.

Ironcloud.3892:

Vertical progression =/= gear treadmill.
Adding one more tier of gear =/= gear treadmill.

Stop acting as if Anet announced that they were going to add a new tier (Of which is required to be viable in PvE and WvW), every other month.

Real problem is how you can only get these Ascended items from fractals… Luckily Anet have addressed this as an issue.

Adding a statistically superior set of gear that requires several hundred hours of repetitive gameplay in order to get is the very definition of a gear grind. Take the fanboi glasses off.

mjharrison.3209:

Ironcloud.3892:

Vertical progression =/= gear treadmill.
Adding one more tier of gear =/= gear treadmill.

Stop acting as if Anet announced that they were going to add a new tier (Of which is required to be viable in PvE and WvW), every other month.

Real problem is how you can only get these Ascended items from fractals… Luckily Anet have addressed this as an issue.

Adding a statistically superior set of gear that requires several hundred hours of repetitive gameplay in order to get is the very definition of a gear grind. Take the fanboi glasses off.

Where did I say it wasn’t a grind? It sure as hell is a grind, that is another problem, but it isn’t a gear treadmill.

Let it go Ironcloud, people like to use big words they don’t understand nowadays, it make them look as if they have a clue about what they’re talking about.

Ironcloud.3892:

mjharrison.3209:

Ironcloud.3892:

Vertical progression =/= gear treadmill.
Adding one more tier of gear =/= gear treadmill.

Stop acting as if Anet announced that they were going to add a new tier (Of which is required to be viable in PvE and WvW), every other month.

Real problem is how you can only get these Ascended items from fractals… Luckily Anet have addressed this as an issue.

Adding a statistically superior set of gear that requires several hundred hours of repetitive gameplay in order to get is the very definition of a gear grind. Take the fanboi glasses off.

Where did I say it wasn’t a grind? It sure as hell is a grind, that is another problem, but it isn’t a gear treadmill.

Its making a very good impersonation of a gear treadmill if its not one, kind not sure how you cant see its a gear treadmill to be honest..

mjharrison.3209:

Adding a statistically superior set of gear that requires several hundred hours of repetitive gameplay in order to get is the very definition of a gear grind. Take the fanboi glasses off.

As opposed to what? Adding a statistically inferior or just on-par-with-current-models set of gear that also requires several hundred hours of repetitive gameplay to get for new content?

you are all incredible, all of you kittening and whining about how to or not to get the gear, NONE OF YOU actually think you have nothing to do with it after you get it, that’s the real issue of this game.

Foolish that you guys are crying about gear treadmills and grinding in an MMORPG. I mean how stupid can you be to buy into something like “horizontal progression”, it’s the same as NO progression. So stop crying and HOPE for vertical progression or enjoy your game dying at it’s current rate.

It’s the rate of progression that your worried about, not progression in itself, it should be assumed that if you quit playing GW2 for a year your going to have some work to do to get caught up, if not then why in the world would you even come back to begin with????

Just take one second to try your best and comprehend the situation, I’m sorry anet confused you all with their manifesto, It’s an MMORPG there will be progression of some sort don’t know why they would state differently.

Gabi.5264:

you are all incredible, all of you kittening and whining about how to or not to get the gear, NONE OF YOU actually think you have nothing to do with it after you get it, that’s the real issue of this game.

That is the issue of EVERY game. What other logical purpose is there to acquiring better gear than to cover the existing content better to acquire even more better gear. There is no solution to this problem at all. Not now, not ever.

The problem is not in the content or game mechanics. It is in the player mentality. Gear grind is a choice. It can be argued that there is only one or two ways to play the game efficiently according to a specific player-established goal, but it is NOT -as far as I know GW2 is concerned- the only thing that the game is offering for you to do.

Dante.1508:

Ironcloud.3892:

mjharrison.3209:

Ironcloud.3892:

Vertical progression =/= gear treadmill.
Adding one more tier of gear =/= gear treadmill.

Stop acting as if Anet announced that they were going to add a new tier (Of which is required to be viable in PvE and WvW), every other month.

Real problem is how you can only get these Ascended items from fractals… Luckily Anet have addressed this as an issue.

Adding a statistically superior set of gear that requires several hundred hours of repetitive gameplay in order to get is the very definition of a gear grind. Take the fanboi glasses off.

Where did I say it wasn’t a grind? It sure as hell is a grind, that is another problem, but it isn’t a gear treadmill.

Its making a very good impersonation of a gear treadmill if its not one, kind not sure how you cant see its a gear treadmill to be honest..

At the moment it’s simply a gear road and Anet have just extended it a bit. It seems like Anets goal is just slightly longer endgame stat progression, not necessarily continuous stat progression, but who knows, it very well could turn into a treadmill, but currently it’s not and I doubt it ever will.

The issue is simple to me Khemizt and revolves around two basic elements:

1) Although GW1 did not have a persistent world it was still close enough to an MMO. I was focused around horizontal progression and it worked for many people. In fact Arenanet were themselves surprised at how much success the game had, and more importantly in this discussion, how many hours people played the game. It is not a stretch to think or expect that GW2 would go along those lines as well, considering the success it had.

2) GW2 is a full fledged MMO. Promises aside, vertical progression is poorly implemented at best. The sad reality for me is, however, that horizontal progression is also poorly implemented. Instead of the best of two worlds, we have neither here.

Gabi.5264:

you are all incredible, all of you kittening and whining about how to or not to get the gear, NONE OF YOU actually think you have nothing to do with it after you get it, that’s the real issue of this game.

110% correct, anet took the end out endgame because the current players won’t allow there to be any, this is partially anets fault with the manifesto. Have fun getting your one gear set and doing NOTHING with it, the game never changes levels aren’t needed you do the same thing you do at level 1 at level 80.

Ironcloud.3892:

Vertical progression =/= gear treadmill.
Adding one more tier of gear =/= gear treadmill.

Stop acting as if Anet announced that they were going to add a new tier (Of which is required to be viable in PvE and WvW), every other month.

Real problem is how you can only get these Ascended items from fractals… Luckily Anet have addressed this as an issue.

^This.

People now often speaks about vertical progression being bad. Vertical progression is only bad if the stuff you have to do to get up, becomes grindy and repetitive.

I don’t mind ANET keeping adding new tier of gear to spice up the game and players motivation, as people reach the top and think they have nothing more to do (due to the old MMO playing style where getting the gear was the purpose of the game, instead of the real FUN). The situation is here is how to prevent grinding?
For ascended gear, yes, the gear is only available trough grind in the fractals system, but i believe ANet already stated the intention of adding a bunch of ways to get it and to remove any grinding possibility.

Khemizt.5104:

Foolish that you guys are crying about gear treadmills and grinding in an MMORPG. I mean how stupid can you be to buy into something like “horizontal progression”, it’s the same as NO progression. So stop crying and HOPE for vertical progression or enjoy your game dying at it’s current rate.

It’s the rate of progression that your worried about, not progression in itself, it should be assumed that if you quit playing GW2 for a year your going to have some work to do to get caught up, if not then why in the world would you even come back to begin with????

Just take one second to try your best and comprehend the situation, I’m sorry anet confused you all with their manifesto, It’s an MMORPG there will be progression of some sort don’t know why they would state differently.

This, boys and girls, is what a WoW player looks like. Someone who has never experienced gameplay beyond chasing bigger numbers from month to month. The idea of Guild Wars 1, where the stats introduced in 2005 were the same max stats in 2012 and yet the game remained successful is absolute voodoo to this type of player.

This complete lack of ability to comprehend a game type outside of the WoW mold is exactly why so many clones exist, and why this game is trying to join in on it. It’s sad, but true, that most MMO players honestly believe the above quoted statement

Tolmos.8395:

Khemizt.5104:

Foolish that you guys are crying about gear treadmills and grinding in an MMORPG. I mean how stupid can you be to buy into something like “horizontal progression”, it’s the same as NO progression. So stop crying and HOPE for vertical progression or enjoy your game dying at it’s current rate.

It’s the rate of progression that your worried about, not progression in itself, it should be assumed that if you quit playing GW2 for a year your going to have some work to do to get caught up, if not then why in the world would you even come back to begin with????

Just take one second to try your best and comprehend the situation, I’m sorry anet confused you all with their manifesto, It’s an MMORPG there will be progression of some sort don’t know why they would state differently.

This, boys and girls, is what a WoW player looks like. Someone who has never experienced gameplay beyond chasing bigger numbers from month to month. The idea of Guild Wars 1, where the stats introduced in 2005 were the same max stats in 2012 and yet the game remained successful is absolute voodoo to this type of player.

This complete lack of ability to comprehend a game type outside of the WoW mold is exactly why so many clones exist, and why this game is trying to join in on it. It’s sad, but true, that most MMO players honestly believe the above quoted statement

“Guild Wars 1, where the stats introduced in 2005 were the same max stats in 2012 and yet the game *remained successful” Thats why we needed a GW2 rite? The game was not successfull for the past few years whatsoever, this one is already on the fast track to failing (check any site that has a population ticker) WoW on the other hand has remained popular because they engage users and keep them playing unlike this game where you get your legendary and your done. Thanks for your input, even though it’s completely wrong. This game is not a good MMORPG no matter how you look at it.

Just the fact that you think GW1 was wildly popular when they released this shows how foolish you are, no company would make a product to compete with a current one if it was doing well lol, it was not received well by the western audience hence why you have GW2…….

Khemizt.5104:

Tolmos.8395:

Khemizt.5104:

Foolish that you guys are crying about gear treadmills and grinding in an MMORPG. I mean how stupid can you be to buy into something like “horizontal progression”, it’s the same as NO progression. So stop crying and HOPE for vertical progression or enjoy your game dying at it’s current rate.

It’s the rate of progression that your worried about, not progression in itself, it should be assumed that if you quit playing GW2 for a year your going to have some work to do to get caught up, if not then why in the world would you even come back to begin with????

Just take one second to try your best and comprehend the situation, I’m sorry anet confused you all with their manifesto, It’s an MMORPG there will be progression of some sort don’t know why they would state differently.

This, boys and girls, is what a WoW player looks like. Someone who has never experienced gameplay beyond chasing bigger numbers from month to month. The idea of Guild Wars 1, where the stats introduced in 2005 were the same max stats in 2012 and yet the game remained successful is absolute voodoo to this type of player.

This complete lack of ability to comprehend a game type outside of the WoW mold is exactly why so many clones exist, and why this game is trying to join in on it. It’s sad, but true, that most MMO players honestly believe the above quoted statement

“Guild Wars 1, where the stats introduced in 2005 were the same max stats in 2012 and yet the game *remained successful” Thats why we needed a GW2 rite? The game was not successfull for the past few years whatsoever, this one is already on the fast track to failing (check any site that has a population ticker) WoW on the other hand has remained popular because they engage users and keep them playing unlike this game where you get your legendary and your done. Thanks for your input, even though it’s completely wrong. This game is not a good MMORPG no matter how you look at it.

Just the fact that you think GW1 was wildly popular when they released this shows how foolish you are, no company would make a product to compete with a current one if it was doing well lol, it was not received well by the western audience hence why you have GW2…….

The outdated graphics or a current running lifespan of 8 years has absolutely nothing to do with the release of this game, and the current population of it, amirite? GW1 lasting longer than most modern AAA MMOs must just be a fluke, huh? It producing content 7 years after release was just Arenanet clinging into the dead husk of a game, I suppose?

You’re on a roll, for sure man. 2 for 2!

projectcedric.6951:

I played D3, complained that they took everything good about D2 away, and then realized that Diablo 3 is not Diablo 2 Part 2.

Would have been a better game if it was.

Khemizt.5104:

Foolish that you guys are crying about gear treadmills and grinding in an MMORPG. I mean how stupid can you be to buy into something like “horizontal progression”, it’s the same as NO progression. So stop crying and HOPE for vertical progression or enjoy your game dying at it’s current rate.

It’s the rate of progression that your worried about, not progression in itself, it should be assumed that if you quit playing GW2 for a year your going to have some work to do to get caught up, if not then why in the world would you even come back to begin with????

Just take one second to try your best and comprehend the situation, I’m sorry anet confused you all with their manifesto, It’s an MMORPG there will be progression of some sort don’t know why they would state differently.

I’m sorry:
-higher stats makes the game easier → reverse progression
-no stat increase makes you work harder to achieve more difficult content → progression as a player

Tolmos.8395:

This article covers the concepts of Horizontal progression in an awesome way. Atm, there are is only 1 true horizontal progression game (GW1), since GW2 has decided to go the way of Vertical progression. It’s a shame, but I do hope other games will take up the mantle of Guild Wars 1. I’d love to see a true sequel to that game.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

Horizontal progression is actually a preferable method.

But here in GW2, they tacked it on so it will forever feel “unnatural” and grindy.

Horizontal progression simply does not engage players enough.

Horizontal progression simply didn’t please enough the mass of ex-wow hard-core players who jumped on the gw2 train at launch, and after 2 months during which there were pretty bad exploits which had ruined the economy to the point we stand now, where some player have thousand of gold while the majority has tenth at most, there were rich players bought any gear they needed on the TP and grinded the dungeons till they were bored.

Because even if designers can’t wonder that, there are players who can dis-humanly grind the kitten out of a game in few weeks, whether the content has being designed to be farmed over months or years, and then these burned-out players started to scream loudly on forums for new content because there was none.

At that point horizontal progression lacked what it makes it shine: exclusive skins skins and skins, the fluffy things that could be collected by challenging achievements based on skills only and not on grind like it was.
The things that makes your toon stands out from the crowd and let you feel rewarded.

There are even few skins that you can buy of gems, namely 3, and they are even 1 time use only, i’d feel moneyraped buying them. On DCUO when i buy a skin i can use it how many times i want and on all my toons, old and new, and so my transaction feels valuable to me at such conditions, and i’ve bought many. That is not he case here in gw2 where all the gems market is “consumable” except additional character and bank slots, which are the only things i indeed bought.

They could have improved the game in fixing exploits, bugs and reducing bots.

Instead they gave us FotM (which is imho an ill made choice for a name of a dungeon made to cater elitists, if a company would held any respect of their customers) and vertical progression, reduced drop rates and grindy game style.

So i feel a little disappointed in my expectations, can’t help in feeling that. Because there is so much attention in realizing some parts of the game, and a total lack in other core game design departments.

Honestly, the Ascended and FotM conceptually don’t bother me…. but the execution in the horizontal progression just wasn’t enough; good HP requires a truly dynamic world of change or continuous content. Planetside 2 has better horizontal progression than GW2 interestingly enough… the 3 massive continents are always shifting in terms of who has what and no piece of the map is insignificant; you log off and come back on later and your faction could be better/worse off than it was before. In GW2, you or others failing/succeeding in a DE or WvW really has little impact on the world. When horizontal progression lacks consequences for participating/not-participating, then people generally don’t give a kitten about playing it after awhile.

I would like to make just one comment here. Yes ascended gear is vertical progression, and yes it is very grind-y at the moment. This does not make it a gear treadmill. A gear treadmill is usually the forced progression of gear in order to proceed to the next one. Once you start seeing people look for party members with x amount of hp or y amount of toughness in order to be considered for a party, then we have a gear treadmill. Stat requirements essentially, are the true tell tale of a gear treadmill, and right now its not in the game. Note this does not include being level 80 and geared as such (vs being 80 and using level 10 gear).

It wasn’t an “excellent article,” it was a pile of dung.

“People are demanding horizontal progression.”

Just how many people are demanding it and are some of these the same people who cry about “nothing to do” in a mmo forum before they bounce to the next newest mmo or even better yet, back to WoW and vertical progression because its actually sustainable.

Theres only one game I can think of that does well with horizontal progression.

Wait for it,.. wait for it,… The Sims.

Why don’t you people just go play The Sims rather than crusading on the internets for mmos having less purpose to play than The Sims. Its like begging to not have a reason to get up in the morning or aspiring to play in a land of video game hobos.

Yes crusading…. heaven forbid a game deliver on properly executing what it advertises and bettering the systems it already has in place, and consumers demanding more/better from their suppliers.