Guild Wars 2

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Durian, I think asking if something is an exploit is ok, as long as you don’t open a discussion about it in the forums. By doing so, it turns into advertising.

Geotherma saved me time by quoting the rules. Thanks mate. Those general outlines help a lot. It’s sad that some people need to have their hands held, and individual situations explained one by one.

Anet Devs have said numerous times that if you come across something that seems like an exploit, STOP doing it, and use the report function in game.

Farming CoF seems like an exploit, because you make more than any other farming in the game. Should everyone stop that?

As a company, ANET has a reputation. Part of reputation is how you handle things like this, but another part of it is whether things like this happen at all.

If they announce exploits all the time, it basically announces that they’ve messed something up. Publically. Whenever they do patch notes, they are announcing it, but it’s not as bold as “Here is an exploit you can do it. Do not do it, or we will ban you.”

It’s a pride thing.

If anything, a better solution might be sending players a mail message whenever they use the exploit and saying if they do it again that they will face a ban.

Though I don’t think they’ve banned players for doing an exploit once. I think they’ve banned the players who did it 100, 1000, or 10000 times. And really, if something is working for you well enough that you want to repeat it 100 times, and you don’t see any evidence to support that it isn’t an exploit, you should probably think that it may be an exploit.

There have been a few large bannings already, so it’s not like players don’t have warnings about it.

I do find it strange what you guys said about “reporting exploits being a bannable offense”.

That sounds kind of dumb of ANET. Unless you mean “posting exploits on the forums”. In which case… DUH. Don’t post exploits on the forums, because then other players will see the exploits and try to do them.

Oh, and…

Geikamir.6329:

Farming CoF seems like an exploit, because you make more than any other farming in the game. Should everyone stop that?

First of all, this seems unrelated to what you quoted. Unless your relation is to the fact he said you should stop using an exploit and report it in game.

Second of all, your example is awful. Just as bad if not worse than most of the examples given in this thread.

Of course doing a dungeon isn’t an exploit. Nor is repeating it. Is selling 1 Sharp Claw to the merchant an exploit? No? Is selling 10 Sharp Claws to the merchant an exploit? No? Is selling 100 Sharp Claws to the merchant an exploit? No? Is selling 1000 Sharp Claws to the merchant an exploit? No? Repetition of regular content isn’t an exploit.

The idea that it is an exploit because it makes you “more than any other farming in the game” doesn’t make sense either. Something has to be the best. Being the best doesn’t make it an exploit, it makes it the best. If CoF didn’t exist, then something else would be the best. If that other thing didn’t exist, a different thing would be the best. Being the best isn’t an exploit.

If you found a trick where running into a certain wall after you beat the final boss caused the level to glitch and the boss to spawn again, resetting the dungeon, allowing you to gain the money and tokens over and over without leaving the dungeon, that would be an exploit. If you found a trick where you could kick one party member and invite a new one in order to give them the rewards at the end of a dungeon (even though the rewards were already gained by the first player), that is an exploit.

Those are REAL examples. Please start using REAL examples instead of random obvious examples of what is not exploiting.

And I understand some of you are using these as a mockery (such as my Sharp Claws comment), but the above post doesn’t even make sense to be mocked.

Geikamir.6329:

What about if you go and buy a stuffed animal for $1. You think “Hey, this is a really nice stuffed animal, I bet people would actually pay more for it if I resold it.” You buy 1000 of them, put a bow on their head, and resell at a higher price. Then you get a subpoena to court saying you are being sued because they meant to put the price at $10. This would never hold up. That’s basically how flipping houses works.

Understood, but from what I know, (only in the UK at the very most – and is most likely covered by the consumer goods act) is that if that item is marked incorrectly, no matter how low, when you get to the cashier, and have 1000 of them, they have to sell it to you at that value. They can alter the value after that purchase, but they have to sell it to you at that value if you have proof that the item has been listed incorrectly (usually in the form of taking the little price label out of the shelf and showing it to a member of staff)

After that, reselling is on the owner, and it’s not illegal to resell items you own. You may be cautioned for selling items and claiming them as your own, but if you openly say “I got this from shop x, but I don’t want it Would you like it for xx price? I’ve also attached a bow on it because I think it looks nicer”

Geotherma.2395:

I can agree with context. But, crazy stuff is perspective. If you paid for 3 keys and get 3 tickets, or 5 tickets, how is that an exploit? If you have a feeling after reading how others spent $300, then send an email. Dear Arenanet, I have gotten a ton of tickets, it feels a little too good to be true. So I STOPPED doing this and emailed to protect myself." Is that hard? Nope. Anyone can do it.

The problem is that ANet never responds to these. So I might be thinking something is an exploit and stop out of fear, but that doesn’t inform me if my actions are intended or not.

Example, 8-bit chests were popping up over Tyria. I didn’t visit Rata Sum and so I had no idea that Moto’s sprites were escaped. I opened a few and then saw that they spawned again within a few moments. I shrug and collect a few baubles, then stop and say, “Hmm, this seems too good to be true because I have collected 250 of them within a few moments, with almost no work…perhaps I should stop.”

Then the chests disappear after April 1st and I missed out.

You may argue that this sounds stupid and unrealistic, but why? If I had started GW2 last week, how would I know that this is common place? How would I know if it was intended or not? I would simply assume it was, until told differently.

Now, what if it was an exploit and I was banned without warning because I farmed baubles for a few hours? Does that seem fair?

What if I logged in and there was a message telling me that the chest were spawning faster than expected and if I farmed them I would be banned. Do you not think I would have avoided them?

Geotherma.2395:

And we can’t judge people on what they can afford…

Your examples are exactly why I’m proposing the change. You have left it up to the individual player to recognize, and understand that something is “off” with the game. This is a bad approach in my opinion because every player has a different expectation of what is considered normal or not based on many factors.

If ANet just explained that it was in fact an exploit, it would eliminate the need for players to guess, especially since guessing wrong has such high consequences.

Geotherma.2395:

Does X give you X every time? Does X give you 10000000X’s every time? have you asked people if this happened to them? ……

Ahhh, that’s the thing. I can’t ask others. Why? Because to explain what I’m doing is considered a account terminating offence.

Understand that it is against the rules to detail something you’re unsure of. If I say, “Hey look, this is what I did, and this happened as a result, is this normal?” on these forums or in-game, I can be banned. That is not cool!

Geotherma.2395:

Step 1: Can you apply ethics to it.
You did very little work, and yet huge reward. Is this common, or is this luck? Search for an answer.

This is subjective in a game like GW2. There are too many variables to properly judge this.

Secondly, because ANet doesn’t release details on exploits, I will more often than not find no information, thus leaving it in my hands to judge whether it is common, or luck.

Geotherma.2395:

Step 2: Does it seem too easy?
A 10 second email will let you know if it is ok or not ok, and that email is your protection that you did not know.

Again, this is subjective. What is easy for some, is hard for others. I may follow 50 players up an alternate jumping puzzle route, seems easy for some, but still seems hard for me, yet I used an unknown exploit.

“10 second email” to whom? So if I send off emails to ANet, an never get a reply that is my defence? That’s not a very good strategy in my opinion. I would rather they tell me exactly what is an exploit so I can avoid it and not have to defend myself against my own ignorance.

Geotherma.2395:

Step 3: Did you keep doing it, knowing that it seemed fishy and unfair?
If yes, prepare for Gailes banhammer.
If no, then good job, wait for that reply.

Again, you’re speaking as though the average player is somehow able to figure this out. If I saw 8-bit chests popping up and wasn’t aware it was an exploit (due to many factors), then of course I would keep doing it. Why wouldn’t I?

I’m not going to stop doing something I don’t believe is wrong. It may seem “fishy” but because my threshold of what constitutes “fishy” is different, I run the risk of misjudging.

ANet should just tell me and eliminate the chance I may have misjudged.

Geotherma.2395:

tldr: KISS:Keep it simple stupid. Rewards are called rewards because they are earned. If it took nothing to earn, or required spamming some button/item/place/thing, it probably is not legit. When in doubt, email it out.

PS: if you have an example of other MMO’s who deal with exploits differently pelase list. Or have ideas that have worked in other MMO’s please list. Otherwise, the franchise, the MMO world, and devs are working as intended.

That statement is a fallacy. It is what everyone is doing, so it’s working as intended is a lazy argument in my opinion. I’m not trying to sound insulting, but that’s the old, “If everyone was jumping off a bridge…” argument.

I’m sure it’s working as intended, but that doesn’t automatically mean it’s working the best it can be.

nethykins.7986:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

nethykins.7986:

Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.

In the UK at least, if something’s malfunctioned, or not working as intended and gives you more than it should have, it’s in the companies best interest to fix it, and customers don’t, blame is placed on them. Same goes for mis-labeled items in shops. If you see it mis-labeled at £9.00 instead of £90.00, you get that item for that £9.00 until someone goes and fixes that label.

When it comes to games, it’s never about “you did this wrong” it’s about the integrity of the game, and in this case, the integrity of the in-game market. (which for some reason ANet think’s the game will implode a billion time’s over if it isn’t reinforced with perma-bans)

“Exploit” is now just a blanket word to cover a vast number of things in game…just because.

And I bet this will get closed sharpish, just for bringing it up.

I’m sorry, but have you read this post? Where did I say that people shouldn’t be banned for taking advantage of exploits?

Where did I say stealing is justified?

Please pay attention and read the posts before muddying up the discussion with irrelevant nonsense.

Thanks,

Hey crazy,
I actually wasn’t referring to your post as the “justifying stealing post”, hence, “Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.”
I didn’t say you were, in fact, i was laughing at one person in particular that did say you were.

Then off of the back of your analogy, I threw in comment in relation to if it were in the UK, you weren’t liable for an error in part of the company. etc

Not too sure why you’re considering my post as an attack on yours.

I’m sorry, it’s actually 3:38 am here and I’m trying to get through a lot of posts. My mistake. I apologize.

nethykins.7986:

Geikamir.6329:

What about if you go and buy a stuffed animal for $1. You think “Hey, this is a really nice stuffed animal, I bet people would actually pay more for it if I resold it.” You buy 1000 of them, put a bow on their head, and resell at a higher price. Then you get a subpoena to court saying you are being sued because they meant to put the price at $10. This would never hold up. That’s basically how flipping houses works.

Understood, but from what I know, (only in the UK at the very most – and is most likely covered by the consumer goods act) is that if that item is marked incorrectly, no matter how low, when you get to the cashier, and have 1000 of them, they have to sell it to you at that value. They can alter the value after that purchase, but they have to sell it to you at that value if you have proof that the item has been listed incorrectly (usually in the form of taking the little price label out of the shelf and showing it to a member of staff)

After that, reselling is on the owner, and it’s not illegal to resell items you own. You may be cautioned for selling items and claiming them as your own, but if you openly say “I got this from shop x, but I don’t want it Would you like it for xx price? I’ve also attached a bow on it because I think it looks nicer”

Exactly!

It’s not illegal for me to buy a flat of soda and resell them to my sports team. That is, unless they state directly on the can, “Not for resale.”

If a store makes a mistake an marks an item lower than what they intended, and I take advantage of that mistake (you can’t assume I even knew it was), then I’m well within my rights to resell my property at whatever cost I choose.

What I’m saying here is different though. I’m not saying that ANet shouldn’t make mistakes, or that people shouldn’t be banned for using exploits, I’m simply saying that by educating their players, they can let them know the rules and expectation before they’ve been banned.

Question. Was anyone ACTUALLY banned for using those unlimited drink bottles in the Personal Story instances? I find it a bit hard to believe that ANet would hand out permabans for that, as the only reward you get is a title; it’s not something that has the ability to catastrophically affect the game’s economy or state. At most, I would expect ANet might hand out a suspension for the most blatant offenders.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Geotherma.2395:

Step 1: Can you apply ethics to it.
You did very little work, and yet huge reward. Is this common, or is this luck? Search for an answer.

This is subjective in a game like GW2. There are too many variables to properly judge this.

Secondly, because ANet doesn’t release details on exploits, I will more often than not find no information, thus leaving it in my hands to judge whether it is common, or luck.

Geotherma.2395:

Step 2: Does it seem too easy?
A 10 second email will let you know if it is ok or not ok, and that email is your protection that you did not know.

Again, this is subjective. What is easy for some, is hard for others. I may follow 50 players up an alternate jumping puzzle route, seems easy for some, but still seems hard for me, yet I used an unknown exploit.

“10 second email” to whom? So if I send off emails to ANet, an never get a reply that is my defence? That’s not a very good strategy in my opinion. I would rather they tell me exactly what is an exploit so I can avoid it and not have to defend myself against my own ignorance.

Geotherma.2395:

Step 3: Did you keep doing it, knowing that it seemed fishy and unfair?
If yes, prepare for Gailes banhammer.
If no, then good job, wait for that reply.

Again, you’re speaking as though the average player is somehow able to figure this out. If I saw 8-bit chests popping up and wasn’t aware it was an exploit (due to many factors), then of course I would keep doing it. Why wouldn’t I?

I’m not going to stop doing something I don’t believe is wrong. It may seem “fishy” but because my threshold of what constitutes “fishy” is different, I run the risk of misjudging.

ANet should just tell me and eliminate the chance I may have misjudged.

Geotherma.2395:

tldr: KISS:Keep it simple stupid. Rewards are called rewards because they are earned. If it took nothing to earn, or required spamming some button/item/place/thing, it probably is not legit. When in doubt, email it out.

PS: if you have an example of other MMO’s who deal with exploits differently pelase list. Or have ideas that have worked in other MMO’s please list. Otherwise, the franchise, the MMO world, and devs are working as intended.

That statement is a fallacy. It is what everyone is doing, so it’s working as intended is a lazy argument in my opinion. I’m not trying to sound insulting, but that’s the old, “If everyone was jumping off a bridge…” argument.

I’m sure it’s working as intended, but that doesn’t automatically mean it’s working the best it can be.

But I’m seeing more people throwing the flame ball at Arenanet with no backing of suggestions or constructive feedback. Too often do members of the community use forums as a way to attack the game, the devs, other players, or whatever they feel like at the time.

As for the statement that they never reply, where is the proof of this? Is it in threads that say “I got banned for no reason”? because those are about as legit as the guy selling Nikee shoes in the back alley. I understand where you are coming from, but if after all these years no one has come up with a better system maybe this is what they have right now. Will it always be the sole way to deal with things? Probably not. But to assume we have no appeal process, no way of talking to the company about something we feel strongly about, well that just feels wrong. They give us outlets and functions to go about playing the game. We play it under the sole assumption that we won’t get in trouble so long as we try to be good and use commons sense. When common sense fails us we may get a warning, it doesn’t matter what that warning says. Some of the actions you did in area X are against the rules, you should have an idea what was fishy there. And you can almost always overturn a decision if it was made in haste or was done without proper evaluation. I’ve dealt with this personally and it has come back in my favor 3 times. Do I hate arenanet for being strict and infracting or taking action? Definitely not. But i took the offer to appeal, and came out on top. We all make mistakes and the appeal process is there for that exact reason. People need to just know to use is. For everything else fall back on common sense until you are told your common sense was wrong. Then it becomes more than common sense, it becomes fact. Also Google is there for a reason, you can find just about anything there. If someone has done it, there’s a good chance it is online. A little research can go a long way.

Zaxares.5419:

Question. Was anyone ACTUALLY banned for using those unlimited drink bottles in the Personal Story instances? I find it a bit hard to believe that ANet would hand out permabans for that, as the only reward you get is a title; it’s not something that has the ability to catastrophically affect the game’s economy or state. At most, I would expect ANet might hand out a suspension for the most blatant offenders.

Dunno, but when the question was asked on the forums, ANet didn’t say anything other than, “We’re looking into it.”

Then, a few days later it was updated in a patch.

If people were banned (and I suspect one player may have been), then this is exactly why I’m making this post. If ANet would have answered that thread and/or sent and in-game message/email, that player may still be playing today.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

I do find it strange what you guys said about “reporting exploits being a bannable offense”.

That sounds kind of dumb of ANET. Unless you mean “posting exploits on the forums”. In which case… DUH. Don’t post exploits on the forums, because then other players will see the exploits and try to do them.

There was a whole ton of closed threads around the xmas snowflake exploit. Genuines ones asking for answers and clarity on exploits. Even asking for clarity on vague forum rules gets your thread closed.

Of course doing a dungeon isn’t an exploit. Nor is repeating it. Is selling 1 Sharp Claw to the merchant an exploit? No? Is selling 10 Sharp Claws to the merchant an exploit? No? Is selling 100 Sharp Claws to the merchant an exploit? No? Is selling 1000 Sharp Claws to the merchant an exploit? No? Repetition of regular content isn’t an exploit.

The idea that it is an exploit because it makes you “more than any other farming in the game” doesn’t make sense either. Something has to be the best. Being the best doesn’t make it an exploit, it makes it the best. If CoF didn’t exist, then something else would be the best. If that other thing didn’t exist, a different thing would be the best. Being the best isn’t an exploit.

I guess this is where the problem lies. The fact that CoF would openly be considered as an exploit by devs, but it’s lingered too long to punish anyone and everyone that’s run it countless times to farm.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

The problem is that ANet never responds to these. So I might be thinking something is an exploit and stop out of fear, but that doesn’t inform me if my actions are intended or not.

I want to make it extremely clear that I’m not saying this as an insult.

At all.

In any way.

You’re not important.

When you send them an error report, they take it, file it away and research it. In fact, when they get the first report on an exploit, they probably ignore it. And they should! I work for a moderate sized company dealing with computers. When an agent comes back and tells me something isn’t working for him, I assume it’s his fault or that it’s a quick little glitch, or that he’s just using it as an excuse to walk away from his desk.

If I didn’t assume this, I would spend my entire day walking around trying to help agents figure out their problems or reporting things that are likely nothing.

I understand why you want a reply. But they likely won’t give you a reply because they likely aren’t supposed to. I’m sure the guy who checks into the reports is told to file them away, keep track, etc.

It’s up to you to decide if it’s an exploit.

Based on what you (and most people in this thread) have written though, you’re all safe. If you think picking up a lot of baubles from enemies that come out of special chests on April Fool’s Day is an exploit, then I can’t see you doing any actual exploits, as they should be 10 times more obvious than this.

That part was an insult. Or if you’re trolling, I guess it’s a compliment, or a point, or whatever you people use to keep track.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

snip

Buying 10 snowflakes and salvaging them didn’t get people banned, but salvaging hundreds did.

Buying 10 karma weapons for lower than they wanted you to didn’t get people banned, buying hundreds did.

Buying 10 order weapons for lower than they wanted you to didn’t get people banned, buying hundreds did.

Repeating the mystery exploits DOES get people banned. My example works perfectly because of this. This was content that they put in the game, just like CoF. Doing it too much…. ban worthy?

People still don’t know if buying green karma weapons and mystic forging them for profit is bannable or not. They don’t say one way or another. Maybe there will be a ban wave for that soon too. There is literally no way to know.

Geotherma.2395:

But I’m seeing more people throwing the flame ball at Arenanet with no backing of suggestions or constructive feedback. Too often do members of the community use forums as a way to attack the game, the devs, other players, or whatever they feel like at the time.

I’m not throwing the flame ball at ANet. In fact I’m offering a suggestion that would actually make them look way more fair.

People attack ANet because they feel they have been unfairly treated. They’re banned without warning and become mad and frustrated at the lack of transparency. This is to be expected and those who see these posts and how vague ANet is in them, it just makes ANet look like jerks.

Geotherma.2395:

As for the statement that they never reply, where is the proof of this?

Because when I started first playing this game I found what may have been a potential exploit. I stopped, and never did it again after emailing ANet. To this day I still have no idea if I was right, or if I’m screwing myself.

Geotherma.2395:

Is it in threads that say “I got banned for no reason”? because those are about as legit as the guy selling Nikee shoes in the back alley. I understand where you are coming from, but if after all these years no one has come up with a better system maybe this is what they have right now. Will it always be the sole way to deal with things? Probably not. But to assume we have no appeal process, no way of talking to the company about something we feel strongly about, well that just feels wrong. They give us outlets and functions to go about playing the game. We play it under the sole assumption that we won’t get in trouble so long as we try to be good and use commons sense. When common sense fails us we may get a warning, it doesn’t matter what that warning says. Some of the actions you did in area X are against the rules, you should have an idea what was fishy there. And you can almost always overturn a decision if it was made in haste or was done without proper evaluation. I’ve dealt with this personally and it has come back in my favor 3 times. Do I hate arenanet for being strict and infracting or taking action? Definitely not. But i took the offer to appeal, and came out on top. We all make mistakes and the appeal process is there for that exact reason. People need to just know to use is. For everything else fall back on common sense until you are told your common sense was wrong. Then it becomes more than common sense, it becomes fact. Also Google is there for a reason, you can find just about anything there. If someone has done it, there’s a good chance it is online. A little research can go a long way.

This is a large wall of text…sorry if I miss something.

I will say this though. Discussions like this are an attempt to come up with a better system. As someone pointed out above, game companies have to accept that exploits happen, and own them.

If ANet wants to quietly fix exploits so they don’t look incompetent, then that’s fine, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t keep everyone in the dark about what exploits exist, then ban them when they didn’t recognize one.

That’s unfair in my opinion

Geotherma.2395:

But I’m seeing more people throwing the flame ball at Arenanet with no backing of suggestions or constructive feedback.

Indeed, but I also see ton’s of people throwing the blame ball at players for being opportunistic, greedy so-and-so’s, and forgetting that there are two sides to an exploit. Devs CAN create errors in game, by accident… (even though a decent QA team should be able to pick these out and relay this back to devs) but players WILL take advantage of said errors in game.

Geikamir.6329:

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

snip

Buying 10 snowflakes and salvaging them didn’t get people banned, but salvaging hundreds did.

Buying 10 karma weapons for lower than they wanted you to didn’t get people banned, buying hundreds did.

Buying 10 order weapons for lower than they wanted you to didn’t get people banned, buying hundreds did.

Repeating the mystery exploits DOES get people banned. My example works perfectly because of this. This was content that they put in the game, just like CoF. Doing it too much…. ban worthy?

Oh. I didn’t realize that CoF gives more tokens than the other dungeons. Or is it more coins? Or is it more XP? None of the above? Right. It just takes less time.

The snowflakes gave infinitely repeatable money without using/abusing the trading post. Just like all the other crafting recipes right? No? Oh.

Those karma weapons were priced on a scale comparable to all of the other karma content right? No? Oh.

Those order weapons were priced on a scale comparable to all of the other karma content right? No? Oh.

You’re right. Your example works perfectly as an example for how little sense most of the examples are in this thread. That was what you meant when you said “your example works perfectly” right?

Sorry. I’m frustrated now.

In my opinion, true exploits are bugs that players pick up and abuse for personal gain. They know what they are doing so they deserve the ban.

But there are also things that can happen in other parts of the game that are not necessarily bugs.
For example: The quest/process expects steps X, Y and Z. In that order. It was tested as such and passed the test. But a player (by chance perhaps) fails at step Y and because of this has to start again at X. But, step X takes 15 minutes to complete and has a certain reward associated to completing it… lets say, 30s plus drops, for example. Hmmm, this is not a bug in the truest sense of the term, it’s a different process flow which may not have been picked up by the testers. And, doing it will nett you just about as much as CoF P1… So you’re not magically going to get super-rich by doing this for a few hours.

The problem here, and reason why I agree with OP, is that you are not even allowed to talk about something like this on the official forums. It’s not always as black and white like the candy machine example. And this, I think, is the concern.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

The problem is that ANet never responds to these. So I might be thinking something is an exploit and stop out of fear, but that doesn’t inform me if my actions are intended or not.

I want to make it extremely clear that I’m not saying this as an insult.

At all.

In any way.

You’re not important.

When you send them an error report, they take it, file it away and research it. In fact, when they get the first report on an exploit, they probably ignore it. And they should! I work for a moderate sized company dealing with computers. When an agent comes back and tells me something isn’t working for him, I assume it’s his fault or that it’s a quick little glitch, or that he’s just using it as an excuse to walk away from his desk.

If I didn’t assume this, I would spend my entire day walking around trying to help agents figure out their problems or reporting things that are likely nothing.

I understand why you want a reply. But they likely won’t give you a reply because they likely aren’t supposed to. I’m sure the guy who checks into the reports is told to file them away, keep track, etc.

It’s up to you to decide if it’s an exploit.

Based on what you (and most people in this thread) have written though, you’re all safe. If you think picking up a lot of baubles from enemies that come out of special chests on April Fool’s Day is an exploit, then I can’t see you doing any actual exploits, as they should be 10 times more obvious than this.

That part was an insult. Or if you’re trolling, I guess it’s a compliment, or a point, or whatever you people use to keep track.

The problem is that it’s not up to me what is considered an exploit. If it was, I would probably try doing crazy stuff all the time in the game to gain some kind of advantage.

But, because ANet decides in private what is and isn’t an exploit, and then hands out bans based on their private criteria, then I have to guess what ANet is thinking.

That is why my suggestion here is that ANet simply pop up a message on login when an exploit has been discovered. We should all continue to report them, but the second ANet discovers it exists, they should inform everyone.

This would take less time than

- sifting through continued exploit submissions
- deleting forum posts asking about the potential exploit
- banning people who knowingly or unknowingly use potential exploit
- create support tickets for perceived unfair account termination
- eliminate the need to work through each person and determine if their actions justify a ban

Geikamir.6329:

People still don’t know if buying green karma weapons and mystic forging them for profit is bannable or not. They don’t say one way or another. Maybe there will be a ban wave for that soon too. There is literally no way to know.

The answer is no. You will not be banned for it.

Enjoy the mystic forge.

*In case you want my math, here you go…

Mystic Forge = Used To Combine Stuff To Make Better Stuff
Karma = Used To Buy Cool Stuff To Reward You For Doing Other Stuff

You take karma and spend it to buy gear. You take gear and turn it into other gear. Take that gear and turn it into money. Sounds legit. If you turned that gear into more karma than you started with, that would be an exploit for sure.

You know what might be an exploit? Buying Orian boxes and using max karma boost while eating the karma out of it. I’ve heard some people came out with more karma than they started with (plus money). So if that’s consistant, I could see issues. Doesn’t sound consistant, so it’s likely not an issue. But if I had to pick something based on karma, that would be it.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Geikamir.6329:

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

snip

Buying 10 snowflakes and salvaging them didn’t get people banned, but salvaging hundreds did.

Buying 10 karma weapons for lower than they wanted you to didn’t get people banned, buying hundreds did.

Buying 10 order weapons for lower than they wanted you to didn’t get people banned, buying hundreds did.

Repeating the mystery exploits DOES get people banned. My example works perfectly because of this. This was content that they put in the game, just like CoF. Doing it too much…. ban worthy?

Oh. I didn’t realize that CoF gives more tokens than the other dungeons. Or is it more coins? Or is it more XP? None of the above? Right. It just takes less time.

The snowflakes gave infinitely repeatable money without using/abusing the trading post. Just like all the other crafting recipes right? No? Oh.

Those karma weapons were priced on a scale comparable to all of the other karma content right? No? Oh.

Those order weapons were priced on a scale comparable to all of the other karma content right? No? Oh.

You’re right. Your example works perfectly as an example for how little sense most of the examples are in this thread. That was what you meant when you said “your example works perfectly” right?

Sorry. I’m frustrated now.

CoF can be completed faster and easier. So yes, it gives more tokens than and money than other dungeons per hour. Mostly likely bugged that players are exploiting.

Snowflakes giving limitless wealth? Flipping items on the AH provides limitless wealth, too. Exploit?

According to which karma items you are referring to. There are loads of other karma items in the game for a lower price than that. There are even different tiers of cultural items.

The order items weren’t for karma, and YES they were on scale with each other. They were ALL at the same value. People asked if it was an exploit to buy them, no response for weeks. Then the perma-bans started raining down.

The examples aren’t making sense because you likely don’t understand them.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

You know what might be an exploit? Buying Orian boxes and using max karma boost while eating the karma out of it. I’ve heard some people came out with more karma than they started with (plus money). So if that’s consistant, I could see issues. Doesn’t sound consistant, so it’s likely not an issue. But if I had to pick something based on karma, that would be it.

I believe there was a red post about this not being an exploit (memory is a fickle thing). Probably because the karma boosts don’t all stack (or their is a stat ceiling).. So far I’ve been very unsuccessful at getting all my karma back.

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

In my opinion, true exploits are bugs that players pick up and abuse for personal gain. They know what they are doing so they deserve the ban.

But there are also things that can happen in other parts of the game that are not necessarily bugs.
For example: The quest/process expects steps X, Y and Z. In that order. It was tested as such and passed the test. But a player (by chance perhaps) fails at step Y and because of this has to start again at X. But, step X takes 15 minutes to complete and has a certain reward associated to completing it… lets say, 30s plus drops, for example. Hmmm, this is not a bug in the truest sense of the term, it’s a different process flow which may not have been picked up by the testers. And, doing it will nett you just about as much as CoF P1… So you’re not magically going to get super-rich by doing this for a few hours.

The problem here, and reason why I agree with OP, is that you are not even allowed to talk about something like this on the official forums. It’s not always as black and white like the candy machine example. And this, I think, is the concern.

But you can ask other players. You have plenty of choices to try before every having to send that email.

Players
Guild
Google.
Wiki

It isn’t always black and white you’re right. But grey areas often remain grey areas until someone of superiority says that grey is now black. When they do so if you continue, you do so at your own risk. Taking players threads on “Banned no reason” at face value, can only lead to improper information gathering on what the true story is. There is always 2 sides to every story, sometimes party A likes to make party B look like the bad guy to get support. Support that isn’t always deserved.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

That is why my suggestion here is that ANet simply pop up a message on login when an exploit has been discovered. We should all continue to report them, but the second ANet discovers it exists, they should inform everyone.

Just to clarify, I want you to know that I agree with you. This is likely one of the best solutions.

I just don’t blame the company for the way they are doing it, because in my opinion they are handling it like a company would/should.

And I’m not going to re-quote the rest of you, but something that keeps getting repeated needs a response…

You should not be posting exploits on the forums! I understand why you think it’s bad that they lock these. But you can’t go around telling other people how to do exploits, that is bad. That is why they lock these. Report it in game. Send them personal emails. Just don’t report it in game.

Also, I understand they made mistakes in the past. And they changed the rules to make attempts at fixing them.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Geikamir.6329:

People still don’t know if buying green karma weapons and mystic forging them for profit is bannable or not. They don’t say one way or another. Maybe there will be a ban wave for that soon too. There is literally no way to know.

The answer is no. You will not be banned for it.

Enjoy the mystic forge.

*In case you want my math, here you go…

Mystic Forge = Used To Combine Stuff To Make Better Stuff
Karma = Used To Buy Cool Stuff To Reward You For Doing Other Stuff

You take karma and spend it to buy gear. You take gear and turn it into other gear. Take that gear and turn it into money. Sounds legit. If you turned that gear into more karma than you started with, that would be an exploit for sure.

You know what might be an exploit? Buying Orian boxes and using max karma boost while eating the karma out of it. I’ve heard some people came out with more karma than they started with (plus money). So if that’s consistant, I could see issues. Doesn’t sound consistant, so it’s likely not an issue. But if I had to pick something based on karma, that would be it.

Making Godskull weapons and putting them in the forge was previously an exploit. You put them in and there was a chance to get an exotic out of it. Did you know that?

Buying karma ingredients for cooking, making then selling those items was an exploit. Did you know that?

Buying salvage kits for karma from merchants was an exploit, too.

There are probably hundreds of other examples that weren’t as publicized that existed too. Any threads brought up get deleted. The post that was linked earlier in this thread is a good example. What did that guy do to get banned? What if there are other players doing it? How am I supposed to know if I’m doing it?

well as a long time player of Anet mmos i do take exception of how pervasive the bans have become. if you read other non Anet forums its filled with people complaining about this. when there are to few bans people exploit and the game becomes unruly and people complain. to many people banned and it creates a huge negative perception of the game and Anet. Anet needs to make money and if the word of mouth negativity gets much worse it will kill this game. And i will be sad

For me, the fact some of you guys disagree on how things are intended to work in this thread (mystic forge, snowflakes, etc) is exactly why I’m purposing this change.

If left up to us, each of us will have a slightly different opinion on how something is intended to function. We all have different levels of experience playing this and similar games which can bias our conclusions.

Because we all have to dance around these questions so we can ask the question, without really asking the question, we are put in a situation where we are all forced to interpret what others are saying, and avoid using clear and concise questions and answers.

I should have the freedom to ask, “I did X, and the result was Y, is this an exploit?” without risk of being banned.

If ANet then came and said, “Yes crazylegsmurphy, that is an exploit, thanks for pointing it out.” Then myself and others would know.

Ten minutes later all players currently in the game (and those who log in afterwards) receive a message that says:

“Exploit Warning!

It has been found that doing X will result in Y happening. This is not working as intended. By clicking “OK” you acknowledge this exploit. Those found using this exploit after clicking “OK” will be found to be in violation of the terms and conditions and will have their accounts permanently terminated.

I understand, and will not use the exploit: OK"
______________

Now…this means anyone beyond that point will be liable for their actions and risk being banned if they partake in the exploit.

So…what happens to the ones who used it already? Also, what about those who try similar things?

First, those who have been found to have used the exploit prior to the warning will need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. This really depends on the exploit and to what degree it appears to have been abused.

Nothing really changes from how it currently works, other than the players know they have been part of an exploit. This gives the player and ANet the opportunity to discuss ways to rectify the situation without banning players.

If I was personally found to have accidentally participated in an exploit (due to the message, or an in-game email warning me of the offence), then I would open a support ticket and ask what I need to do to correct the situation.

Secondly. For those who use these exploits as “how-to manuals”, then they are in violation of the terms of service anyway. It would be pretty easy to see those players who are testing the waters with other exploits.

In the end, the more exploits that are found, the better the game will be. I accept these things exist and that some players have no issues taking full advantage of them. I simply want to have the opportunity to educate myself so I can’t do my best as a player to avoid any issues.

Geikamir.6329:

Again with CoF. If it wasn’t the fastest, another one would be? Would that other one be an exploit? What if that other one wasn’t the fastest, but a different one was? Would that one be an exploit? Being the fastest way of doing something doesn’t automatically make it an exploit. If it was a DRASTIC difference, it would be. If every other dungeon took two hours, but CoF took a few minutes, that would be a problem, but that isn’t the case. There are quite a few dungeons that can be completed in a reasonable amount of time.

Being the best way of doing something doesn’t make it an exploit. When it’s an exploit, it’s pretty obvious. Just like all the things you listed.

Yes. On the TP you can make money by flipping. That’s taking advantage of other players being foolish. It’s not taking advantage of the company or a mistake the company made in pricing something. The problem with the snowflakes is that it was directly related to a recipe being incorrect in the way it functioned.

As for the other two, you’re absolutely right. I don’t know the numbers related. But clearly you do. Please, post the karma requirements for every item in the game that’s relevant, as well as the prices these items were originally listed for.

A big issue that you keep dancing around is this.

If you see something is too good to be true and buy 1000 of them it’s clear you’re trying to exploit.

Why do you need 1000 order items? You’re exploiting. Plain and simple. If you bought one, because you wanted one. Or even a few for each of your characters, that’s cool. But 1000? Really? You actually think you’re justified, or that it might be confused with not being an exploit?

Geikamir.6329:

Making Godskull weapons and putting them in the forge was previously an exploit. You put them in and there was a chance to get an exotic out of it. Did you know that?

Buying karma ingredients for cooking, making then selling those items was an exploit. Did you know that?

Buying salvage kits for karma from merchants was an exploit, too.

There are probably hundreds of other examples that weren’t as publicized that existed too. Any threads brought up get deleted. The post that was linked earlier in this thread is a good example. What did that guy do to get banned? What if there are other players doing it? How am I supposed to know if I’m doing it?

I’m not aware of the Godskull exploit. Please, go ahead and list the exact details.

Yes, karma cooking was an exploit. One which nobody was banned for if I remember correctly. Perhaps the first major exploit within the first few weeks of the game, and the first time ANET gave players warnings that this kind of thing would result in bannings in the future.

And done in repetition, it was an obvious exploit.

I’m not sure about the salvage kits either. Wasn’t aware.

I guess you know about more exploits than me? You win?

I guess I’ll just keep repeating the same thing back to you, just like you’re doing to me.

If you’re doing something over and over and it seems too good to be true, it’s likely an exploit.

You can make all the joke posts you want, about whether or not walking to areas instead of waypointing is an exploit since it saves you money, but it’s not going to change the point of the topic. The majority of the exploits people were banned or warned for were obviously exploits when repeated. And if those players weren’t banned, most would be millionaires in the game right now and laughing at all of us for not using exploits and then crying that they shouldn’t be banned because they didn’t know that doing something 10,000 times over the course of a week was bad.

Rakuren Kenshou.7689:

Geikamir.6329:

Again with CoF. If it wasn’t the fastest, another one would be? Would that other one be an exploit? What if that other one wasn’t the fastest, but a different one was? Would that one be an exploit? Being the fastest way of doing something doesn’t automatically make it an exploit. If it was a DRASTIC difference, it would be. If every other dungeon took two hours, but CoF took a few minutes, that would be a problem, but that isn’t the case. There are quite a few dungeons that can be completed in a reasonable amount of time.

Being the best way of doing something doesn’t make it an exploit. When it’s an exploit, it’s pretty obvious. Just like all the things you listed.

Yes. On the TP you can make money by flipping. That’s taking advantage of other players being foolish. It’s not taking advantage of the company or a mistake the company made in pricing something. The problem with the snowflakes is that it was directly related to a recipe being incorrect in the way it functioned.

As for the other two, you’re absolutely right. I don’t know the numbers related. But clearly you do. Please, post the karma requirements for every item in the game that’s relevant, as well as the prices these items were originally listed for.

A big issue that you keep dancing around is this.

If you see something is too good to be true and buy 1000 of them it’s clear you’re trying to exploit.

Why do you need 1000 order items? You’re exploiting. Plain and simple. If you bought one, because you wanted one. Or even a few for each of your characters, that’s cool. But 1000? Really? You actually think you’re justified, or that it might be confused with not being an exploit?

Idk if running that other dungeon would be an exploit. They won’t tell me, which is the entire point. CoF can be run in 5 minutes. Other dungeons and paths can take more than an hour. Arah has taken me 3 hours before. That’s VERY drastically different.

It’s not my job to know the value of every karma item in the game. It’s theirs. That’s more part of the point. THEY know what they want the game to be like, not me. I am the end user. They give me a product and I use it. They give me a rule and I follow it. I should not be held responsible for their poor designs or decisions. And if they made a mistake, tell me not to do it and I won’t. It’s literally as simple as that.

I’ve bought tens of thousands of items off the TP. Have I used that many? Ofc not. I was trying to make money to buy other, very expensive things. That’s how stuff works. You find ways to make money and use that money to buy things you want. I have bought several hundreds of salvage kits since playing. Am I exploiting the merchant? I am going for the thirst slayer achievement. Vendors have different alcohol options and some give much better return on points for their price than others. Am I exploiting for buying the most efficient? How could I possibly know?

Geotherma.2395:

But you can ask other players. You have plenty of choices to try before every having to send that email.

Players
Guild
Google.
Wiki

It isn’t always black and white you’re right. But grey areas often remain grey areas until someone of superiority says that grey is now black. When they do so if you continue, you do so at your own risk. Taking players threads on “Banned no reason” at face value, can only lead to improper information gathering on what the true story is. There is always 2 sides to every story, sometimes party A likes to make party B look like the bad guy to get support. Support that isn’t always deserved.

It’s against the terms and conditions to advertise an exploit. Asking the question is actually advertising the exploit.

This means that you have to avoid players and guilds because if reported in-game, you could face a ban.

Google and Wiki are options, and I’m not saying third party information isn’t available, but because exploits that are new, can have no information, you run the risk of being in violation.

So, this ultimately leaves it in ANets hands to determine what is and isn’t an exploit. Which is fine, and I totally agree with. The problem is that they only inform the community/players after the exploit has been fixed and bans have been handed out.

So it’s that lag time between when the exploit is found, and the time it’s fixed that is dangerous for all players. I just want them to be honest with me so I can avoid exploits.

8. PROHIBITED AND IRREPARABLY HARMFUL ACTIVITIES CONCERNING NCSOFT

You acknowledge that You may not, without signed written consent from a legally authorized representative of NCSOFT, do any of the following:

Misappropriate, violate or infringe any third-party IP right;
Use any NCSOFT IP right except as permitted under this agreement or otherwise permitted in writing by NCSOFT;
Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game;
Use, or provide others with, any “hack,” “cheat,” “exploit” or “mod”;
Use, or provide others with, any service related to the Game, including but not limited to:
any service that interacts with the Software; or
any service that that would change characteristics related to an Account or Character ID, such as increasing the level of a character (a.k.a. power-leveling);
Engage in any activity prohibited under Section 2(f) above;
Knowingly affect the Service, the Game, Content or Software via any bloatware, malware, computer virus, worm, Trojan horse, spyware, adware, crimeware, scareware, rootkit or any other program installed in a way that executable code of any program is scheduled to utilize or utilizes processor cycles during periods of time when such program is not directly or indirectly being used;
Be a party to any commercial activity related to the Game, including but not limited to:
providing or obtaining any Item; or
use of the Service, the Game, Content or Software at an Internet café, cyber café or computer gaming center;
Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to:
software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;
software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;
software that redirects communications from any Software or Service; or
software not provided by NCSOFT which creates or maintains any communication to the Software or Service, including but not limited to any software that emulates the Software or any part thereof as well as any server that emulates the Service or any part thereof;
Violate any law or governmental regulation related to the Game;
Violate or infringe the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, including but not limited to 17 U.S.C. §1201 et seq., in any way such as circumventing any NCSOFT technological measure intended to effectively control access to the Service, the Game, Content, Software, or any other NCSOFT IP right, circumventing any protection afforded by an NCSOFT technological measure to any NCSOFT IP right, or engaging in any trafficking related to the foregoing;
Institute any arbitration or other proceeding against NCSOFT except as permitted under this agreement, including any legal proceeding in court or before an administrative agency;
Provide anyone whose Account was terminated under Section 3© any access to the Service, the Game, Content or Software; or
Help others violate this agreement.

2 f: Additional License Restrictions — You acknowledge You will not directly or indirectly:

reverse engineer, translate, adapt, disassemble, decompile, or reduce to any human-perceivable form, any Software or parts thereof;
copy, distribute or reproduce any Service, Content, Software, or parts thereof;
modify, or create a derivative work of or based on, any Service, Content, Software, or parts thereof; and/or
sell, sub-license, rent, lease, grant a security interest in, borrow, lend, loan, network or engage in any activity that could in any way transfer or provide others access to any Service, Content, Software, or parts thereof, including but not limited to any serial code number, access key or the like.

Krosslite.1950:

8. PROHIBITED AND IRREPARABLY HARMFUL ACTIVITIES CONCERNING NCSOFT…

Yes, they used the term “exploit” in the legal talk. That doesn’t however answer the question of what is and isn’t an exploit in all cases.

No one is questioning the validity of banning people for using exploits. I think people should be banned for using exploits. I just want ANet to tell me WHAT the exploits are, so I can avoid them.

I don’t want my account banned. I like playing the game. I want to be able to log in and play the game without fear that if I do something in the game, I could face a permanent ban.

The best way to do this is make sure I understand what I should and shouldn’t be doing. The best way to do that, is to be open and honest with me about what is considered an exploit.

I’m not looking for a “how to cheat at Guild Wars 2” manual. I’m not looking for instructions on how to find more exploits. I’m looking for a way to avoid them BEFORE I find them and BEFORE I get banned.

In order for the OP’s analogy to be complete and apt in this situation, you would have to include a sign on the front of the machine that read something like “If this machine malfunctions and you continually and egregiousness take advantage of it for your personal gain, then you will be in violation of store policy and subject to a lifetime ban.”

In other words, players have been warned. It isnt hard to understand what is and isnt an exploit – and to understand the negative impact those exploits can have on the game and population as a whole. If it feels like something that is circumventing game design or providing an unfair advantage, then simply stop doing it. The instances that Ive heard about where people were banned all had one thing in common – the exploits were clearly things that people should have known they werent supposed to be doing.

The penalties are there to protect the players who do not exploit. Kudos to Anet for taking a strong stand on this.

http://www.simpsoncrazy.com/lists/blackboard

The previous link got kittened for openings . html.

Blaeys.3102:

In other words, players have been warned. It isnt hard to understand what is and isnt an exploit – and to understand the negative impact those exploits can have on the game and population as a whole.

Often it isn’t obvious or easy to understand as the end user. Which is the entire point of the thread. It’s not the players role to understand and avoid negative impacts on the game. It’s the developers. And if they feel something does that, they need to tell us so we know not to do it.

The initial OP’s example is all sorts of fraud. When you found that candy machine, put in a quarter, and got 3 pounds of candy, you didn’t get escorted out by security and banned. You got escorted out after raiding all the candy machines in the mall, and taking 3000 pounds of candy for $250.

If something seems to be a bug, encountering it once won’t get you banned. Doing it a thousand times will.

ANET has a reputation of not admitting to their own mistake/weakness, instead they punish player for their own mistake. you cant deny that.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Imagine for a moment, that you’re shopping and come across a newly installed candy machine. You dig into your pockets and find a quarter which you promptly place in the coin slot. You turn the handle, and the delicious candy starts to flow from the spout.

Red ones, green ones, yellow ones…your hands start to fill up with all the wonderful colors and your mouth starts to water. After a few seconds, you start to think, “Wow, this is a great value!”

You place the fists full of candy into your pocket, and walk away with a giant grin on your face.

A few moments later two security guards grab you and escort you to the door. They explain that you didn’t use the candy machine as intended, and because you took more candy than you should have, you are now banned from the mall for life.

Is this fair?

I have always had a huge problem with the way ArenaNet handles exploits. First, their policy is that even asking if something is an exploit is forbidden and can result in being banned. Second, if you happen to participate in an exploit, you risk having your account suspended, regardless if you knew it was an exploit or not.

The flaw in this logic is that it creates a situation in which gamers are required to guess the intended functionality or outcome. In a game where thousands of different things can happen (and is known to contain bugs), it seems like a lot to ask for players to guess which parts are working as intended and which are not. Additionally, many players bring their experiences with other games to Guild Wars 2, which may give them different expectations or understanding.

This creates a situation in which players risk losing access to the game, for something they may not even be aware is considered wrong. Those who seek more information, are told not to discuss these things, but to simply stop doing what those doing (to be on the safe side), and report what they feel may be an exploit.

The problem is that because ANet doesn’t discuss exploits, allow us to question them publicly, provide feedback to exploit reports, or warn players, it means that players risk account termination, and makes ANet look like unsympathetic bullies.

I personally feel the best solution is for ANet to start being transparent about what is, and isn’t considered an exploit. For example, it was recently discovered that players could gain the drinking achievement by using “magic bottles” found in some places around the world. A thread was started asking if this was an exploit, and ANet replied with, “We’re looking into it.”

Eventually it was patched, but what happened to those who either didn’t see the forum post, or didn’t consider it an exploit, yet now face account termination?

If ANet would allow players to inquire about potential exploits, without fear of being banned, then players could quickly find out what they should and shouldn’t be doing. From there, ANet should release in-game, and out-game messages, warning players of the exploit, and any caught using it risk having their account terminated.

This would allow players to avoid exploits they may have been unaware of, and give ANet a much more solid case for terminations.

Players shouldn’t feel scared to play the game. They also shouldn’t be permanently punished for something they may have been unaware they were even doing. Allow players to voice concerns, and address them openly and honestly. Most players, if given adequate warning will avoid these things, and create a much nicer gaming experience for all.

In the situation you have described, I would have maybe taken an extra 1 maybe even 2 candies. But if the whole machine poured out for me, I would have probably warned the associated person or left it alone.

Difference between an honest or greedy exploiting player. Anet won’t ban you because you accidentally ran into an exploit but didn’t abuse it vigorously. But they will ban you if they know you know and continued to do so for your own benefit.

A better scenario is if the ATM machine started raining money out of it because of a malfunction, would you take the money?

Exploiter answers they took the money. The next day, he realizes it was all caught on the security camera and he gets jail time.

Anet couldn’t tell you what is or what is not an exploit because they don’t know it either. If they knew it, they would have fixed it in the first place. They couldn’t give a warning either. If they could, they might as well temporary disable it first. Also, by attaching warnings to exploits would mean that exploits without warnings are allowed.

Really normal people would have no difficulty seeing an exploit. If something is too good to be true, it probably is. Also Anet never banned anyone for using an exploit a few times. They only those who seriously abuse it.

There is almost no danger of people getting banned from normal play. Say, the unlimited drink bundle. No sane people will just stand there and take drink after drink if not for the purpose of completing their thirst slayer. However, the person may consider it a minor offense and choose to take the chance. Thats the risk they choose to take not that they didn’t know something is not right. Say, the snowflake exploit, the people who did it numerous times obviously know it is an exploit. Why else would hurriedly do it do many times except to get it in before it is disabled.

Really, it just take a bit of common sense. Although i admit common sense is a rare talent nowadays and greed easily errodes it as well.

bcd.4352:

The initial OP’s example is all sorts of fraud. When you found that candy machine, put in a quarter, and got 3 pounds of candy, you didn’t get escorted out by security and banned. You got escorted out after raiding all the candy machines in the mall, and taking 3000 pounds of candy for $250.

If something seems to be a bug, encountering it once won’t get you banned. Doing it a thousand times will.

I’m not sure you understand the analogy.

Let me try to clear a few things up with it.

First, I was trying to explain that as someone who is simply trying to get candy, you have no reason to believe or assume that the machine isn’t working as intended. There is nothing to indicate that the company running the machine isn’t simply offering a great value for money.

The ONLY way the average person would even consider the machine to be broken, would be if they had previous experiences to go from. Think about how different it would be for a child putting a quarter in. Would they know the difference between a broken machine, and just an awesome amount of candy?

The problem is that many of you approach this situation as gamers. You more than likely have previous game, or MMO experience that lets you better determine what is, and isn’t an exploit.

Some of you even come from a background where you have played Guild Wars 1, and have been a part of this game since beta. You have to understand that not everyone falls into that category.

The point I was trying to make with the candy machine is that if you are faced with something new, and you have limited experience with similar situations, you wouldn’t be as likely to question something.

For me, Guild Wars 2 is the same. What we are seeing is that players are having their accounts permanently deleted after being accused of using an exploit. It’s very easy to brush off the complaints by saying, “Oh, that person knew what they were doing.” or, “That person didn’t have any common sense!”

The problem is that you’re making huge assumptions based on no information. What’s to say that player genuinely wasn’t aware of what they were doing because to them, there was no reason to believe what they were doing was wrong.

There are people who, given the chance will recognize and take advantage of a situation. There are those who have enough experience to be able to manipulate the candy machine in a way that gives them the most candy for money. Those people aren’t the people I’m talking about here.

I’m not talking about the “criminals” who actively seek exploits. I’m talking about the average player who doesn’t have the experience to understand what is, and isn’t considered an exploit by ANets secret standards, yet gets banned for doing it.

My solution is meant to educate everyone. Those who seek out exploits are given the same warning as those who don’t. The consequences for violating the warning is the same for everyone. Account Deletion.

It’s fair, it’s open, and it’s honest.

So, if the company puts a sign on the candy machine saying, “This machine is out of order, anyone caught using it will be banned from the mall” then the customers can make informed choices. If they then choose to make a bad choice, then they better find another mall.

Lafiel.9372:

In the situation you have described, I would have maybe taken an extra 1 maybe even 2 candies. But if the whole machine poured out for me, I would have probably warned the associated person or left it alone.

Difference between an honest or greedy exploiting player. Anet won’t ban you because you accidentally ran into an exploit but didn’t abuse it vigorously. But they will ban you if they know you know and continued to do so for your own benefit.

A better scenario is if the ATM machine started raining money out of it because of a malfunction, would you take the money?

Exploiter answers they took the money. The next day, he realizes it was all caught on the security camera and he gets jail time.

Sorry, but you are exaggerating the analogy to fit your argument.

I never said the candy machine started pouring out endless amounts of candy. I described a situation in which you were given more candy than you perhaps expected.

I was trying to paint a picture where you are getting more than intended, but not enough to make it a clear “exploit”. You may just think it’s a great candy machine that has been tweaked to offer more candy than the competitor.

As I said above, the only reason you would have to believe it was malfunctioning was if you had experience with how the average candy machine works.

The ATM example doesn’t work at all. The reason is that you are explicitly requesting a certain amount, and to get more than you have, is a clear mistake. This doesn’t apply the same to a game in which random chance, and “magic” happens all the time.

Geikamir.6329:

ProphetSword.5427:

I will say the same thing that I always say when these threads pop up. There’s this thing that comes with the game called the EULA. You click on it and agree to its terms when you first run the game.

According to that EULA, you agree not to exploit. And, you agree that your account can be terminated/banned at any time without notice for violation of the rules. That is your warning. It was given when you read the EULA (you read it, right?)

You can moan about it all you want, but you agreed to those terms. It’s a done deal. Don’t exploit.

I don’t think you’ve read this thread.

I completely with the OP. Not telling citizens the law and then punishing them based off of these mysterious hidden rules is inherently unfair. Just saying “Don’t commit crimes!” doesn’t count. What exactly are the crimes I shouldn’t commit?

Except that’s how the law works in real life. If you aren’t a lawyer you don’t necessarily know the law, and you can get caught out. And ignorance of the law is no excuse. It happens all the time.

I’m starting to see where you’re coming from, Crazy, and I’ll concede that it could actually be useful. However, I wouldn’t provide details of how the exploit actually worked. In your scenario, if I was ANet I would instead make an announcement that:

“An exploit has been discovered that allows people to dupe items/get free ectos/insta-kill a dungeon boss etc. A hotfix will be issued tomorrow to fix it. If you are aware of how the exploit works, DO NOT USE IT as it will result in your account being banned.”

This is because if you publish the details of how the exploit works, there WILL be people who will go and try it out anyway, either because they’re getting bored of the game and don’t care if they get banned, or they think that they’re somehow special and that the rules won’t apply to them if they try it “just once”. This could have deletorious effects on the game’s economy, plus it creates additional work for support staff who have to fix the mess and deal with people who try to contest their banning (see above).

FateOmega.9601:

Anet couldn’t tell you what is or what is not an exploit because they don’t know it either. If they knew it, they would have fixed it in the first place. They couldn’t give a warning either. If they could, they might as well temporary disable it first. Also, by attaching warnings to exploits would mean that exploits without warnings are allowed.

Really normal people would have no difficulty seeing an exploit. If something is too good to be true, it probably is. Also Anet never banned anyone for using an exploit a few times. They only those who seriously abuse it.

There is almost no danger of people getting banned from normal play. Say, the unlimited drink bundle. No sane people will just stand there and take drink after drink if not for the purpose of completing their thirst slayer. However, the person may consider it a minor offense and choose to take the chance. Thats the risk they choose to take not that they didn’t know something is not right. Say, the snowflake exploit, the people who did it numerous times obviously know it is an exploit. Why else would hurriedly do it do many times except to get it in before it is disabled.

Really, it just take a bit of common sense. Although i admit common sense is a rare talent nowadays and greed easily errodes it as well.

I’m sorry, but there are a lot of fallacious arguments in your post.

To quickly address them.

1. Just because ANet gives warning of specific exploits doesn’t mean all others found are not exploits.

The terms and conditions still stand in terms of exploits. My solution would just mean that as exploits were discovered and confirmed, the community would be informed to eliminate any further questioning or confusion.

This argument is a bit of a slippery slope.

2. “Normal” people as you call them don’t exist. You’re creating an argument that assumes that anyone who is unclear whether something is an exploit or not, was just too dumb to see it.

You have to consider a lot of factors when making those claims. Not everyone has the experience, understanding, reasoning skills, or care to know the difference. Dismissing a players confusion because you think they’re too dumb, is unfair and unfounded.

3. To use the drink exploit as an example. No sane person would assume it was an exploit considering there are many things in that game that behave inconstantly. What about endless tonics, or spawning vets. Unless you have the understanding and experience to know that seems out of place in the game, you run the risk of being banned.

You’re again making assumptions based on your own bias. Approach it from a position where you don’t have previous experience.

Let me just quickly give an example.

In Super Mario 1, there was a point in the game where if you jumped on a turtle, you could continue gaining extra lives until the game basically started displaying icons for lives.

Because Nintendo games were some of the first games many of us had ever played, we had no reason to believe that this was an exploit. The fact that it showed icons for lives seemed to even indicate that it was intended.

Eventually it became a well known “trick” in the game that most people used. Today, we may view it differently and Nintendo may consider it an exploit, but none of us did. We all just thought we found a cool trick in the game and used it to work our way though. In fact, in those old games it was actually common practice to find glitches and such to win games (think of the warp in Mario 1).

Guild Wars today is the same, just on a much bigger scale. There are instances in which players, without experience with MMO’s in general, or Guild Wars 2, may come across situations that on the surface just look like another one of Tyria’s crazy features.

To ban those people without warning is unfair. Educating the player, and warning them to stay away is a much more fair, and proactive solution.

Zaxares.5419:

I’m starting to see where you’re coming from, Crazy, and I’ll concede that it could actually be useful. However, I wouldn’t provide details of how the exploit actually worked. In your scenario, if I was ANet I would instead make an announcement that:

“An exploit has been discovered that allows people to dupe items/get free ectos/insta-kill a dungeon boss etc. A hotfix will be issued tomorrow to fix it. If you are aware of how the exploit works, DO NOT USE IT as it will result in your account being banned.”

This is because if you publish the details of how the exploit works, there WILL be people who will go and try it out anyway, either because they’re getting bored of the game and don’t care if they get banned, or they think that they’re somehow special and that the rules won’t apply to them if they try it “just once”. This could have deletorious effects on the game’s economy, plus it creates additional work for support staff who have to fix the mess and deal with people who try to contest their banning (see above).

Fair enough!

At least that would be enough information to allow the average player to avoid any actions that could be attached to that.

Some education is better than no education. I just want to have the ability to get information before I do something wrong.

As the poster above said, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” but this isn’t about being ignorant of the law. If the law isn’t written other than vagueness, then you can’t be ignorant of it.

It’s like the example put so well above. You can’t build a road, give no laws regarding which direction to drive, then ticket anyone who chose the wrong direction. If the law is clear about the direction, and people violate that, then they deserve a ticket.

There are a couple of problems with what’s being said here.

First in a single player game of any kind, exploits are meaningless. Cheat codes are meaningless. The stuff Anet really cares about is stuff that affects the in game economy which affects everyone. If you do something to get infinite lives in Mario Brothers, no one cares. If you have a mod in Skyrim that makes you invulnerable, no one cares. If you do that in SPVP, some is going to care.

More importantly, before Anet can tell you that an exploit exists, someone has to find and use it, and by the time Anet even finds out about it, it could be hours, or even days. Exploit warnings don’t pop up on their monitors. People don’t talk about it in normal forum chat, as you’ve already said. So what if Anet finds the problem after the horse is already out of the barn.

If people think they won’t be punished until Anet posts the exploit, and they think they can get away with it, you might be able to close the barn door but the horse is likely to already be gone.

Anet closes down exploits as fast as it can once they’re found. But without the deterrent, people who might stop and think and not use an exploit, might well feel they’ll be able to get away with it before a warning is published.

Vayne.8563:

Geikamir.6329:

ProphetSword.5427:

I will say the same thing that I always say when these threads pop up. There’s this thing that comes with the game called the EULA. You click on it and agree to its terms when you first run the game.

According to that EULA, you agree not to exploit. And, you agree that your account can be terminated/banned at any time without notice for violation of the rules. That is your warning. It was given when you read the EULA (you read it, right?)

You can moan about it all you want, but you agreed to those terms. It’s a done deal. Don’t exploit.

I don’t think you’ve read this thread.

I completely with the OP. Not telling citizens the law and then punishing them based off of these mysterious hidden rules is inherently unfair. Just saying “Don’t commit crimes!” doesn’t count. What exactly are the crimes I shouldn’t commit?

Except that’s how the law works in real life. If you aren’t a lawyer you don’t necessarily know the law, and you can get caught out. And ignorance of the law is no excuse. It happens all the time.

No, that’s not how the law works. Laws are written down. They are official and what can and can’t be done is available for anyone who is interested to see. The OP is asking for that exact type of clarity with in-game exploits. This isn’t about pleading innocence, it’s about not even being able to know.

Geikamir.6329:

Vayne.8563:

Geikamir.6329:

ProphetSword.5427:

I will say the same thing that I always say when these threads pop up. There’s this thing that comes with the game called the EULA. You click on it and agree to its terms when you first run the game.

According to that EULA, you agree not to exploit. And, you agree that your account can be terminated/banned at any time without notice for violation of the rules. That is your warning. It was given when you read the EULA (you read it, right?)

You can moan about it all you want, but you agreed to those terms. It’s a done deal. Don’t exploit.

I don’t think you’ve read this thread.

I completely with the OP. Not telling citizens the law and then punishing them based off of these mysterious hidden rules is inherently unfair. Just saying “Don’t commit crimes!” doesn’t count. What exactly are the crimes I shouldn’t commit?

Except that’s how the law works in real life. If you aren’t a lawyer you don’t necessarily know the law, and you can get caught out. And ignorance of the law is no excuse. It happens all the time.

No, that’s not how the law works. Laws are written down. They are official and what can and can’t be done is available for anyone who is interested to see. The OP is asking for that exact type of clarity with in-game exploits. This isn’t about pleading innocence, it’s about not even being able to know.

Laws are written down and subject to constant ammendment and annotation. No laymen can expect to follow, know or understand law. It’s just not possible. That’s why lawyers can charge so much money.

Recently in a case in Australia, someone who used to get workers comp for an injury sustained on the job, suddenly stopped getting paid because of a reinterpretation of an existing law. The law hadn’t changed at all but a new ruling based on that law was handed down by a judge that changed how the law was perceived.

So even though the government agency admitted the person was injured at work and remained injured, they could get out of paying, since the way the decision was worded, if a person is denied a benefit, transfer or promotion they are simply not eligble for that type of compensation. The name of the case was Hart vs. Comcare, if you care to look it up.

The person who stopped being paid (it was a bunch of people actually but I know only one person it happened to personally) had to go to court and fight for their right to compensation. The problem is there were too many legal issues, too many loopholes, too many issues for that person to understand by themselves.

The law is written down. Have you ever looked at or read it? Do you even have that kind of time? For all practical purposes, the law is obscure except in the most commonly held notions. Things like murder and stealing are bad. Assault is bad. But what constitutes crimes in one state can be completely different when you’re in another state, never mind how they vary from country to country.

Anyone who says the law is clear because it’s written down doesn’t know much about law.

Vayne.8563:

Geikamir.6329:

Vayne.8563:

Geikamir.6329:

ProphetSword.5427:

I will say the same thing that I always say when these threads pop up. There’s this thing that comes with the game called the EULA. You click on it and agree to its terms when you first run the game.

According to that EULA, you agree not to exploit. And, you agree that your account can be terminated/banned at any time without notice for violation of the rules. That is your warning. It was given when you read the EULA (you read it, right?)

You can moan about it all you want, but you agreed to those terms. It’s a done deal. Don’t exploit.

I don’t think you’ve read this thread.

I completely with the OP. Not telling citizens the law and then punishing them based off of these mysterious hidden rules is inherently unfair. Just saying “Don’t commit crimes!” doesn’t count. What exactly are the crimes I shouldn’t commit?

Except that’s how the law works in real life. If you aren’t a lawyer you don’t necessarily know the law, and you can get caught out. And ignorance of the law is no excuse. It happens all the time.

No, that’s not how the law works. Laws are written down. They are official and what can and can’t be done is available for anyone who is interested to see. The OP is asking for that exact type of clarity with in-game exploits. This isn’t about pleading innocence, it’s about not even being able to know.

Laws are written down and subject to constant ammendment and annotation. No laymen can expect to follow, know or understand law. It’s just not possible. That’s why lawyers can charge so much money.

Recently in a case in Australia, someone who used to get workers comp for an injury sustained on the job, suddenly stopped getting paid because of a reinterpretation of an existing law. The law hadn’t changed at all but a new ruling based on that law was handed down by a judge that changed how the law was perceived.

So even though the government agency admitted the person was injured at work and remained injured, they could get out of paying, since the way the decision was worded, if a person is denied a benefit, transfer or promotion they are simply not eligble for that type of compensation. The name of the case was Hart vs. Comcare, if you care to look it up.

The person who stopped being paid (it was a bunch of people actually but I know only one person it happened to personally) had to go to court and fight for their right to compensation. The problem is there were too many legal issues, too many loopholes, too many issues for that person to understand by themselves.

The law is written down. Have you ever looked at or read it? Do you even have that kind of time? For all practical purposes, the law is obscure except in the most commonly held notions. Things like murder and stealing are bad. Assault is bad. But what constitutes crimes in one state can be completely different when you’re in another state, never mind how they vary from country to country.

Anyone who says the law is clear because it’s written down doesn’t know much about law.

Would you be willing to explicitly explain the exploit to the community the next time one is found, so we can be less ignorant of the law?

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

Geikamir.6329:

Vayne.8563:

Geikamir.6329:

ProphetSword.5427:

I will say the same thing that I always say when these threads pop up. There’s this thing that comes with the game called the EULA. You click on it and agree to its terms when you first run the game.

According to that EULA, you agree not to exploit. And, you agree that your account can be terminated/banned at any time without notice for violation of the rules. That is your warning. It was given when you read the EULA (you read it, right?)

You can moan about it all you want, but you agreed to those terms. It’s a done deal. Don’t exploit.

I don’t think you’ve read this thread.

I completely with the OP. Not telling citizens the law and then punishing them based off of these mysterious hidden rules is inherently unfair. Just saying “Don’t commit crimes!” doesn’t count. What exactly are the crimes I shouldn’t commit?

Except that’s how the law works in real life. If you aren’t a lawyer you don’t necessarily know the law, and you can get caught out. And ignorance of the law is no excuse. It happens all the time.

No, that’s not how the law works. Laws are written down. They are official and what can and can’t be done is available for anyone who is interested to see. The OP is asking for that exact type of clarity with in-game exploits. This isn’t about pleading innocence, it’s about not even being able to know.

Laws are written down and subject to constant ammendment and annotation. No laymen can expect to follow, know or understand law. It’s just not possible. That’s why lawyers can charge so much money.

Recently in a case in Australia, someone who used to get workers comp for an injury sustained on the job, suddenly stopped getting paid because of a reinterpretation of an existing law. The law hadn’t changed at all but a new ruling based on that law was handed down by a judge that changed how the law was perceived.

So even though the government agency admitted the person was injured at work and remained injured, they could get out of paying, since the way the decision was worded, if a person is denied a benefit, transfer or promotion they are simply not eligble for that type of compensation. The name of the case was Hart vs. Comcare, if you care to look it up.

The person who stopped being paid (it was a bunch of people actually but I know only one person it happened to personally) had to go to court and fight for their right to compensation. The problem is there were too many legal issues, too many loopholes, too many issues for that person to understand by themselves.

The law is written down. Have you ever looked at or read it? Do you even have that kind of time? For all practical purposes, the law is obscure except in the most commonly held notions. Things like murder and stealing are bad. Assault is bad. But what constitutes crimes in one state can be completely different when you’re in another state, never mind how they vary from country to country.

Anyone who says the law is clear because it’s written down doesn’t know much about law.

Would you be willing to explicitly explain the exploit to the community the next time one is found, so we can be less ignorant of the law?

No, because I never find them until it’s all over. But then Anet doesn’t find them until people abuse it…that’s the problem. And real law has contingencies for that too. Laws change because cases get tested all the time in courts, to see if the judge will allow charges to be brought. Sometimes something that’s not specifically a law gets charged under another similar law.

If Anet doesn’t know about the exploit until it’s used, and it takes time for them to find out, how can they inform anyone?