Guild Wars 2

Maybe this will clear up my original post in my eye’s P2Win mean’s buying your end game. This game the end game is cosmetic’s there is no super powerful end boss or any super hard dungeon that needs gear. I almost personally prefer for them to sell stat exotic sets on the Trade Post for 800gem’s. Then add all the skin’s into the game.

The average player can fully exotic out in less then a day. I am not saying add ascended only exotic.

But everyone has a different end game. If your end game is WvW,that has nothing to do with skins. If your end game is making a legendary through playing (as opposed to buying it) that also has nothing to do with the gem store.

I have two legendaries and I’m working on a third, but the stuff I bought from the gem shop has nothing to do with them.

If someone wants to buy a legendary then for them, sure, the end game would be buying a legendary…but I personally don’t see the point of that. I’d rather wait and get it.

Forestnator.6298:

League of Legends is p2w because skins are also not for free. Lol.

No, because LoL has PvP. ehm.

What a funny topic!

Skin P2W? xD
So whole game is P2W if you buy gems and transform them in to the gold?
I dont see point of ur topic at all.

You can transform all ur gold in gems and have everything from gem store all the time.
Skins are just for “better” look.

Devs please close this topic.

Ok, you know what? If the endgame in GW2 is getting skins, and skins are sold only for gems, then i can call it P2W. The reason is simple: ’’winning’’ isn’t a thing about killing others in this game…is about looking better. You say ascended made this a vertical progression? C’mon. I have as much gold as a bum, but i have my ascended weapons…you can CRAFT THEM. And the sum of stats(among them) is always the same, so that’s NOT vertical progression.

Usually a P2W game is where you get better items for doing nothing…’’BETTER’’= flaming T3 compared to normal T3, or am i wrong?
How you can deny these moves? The ’’toxic’’armour and NPCs weapons for cash? Not dropping from instance bosses in the tower? Really?
And that’s only a aprt of the problem.
You remember Zephirite’s skins? You could drop, buy with tokens, buy with gem boxes… now the pop. has been decreasing, and BIG SURPRISE, you can now get new things only with wallet!
’’There’s not worse blind than the one who doesn’t want to see.’’

My end game is getting all PvE maps 100 % on all my chars and getting full ascended. As well as getting various titles and achievements. Most people have already got the look they want. They are done with that. Maybe if ANet releases an armor they like, they’ll buy it, but not necessarily.

Not everyone’s endgame is endlessly updating their armor to get the newest or shiniest. Most people are doing WvW, the achieves, dungeons, fractals etc… Not chasing gem store armor skins. For most people it’s irrelevant. How many people do you see wearing gem store armor. It’s not really that high a percent of the game’s population.

angelpaladin.7921:

Maybe this will clear up my original post in my eye’s P2Win mean’s buying your end game. This game the end game is cosmetic’s there is no super powerful end boss or any super hard dungeon that needs gear. I almost personally prefer for them to sell stat exotic sets on the Trade Post for 800gem’s. Then add all the skin’s into the game.

The average player can fully exotic out in less then a day. I am not saying add ascended only exotic.

What you are describing right now, has nothing to do with P2W definition really. In fact, you are trying to play with semantic for the sake of stating opinions that looks like argument. If you want to use the term P2W, stick with its concept, or just don’t.
Anyway, apparently, almost every mmo in the industry are P2W according to what you just said above. Let’s just along people… this guy is something.

It’s definitely not P2W, but the feeling any players have about it is similar to having to deal with P2W.

When part of the accomplishments you can have is some nice skins to show off, or having your character looking the way you want, when some things are available in the gem store, and some are just temporary, never to be obtainable again in any way or form, that gives players a feeling that they must either be as fast as farming gold as other players, or as wealthy as those who can afford buying lots of gems, and that some things will always be out of their reach.

Poplolita.2638:

Devata.6589:

Poplolita.2638:

By your logic, Devata, even Mmo with sub like wow is a P2W game. For example, they offer sometime the best looking mount only available in their cash shop, a cash shop that does not convert gold to… a currency. What is wow endgame all about? To obtain the best possible gearn both in pve and pvp you can get, raid/gladiator tittle, and MOUNTS!

Partly true. The big difference is that for example WoW used to have (don’t know about now) only a very small collection of items in the cash-shop and so for many people that does not even really count. Meanwhile they keep putting many of those items new into the game (game world) itself. Some very good looking.

In many micro-transaction based game you see that the cash-shop plays a much bigger role and they put a lot of those sort of items in the gem-store while adding less into the game itself. Best example might be mini’s. How many mini’s are in WoW available in the cash-shop and how many in the game itself. Now look add GW2.

It’s exactly that mentality why I hate F2P games. Because Anets name with GW1 for mainly generating income with expansions and GW2 asking money for the box (so it looked liked they would go a similar way with GW2) I had hopes for GW2. Sadly they also turned into that micro-transaction based income with all these sort of negative side-effects.

Because in those games the cash-shop does play a much lesser role it’s just counts less for people and there are still many many many more things to get in the game compared to what is available in the cahs-shop. But yeah those available in there usually belong to the best looking ones thats true.

Personally I don’t care because it’s such a small portion and for many it simply does not even really ‘counts’ but if somebody says that that should not be the case (such items in a cash-shop also not a few like in WoW) for similar reasons as here discussed then I would totally understand that.

Guild wars 2 needs to make money in a way or another. They decided to add more item via gemstore than many other mmo with a sub, which is understandable. In fact, that’s exactly how a Buy to play game should work, it is perfectly fine with me. There is nothing to debate really.

For you it is fine for enough other people it isen’t.

And yes they need to make money, let them do it with a focus on expansion sales in stead of a focus on gem sales. That’s in fact how a B2P game sould work. A F2P game should get it’s money from micro-transactions.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

And again there is the kill argument again. This is a PvE game. The goal is fluff, not killing.

There is more killing in PvE than in PvP. Killing monsters is not your goal in game but that does not necessarily hold true for others.

There is indeed a lot of killing but with maybe the exception of a few bosses no the killing is not the goal, the loot that people can get from the kill is the goal in at least 95% of all kills.

Source ?

Lol this is exacly the type of reaction I was referring too before when people would take a hyperbole to serious. Everybody with half a brain knows people are not killing every mob for the kill but for the mob. No source for that.

But heey you show me the source to proof they do it for the fun.

IMO since trinity system has been taken out from GW2, the REAL endgame here is HOW good you fare against monsters/players in group or solo, THATS the real endgame in GW2.

Think of it like CODmp or BFmp.

COD = Solo player, you get better against other players through continued practice/playing.

BF=Group, you get better with people through communication and precise timing.

GW2 = FPS, the endgame is your own skill, not item/skins since everyone can get them and everyone is equal.

Devata.6589:

Poplolita.2638:

Devata.6589:

Poplolita.2638:

By your logic, Devata, even Mmo with sub like wow is a P2W game. For example, they offer sometime the best looking mount only available in their cash shop, a cash shop that does not convert gold to… a currency. What is wow endgame all about? To obtain the best possible gearn both in pve and pvp you can get, raid/gladiator tittle, and MOUNTS!

Partly true. The big difference is that for example WoW used to have (don’t know about now) only a very small collection of items in the cash-shop and so for many people that does not even really count. Meanwhile they keep putting many of those items new into the game (game world) itself. Some very good looking.

In many micro-transaction based game you see that the cash-shop plays a much bigger role and they put a lot of those sort of items in the gem-store while adding less into the game itself. Best example might be mini’s. How many mini’s are in WoW available in the cash-shop and how many in the game itself. Now look add GW2.

It’s exactly that mentality why I hate F2P games. Because Anets name with GW1 for mainly generating income with expansions and GW2 asking money for the box (so it looked liked they would go a similar way with GW2) I had hopes for GW2. Sadly they also turned into that micro-transaction based income with all these sort of negative side-effects.

Because in those games the cash-shop does play a much lesser role it’s just counts less for people and there are still many many many more things to get in the game compared to what is available in the cahs-shop. But yeah those available in there usually belong to the best looking ones thats true.

Personally I don’t care because it’s such a small portion and for many it simply does not even really ‘counts’ but if somebody says that that should not be the case (such items in a cash-shop also not a few like in WoW) for similar reasons as here discussed then I would totally understand that.

Guild wars 2 needs to make money in a way or another. They decided to add more item via gemstore than many other mmo with a sub, which is understandable. In fact, that’s exactly how a Buy to play game should work, it is perfectly fine with me. There is nothing to debate really.

For you it is fine for enough other people it isen’t.

And yes they need to make money, let them do it with a focus on expansion sales in stead of a focus on gem sales. That’s in fact how a B2P game sould work. A F2P game should get it’s money from micro-transactions.

I am all for expansions! If gw2 want me to support them, Ill gladly throw my money to any expansion they will release. In fact, I never spent any money for cash shop item because id much support them while spending money for real content aka expansions! I assume we are pretty much the samw in this regard. However, it is completly irrelevant to this thread main topic.

Vayne.8563:

But everyone has a different end game. If your end game is WvW,that has nothing to do with skins. If your end game is making a legendary through playing (as opposed to buying it) that also has nothing to do with the gem store.

I have two legendaries and I’m working on a third, but the stuff I bought from the gem shop has nothing to do with them.

If someone wants to buy a legendary then for them, sure, the end game would be buying a legendary…but I personally don’t see the point of that. I’d rather wait and get it.

“If your end game is making a legendary through playing (as opposed to buying it) that also has nothing to do with the gem store.”
Problem is that thats almost impossible because you cant really farm for the ingredients. You need to farm for the gold. Then again that is more a subject for the gold = everything thread. Except for the fact that then gem > gold option is (one of) the reason(s) why Anet wants the gold = everything.

WvW players would indeed have the least problem with this from the gem-store is this game. At the same time, because they are the least connected to the gem-store they also get less attention then the PvE section. So in that way the gem-store does effect them but not so much in a game-play way. It’s then maybe also np wonder that many of the people that do stay for a longer period seem to be very active in WvW.

Levian.7683:

What a funny topic!

Skin P2W? xD
So whole game is P2W if you buy gems and transform them in to the gold?
I dont see point of ur topic at all.

You can transform all ur gold in gems and have everything from gem store all the time.
Skins are just for “better” look.

Devs please close this topic.

@OP see this post. Even after you tried to make it clear they still just react on the P2W. Really, just rewrte it not using the P2W but just saying how it’s not good what they do with the gem-store.

@Levian No you can’t transfer gold into gems. Thats one of the reasons they make many things temporary. Sense of urgency and not being able to generate the money you need to buy the items in time.

So if somebody has another opinion (while that might not even be the case as you just flame about GW2 not being P2W while thats not even what OP is saying) they should not be allowed to show that opinion. You would love NK I think.

knives.6345:

Please tell me what should I buy to “win”…

V2P (Values to Play).

You could make the argument that due to WvW GW2 is becoming pay to win. The competitive nature of WvW and the introduction of ascended gear provides some weight to the P2W argument. If ascended gear was inaccessible in WvW then that would be a different story.

The developers made a conscious decision to include ascended gear in WvW for logistical reasons; even though it went against everything they originally stood for.

Calae.1738:

You could make the argument that due to WvW GW2 is becoming pay to win. The competitive nature of WvW and the introduction of ascended gear provides some weight to the P2W argument. If ascended gear was inaccessible in WvW then that would be a different story.

The developers made a conscious decision to include ascended gear in WvW for logistical reasons; even though it went against everything they originally stood for.

I can’t agree. There have been gear imbalances in WvW since the first exotic was bought/earned in PvE and was taken into WvW. There are probably people wearing blues in WvW even as I type.

It’s always been possible to buy gems, convert to gold and buy better gear. The only thing that changed with Ascended is that the price-tag for the “better gear” went up. If gems-for-gold is “Pay to win” in WvW, it’s always been that way. It didn’t become that way with Ascended.

what i realy like in this game: its depense on your skill and decisions how good are you. the skill balance is not perfect but you can start and lvl up any time a new alt within a week easyli.
all i miss is profession balance

The OP used a misleading title to get more views then complains because people respond to topic. OP seems to state that that skins should be put out in pve as often as the gem store. Since gold can be converted to gems you can get them through pve. I say use a more accurate title next time to avoid off topic discussion

That’s all very well and good but you see I think we are missing something here OP. You can buy the gems for gold which you make in the game doing things. Essentially you are can still be playing the game and then getting your reward for it without any real life monetary input.

If they made copies of the skins in the cash shop and then offered them at an item vendor for ‘x’ amount of gold each, would this feel different? Possibly. But it would be the same thing. Do some dungeons, use that gold to buy gems to buy skins instead of do some dungeons, use that gold to buy skins.

angelpaladin.7921:

Maybe this will clear up my original post in my eye’s P2Win mean’s buying your end game. This game the end game is cosmetic’s there is no super powerful end boss or any super hard dungeon that needs gear. I almost personally prefer for them to sell stat exotic sets on the Trade Post for 800gem’s. Then add all the skin’s into the game.

The average player can fully exotic out in less then a day. I am not saying add ascended only exotic.

That is even more subjective, not P2W. P2W is where you can clearly see that A is greater than B. If it’s subjective, i.e. different strokes for different folks, it doesn’t fall as P2W. In fact, your endgame is different than mine, totally subjective!

For simplicity:
If you buy an item that gives you 1000dps (and without it, you can only do 100dps) and you can only get that by spending real money, then yes. If no one can deny that something is better than another thing, it’s P2W.

If you buy an item that makes you think you look pretty, but others looks at you like a fool coz in their eyes you look like a clown, then it’s not P2W. (Personally, those toxic shoulder and gloves are super ugly for me, but super pretty for others, so in my eyes those who bought it made themselves ugly)

I have seen forumers says some Legendary are “ugly” (and even Anet improved some of them) and in that case, you can’t say P2W coz you got ugly instead of looking pretty (which in your case is, WIN).

There is nothing wrong with looking at something from a different point of view or seeing things in a different light.

Hopefully people can understand that just because I look at the game in a different way then the majority, it makes me no less right or wrong. It just means I have a different way of taking the information I am given and processing it.

angelpaladin.7921:

There is nothing wrong with looking at something from a different point of view or seeing things in a different light.

Hopefully people can understand that just because I look at the game in a different way then the majority, it makes me no less right or wrong. It just means I have a different way of taking the information I am given and processing it.

The meaning of words and phrases certainly evolve over time. An individual can certainly take a phrase to mean whatever he wants to. That doesn’t mean he can communicate using that phrase, or that others will agree with his definition. The thread title has caused this thread to be derailed many times. Trying to force the definition of the phrase “Pay to win” to evolve is an interesting choice, if what you’re really after is a discussion of your dislike for the gem store and the way the developer is handling cosmetics.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

But everyone has a different end game. If your end game is WvW,that has nothing to do with skins. If your end game is making a legendary through playing (as opposed to buying it) that also has nothing to do with the gem store.

I have two legendaries and I’m working on a third, but the stuff I bought from the gem shop has nothing to do with them.

If someone wants to buy a legendary then for them, sure, the end game would be buying a legendary…but I personally don’t see the point of that. I’d rather wait and get it.

“If your end game is making a legendary through playing (as opposed to buying it) that also has nothing to do with the gem store.”
Problem is that thats almost impossible because you cant really farm for the ingredients. You need to farm for the gold. Then again that is more a subject for the gold = everything thread. Except for the fact that then gem > gold option is (one of) the reason(s) why Anet wants the gold = everything.

WvW players would indeed have the least problem with this from the gem-store is this game. At the same time, because they are the least connected to the gem-store they also get less attention then the PvE section. So in that way the gem-store does effect them but not so much in a game-play way. It’s then maybe also np wonder that many of the people that do stay for a longer period seem to be very active in WvW.

It is possible, if you see it as an ultra long term goal, which I do. I’m working on the dreamer now. It’s going to take me ages….and that’s okay. Because I’m doing other stuff and having fun while I slowly acquire what I need to make it.

Numbers are objective. If you pay for something that increases your dps and if it is only available to people who shell cash, that is pay to win, coz you will kill pve mobs faster than the others, or you will pwn in wvwvw better than the others.

While….

Skins are subjective. if you pay for something that i think is uglier than what i have, then it’s obviously not paying to win. it’s not pay to win and the sad part is that you paid to lose, in my books. If say Bitfrost will be available for 30,000 gems in gemstore, i won’t buy it coz it makes my guardian effeminate. And if you buy it for your male guardian coz for the prestige, I will still think that it is ugly or inappropriate for male guards, unless you roleplay a gay guard or something.

lol @ p2w. do u even know what p2w means?
p2w means u get a special skill or dps booster in the gem store. lets say a rune that is super powerful, but u can only get it with gems or a healing skill that is better than healing signet but only for gems. it will give u advantage in pvp if u use gems, so then it is p2w, not because of skins.
of course the gem store should offer great skins but this is all cosmetics and nothing else. and yeah u get unlimited gathering tools which is fine as it doesent affect skill balance.

I am still waiting on a response on what I need to buy to win…

what do you win?

^^; Well I won the right for my sylvari to look like a human in cultural T3! I’d been thinking about rerolling her to a human for a long time now just for that armor set…

Please don’t post links to the post about it being changed~ I know it’s going to happen I’m just enjoying it while I can

did that give you a competitive advantage over the other players?

Totally… Visual psychological tactics went WAY up!

angelpaladin.7921:

There is nothing wrong with looking at something from a different point of view or seeing things in a different light.

Hopefully people can understand that just because I look at the game in a different way then the majority, it makes me no less right or wrong. It just means I have a different way of taking the information I am given and processing it.

I agree, it is not wrong if you see things in a different light. However, your view is not only different, it is completely wrong in and of itself. You can’t even counter my argument on why something that is subjective IS NOT PAY TO WIN aka what you thought is a WIN is actually a LOSE. Your only defense is you see that in a different light, guess what, you actually failed to see the light in this case.

Pay to win is when you bought something, that no one can deny, gives you an absolute and factual advantage over those who don’t spend the same amount of real money. If you still can’t see it, then good luck as I have already said my piece.

If aesthetics are ‘pay to win’ in GW2, I couldn’t care less. Let it be.

the majority of other cashshop games are pay to win. Imagine GW2 where you can boost your damage in WvW/PvP with a cashshop item. Or a exp booster that doubles what you gain, and lasts for a month. Or increase mystic forge luck with an item from the gemstore. Or ascended material can only be bought with gems. <—Those are ‘pay to win’ perks, and the games that do that die a slow painful death.

I never want to see GW2 turn into a pay to win, and I’m happy they’re not. The cashshop is balanced in the gameplay. I would never have bought GW2 if it was a pay to win.

Where have you been? The game’s endgame circle around cosmetics and all we get are weapon and armor set skins on the gemshop, and fine trans stones costing money. (With a funny bonus that the lowest price give you 5 stones, when there is 6 equipment slots).

It doesn’t help that most of the skins are hidden behind a RNG lottery, with the BLC chests, and BLC keys mysteriously stopped dropping in pve months ago. That’s some Perfect World and Maple Story tier of cashshop exploitation.

I agree that the main focus in this game is perhaps appearances. But putting skins in the Gem Store is in no way making it a Pay 2 Win, since what do you.. win? It doesn’t make you perform better than the next person. You won’t have a easier time in WvW/sPvP against your opponents, nor will you kill something faster, just because you look fancy. Right? Maybe cleavage can help distract your opponents.

The game also does have vertical progression now. However small it may be. If you wish to min-max completely, to be the absolutely best and have a every so tiny slight edge on your opponents in terms of stats (in other words, nothing to do with your ability to play the profession/game), you are able to do so through Ascended. If you have all your trinkets Ascended, where as your opponent hasn’t, you get a slight edge. Want to get that slightly better edge improved, get your Ascended weapons (with the right stats). Add to that the expensive +5 <stat here> Infusions (no, the easy to get +4 doesn’t cut it), and you get an even greater (minuscule) edge.

There is vertical progression. It’s tiny, barely noticeable, but it’s there. And yes, skins are what we are mainly pursuing in a sense. But skins doesn’t make you win. P2W doesn’t fit for this. And you know, you can actually work for your Gold in-game, doing various contents, to convert that Gold to Gems, if you don’t wish to support the game through real-world transactions to purchase the Gems instead. It’s perfectly possible to get these skins by playing the game too.

angelpaladin.7921:

maybe they should add more stat item’s that are easily obtainable anyway to the gem store. Maybe a generic set of exotics for 800gems. That can be gotten for new alts or toon’s would be far more appropriate then the current trend of cosmetic items in this game.

Logic is not your friend. What you just described would indeed make the game P2W.

There is no content in any section of the game, that requires you to look cosmetically pleasing. Therefore, you can not pay to win via the gem store.

Please never post on the forums again.

Khisanth.2948:

If only these new skins had looks worth caring about.

Yah, I’ve LOOKED for reasons to buy stuff on the Gem Store – either the prices are too high for what you gain or the skins look too bad to justify the cost – depending upon how you look at it (no pun intended).

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

But everyone has a different end game. If your end game is WvW,that has nothing to do with skins. If your end game is making a legendary through playing (as opposed to buying it) that also has nothing to do with the gem store.

I have two legendaries and I’m working on a third, but the stuff I bought from the gem shop has nothing to do with them.

If someone wants to buy a legendary then for them, sure, the end game would be buying a legendary…but I personally don’t see the point of that. I’d rather wait and get it.

“If your end game is making a legendary through playing (as opposed to buying it) that also has nothing to do with the gem store.”
Problem is that thats almost impossible because you cant really farm for the ingredients. You need to farm for the gold. Then again that is more a subject for the gold = everything thread. Except for the fact that then gem > gold option is (one of) the reason(s) why Anet wants the gold = everything.

WvW players would indeed have the least problem with this from the gem-store is this game. At the same time, because they are the least connected to the gem-store they also get less attention then the PvE section. So in that way the gem-store does effect them but not so much in a game-play way. It’s then maybe also np wonder that many of the people that do stay for a longer period seem to be very active in WvW.

It is possible, if you see it as an ultra long term goal, which I do. I’m working on the dreamer now. It’s going to take me ages….and that’s okay. Because I’m doing other stuff and having fun while I slowly acquire what I need to make it.

I am doing that exactly like you but at the same then you can’t really say you are working on it. It’s more like, I make sure not to spend any of the needed materials and see later how many of the materials I have. And then we haven’t talked about the pre-cursor that I got from a friend. I did not get a single precursor as drop myself and most people who do seem to get them from the MF. What means farming for rares and throwing them in there what is in a way similar to farming for gold and buying it. So because it’s so long term it’s not really that you are working towards it. If you know what I mean.

The only way to really work towards it id with a gold-grind.

Frenk the Vile.2596:

Ok, you know what? If the endgame in GW2 is getting skins, and skins are sold only for gems, then i can call it P2W. The reason is simple: ’’winning’’ isn’t a thing about killing others in this game…is about looking better. You say ascended made this a vertical progression? C’mon. I have as much gold as a bum, but i have my ascended weapons…you can CRAFT THEM. And the sum of stats(among them) is always the same, so that’s NOT vertical progression.

Then how would you explain someone like me who thinks the gem store skins aren’t as good as skins you can obtain via other means. Buying the gem store skins = winning? How? I don’t even like them, if I bought them, would I be better off? I would be worse off because now I would be out money on items that are inferior to others. It’s too subjective to say that because the end-game of GW2 is skins and that some skins are offered on gemstore, that therefore the game is P2W. If they sold all skins (dungeon, legendary, ascended, cultural, etc) on gem store, then yes that would be P2W, but it isn’t like that so the argument is extremely weak at best.

I find your point does not strongly prove that gw2 is p2w(cosmetic). But I read a interesting thread somewhere else and it sounds right to me. I will just drop the link and op here.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/400656/page/1

“(Since almost all no-sub mmo removed, or does not even have, over-powered cash items, the P2W in my point of view has became how a cash player could save a great amount of time over a free player.)
Am I the only one who is thinking about this? For instance, with the newly introduced sellable agony resistence and increasing rate for gem to gold, a cash player could easily obtain almost all available pve gears(any stats) instantly. There are also many other ways to spend you real money in gw2 to gain a time lead. Due to the low gold-reward rate with the punishment from DR, free players need to spend so long on either grinding dungeons or farming gold in order to achieve the same.
Although I already got what I wanted after excessively and repetitively doing some contents, I really feel bad about the situation that new players will face.”

Devata.6589:

snip

Very well said. I second that.

Ping.5739:

I find your point does not strongly prove that gw2 is p2w(cosmetic). But I read a interesting thread somewhere else and it sounds right to me. I will just drop the link and op here.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/400656/page/1

“(Since almost all no-sub mmo removed, or does not even have, over-powered cash items, the P2W in my point of view has became how a cash player could save a great amount of time over a free player.)
Am I the only one who is thinking about this? For instance, with the newly introduced sellable agony resistence and increasing rate for gem to gold, a cash player could easily obtain almost all available pve gears(any stats) instantly. There are also many other ways to spend you real money in gw2 to gain a time lead. Due to the low gold-reward rate with the punishment from DR, free players need to spend so long on either grinding dungeons or farming gold in order to achieve the same.
Although I already got what I wanted after excessively and repetitively doing some contents, I really feel bad about the situation that new players will face.”

Pay to save time != pay to win. Pay to win has a concrete definition so it does not change with each persons discretion. If you were to argue the cash shop is pay to save time then I would agree but we are arguing if it is pay for a statistical advantage only obtainable through the use of real money. Even if GW2 did offer +5 power on the gem store it isn’t technically pay to win because it can be obtained through in game money as well by converting to gems. Make another thread if you wish to discuss pay to look good or pay to save time but this is discussing pay to win which the game clearly is not.
Side note: the devs stated long ago that they purposefully added gem to gold conversion for people who have more money than time so pay to save time is working as intended

Heta.8629:

Ping.5739:

I find your point does not strongly prove that gw2 is p2w(cosmetic). But I read a interesting thread somewhere else and it sounds right to me. I will just drop the link and op here.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/400656/page/1

“(Since almost all no-sub mmo removed, or does not even have, over-powered cash items, the P2W in my point of view has became how a cash player could save a great amount of time over a free player.)
Am I the only one who is thinking about this? For instance, with the newly introduced sellable agony resistence and increasing rate for gem to gold, a cash player could easily obtain almost all available pve gears(any stats) instantly. There are also many other ways to spend you real money in gw2 to gain a time lead. Due to the low gold-reward rate with the punishment from DR, free players need to spend so long on either grinding dungeons or farming gold in order to achieve the same.
Although I already got what I wanted after excessively and repetitively doing some contents, I really feel bad about the situation that new players will face.”

Pay to save time != pay to win. Pay to win has a concrete definition so it does not change with each persons discretion. If you were to argue the cash shop is pay to save time then I would agree but we are arguing if it is pay for a statistical advantage only obtainable through the use of real money. Even if GW2 did offer +5 power on the gem store it isn’t technically pay to win because it can be obtained through in game money as well by converting to gems. Make another thread if you wish to discuss pay to look good or pay to save time but this is discussing pay to win which the game clearly is not.
Side note: the devs stated long ago that they purposefully added gem to gold conversion for people who have more money than time so pay to save time is working as intended

Twerk is in oxford dictionary, that word you use for homosexual does not mean happy anymore, and I don’t know whether we should revise definition of p2w or not.

Ping.5739:

Heta.8629:

Ping.5739:

I find your point does not strongly prove that gw2 is p2w(cosmetic). But I read a interesting thread somewhere else and it sounds right to me. I will just drop the link and op here.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/400656/page/1

“(Since almost all no-sub mmo removed, or does not even have, over-powered cash items, the P2W in my point of view has became how a cash player could save a great amount of time over a free player.)
Am I the only one who is thinking about this? For instance, with the newly introduced sellable agony resistence and increasing rate for gem to gold, a cash player could easily obtain almost all available pve gears(any stats) instantly. There are also many other ways to spend you real money in gw2 to gain a time lead. Due to the low gold-reward rate with the punishment from DR, free players need to spend so long on either grinding dungeons or farming gold in order to achieve the same.
Although I already got what I wanted after excessively and repetitively doing some contents, I really feel bad about the situation that new players will face.”

Pay to save time != pay to win. Pay to win has a concrete definition so it does not change with each persons discretion. If you were to argue the cash shop is pay to save time then I would agree but we are arguing if it is pay for a statistical advantage only obtainable through the use of real money. Even if GW2 did offer +5 power on the gem store it isn’t technically pay to win because it can be obtained through in game money as well by converting to gems. Make another thread if you wish to discuss pay to look good or pay to save time but this is discussing pay to win which the game clearly is not.
Side note: the devs stated long ago that they purposefully added gem to gold conversion for people who have more money than time so pay to save time is working as intended

Twerk is in oxford dictionary, that word you use for homosexual does not mean happy anymore, and I don’t know whether we should revise definition of p2w or not.

Don’t need to change pay to win if pay for convenience describes it better. There are games that are truly pay to win and lumping GW2 in with those games will turn off lots of players. Call it what it is instead of forcing it into the pay to win definition.

It doesn’t matter what Anet puts in the gem store, it will never be P2W because as soon as the game crosses the line with P2W the people will need to justify why it isn’t P2W so that they can feel ok with themselves for buying it.

Before this game launched people pretty much agreed it would be P2W if there was no way to aquire gem store armors through in game means

Once it was obvious that wasn’t the case, P2W was then redefined as cosmetics only are ok but any non cosmetic would be P2W.

Once “convenience” items were introduced the goal post for P2W was moved again. Now both cosmetic and convenience items are ok but stat advantages are still a no-no.

Once you point out that in the gem store you can get boosters to give a 5-10% stat advantage over other players who don’t purchase them (in WvW and PvE) the goal post is moved yet again since you need to gamble with real money to get them and can’t purchase them directly (I don’t follow the logic at all here, but that’s what they say). Now cosmetic, convenience and rng stat boosts are ok, but stats on gear are not ok.

I suspect in another 3 months they will introduce ascended armor into the gem store. At that point the bar for P2W will be moved to be “it’s ok to have the top tier gear in the gem store as long as it isn’t better than the top gear”

The process will just continue and you will never get people to admit that the game has been P2W for a long time because that means they are buying the things they claim to despise so they will justify themselves until the ends of the earth if they need to.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It doesn’t matter what Anet puts in the gem store, it will never be P2W because as soon as the game crosses the line with P2W the people will need to justify why it isn’t P2W so that they can feel ok with themselves for buying it.

Before this game launched people pretty much agreed it would be P2W if there was no way to aquire gem store armors through in game means

Once it was obvious that wasn’t the case, P2W was then redefined as cosmetics only are ok but any non cosmetic would be P2W.

Once “convenience” items were introduced the goal post for P2W was moved again. Now both cosmetic and convenience items are ok but stat advantages are still a no-no.

Once you point out that in the gem store you can get boosters to give a 5-10% stat advantage over other players who don’t purchase them (in WvW and PvE) the goal post is moved yet again since you need to gamble with real money to get them and can’t purchase them directly (I don’t follow the logic at all here, but that’s what they say). Now cosmetic, convenience and rng stat boosts are ok, but stats on gear are not ok.

I suspect in another 3 months they will introduce ascended armor into the gem store. At that point the bar for P2W will be moved to be “it’s ok to have the top tier gear in the gem store as long as it isn’t better than the top gear”

The process will just continue and you will never get people to admit that the game has been P2W for a long time because that means they are buying the things they claim to despise so they will justify themselves until the ends of the earth if they need to.

Eventually it will be.. but you can transfer gold to gems so you can get everything anyway.

But to me thats not even the point. The main question to me is, do the micro-transactions influence the game in a negative way?

The answer for me clearly is yes (and thats simply because it’s the way Anet makes the money so nearly every patch has as goal selling more gems in stead of improving the game) so P2W or not, at this point the gem-store is bad for the game.

With that the idea that you help the game with buying gems is also flawed. Buying gems helps to get the game in a worse shape.

Devata.6589:

Eventually it will be.. but you can transfer gold to gems so you can get everything anyway.

But to me thats not even the point. The main question to me is, do the micro-transactions influence the game in a negative way?

The answer for me clearly is yes (and thats simply because it’s the way Anet makes the money so nearly every patch has as goal selling more gems in stead of improving the game) so P2W or not, at this point the gem-store is bad for the game.

With that the idea that you help the game with buying gems is also flawed. Buying gems helps to get the game in a worse shape.

I agree. The game is suffering because new content is designed with the gem store as the focus, not the game. In games with a monthly sub you have artificial time gates such as once a week raiding to keep people around, but the quality of the content is high since it is what keeps people playing. With the gem store we see the in-game content suffering in a different way.

1.Speed of updates is prioritized over quality in order to get more items in the gem store
2.In-game rewards are of lower quality and are often the same item slot over and over to promote buying higher quality items in the gem store.
3. Expansions are ignored because low quality fast paced updates with no meaningful content provide the same income for a fraction of the work.
4. End-game rewards are generally grindy and shallow since they want you to get the gem store equivalent instead of earning it through skill/time.
5. RNG rules supreme because people always spend more on gambling than they do on one time purchases.

Now that i’ve seen both models I will certainly promote a monthly fee over this style of game.

Devata.6589:

Eventually it will be.. but you can transfer gold to gems so you can get everything anyway.

But to me thats not even the point. The main question to me is, do the micro-transactions influence the game in a negative way?

The answer for me clearly is yes (and thats simply because it’s the way Anet makes the money so nearly every patch has as goal selling more gems in stead of improving the game) so P2W or not, at this point the gem-store is bad for the game.

With that the idea that you help the game with buying gems is also flawed. Buying gems helps to get the game in a worse shape.

Not sure how you come to your conclusions here. Microtransactions are 1) optional and 2) mainly cosmetic. So when you claim the Gem Store affects the game in a negative way, please explain how. The game updates content regardless if you buy Gems or not. Anet fixes bugs for everyone, not just people who buy Gems. And content themed Gem Store goods that are promoted with updates are still optional. Marjory’s dagger looked awesome, but I’m not forced to buy them.

I know of people who spent not a single penny on Gems. They converted in game Gold for in game Gems. Did that make them better players? Nope. Did it make them happy to have new cosmetic items? Sure. Don’t see the negative here.

As for people like me to buy Gems with RL currency. Did that make me a better player? Nope. Did it make me happy? Sure. Again, where are the negatives?

There are many types of players in this game. And among those players are people who have disposable income. If they choose to support Anet through microtransactions, that only helps everyone, since in reality, the game company is a business. And businesses exist to make money.

buy gem>turn it in to gold>buy precursor>?>profit
i don’t think any avg player would ever have the gold to purchase any gs dagger sword precursor.