Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

sawworm.8749:

I love how dynamic the boss fights in FF14 and punishing. All the bosses have patterns, if you mess up just one thing either you got one shot or your party got wiped out. It’s incredible fun, also all big boss fights have hard and extreme versions to provide even more challenge.

Also the fan service is great in FF14, they bring all the lovely stuff from previous FF titles, in February they are bringing “Triple Triad” mini game and casino stuff! Gosh! I love Triple Triad.

I wish we’ll get permanent SAB as well ;_; Fun > Grinding for me.

I don’t know why anyone finds one shot or your party gets wiped out fun. I find that sort of thing frustrating.

I suspect (though I can’t prove) the majority of people would find it frustrating as well.

Generally because it requires knowledge, awareness, and teamwork to accomplish.

Having done many of the GW2 dungeons, I rarely really felt like I was part of a team working together, rather than just a very small zerg, stacking up in one spot and hitting dodge at the right time. It’s probably not helped by the fact that most dungeons can be soloed, unless there’s a rare mechanic which actually requires multiple people (the activation plates to stand on in Arah, or the laser room in CoE).

sawworm.8749:

I love how dynamic the boss fights in FF14 and punishing. All the bosses have patterns, if you mess up just one thing either you got one shot or your party got wiped out. It’s incredible fun, also all big boss fights have hard and extreme versions to provide even more challenge.

Hmmm. I don’t yet know how the EX fights go, but I do know without dodge I find it hard to get out of AoE markers in FF14 before the attack goes off. For whatever reason I don’t have that problem with hit detection in GW2. It’s just . . . cleaner, that way.

I’ve died or been smacked around too much by AoEs I was trying to get out of and “didn’t make it” during story missions I really don’t like the combat in FF14 anymore. Add to it they make you stand completely still to cast even short-charge spells? I just really had a bad taste for it in comparison to GW2. Or even GW1.

Also the fan service is great in FF14, they bring all the lovely stuff from previous FF titles, in February they are bringing “Triple Triad” mini game and casino stuff! Gosh! I love Triple Triad.

I liked Tetra Master more. Felt like I had more control and less relying on luck. But, well, that’s personal preference.

I like the continuity nods or references (seriously, “fan service” means something you probably didn’t mean ). But the occasional reference quest line for the limited-time anniversary things? A bit overboard and silly.

Filaha.1678:

Having done many of the GW2 dungeons, I rarely really felt like I was part of a team working together, rather than just a very small zerg, stacking up in one spot and hitting dodge at the right time.

Strange, most runs I go on with dungeons rarely do that. I think twice it’s been the choice of handling an encounter – once in AC vs the spider queen and once in Cliffside with the Cultist Leader. Anywhere else? Do as you like, just don’t get dead.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sawworm.8749:

I love how dynamic the boss fights in FF14 and punishing. All the bosses have patterns, if you mess up just one thing either you got one shot or your party got wiped out. It’s incredible fun, also all big boss fights have hard and extreme versions to provide even more challenge.

Hmmm. I don’t yet know how the EX fights go, but I do know without dodge I find it hard to get out of AoE markers in FF14 before the attack goes off. For whatever reason I don’t have that problem with hit detection in GW2. It’s just . . . cleaner, that way.

I’ve died or been smacked around too much by AoEs I was trying to get out of and “didn’t make it” during story missions I really don’t like the combat in FF14 anymore. Add to it they make you stand completely still to cast even short-charge spells? I just really had a bad taste for it in comparison to GW2. Or even GW1.

Also the fan service is great in FF14, they bring all the lovely stuff from previous FF titles, in February they are bringing “Triple Triad” mini game and casino stuff! Gosh! I love Triple Triad.

I liked Tetra Master more. Felt like I had more control and less relying on luck. But, well, that’s personal preference.

I like the continuity nods or references (seriously, “fan service” means something you probably didn’t mean ). But the occasional reference quest line for the limited-time anniversary things? A bit overboard and silly.

I hardly remember Tetra Master even I’m huge fan of FF9. Hehe, I meant references that any old FF fan would love, not that kind of anime fan service

sawworm.8749:

I hardly remember Tetra Master even I’m huge fan of FF9.

Yeah, if there’s anything which made me rage in that game, it was Tetra Master. Not Ozma. Tetra Master.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Filaha.1678:

Having done many of the GW2 dungeons, I rarely really felt like I was part of a team working together, rather than just a very small zerg, stacking up in one spot and hitting dodge at the right time.

Strange, most runs I go on with dungeons rarely do that. I think twice it’s been the choice of handling an encounter – once in AC vs the spider queen and once in Cliffside with the Cultist Leader. Anywhere else? Do as you like, just don’t get dead.

Right, do as you like, just don’t die. No real teamwork required in the one PVE place where teamwork should be a necessity.

The fact of the self-sustenance that every class has rather ruins the whole point of MMOs for me, and that’s requiring teamwork. Why work as a team when you can effectively work alone because no matter what you’re playing, you’re designed to be able to survive alone? And if you don’t need to work as a team for anything, why play a MMO?

This thread just needs to be locked. Everyone giving their subjective opinions on games they prefer over the other gets you nowhere.

Actually, taken in the right spirit, a comparison between two games (so long as one of them is GW2) yield valuable information.

Filaha.1678:

Right, do as you like, just don’t die. No real teamwork required in the one PVE place where teamwork should be a necessity.

Well, there’s one of the problems with “necessity”. See, there’s a point where you need to decide just how much you want an average player to make it through. Assuming, of course, they’re conscious and attentive. Where exactly do you draw the line at “this is for the people who want a challenge” versus “we want most people to be able to get past this”.

Requiring teamwork runs into two problems: first, everyone has to already know the fight and what’s going to happen. I swear, I run too often into “you should already know this before your first run” and that’s annoying. Secondly, most often the part about ‘requiring teamwork’ runs into ‘and if they can’t then it is unforgiving and will wipe them’ . . . and I really prefer not to have to do a dungeon where there is zero (or close to zero) amount of straying from a checklist or else you’re doomed . . .

The fact of the self-sustenance that every class has rather ruins the whole point of MMOs for me, and that’s requiring teamwork. Why work as a team when you can effectively work alone because no matter what you’re playing, you’re designed to be able to survive alone? And if you don’t need to work as a team for anything, why play a MMO?

Well, having been the person who plays the cleric because the group needs one and you can’t do anything without the healer? Yeah, it’s not something too attractive. I remember having two characters and my alt was the cleric . . . and the one which got the most play because he could always get a group.

Then there’s tabletop, where I swear it’s in every group’s unspoken rules: you have to be able to handle themselves for a round of combat or otherwise stay out of it. Squishy wizard? Don’t be too squishy, then.

It’s refreshing to be able to play a character and know I am not defenseless. And gods know I’m not happy playing a Conjurer in FF14 and having little to no luck taking things even one level lower :P

Coopziana.1802:

Basically the long and short of it is… Guild Wars 2 is much better than Final Fantasy online. But equally Anet could learn a few things from NCSoft.

The End

Anet is owned by ncsoft….

And it’s the other way around, ncsoft could learn something from Anet.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, there’s one of the problems with “necessity”. See, there’s a point where you need to decide just how much you want an average player to make it through. Assuming, of course, they’re conscious and attentive. Where exactly do you draw the line at “this is for the people who want a challenge” versus “we want most people to be able to get past this”.

…

It’s refreshing to be able to play a character and know I am not defenseless. And gods know I’m not happy playing a Conjurer in FF14 and having little to no luck taking things even one level lower :P

Needing teamwork =/= super hard.

Here’s an example of something that may require teamwork but isn’t necessarily super hard.

Let’s say there’s a boss which can easily kick you into next week… if he hits you. However, during that boss fight, you can pick up this bundle on the floor, let’s say it’s his favourite shiny. It’s a Skritt. A giant Skritt. With like infinity stacks of Might.
So fighting this giant Skritt would be hard normally, except anyone that picks up his favourite shiny (herein referred to as FS) will have him specifically chase after them. They’re not able to use any skills while carrying it, and can only run. However, the FS is a big shiny, and will tire the person out while carrying it, causing their movement speed to drop every few seconds while carrying it.

The only skill you have while carrying the FS is Toss, which will toss it to whichever player you have targetted. Then the boss chases that person. The person that recently held the FS has to rest to get their stamina back, so they don’t want to have it passed right back to them. And maybe the giant Skritt gets annoyed and faster every time it’s tossed (possibly dropping after X seconds), so you can’t just keep tossing it back and forth or his speed goes up so high that he practically teleports to you after a few tosses.

So the fight consists of a big game of Keep Away with rotating carrying the FS among each person while the others have a chance to hit the single-minded giant Skritt.

Teamwork without being overly hard.

Or how about one where you pick up a special bundle gun which gives you a set of skills, one of which will lock the boss in place (maybe root the player or be channeled or whatever) but has a lengthy cooldown, requiring a rotation of uses of the skill while the others attack.

Again, teamwork without being hard.

Teamwork also =/= pre-defined roles.

Even something as simple as an unavoidable attack that will instantly down one person, requiring everyone else to rush over and pick them up, puts a focus on working together rather than just all hitting the same target with whatever because why not.

FFXIV has a huge variety of mechanics which don’t necessarily have anything to do with role, but require teamwork. For example, the last boss of Halatali HM, who’ll lock two of your members in place and start casting a huge damage spell, and those unchained need to interact with an object to free those chained so they can run out. Doesn’t matter what class you are, you just have to be able to work together. Or earlier in the same dungeon, the first boss that requires you to activate an object that will put a barrier on you to protect you from its super attack. Again, doesn’t matter which class does it, just as long as someone does.

Both of those are examples of mechanics which can easily translate into this game to enforce teamwork without simply being “harder” and without requiring specific roles. For example, say, a fight with some Inquest who trap your teammates in a chamber and you have to rush over and hit the release button before they get experimented on and turned into quaggans forever.

In another game I play trinity play is optional because characters have even more potential for self sufficiency than is the case here. One of the early additions was a boss fight that had some degree of difficulty (negated over time as people learned the fight and character builds became more efficient).

Any character could take a guaranteed aggro advantage on an attack. Similarly any character could take an ability that provided 90% damage reduction for several seconds (with a very long cooldown). Some players developed what I called "wolfpack"’tactics where everyone went glass cannon with two of us taking turns holding aggro for as long as our aggro magnet and damage reduction lasted. A self heal while the other held aggro got one back up to full health in time to take aggro again. The aggro magnet skill only required a split second to use, and characters could use active blocking against the heaviest hits, so all characters could focus on DPSing the boss down.

It required teamwork, some small amount of coordination, wasnt particularly difficult, but could be very fun

Look, I get it about teamwork not being required to be super difficult. But I was in the raiding CDI and most people seemed convinced anything which required teamwork or “roles” needed to be raid-level hard and only the best at it should work out.

But the thing is, I’ve seen it crop up in games which have even less defined roles than Guild Wars 2. The Achievement Hunters is an example with their makeshift heists in GTA Online . . . no I’m not linking, they’re decidedly not PG-13. People can and will come up with stuff in the absence of actual required teamwork just to entertain themselves.

From that, I present it to be on the players to decide not to behave that way and just take the path of least resistance. It’s an understandable thing, though.