Guild Wars 2

How will refunds be handled for town clothing that was a gift? Will the refund still be approved for the purchaser?

Bensozia.8071:

Devildoc.6721:

They’re exchanging the steak for a pork chop right as you’re taking a bite, and keeping your money.

Nah , its n more like you are getting meatloaf from swanson frozen foods,
pork chop would be too good.

And not just the meat loaf because now you have to eat the squishy peas and the watery mashed potatoes that come in the “set.” although, you can just uncheck the rubbery apple cobbler.

Lamont.5973:

Bensozia.8071:

Devildoc.6721:

They’re exchanging the steak for a pork chop right as you’re taking a bite, and keeping your money.

Nah , its n more like you are getting meatloaf from swanson frozen foods,
pork chop would be too good.

And not just the meat loaf because now you have to eat the squishy peas and the watery mashed potatoes that come in the “set.” although, you can just uncheck the rubbery apple cobbler.

+100 you had me laughing on that one

DeWolfe.2174:

Allaraina.8614:

Interestingly, many of my guildies, rp buddies, and myself were on the edge of our seats from launch waiting for even MORE town clothes to be added. I have long since lost count of how many frustrated-tinged-with-excitement conversations we’ve had about wanting anet to bring us more clothes.

Anet seems so completely obsessed with the PvP and combat, they don’t even realize they have paying customers whom like OTHER things in game too. To make a simple analogy, I’d like more functionality and creativity in characters and housing like “the Sims” has. Also, I’d like more cultivating like “Farmville” had. In a game where end game content is entirely appearance based, they should give us a great variety in appearance.

And we already have the making for it. I have mining nodes and a weird krait rock in my home instance. Add in a garden! Give us player housing and guild halls, give us more clothes, and… ta da!

These are things that don’t need to be implemented right away. And they don’t need to take the same amount of time as pve/pvp/wvw stuff does. I can wait a year or two. But give me a skirt, shirt, tux, dress, and new pair of shoes every few months, would you?

I love dungeons. I have completed hobby dungeon explorer at least 45 times (not exaggerating). But I also love this non-fighting business and chatting away with other players hanging out in my front yard while I figure out which part of the house I want to hang Zhaitan’s stuffed head from. Trophy room…. or over the fireplace? Hmmn…

katubug.6378:

…but may we please have more sylvari cultural type town clothes?

YES YES AND MORE YES TO THIS BIT! <3

Lamont.5973:

And don’t forget that some of us bought multiple sets of some of these items. I bought 4 sets of wintersday for different toons (one toon wore with a top hat, another with the ringmaster hat, another with the ear muffs and the fourth with the santa hat – none of which will now be possible).

But, since it is now going to be an account wide unlock I will have spent 4 times as many gems for the same functionality as a player who bought a single set – and, from what it sounds, still will not be able to get a refund for the 3 extra sets.

Anet really REALLY needs to clarify whether we will be getting refunds for multiple sets.

I hate the changes to all of this so much and I think ANet is shooting themselves in the foot with this. That being said, what I’m even more upset about is the absolute horrible commincation from Curtis Johnson. Many of his answers simply don’t make any sodding sense and is making the situation so much more unnececarily frustrating.

cakesphere.5910:

This is also a terrible analogy because the revamp itself is awful. It’s like if they went from analog tv to digital but removed every TV channel except one.
But it’s okay, because they will show lots of different shows on that one channel! Nevermind that you liked having several channels to choose from. This is just as good, we promise! You just have to give our one superchannel a try!

edited a few times because I type faster than my brain can move and I can’t analogy till I have my ducks in a row ><

And that is much better still. ;-)

Let’s run with that one, shall we? And drop the inane “restaurant” one forever?

I was think about this Town Clothes issue again today when I was working and have come to the conclusion that it is actually theft.

When ArenaNet changed the Flamekissed skin, that was mainly inconciderate. We all accecpt the agreement everytime we sign in which says that they can do whatever they want with all the stuff in the game (in a nut shell). So, after they changed the skins, everyone that bought it still had six pieces of light armour. Six different pieces but still six pieces (so not quite theft).
With this new update, we lose around 4 pieces from each costume set and will lose many individual pieces of town clothes altogether. We will be given some replacement items for most of the stuff they change or remove but these items function almost completely differently. We will not recieve any replacement items for the other pieces of the costumes that will be removed from the game when they make three, four and five piece costumes just one piece costumes. That is thieft as far as Im concerened. With each costume set, I paid for and recievied several items and they are going to take away all but one. As far as I can remember, I sign away my rights to deal with their thievery in the way I might do with normal theft (by taking legal proceedings against them) when I sign in and agree to their terms and conditions. But… this does not change the fact that this is still theft (or it is as far as im concerned).

Added: Actually, I was also thinking how they said “wait and see the new Flamekissed armour, you may even like it”. Well we did, and it’s crap! Now we’re getting the same story, “wait and see”. You know what, I’d rather not! I’d rather not wait till after the update to have say “It’s crap. I told you it was going to be crap and it is crap!”. I’d much rather they just left it till there’s a better solution because there’s a slim chance they’ll bring it back once they’ve taken it out.

Feycat.4370:

Donut.6914:

Well, at least I can get a refund and hope that ANet will create a costume set similar to what I have now in the future.

Really? You’d buy from them again?

I don’t care if they create an outfit exactly like the mix and match one I’m wearing now. If this change goes live, I will never buy anything from the gemstore again.

I would kinda have to buy from them again, seeing as how I can only get gems back, and not actual money back.

Donut.6914:

Feycat.4370:

Donut.6914:

Well, at least I can get a refund and hope that ANet will create a costume set similar to what I have now in the future.

Really? You’d buy from them again?

I don’t care if they create an outfit exactly like the mix and match one I’m wearing now. If this change goes live, I will never buy anything from the gemstore again.

I would kinda have to buy from them again, seeing as how I can only get gems back, and not actual money back.

I’m sure a lot of us will respend the gems we get back, but that will be it. No more real money for gems, ever.

Honestly though, I would be willing to just give up on this whole debacle if ANet promised to refund EVERY SINGLE piece of town clothes. It’s ridiculous that they’re only providing refunds for some pieces of clothing when town clothes as a whole are being changed.

Don’t Worry guys, you’ll have some of your Town Clothes useable as armor now! So you can pay money for Transmutation every time you want to use those Town Clothes! a healthier game!

If they really wanted a “healthier game” they would have left town clothes how they were & made them useable in combat. Done. tbh, they should have been useable in combat from the beginning.

DarksunG.9537:

Don’t Worry guys, you’ll have some of your Town Clothes useable as armor now! So you can pay money for Transmutation every time you want to use those Town Clothes! a healthier game!

If they really wanted a “healthier game” they would have left town clothes how they were & made them useable in combat. Done. tbh, they should have been useable in combat from the beginning.

That’s another thing that bothers me as well now. Changing our town clothes around was free. We could mix and match any time we wanted, without any additional charge. Now we have to pay every time we want to change our clothes. This quote sums it up perfectly (taken from another thread):

DarksunG.9537:

Downwood.3192:

The problem is that this isn’t a wardrobe. A wardrobe is a collection of clothes that you can pick and choose and use at any time because it’s yours.

This is a unlockable skin store.

You work, grind, and put effort in to collect skin. You pay real cash for, or convert gold to gems to buy skins on the TP. Either way, you can now earn the right to pay again to use something that you’ve unlocked..

This needs to be repeated over & over. This is my entire problem with this new system. They added cool stuff by making things account bound (it’s essentially going back to the GW1 costume account bound stuff) & saving bank space, then they ruin it by keeping the crappy “pay to use” system. I want to be able to swap at any time to any look for free. I’d pay to unlock each skin but just to swap to it? eff that. So far this will just open bank space for me & nothing else. I’m not going to pay to be swapping all the time even though that would be the whole fun of a wardrobe system. Unlocking 100 skins & just having them sit in the UI because I have to pay to use them is not the point of a wardrobe.

I didn’t buy town clothes, so maybe not as upset as I should be about this.

But if the beanie becomes useable as an armor skin I’ll actually consider buying and using it.

Just thought of the perfect comparison. Capital city and Lion’s Arch maps are non-combat maps in the same way that town clothes are non-combat clothes. Non-combat clothes for non-combat maps. Are they going to change the non-combat maps to combat maps too?

Titan Cronus.9216:

snip

And here we go into left field sillyness.

Theft? Really? Come on. I get you’re disappointed, but seriously, get real.

Tell ya what. Ya really think it’s theft? Here ya go: http://www.fbi.gov/report-threats-and-crime

Follow that link, report Arena.net for theft, and see what happens.

Content within a game changes all the time, especially in MMOs. It is not theft. Period.

If you want to try and sway the opinion of a developer, accusing them of a felony probably isn’t going to tilt their ear your way.

Donut.6914:

Honestly though, I would be willing to just give up on this whole debacle if ANet promised to refund EVERY SINGLE piece of town clothes. It’s ridiculous that they’re only providing refunds for some pieces of clothing when town clothes as a whole are being changed.

I actually feel the same way. I am sad that my characters will lose their individual non-combat looks and I won’t be able to regain them. But if I got my gems back for ALL the townclothes (including the multiple sets) I bought from them, I’d be willing to shrug and let it go. Then I can re-spend all those gems on the 8000 transmutation stones I’m clearly going to need in order to make this “wardrobe” work for me.

Piogre.2164:

I didn’t buy town clothes, so maybe not as upset as I should be about this.

But if the beanie becomes useable as an armor skin I’ll actually consider buying and using it.

While I don’t want ANet to be rewarded for this with more sales, in the interests of being honest and open…

The beanie is still in the store. That indicates that it will likely become a helmet skin that can be applied to any armor class. The same goes for the ringmaster and top hats.

If we’re counting the players feeling frustrated, duped and ripped off due to having paid a lot of real money for duplicates ,add me to the total.

It’s been 24 hours since I heard about the proposed changes to the Town Clothes system and posted my bitter disappointment. I had hoped that I would have cooled off with time, but I’m still simmering.

I keep harkening back to Guild Wars 1, when I spent a ton of time, effort, and money perfecting my Dervish. Great character! Lots of different strengths! And then one day they completely rewrote the Profession.

All of my time, effort, and money were completely thrown out the window. I (and many others) were livid. I poured more time and effort and money into my Dervish in an attempt to adapt to the new version, but could never regain the flexibility or strength of the original. I eventually stopped playing that character altogether.

In real life, I have had my house burglarized. The theft of all the time, effort, and money I put into my Dervish gave me the same feeling of having been violated that I had when I returned from work to a ransacked home. I still count the Dervish overhaul as the most unfair, painful moment in all my years of gaming.

This change in the town clothing system – even though it hasn’t been instituted yet – already has me feeling much the same way. It’s anger, plain and simple. I hate feeling this way, but once again all of my time, effort, and money is being stolen from me.

I don’t want a refund. When they burglarized my house, I didn’t want the replacement junk that the insurance paid for. I wanted the original things that I’d spent years getting just right.

Salvage this. There is still time. We can still have the town clothes we currently have if you let us turn all of our individual pieces of Town Clothing into armor skins. That gives us our dyability and flexibility to mix and match. It’s not a perfect solution, because there’s bound to be clipping complaints when people mix their town clothes and armors. And I will especially miss the ability to switch over to my town clothes instantaneously.

But those of us who value town clothes bought them because they AREN’T armors. They are down-time clothes. We will be matching them with other pieces that make them look like down-time clothes.

Despite the apologies, I’m not feeling much sincerity. If they truly understood the feelings here, there would at least be a “we understand the pain you feel and are looking for a compromise”. Instead, I feel like we’re being squashed underfoot while they say “Oops! I didn’t see you there!”

Believe me, it is a special kind of hurt when something you put a lot into is taken away.

Titan Cronus.9216:

Just thought of the perfect comparison. Capital city and Lion’s Arch maps are non-combat maps in the same way that town clothes are non-combat clothes. Non-combat clothes for non-combat maps. Are they going to change the non-combat maps to combat maps too?

Yes.

DarksunG.9537:

Don’t Worry guys, you’ll have some of your Town Clothes useable as armor now! So you can pay money for Transmutation every time you want to use those Town Clothes! a healthier game!

You don’t need transmutes for outfits.

chemiclord.3978:

Titan Cronus.9216:

snip

And here we go into left field sillyness.

Theft? Really? Come on. I get you’re disappointed, but seriously, get real.

Tell ya what. Ya really think it’s theft? Here ya go: http://www.fbi.gov/report-threats-and-crime

Follow that link, report Arena.net for theft, and see what happens.

Content within a game changes all the time, especially in MMOs. It is not theft. Period.

If you want to try and sway the opinion of a developer, accusing them of a felony probably isn’t going to tilt their ear your way.

Did you even read what he commented on entirely? He acknowledged the very fact against what you say. He’s right in the regards that it just feels morally wrong with what they’re doing to the minority of the players.

Devildoc.6721:

You know Curtis. All it would take, is to just say “due to player response, we’ve decided to go back and re-add the town clothes paper doll for people who wish to mix and match town clothes but be unable to use them in combat, and to use their toy items. this won’t be in the April 15th patch and we can’t say when it’ll be back in, but it’ll be in sometime soon”.. or at least acknowledgement that you’re considering it.

That sounds soooo great. Hope this happens

DarksunG.9537:

Don’t Worry guys, you’ll have some of your Town Clothes useable as armor now! So you can pay money for Transmutation every time you want to use those Town Clothes! a healthier game!

To be honest, I believe Colin already said in previous post outfits are going to be free to apply. But this changes nothing, they should keep town clothes option anyway.

What I’m not sure if I read something about is if, since outfits are going to be a single item, will we be able to dye each outfit part or the only option will be dyeing it all with the same colors?

Johasthan.1327:

What I’m not sure if I read something about is if, since outfits are going to be a single item, will we be able to dye each outfit part or the only option will be dyeing it all with the same colors?

You will have 1-4 channels (depending on the outfit) that apply to the entire outfit.

Will be be able to hide the helmet for Suits like we can with armor?

Titan Cronus.9216:

I was think about this Town Clothes issue again today when I was working and have come to the conclusion that it is actually theft.

It’s not actually theft since you agreed to the terms. However when you purchase store items with real money and they essentially take those items away from you (can’t use individual pieces as you could when you purchased them), I would agree that it is morally theft. Yes, they are contractually allowed to do it but it isn’t right.

By the logic he presented ANY time an MMO changes its content, that is morally theft.

It’s absurd. It’s not theft, either legally or morally. What it IS is a silly overreaction from a bitter player.

Razyll.2081:

chemiclord.3978:

Titan Cronus.9216:

snip

And here we go into left field sillyness.

Theft? Really? Come on. I get you’re disappointed, but seriously, get real.

Tell ya what. Ya really think it’s theft? Here ya go: http://www.fbi.gov/report-threats-and-crime

Follow that link, report Arena.net for theft, and see what happens.

Content within a game changes all the time, especially in MMOs. It is not theft. Period.

If you want to try and sway the opinion of a developer, accusing them of a felony probably isn’t going to tilt their ear your way.

Did you even read what he commented on entirely? He acknowledged the very fact against what you say. He’s right in the regards that it just feels morally wrong with what they’re doing to the minority of the players.

This is what bothers me the most. You are quite right, legally, there is nothing that can be done; since we spent real money on the gems, not the actual outfit (the way you bought the actual outfit in GW1), regardless of the EULA, the argument would be that you only bought the gems with the real money, and got what you paid for; you only spent in-game currency on the outfits. Splitting hairs, but great legally for them. Thing is, in every other company I have ever dealt with outside of software companies, there is a good faith effort to address and resolve consumer complaints. Even the cable companies, as per the example above, will at least try to credit an account or change the package or whatever to placate the customer, even when they claim the changes are “necessary” or “unavoidable” or whatever. Switch your steak for a pork chop and I don’t know any grocery store or restaurant that won’t take it back and at least replace it, if not fully refund it. As much as I hate the changes as proposed, I can swallow that. What disturbs me is Anet’s flat refusal to refund the gems for outfits, or to give any real credit to the complaints of the customers. Amazon, in one of the other examples above, couldn’t get away with that, for instance. I do have to say, I don’t think Anet really appreciates how deeply a refusal to at least try and make things right damages customer trust, nor how deeply that really will affect their reputation and their bottom line. They are counting on rolling out in China balancing the scales of angry US players who won’t buy more in the short term, but will come back in the long run. Perhaps they are right, but it really is a sad day when a company’s reputation and the good will of customers means so very little to a BUSINESS. I appreciate Curtis’ honest and clearly believed-in, if rather incoherent explanations, but a good business takes in stride that some customers are going to be angry, even if it does seem unreasonable, and they do what they can to act in good faith for the customer’s satisfaction. Of course, with most other business, there can be consequences for acting the way Anet is acting, such as getting reported to the BBB.

You can TRY to report them to the Better Business Bureau.

You’ll be laughed at, but you can TRY.

Arena.net hasn’t done anything wrong other than make a change that bitterly disappointed some customers. If that was the bar for a complaint to the BBB, every country in the United States would be guilty of fraud.

You own a copy of the game (or the license to it). You do NOT own the content within that game. If the game changes that content, you have no grounds to make any legal claims against them. That is intentional… to prevent the scenario of fans filing frivolous lawsuits every time a developer makes internal changes said fans don’t like.

You’re disappointed. It sucks. No, it isn’t what you wanted. But it’s their right as the developer to change their content however they see fit, whether you approve of it or not.

Your power as the customer is to walk away, and not support developers that don’t give you what you want.

You want Arena.net to change their mind? If enough of you use that power, they will or they will fail.

Palador.2170:

Johasthan.1327:

What I’m not sure if I read something about is if, since outfits are going to be a single item, will we be able to dye each outfit part or the only option will be dyeing it all with the same colors?

You will have 1-4 channels (depending on the outfit) that apply to the entire outfit.

Wow, this is getting worse and worse

chemiclord.3978:

Titan Cronus.9216:

snip

And here we go into left field sillyness.

Theft? Really? Come on. I get you’re disappointed, but seriously, get real.

Tell ya what. Ya really think it’s theft? Here ya go: http://www.fbi.gov/report-threats-and-crime

Follow that link, report Arena.net for theft, and see what happens.

Content within a game changes all the time, especially in MMOs. It is not theft. Period.

If you want to try and sway the opinion of a developer, accusing them of a felony probably isn’t going to tilt their ear your way.

Sorry you think it so ridiculous a concept man. I wasn’t making a point about them changing the content of the game, but removing content that I payed for.

I know that because we never actually own anything within the game as thats what we’re agreeing to with the terms and conditions. We agree that everything in the game belongs to them so they in fact cannot technicaly steal anyhting. But thats a technical argument and I was more making a moral one. I also said that it was theft “as far as I was concerened”.

Look, I know that my account, characters and all the digital content that I have payed for aren’t technicaly mine (because of the ToC I agreed to) but come on, it bloody well is! If I buy/pay for a car, its mine. if I buy/pay for a house, its mine. Anything that I buy and pay for legally, is mine. In just about every other industry in the world, any products you buy, you take ownership of but not in this MMO. If It were (just about) any other industry and I had bought an item that consisted of six components, and several monthes after the perchase, the company that sold me the item came and took five of the components back without my consent, that would be theft. No two ways about it, that would be theft. I bought it, took ownership of it and had it taken back without my permission and consent, thats theft.

BTW, in several countries of the world (countries like south Korea if i remember correctly), all digital property is concidered as much your as your material property and AreaNet would be liable.

Doggie.3184:

Will be be able to hide the helmet for Suits like we can with armor?

They have said so, yes.

Hyperbole is more likely to get your opinion dismissed than heeded.

Titan Cronus.9216:

Sorry you think it so ridiculous a concept man. I wasn’t making a point about them changing the content of the game, but removing content that I payed for.

I know that because we never actually own anything within the game as thats what we’re agreeing to with the terms and conditions. We agree that everything in the game belongs to them so they in fact cannot technicaly steal anyhting. But thats a technical argument and I was more making a moral one. I also said that it was theft “as far as I was concerened”.

Look, I know that my account, characters and all the digital content that I have payed for aren’t technicaly mine (because of the ToC I agreed to) but come on, it bloody well is! If I buy/pay for a car, its mine. if I buy/pay for a house, its mine. Anything that I buy and pay for legally, is mine. In just about every other industry in the world, any products you buy, you take ownership of but not in this MMO. If It were (just about) any other industry and I had bought an item that consisted of six components, and several monthes after the perchase, the company that sold me the item came and took five of the components back without my consent, that would be theft. No two ways about it, that would be theft. I bought it, took ownership of it and had it taken back without my permission and consent, thats theft.

BTW, in several countries of the world (countries like south Korea if i remember correctly), all digital property is concidered as much your as your material property and AreaNet would be liable.

Except it’s not.

It is not theft without ownership. The more accurate analogy is you leasing an item, and the company taking it back and replacing it with something else (which is something they are granted in most lease agreements). That is not theft, because the item you are leasing is not yours. You do NOT own it. There is no such thing as “moral” theft.

You do NOT own the content in the game, regardless of whether you put money into that game. That is quite clearly laid out intentionally, the content is not, and never will be yours.

You are disappointed. You are bitter because you aren’t getting what you want. And ya know what? That’s fine. You shouldn’t be happy if you aren’t getting what you want.

But one thing is not is theft, moral or otherwise.

Okay… I’m sorry.

Right now, there is a lot of raw emotion being thrown out here, and it’s not going to always be logical. I’m going to stop demanding it be so. Have a good night, and whatever happens, try and have fun whether it is with this game or a different one.

chemiclord.3978:

Titan Cronus.9216:

Sorry you think it so ridiculous a concept man. I wasn’t making a point about them changing the content of the game, but removing content that I payed for.

I know that because we never actually own anything within the game as thats what we’re agreeing to with the terms and conditions. We agree that everything in the game belongs to them so they in fact cannot technicaly steal anyhting. But thats a technical argument and I was more making a moral one. I also said that it was theft “as far as I was concerened”.

Look, I know that my account, characters and all the digital content that I have payed for aren’t technicaly mine (because of the ToC I agreed to) but come on, it bloody well is! If I buy/pay for a car, its mine. if I buy/pay for a house, its mine. Anything that I buy and pay for legally, is mine. In just about every other industry in the world, any products you buy, you take ownership of but not in this MMO. If It were (just about) any other industry and I had bought an item that consisted of six components, and several monthes after the perchase, the company that sold me the item came and took five of the components back without my consent, that would be theft. No two ways about it, that would be theft. I bought it, took ownership of it and had it taken back without my permission and consent, thats theft.

BTW, in several countries of the world (countries like south Korea if i remember correctly), all digital property is concidered as much your as your material property and AreaNet would be liable.

Except it’s not.

It is not theft without ownership. The more accurate analogy is you leasing an item, and the company taking it back and replacing it with something else (which is something they are granted in most lease agreements). That is not theft, because the item you are leasing is not yours. You do NOT own it. There is no such thing as “moral” theft.

You do NOT own the content in the game, regardless of whether you put money into that game. That is quite clearly laid out intentionally, the content is not, and never will be yours.

You are disappointed. You are bitter because you aren’t getting what you want. And ya know what? That’s fine. You shouldn’t be happy if you aren’t getting what you want.

But one thing is not is theft, moral or otherwise.

I know I don’t technicaly own it, look at my quotes, we both know it.
But, it would be theft if I owned it and I should own it as I payed for it. If it were just about any other industry in the world I would own it. The only reason I don’t own it is because the want to keep the right to change and/or delete it after I have payed for it and the only way to do that is to refuse to give me ownership of it and that in my opion, is emoral. To tweek a well known phrase; I have my cake but can’t eat it. lol

chemiclord.3978:

Okay… I’m sorry.

Right now, there is a lot of raw emotion being thrown out here, and it’s not going to always be logical. I’m going to stop demanding it be so. Have a good night, and whatever happens, try and have fun whether it is with this game or a different one.

No need to be sorry on my account man, I wasn’t taking offence. We were just having a descussion.

Your right though, a lot of emotion here on this topic. Im not mad or angry in any way with any of my fellow players, no matter their opinion. If Im honest though, I am upset and angry with ArenaNet.

I feel so sorry for the RPers and anyone else who purchased town clothes to mix and match them. I’d have liked to wear town clothes in combat, but not like this and not at the expense of a small community that has stuck with the game despite being ignored (right or wrong, the last point of contention was uninstanced Salma District, I believe).

I’m still protesting these changes to the Town Clothes. It’s unnecessary and pointless.
It may not be theft in any sense of the word but it is unfair to us, your customers.
Please talk with us, not just give some official statement.

EDIT: I’m really hoping this is just an April’s fool’s joke…

chemiclord.3978:

By the logic he presented ANY time an MMO changes its content, that is morally theft.

It’s absurd. It’s not theft, either legally or morally. What it IS is a silly overreaction from a bitter player.

I believe there’s a certain degree of reasonable expectation involved. When you play a class, there’s a reasonable expectation that that class’s features might be altered slightly for game balance. While my Thief build can no longer have a very useful trait because it was moved due to a balance patch, I was okay with that because it was a reasonable thing due to initiative regen being increased. When you pay a small amount of in-game money for an item, that item being altered (such as ember pets and ogre pets summoned through items being given a cooldown) is also reasonable. When the Flamekissed skin was changed, even that was relatively reasonable because they offered a refund for it, and because many players were asking for it to be changed, so while some people were negatively impacted, others were positively impacted (which also holds true for balance patches).

When you pay real money for an item that works a certain way, and the company changes the function of that item for no apparent reason (and refuses to state a reason), and it continues to sell those items even after revealing that they knew for months beforehand that their function would be drastically changed, and offers a refund only for a very small number of the affected items… that is not a reasonable thing. It is this behavior, continuing to sell items even after knowing that their function would be entirely altered, that is the root of people’s charges regarding morals: intentionally hiding already-decided-on changes to sell more things that you then refuse to refund when those changes are revealed.

It is especially unreasonable because it does not seem that there is any benefit to the change: it is quite possible to turn town clothes into outfits WITHOUT removing their mix-and-match capability, and we have been given no reason to believe otherwise. In a balance patch, every change has a distinct purpose. It may make you unhappy, but at least you can see the method in the madness. In this one, the purpose is entirely unclear and the “answer” we were promised did not reveal any purpose either: it mentioned “issues,” but not what they were (obviously we figured there must be “issues” but the question was what issues).

Hopefully that clears some of it up for you in a… less emotionally charged way. You may still disagree, but at least the difference between reasonable expectations (expecting something you paid for not to be changed abruptly and not refunded) and unreasonable expectations (expecting nothing to change ever) makes more sense?

Rabbi Rick.5941:

Just noticed that they are still selling the outfits in the Gem Store, with no warning that the construction of said outfits are going to change. I screenshotted the BLTC screen with the outfits highlighted and the pop-up text clearly states, in unequivocal terms, "this six piece outfit (hat, gloves, …) etc.

I bought six pieces, I should keep six pieces.

Wow, I was going to check on that myself but I figured (wrongly, apparently) that there was no way that would be the case. I assumed that the items would at least have a warning attached if not actually be removed from the store already pending the changes at which time they’d be re introduced with their new “functionality.”

That is just sad. It’s also seeming to be a bit of an outward sign of exactly what a lot of the players here are complaining about. Changes aren’t discussed or released before hand, they’re simply done whenever ANet decides they should be done because that is clearly the only thing that matters. It’s not that the (unnecessary) changes would have been welcomed with open arms but at least if they were actually discussed with reasons and potential alternatives hashed over before hand there would be more acceptance and understanding.

chemiclord.3978:

By the logic he presented ANY time an MMO changes its content, that is morally theft.

It’s absurd. It’s not theft, either legally or morally. What it IS is a silly overreaction from a bitter player.

No, we’re talking about items specifically purchased from the store. For example, if I subscribe to a farmers basket of vegetables from my local farmer or coop, I agree to take whatever vegetables they are harvesting atm. So if the kind of veg I’m getting changes that is reasonable within the contract. Just like if I pay for a game I am purchasing the “contents” which are going to change over time.

However, if I go to the store an purchase a lemon because I like the taste, smell and color of a lemon. And somehow later they magically change the lemon into a green pepper I’m going to be upset. In this case store items are not “part of the game” in the way that items that I get just for buying the game are. Store items should remain at least true to their “spirit”. In this case if boots or glasses are purchased it is because we wanted the freedom to use them individually. Making boots into an entire item is not within the spirit of the purchase.

If these changes must be made, Anet should allow players to get refunds for any items they purchased which have been made into outfits.

Djinn.9245:

However, if I go to the store an purchase a lemon because I like the taste, smell and color of a lemon. And somehow later they magically change the lemon into a green pepper I’m going to be upset.

I recommend you not sign any EULAs at your local grocer .

chemiclord.3978:

You can TRY to report them to the Better Business Bureau.

You’ll be laughed at, but you can TRY.

Arena.net hasn’t done anything wrong other than make a change that bitterly disappointed some customers. If that was the bar for a complaint to the BBB, every country in the United States would be guilty of fraud.

You own a copy of the game (or the license to it). You do NOT own the content within that game. If the game changes that content, you have no grounds to make any legal claims against them. That is intentional… to prevent the scenario of fans filing frivolous lawsuits every time a developer makes internal changes said fans don’t like.

You’re disappointed. It sucks. No, it isn’t what you wanted. But it’s their right as the developer to change their content however they see fit, whether you approve of it or not.

Your power as the customer is to walk away, and not support developers that don’t give you what you want.

You want Arena.net to change their mind? If enough of you use that power, they will or they will fail.

I think you completely missed my point. I’ve been reading your other posts, so I think it’s intentional, however, and not worth an argument at this point.

Curtis Johnson.8456:

Gibson.4036:

And then we need to burn a transmutation charge whenever we want to move from town clothes to a combat look. Not great for roleplayers.

There is no transmutation charge to change outfits or toggle it on and off.
Transmutation charges are for applying new skins to specific armor pieces, same as now.

Yes outfits are all or nothing.
Yes wearable in combat. There will be no non-combat equipment anymore, unless you count tonics.

Yes outfits are all or nothing.

Why are you taking away customization? Does that sound good to you?

Feycat.4370:

Donut.6914:

Honestly though, I would be willing to just give up on this whole debacle if ANet promised to refund EVERY SINGLE piece of town clothes. It’s ridiculous that they’re only providing refunds for some pieces of clothing when town clothes as a whole are being changed.

I actually feel the same way. I am sad that my characters will lose their individual non-combat looks and I won’t be able to regain them. But if I got my gems back for ALL the townclothes (including the multiple sets) I bought from them, I’d be willing to shrug and let it go. Then I can re-spend all those gems on the 8000 transmutation stones I’m clearly going to need in order to make this “wardrobe” work for me.

This is how I feel. All of my trust in Anet as a company is completely shattered and I’m never spending another cent in the gem store, or on anything else tied to Anet/NCSoft except for the last GW1 expansion I need. I’m incredibly angry and upset over the loss of townclothes, but obviously Anet doesn’t care about what their paying customers want or feel. But if I could get refunds on all three of my Wintersday sets, if I was assured I wouldn’t have to send in a ridiculous amount of support tickets in the hopes that they’d eventually change their mind, I’d be a lot more okay with this. I’d just give up and accept that Anet doesn’t care and look forward to the finisher and character slot I’d buy with my gems. But they refuse to even give us that one thing, one VERY reasonable thing, and that’s just absolutely appalling.

chemiclord.3978:

You own a copy of the game (or the license to it). You do NOT own the content within that game.

This used to be the case when all a player purchased was a game box or a subscription to a game. However, it is an interesting question: when a game puts a particular item for sale in the game store for real money – is it fair for them to completely change that item in the future?

As I stated previously, it is one thing for a game company to change certain aspects of the entire game. And if you have purchased that game or a subscription to the game you are aware that these types of sweeping changes can take place. But if the game company is going to sell specific items for real money in their store, I believe that they have a certain responsibility to remain as faithful as possible to those items. It’s one thing to change some specifics about an item (storebought mining axes have a different animation for graphic reasons). But its another thing to change the fundamental usability of an item (the mining axe that was supposed to be Bound to Account is now Bound to Character). In my opinion that is false advertising and morally wrong.

Hm, just had a very interesting discussion with my boyfriend wherein he speculated about ANet’s reasons for this seemingly incredibly dumb decision, and made some pretty good points. He’s got some knowledge of programming and is a game design nerd but also a writer at heart, so he occupies a sort of middle ground where he might be capable of communicating what ANet cannot communicate, so Curtis, PLEASE pay attention to this and possibly DO A CONFIRM/DENY? for everyone’s peace of mind.

This is a paraphrase of a much longer and more involved conversation, but I hope it gets the gist across.

To start with, some very simplistic definitions: A skeleton is a series of lines that join together to determine points of articulation and movement. A mesh fits around a skeleton to provide the shape of what is moving. A texture goes on that mesh to give it color and pattern and such.

Q: So, why can’t town clothes be used in combat, anyway?
A: Because combat animations are based on armor class, and the mesh for each armor class is constructed differently.

Q: But your combat stance in both of them is identical, and the way you jump, run, and so on. And running and jumping animations and such are also identical no matter what armor class you wear, so they all must have the same skeleton. Why not just apply combat animations to the identical town clothes skeleton then?
A: Some systems in the game that affect animations probably reference the mesh itself, and not the skeleton; and they probably can’t go through and change all of those systems to interact with EITHER the character’s armor class mesh OR the town clothes mesh.

Q: But aren’t those systems already prepared to handle three different armor class meshes?
A: Yes, but right now, all they have to do is detect what armor class the character is. If a character could use two different meshes, they would also have to detect which mesh the character is using at the time. And we don’t know how many systems they would have to change.

Q: But you can fight naked, and you can do Costume Brawl naked. Obviously the naked mesh is the same either way. So how do those systems work then?
A: The armor mesh is still there, but without a texture, so it’s invisible.

Q: So what if you made the armor mesh invisible, and then put the town clothes mesh over the identical skeleton, so the systems have the armor mesh to interact with but the town clothes mesh is the visible one?
A: There might not be a way to code that now, after the fact, depending on how the game’s code is built. It could also lead to all sorts of bugs.

Q: And yet, they’ve already made Outfits that are the same for each armor class, and combat somehow works in them.
A: They probably made a different version of the Outfit for each armor class, which just looks pretty much identical. That’s probably why it’s easier to do for a whole Outfit and not for individual pieces, because they’re having to make completely new meshes each time, rather than using what they already have. And there are only about six complete outfits, so it’s something they had time to do.

Q: And what about all the ones getting turned into tonics? They made brand-new meshes for all of those too?
A: Those won’t be useable in combat.

Q: Oh man, that’s even worse than I thought. So people asked for combat town clothes, and now most of them are being taken away and not used in combat anyways. So why would they do that? Why wouldn’t they just leave town clothes, if they’re going to STILL have meshes that are specifically designated for being out-of-combat anyways?
A: Probably because it would be difficult to code the new Wardrobe system to hold two different armor weights per character. Right now it only has to display and use armor of one weight type per character.

Q: What if town clothes weren’t part of the Wardrobe, then? How about if they were collectibles, like the PvP bank, that became wearable after you withdrew them from the bank?
A: The new system doesn’t have a PvP bank any more, so it might not be able to support any kind of clothing bank. We don’t even know what they had to do to allow the engine to swap meshes; we don’t know if their new system will support that.

Q: There will still be out-of-combat tonics, though, and you can only swap traits out of combat, so obviously there will still be an “out of combat” tag. Why not have clothing items that you can use out of combat, still?
A: We don’t even know if town clothes were ever really intended to be an out-of-combat thing only, or if that was a stopgap measure.

Q: So you’re saying town clothes might have been initially conceived as being used in combat as well, but the way the code worked out they could only be used out-of-combat in order to work, and THAT’S what The Voice of ANet Speaking Through Curtis meant about town clothes not working as intended?
A: Basically.

(continued)

Djinn.9245:

As I stated previously, it is one thing for a game company to change certain aspects of the entire game. And if you have purchased that game or a subscription to the game you are aware that these types of sweeping changes can take place. But if the game company is going to sell specific items for real money in their store, I believe that they have a certain responsibility to remain as faithful as possible to those items. It’s one thing to change some specifics about an item (storebought mining axes have a different animation for graphic reasons). But its another thing to change the fundamental usability of an item (the mining axe that was supposed to be Bound to Account is now Bound to Character). In my opinion that is false advertising and morally wrong.

I’m not going to even attempt to argue morality, as there are far too many subjective elements to it to ever really reach a consensus. I’ll cede it to you.

Arena.net, legally, however has two protections in this case that will get any complaint you file laughed right out of the courtroom.

Firstly, the precedent has already been set multiple times. You do not own content in game. Period. That you spent money in game does not make the content yours in any way, shape, or form.

Secondly, technically and legally, the only thing you purchased with money is gems (I can guarantee you that’s the major part of the reason why gems exist, in fact). You never actually spent money for any item in game, and that detaches you even further from any legal claim you may have for ownership of that content in dispute.

That’s the game developers play to protect their right to change their content when they see fit, without needing the approval or permission of their customers. You can hate that game all you want. You can think that it’s morally wrong and despicable and disgusting…

… But it’s pretty much legally airtight.

Complaints, either to Arena.net or any oversight group like the Better Business Bureau, will fall on deaf ears. If changing this is your policy, your best (and arguably only) option now is to walk away, and hope enough people join you. Because your only chance is to hit them in the pocketbook.

(continued from last post)

Q: So that means that because town clothes weren’t working as they originally intended, regardless of how they were actually being used, they decided to make the change to Outfits to fit the original intention?
A: Yes. I think ANet has an engineer’s perspective: This system is broken, so I will fix it. Why would somebody use something that is broken anyway?

Q: How the cats are you so good at translating— oh right, Engineering degree.
A: And game design nerd, thank you. I’ve read a lot about programming theory.

Q: I’m a nerd for game design too, though!
A: Yeah, but you’re into fluff, not programming :P

Q: Okay, point. All right then, He Who Knows the Mind of ANet… If Outfits STILL have to be made differently for each armor class, why did Curtis say that doing Outfits allows them to put armor in the store that DOESN’T have to be modified for each armor class? Or was he referring solely to the aesthetics?
A: Yup, aesthetics. This is the only way for them to be able to put out armor that doesn’t have to look like it’s Light, Medium, or Heavy, and also do it quickly. They can design an outfit, tweak it for each complete mesh without having to worry about seams, and ship it, then start work on the next. From THEIR perspective, it makes life easier for the art team and allows them to actually kick out more content. It also means that when designing a clothing item, they don’t have to think about how it would look with every other clothing item: it only has to look good with the rest of its outfit.

It’s pretty much ultimately the problem of any complex system: the more discrete objects you have to deal with, the harder it becomes to introduce new discrete objects. Outfits allow them to swap the paradigm around and eliminate the combinatorial complexity from the design equation.

Q: That DOES seem like what a confused engineer would think about how designers think. Really, though, the designer doesn’t have to make EVERYTHING compatible with EVERYTHING. You don’t go to the store and think that because they’re selling a navy blue shirt, it’s going to really well with the black pants they sell because everything they sell has to look good together! Besides, we’ve got plenty of single items that don’t match other things. Fuzzy bear hat and Charr town clothes?
A: Yes, but when was the last time they released something that wasn’t a complete set?

Q: But people never USE them as a set— Oh. OH. They didn’t KNOW that.
A: Even if they did, the fact is, combining things as a complete outfit and not worrying about how it goes with other things will allow them to pump out new stuff a lot faster. That, I suspect, is what Curtis meant by “you’ll be getting new outfits more often.”

Q: I should start calling you Curtis.
A: Please don’t.

(continued in next post)