Guild Wars 2

People are trying to take Vayne seriously now? lmao

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto isn’t talking about gear grind as you’ve claimed it is on numerous occasions. Now you’re just backpedaling. Credible much?

It’s hard to take seriously someone who doesn’t even read what he’s replying to.

Do you remember the argument you use the most? “ArenaNet released clarification with the Manifesto”, although you never link it?

Well, ArenaNet did release clarification. It’s a blog entry called “Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto”, which clarifies – use your m4d 3dit0r skills here to get this – the Manifesto video.

And what does the written Manifesto say? That the game wouldn’t have grind for fun rewards. Guess what are rewards in the game? Hint: ArenaNet has just released a blog about it, and yes, it includes gear.

Really, it takes a lot of denial to not see this. The Manifesto was wrong. Even the clarification of the Manifesto was wrong.

There’s zero to link. It was posted to guru at the very least, and it was in the old blog. And I also added that there were TWO YEARS of extra commentary by Anet after the manifesto which you continually ignore. Even someone who isn’t paying that much attention probably could have figured out what the manifesto was about if they cared to look into it.

But to look at a five minute video and bring it up three years later as a lie, using out of context single lines, and a theory not supported by the manifesto seems a whole lot like an agenda to me.

There’s nothing in the manifesto that talks about gear at all. Period.

Vayne.8563:

And I also added that there were TWO YEARS of extra commentary by Anet after the manifesto which you continually ignore.

And you are ignoring the comentary you are talking about yourself. The blog entry talking specifically about the Manifesto, which acts as proof that the grind described in the Manifesto isn’t level grind (which isn’t mentioned even once in the video, for the records), rather the grind to get the fun stuff, including fun rewards. Those are ArenaNet words, not mine. You can choose to ignore reality in front of your face, considering how strong your agenda about this is.

But the fact stands: as any good editor would see, the Manifesto has been proven to be a lie. ArenaNet changed their mind. What we have isn’t what we were told we would have.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

And I also added that there were TWO YEARS of extra commentary by Anet after the manifesto which you continually ignore.

And you are ignoring the comentary you are talking about yourself. The blog entry talking specifically about the Manifesto, which acts as proof that the grind described in the Manifesto isn’t level grind (which isn’t mentioned even once in the video, for the records), rather the grind to get the fun stuff, including fun rewards. Those are ArenaNet words, not mine. You can choose to ignore reality in front of your face, considering how strong your agenda about this is.

But the fact stands: as any good editor would see, the Manifesto has been proven to be a lie. ArenaNet changed their mind. What we have isn’t what we were told we would have.

The manifesto is beyond your ability to understand. Even if it was incorrect (and I don’t believe that it is) the ONLY way (and it is the only way) you can claim it’s a lie if if you can prove it wasn’t the INTENT of the devs.

As pointed out about a dozen times, a manifesto is a statement of intent. So if it was intended, then it can’t be a lie. You have zero proof that what was said in the manifesto wasn’t intended, therefore you have zero proof of a lie. Simple, plain English.

And you still ignore other quotes, such as when Anet has said directly there would be things to grind for. How do you account for ignoring that?

I posted it earlier but deserves a repost:

This is the line you are basing your argument on:

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

I don’t see any need to GRIND in this game for FUTURE fun reward, nor GRIND to prepare to have fun. I don’t get what you don’t get about the line. Last I checked you can go for the fun rewards without the need to GRIND beforehand. You don’t need to GRIND to get a specific set, a specific armor, a specific skill, a specific anything before you can start earning the FUN REWARDS.

That little word, future, makes a little difference don’t you think? IT doesn’t say you don’t have to GRIND for fun rewards, it says you don’t have to GRIND for FUTURE fun rewards. Meaning there is no GRIND in the game to start… grinding for the fun rewards.

Guild Missions, World Bosses, Dailies, and even dungeons can offer the Fun Rewards and you can start doing them quickly, without the need to GRIND anything before that.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

And I also added that there were TWO YEARS of extra commentary by Anet after the manifesto which you continually ignore.

And you are ignoring the comentary you are talking about yourself. The blog entry talking specifically about the Manifesto, which acts as proof that the grind described in the Manifesto isn’t level grind (which isn’t mentioned even once in the video, for the records), rather the grind to get the fun stuff, including fun rewards. Those are ArenaNet words, not mine. You can choose to ignore reality in front of your face, considering how strong your agenda about this is.

But the fact stands: as any good editor would see, the Manifesto has been proven to be a lie. ArenaNet changed their mind. What we have isn’t what we were told we would have.

Okay I went and looked at the thread you linked. Aside from the fact that it’s all pretty much STILL true, this is the ONLY line that talks about reward in the entire thing….

“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

A single paragraph taken out of an entire section about combat and making the game fun.

This actually proves what I said on two counts. First, it proves you take things completely out of context, and two, this clarification is probably more accurate in details than the video manifesto.

In other words, you haven’t done your argument any favors by posting that link. It doesn’t support anything you’ve said prior to this.

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

There’s zero in that paragraph that takes about gear. You’ve simply read into it what you want.

And more and more people are seeing what Anet actually means there, which is what they said they’ve meant several times since. Why argue against something Anet has already clarified?

Really?

Ok, let’s read the clarification:

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

“Fun reward” = gear, for example.

Ergo, guess what Vayne? And, for the records, this has been mentioned in this topic already.

A good editor would have noticed it.

The quotes are…

It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun

and

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment

Which are both true.

If you have fun by getting pretty gear, note that you’re having fun by getting pretty gear. If you enjoy having pretty gear, then you should work for that pretty gear. This isn’t World of Spoonfeed where if you think leveling is too slow, you can call up Support and get to max level with decent gear. This is Guild Wars 2, where aesthetics are the horizontal grind. Meaning if you want to have that look, you gotta work for that look. But it doesn’t give you an advantage over other players, so you can still play the game without that look.

tl;dr: Just because you don’t look pretty ingame doesn’t mean you can’t play the game.

Esplen.3940:

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

There’s zero in that paragraph that takes about gear. You’ve simply read into it what you want.

And more and more people are seeing what Anet actually means there, which is what they said they’ve meant several times since. Why argue against something Anet has already clarified?

Really?

Ok, let’s read the clarification:

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

“Fun reward” = gear, for example.

Ergo, guess what Vayne? And, for the records, this has been mentioned in this topic already.

A good editor would have noticed it.

The quotes are…

It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun

and

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment

Which are both true.

If you have fun by getting pretty gear, note that you’re having fun by getting pretty gear. If you enjoy having pretty gear, then you should work for that pretty gear. This isn’t World of Spoonfeed where if you think leveling is too slow, you can call up Support and get to max level with decent gear. This is Guild Wars 2, where aesthetics are the horizontal grind. Meaning if you want to have that look, you gotta work for that look. But it doesn’t give you an advantage over other players, so you can still play the game without that look.

tl;dr: Just because you don’t look pretty ingame doesn’t mean you can’t play the game.

Okay how does the word “reward” in this context equal gear. Let’s think about this for a second.

That’s like a three page article with the word reward mentioned once. It’s still only talking about having fun all the way through, instead of having to grind to get to fun stuff. That’s it.

Now you may think that reward means gear, but that’s a long long stretch, considering the entire segment it’s in is about combat.

If you really wanted, and you took that paragraph out of context with everything else around it, and you pretty much ignored everything else that was said, it could conceivably mean gear…but at MOST it’s only a guess.

And it’s not a very good one.

Look everyone! Anet wrote a three page article, mentioned the word reward once (proceeded by fun, I don’t think anyone things of gear as a “fun” reward), and we’ve decided arbitrarily they’re talking about gear.

That’s not even a good try.

Zoia.3678:

Galen Grey.4709:

I know I didnt express myself really well so if you require clarifications on what i am trying to say dont hesitate to ask.

Yea, you kinda lost me when you started to bring up ectos, passion flowers and what not. I think you may be over analyzing just a tad. I still appreciate your answers and think i understand what you’re trying to say.

All i’m saying is that dailies may not be the best way when it comes to laurels.
Personally, i have plenty of time to log in every day to do my dailies, but not everyone does. For those that don’t do fractals, or are in too small a guild to do guild missions, laurels is the only way to get ascended gear.
If they can only play during the weekend on top of that, it will take a long, long time to get enough laurels to equip a character with ascended accessories. Maybe half a year or longer. There is no way for them to make up for it by playing more during the weekend.

Perhaps it would be better to get rid of the dailies and make them weekly quests? The time spent to complete a weekly should be about the same as 7 dailies. People could then choose if they wanted to spend 30 min a day or 3,5 hours during the weekend.
That or let people save up a few dailies. It would be great, even if we could only save up to 3 dailies.

Imo, daily quests are a cheap way of getting people to log on every day. If the game is fun, we will log in as often as possible because we enjoy playing it, not because they make us feel like we’re missing out if we don’t.
It would be fine if the daily rewarded only karma or gold, but not when it’s one of the few ways to get a certain currency.

Dont think it makes a difference really. if you can only log during the weekend, whether its 15 days worth of laurel or 15 days of gold or 15 days worth of karma if you’re only playing 2 days out of 7 its going to take you 3 times as much.

Weekly can be a very elegant solution, they would definitely help with people who cannot play every day. But they do have a down side in that I am sure that a lot of players who just feel pressured by dailies will get the weekly over as quickly as possible. That will probably mean 1 day of grinding. The down side of that is a very unpleasant 1 day + the feeling of 6 days wasted as you didnt do any progress towards your chosen goal. Not saying it cant work just that it might have an overall negative effect. Honestly not sure how I feel about it.

Vayne, you need to step back and read. You just argued with me for arguing for you. Your posts in this thread are degenerating in content. I hopped in to stop you both.

That line in the manifesto has got to be the most over analyzed under a microscope piece of text ever

I think a lie is taking it way too far though. Perhaps they didnt manage to achieve it your expectation but it cannot be denied that at least they tried which would still not make it a lie (personally I think they succeeded as well)

Ascended gear… you can get through dailies which you can complete by just playing any content you want in the game be it WvW, sPvP or PvE… Unless yuo find the whole game boring its entirely possible to do dialies without experiencing grind.

Legendaries… they take a ton of stuff sure but again they used stuff you find even in starter zones. Unless you just enjoy sPvP anything you feel like playing will get you closer to a legendary… it may take a long long time but there is no grind unless you choose to do it yourself. If you just enjoy sPvP you will not need a legendary of course.

Dungeon armor sets. This is something that you could argue is unavoidable grind. The 3 distinct paths though is a clear attempt to try to break the grind by offering variety. You dont have to repeat the same dungeon exactly each time, you can play each path in sequence providing some variety. There is no denying paths are there to attempt to break the grinding.

Named exotics… they take a lot of stuff… again you can go about getting those things by playing nearly every content in the game.

Personally I dont think how any one can deny that at the very least they did try to make sure there is no grind even for rewards. whether they Succeeded or not doesn’t change that if we can at least agree that that did in fact try it means they didnt lie.

Welcome to Grind Wars 2.
Where players will farm the very same dungeon-path-event all the time in a way to maximize gold income.
- New false-advertise Legendary weapons, stand out pretending you know your game when in secret you repeated the same grinding again and again and again.
- Improve your sense of frustration with the new reward system. Now champions will also laugh while they fall.
- Grow roots on your feet while playing the TP in LA. You don’t need to sharp that axe in this game. It’s all about money!
- Thinking about support? Team play? Completing content? No! Enjoy your ride with the best speed runners. You can now compete who skip more content faster while everyone shares the same stats and builds!
- New set of stats that you can ignore as well to be the best Zerk (Don’t forget your forum complain ticket with every death)
- New Forum Sections to fight and argue with the most skilled farmers. Watch out for those farming-nerf that will trigger forum users most clever arguments

bla bla bla… this game is going farther and farther from what it was advertise

Mesket.5728:

Welcome to Grind Wars 2.
Where players will farm the very same dungeon-path-event all the time in a way to maximize gold income.
- New false-advertise Legendary weapons, stand out pretending you know your game when in secret you repeated the same grinding again and again and again.
- Improve your sense of frustration with the new reward system. Now champions will also laugh while they fall.
- Grow roots on your feet while playing the TP in LA. You don’t need to sharp that axe in this game. It’s all about money!
- Thinking about support? Team play? Completing content? No! Enjoy your ride with the best speed runners. You can now compete who skip more content faster while everyone shares the same stats and builds!
- New set of stats that you can ignore as well to be the best Zerk (Don’t forget your forum complain ticket with every death)
- New Forum Sections to fight and argue with the most skilled farmers. Watch out for those farming-nerf that will trigger forum users most clever arguments

bla bla bla… this game is going farther and farther from what it was advertise

to be fair, most of what you’re listing above has just as much to do with player mentality as it does the game itself. Players are the ones who choose to run the same dungeon path all the time – players are the ones who are interested in doing nothing but making gold efficiently.

I am learning to hate that word “efficient” because that’s all we ever hear. ANet gives plenty of options to play differently, but all anyone ever does is find the most efficient means of getting what they want. If ANet try to stop this sort of behavior, people complain. Those SAME people then complain that everything is too easy. They call you “bad players” for NOT wearing zerk gear. Honestly – all of THAT is on the players, not ANet.

I’m not saying the game couldn’t improve in areas. There’s plenty of stuff that can be made better – there always is. But many of the arguments about ANet being a grindy game are infinitely exacerbated by the players themselves, who refuse to see that just because everyone runs zerker doesn’t mean you have to. But trust me, if ANet do anything to reduce the effectiveness of the zerker build, there’ll be an outcry.

Of course is massive mentality what causes the issues I mentioned. But at the same time, if you are leading what you expect to be a quality product it is up to you to drive that mentality where you want. You can’t expect the massive amount of players to drive themselves to play the game in a less rewarding way. The player mentality flows where the rules within the system feeds them better. At the end, we are all mice looking for that cheese in a maze, but it is up to the maze designers to make that fun, you can’t blame the mouse for choosing the fastest path.

I blame ANet for not punishing all zerk groups. For not having better designed boss fights where zerk players have to struggle to be able to apply that precious damage. I blame ANet for making skill combos weak, barely not needed at all. I blame them for making support roles weak, making healings weak, making damage to strong. That is failing the direction they were headed. Implementing stuff that is not used its a waste of money, energy, man hours working and designing. It can all be solved with simple tweaks of balance but instead they are adding more glowing effect to the armors until we are all blind.

I don’t play Zerk. I don’t grind. I don’t rush things, I like to explore maps and chase world bosses. I like to see a contested waypoint and free it. I like to talk to NPCs and trigger new events as I move through the maps. Unfortunately this yields very low money; but if it was otherwise? what if they balance the reward from events and champions with the dungeons? I mean, the ball is on their side, always.

Esplen.3940:

Vayne, you need to step back and read. You just argued with me for arguing for you. Your posts in this thread are degenerating in content. I hopped in to stop you both.

well, this ongoing saga just took an interesting twist….

/popcorn

Mesket.5728:

At the end, we are all mice looking for that cheese in a maze, but it is up to the maze designers to make that fun, you can’t blame the mouse for choosing the fastest path.

It’s pretty important to note that not everyone feels this way, and that Guild Wars 2 caters explicitly, however you might feel, to those who do not.

If I feel like a rat in a maze, I stop playing. Games that evoke that sensation do not appeal to me. Your analogy casts us all as mice, and claims that the average mouse can’t blame the other mice for seeking the path of least resistance.

But I have no problem begrudging players for being mice at all. I don’t speedrun COF1. When I run COF1, I don’t care what classes are in my party or what gear those party members are wearing. I don’t enslave myself to repeating content I don’t want to do because I am in search of some “cheese” that I feel I require to make the experience worthwhile. There are plenty of others like me out there as well.

This is where comments about Guild Wars 2 being designed as “grindy” or catering to addicts (or whatever equivalent inanity strikes you as relevant to this discussion) fall apart for me. I wouldn’t enjoy the game if it actually were those things, because I’m not the right type of gamer.

Put another way: I don’t want ArenaNet to design better mazes for mice. I want them to work on a videogame for human beings. Specifically, ones that tend to fall toward the middle of the curve like myself.

- You don’t need to grind to get full exotic gear once you hit 80, you can do this in a day
- At which point, due to “horizontal progression” there is nothing left to do other than go for specific gear items which you think look good, or enjoy playing for the sake of playing since there are no rewards left to entice you
- Many people play this genre of game specifically because it is a loot oriented genre – the euphoria of getting gear is the entire point of the game for them. Why do you think Diablo 1 sold a billion copies? People like getting gear.
- Every single piece of cosmetic gear is a horrific grind that makes anything in say WoW look hilariously casual
- The common defense seems to be “but you don’t have to grind, there are tons of other things you can do, you don’t need that gear”
- But remember that cosmetic gear is the only reward that this game offers at level cap due to “horizontal progression.” Getting gear is the primary motivation for a large pool of players, especially PVE only players. And the only way to get cosmetic gear is to grind

So OP is right, Anet has completely failed in its design goal of “no grinding” or, like communism, their ‘horizontal progression’ idea is something that works in theory, but when real humans and their actual wants and desires are involved, it all falls apart.

Do I have to be handheld to find the fun? Well pretty much every Sandbox MMO failed other than Eve so apparently I’m not alone in this.

Esplen.3940:

Vayne, you need to step back and read. You just argued with me for arguing for you. Your posts in this thread are degenerating in content. I hopped in to stop you both.

Sorry about that. I’m tired of some people taking a single line or in this case a single word and trying to bend it to their definition when nothing else supports it.

It’s not reasonable, and it’s not helpful to the game. It accomplishes nothing. It’s not constructive criticism…it’s just bias.

Anyway, don’t you know what happens when you stand between two people arguing? lol

Hix.8925:

- At which point, due to “horizontal progression” there is nothing left to do other than go for specific gear items which you think look good, or enjoy playing for the sake of playing since there are no rewards left to entice you

The mind boggles at this absolutely unfathomable concept

Hix.8925:

- You don’t need to grind to get full exotic gear once you hit 80, you can do this in a day
- At which point, due to “horizontal progression” there is nothing left to do other than go for specific gear items which you think look good, or enjoy playing for the sake of playing since there are no rewards left to entice you
- Many people play this genre of game specifically because it is a loot oriented genre – the euphoria of getting gear is the entire point of the game for them. Why do you think Diablo 1 sold a billion copies? People like getting gear.
- Every single piece of cosmetic gear is a horrific grind that makes anything in say WoW look hilariously casual
- The common defense seems to be “but you don’t have to grind, there are tons of other things you can do, you don’t need that gear”
- But remember that cosmetic gear is the only reward that this game offers at level cap due to “horizontal progression.” Getting gear is the primary motivation for a large pool of players, especially PVE only players. And the only way to get cosmetic gear is to grind

So OP is right, Anet has completely failed in its design goal of “no grinding” or, like communism, their ‘horizontal progression’ idea is something that works in theory, but when real humans and their actual wants and desires are involved, it all falls apart.

Do I have to be handheld to find the fun? Well pretty much every Sandbox MMO failed other than Eve so apparently I’m not alone in this.

I can’t find it right now, but there was a line, maybe from the Manifesto?, where they said grinding for purely cosmetic items is OK..

sbr.8170:

I can’t find it right now, but there was a line, maybe from the Manifesto?, where they said grinding for purely cosmetic items is OK..

f someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game.

Makes sense to me

Hawkian.6580:

sbr.8170:

I can’t find it right now, but there was a line, maybe from the Manifesto?, where they said grinding for purely cosmetic items is OK..

f someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game.

Makes sense to me

Yea, I agree with the mentality. I never plan to get a legendary, but I’m glad they exist for those who want something to work towards. I think they should put out more Legendaries, though. Just 1 of each weapon kinda sucks, especially when some of those weapons I wouldn’t even buy if they were cheap exotics…

Hawkian.6580:

Hix.8925:

- At which point, due to “horizontal progression” there is nothing left to do other than go for specific gear items which you think look good, or enjoy playing for the sake of playing since there are no rewards left to entice you

The mind boggles at this absolutely unfathomable concept

The mind boggles that you stopped there and didn’t read the very next line which discusses why that concept isn’t enough, with regards to MMOs in particular.

Tolmos.8395:

Yea, I agree with the mentality. I never plan to get a legendary, but I’m glad they exist for those who want something to work towards. I think they should put out more Legendaries, though. Just 1 of each weapon kinda sucks, especially when some of those weapons I wouldn’t even buy if they were cheap exotics…

Definitely. I wager more Legendaries are coming.

Hix.8925:

The mind boggles that you stopped there and didn’t read the very next line which discusses why that concept isn’t enough, with regards to MMOs in particular.

You’re referring to the sentence beginning “many people”?

Hix.8925:

Do I have to be handheld to find the fun? Well pretty much every Sandbox MMO failed other than Eve so apparently I’m not alone in this.

I’d like to point out that Ultima online started in 1997, is still running today (15 years later, despite its horrendous graphics), and made the Guinness Book of World Records for being the largest MMO several years in a row.

Just saying

Hawkian.6580:

Mesket.5728:

At the end, we are all mice looking for that cheese in a maze, but it is up to the maze designers to make that fun, you can’t blame the mouse for choosing the fastest path.

It’s pretty important to note that not everyone feels this way, and that Guild Wars 2 caters explicitly, however you might feel, to those who do not.

If I feel like a rat in a maze, I stop playing. Games that evoke that sensation do not appeal to me. Your analogy casts us all as mice, and claims that the average mouse can’t blame the other mice for seeking the path of least resistance.

But I have no problem begrudging players for being mice at all. I don’t speedrun COF1. When I run COF1, I don’t care what classes are in my party or what gear those party members are wearing. I don’t enslave myself to repeating content I don’t want to do because I am in search of some “cheese” that I feel I require to make the experience worthwhile. There are plenty of others like me out there as well.

This is where comments about Guild Wars 2 being designed as “grindy” or catering to addicts (or whatever equivalent inanity strikes you as relevant to this discussion) fall apart for me. I wouldn’t enjoy the game if it actually were those things, because I’m not the right type of gamer.

Put another way: I don’t want ArenaNet to design better mazes for mice. I want them to work on a videogame for human beings. Specifically, ones that tend to fall toward the middle of the curve like myself.

Then you are probably more like me when it come to compare “play style” but that doesn’t mean my analogy is incorrect. We all have our “own cheese” to pursue in this game, it’s probably not the same for everyone. You only need to read the map chat or the forums to realize that most players are in fact looking for the fastest way to accrue gold and the problem starts when the fastest path to achieve this is through farming. This is what content designers should be looking at instead of more glow and FX on skins.

the game’s main issue so far is that the Time+effort vs reward is terribly bad

everything is unrewarding and most of the time punishing .

Mesket.5728:

Then you are probably more like me when it come to compare “play style” but that doesn’t mean my analogy is incorrect. We all have our “own cheese” to pursue in this game, it’s probably not the same for everyone. You only need to read the map chat or the forums to realize that most players are in fact looking for the fastest way to accrue gold and the problem starts when the fastest path to achieve this is through farming. This is what content designers should be looking at instead of more glow and FX on skins.

I think I’m getting your point but I also think you’re making a number of logical lapses.

1. If by “own cheese” you mean “something you get out of playing” then I misinterpreted your analogy. I interpreted it to mean “a tangible reward, without which players would not participate.” Typically, in MMOs this is embodied by gear with higher statistical values attached, and in your example, accruing gold for whatever purpose. If “enjoying yourself” counts as my “cheese” then I’m a mouse too; but the cheese and the maze are one and the same.

2. Neither map chat nor the forums (and especially not the forums) nor your individual guild or group of friends, nor any individual server, nor any other subset of the playerbase should ever be used as an indication of what “most players” are looking for.

3. The instances you’ve seen of people looking only for the fastest method of acquiring gold regardless of other factors are self-selecting. I.e. only the people who fall into that category are the ones talking about it. You don’t get an impression of how many people out there don’t care about it primarily or don’t care about it at all.

4. By the fastest path to achieve gold being through farming, one assumes you mean repeatedly running COF1 as quickly as possible? In terms of being something the content designers should look at- the viability of this style of acquisition is going to be severely reduced in 5 days… so it’s not as if it’s not on their minds, right?

Hawkian.6580:

Mesket.5728:

Then you are probably more like me when it come to compare “play style” but that doesn’t mean my analogy is incorrect. We all have our “own cheese” to pursue in this game, it’s probably not the same for everyone. You only need to read the map chat or the forums to realize that most players are in fact looking for the fastest way to accrue gold and the problem starts when the fastest path to achieve this is through farming. This is what content designers should be looking at instead of more glow and FX on skins.

I think I’m getting your point but I also think you’re making a number of logical lapses.

1. If by “own cheese” you mean “something you get out of playing” then I misinterpreted your analogy. I interpreted it to mean “a tangible reward, without which players would not participate.” Typically, in MMOs this is embodied by gear with higher statistical values attached, and in your example, accruing gold for whatever purpose. If “enjoying yourself” counts as my “cheese” then I’m a mouse too; but the cheese and the maze are one and the same.

2. Neither map chat nor the forums (and especially not the forums) nor your individual guild or group of friends, nor any individual server, nor any other subset of the playerbase should ever be used as an indication of what “most players” are looking for.

3. The instances you’ve seen of people looking only for the fastest method of acquiring gold regardless of other factors are self-selecting. I.e. only the people who fall into that category are the ones talking about it. You don’t get an impression of how many people out there don’t care about it primarily or don’t care about it at all.

4. By the fastest path to achieve gold being through farming, one assumes you mean repeatedly running COF1 as quickly as possible? In terms of being something the content designers should look at- the viability of this style of acquisition is going to be severely reduced in 5 days… so it’s not as if it’s not on their minds, right?

1- Yes, it goes for both scenarios. For some people item rewards is what they look for, in other cases just the joy of exploring the world and have fun.

2- I’m not taking map chat and forums lightly here. I’ve been around since beta and, after more than 15 years of MMOs; I tend to pay attention to player density on maps, participation and trendings to get a picture of where things are heading.

3- I have to disagree on some extend here. You say “You don’t get an impression of how many people out there don’t care about it primarily or don’t care about it at all” but I do see the lack of people that don’t care. I try to move around as many maps as I can while playing and each day is harder and harder to find players doing things. Even when you do activate an event and “follow” the NPC that requires an escort, you will se players passing through, hitting enough mobs to get participation and moving forward. What does this kind of behavior tells you? I’m seeing this more often than before. On the other hand, when you go to a popular dungeon entrance or a popular event you see LOTS of players just there for the grind. As I was exploring some map (can’t remember now) I’ve been yelled at by a really large number of players because I completed an event that people was expecting to fail just to keep farming… I mean… WTH!? seriously? is loosing now more rewarding than winning? please tell me this is not where we are going!

4- No, I’m not talking of CoF 1. I’m talking about every farming spot that is constantly “exploted” by several players in order to get profit. It used to be CoF 3 at the beginning, then AC, it seems now CoF 1 is the new trend. It will be another one next week so I don’t really care about CoF now. Same goes with events, remember that guy in Orr that everyone followed? The one that got nerfed a few months ago… or the events in Harathi with the 2 camps and the big champion fight at the end.

Ascended was put in to satisfy the demands of players like the OP, who want to turn games into jobs. The evidence is all over the post, in concerns about return on invested time, missed opportunities and getting paid (gold and what it buys). ANet tried to satisfy this mindset’s desire for better stuff. They implemented the new tier in a way that tried to slow down players who want to get these rewards as fast as possible. Now, there are complaints about grind and about low returns for time spent.

Take note, ANet. These players do not appreciate your efforts to please them. Gear progression players want their just desserts now, so they can turn around and complain about nothing to do all over again. It will never end. I know it’s too late for this tier, but take note for when they have all Ascended and find the new skills system unsatisfying. It’s going to come.

Esplen.3940:

Vayne, you need to step back and read.

Indeed.

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto is beyond your ability to understand. Even if it was incorrect (and I don’t believe that it is) the ONLY way (and it is the only way) you can claim it’s a lie if if you can prove it wasn’t the INTENT of the devs.

As pointed out about a dozen times, a manifesto is a statement of intent. So if it was intended, then it can’t be a lie. You have zero proof that what was said in the manifesto wasn’t intended, therefore you have zero proof of a lie. Simple, plain English.

And you still ignore other quotes, such as when Anet has said directly there would be things to grind for. How do you account for ignoring that?

You have just answered yourself.

Ignoring the very forced delusion that ArenaNet would be talking about level grind (which is something they don’t mention even once in the video), and considering how the statement about avoiding grinding for rewards (in the written Manifesto) just makes it clear that the statement about avoiding grinding for the fun stuff (in the Manifesto vide) includes “fun” things like rewards…

We see that ArenaNet changed their minds. They changed dungeons from a system in which a single run through a single path would give us an armor piece into a system in which a single run gives only some of the tokens required for an armor piece; so if you wanta full set of AC armor, be ready to kill the Spider Queen 23 times.

They changed dyes from an account bound system into a character based system, while asking the person responsible for the GW2 monetization to tell us about that.

They changed the recipe for Legendaries, adding the need for more or less 500 Globs of Ectoplasm, not to mention thousands of other crafting materials.

So yes, ArenaNet changed their minds. They chose to go back on the “We don’t want players to grind” philosophy and just add grind anyway. Using your words, they changed their intent.

And kept the Manifesto right there. Around release, the Manifesto was in the GW2 homepage. They have deleted many of the old blog entries, but they have kept the written Manifesto.

In other words, ArenaNet changed their original intent, while still making sure new players would see the Manifesto, which shows said original intent. Effectively, they lied.

Simple, plain English, Vayne. Can’t get much more obvious than that.

Esplen.3940:

If you have fun by getting pretty gear, note that you’re having fun by getting pretty gear. If you enjoy having pretty gear, then you should work for that pretty gear. This isn’t World of Spoonfeed where if you think leveling is too slow, you can call up Support and get to max level with decent gear. This is Guild Wars 2, where aesthetics are the horizontal grind. Meaning if you want to have that look, you gotta work for that look. But it doesn’t give you an advantage over other players, so you can still play the game without that look.

That’s very bad design.

I’ll quote Colin in the Manifesto to explain why:

ArenaNet

We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.

Grinding is not fun.

When you say people should “work” for rewards as a defense of the current system, you are defending grind – just mindlessly doing very easy content over and over again. Doesn’t matter if it’s farming the easiest dungeon in the game over and over, doing some easy Orr events with a large group of players over and over, or any other menial activity, it’s even worse than a decent job in real life.

Now, a lot of people think MMORPGs cannot exist without grind. They have been fooled by developers of pay-to-play MMORPGs, who want people to keep grinding as much as possible so they continue paying as long as possible.

But the issue is – again, grind is not fun. Grind does not require skill. Grind doesn’t even deserve a reward.

So when ArenaNet says, “We don’t want players to grind because no one enjoys it”, it’s rather obvious that they are not saying “we don’t want players to level grind but gear grind is ok, despite how no one enjoys grinding”. That’s hypocritical, to say the least.

It’s a pity that they gave up. And that, as a result, the GW2 community is made mostly by grinders who want more and more rewards, instead of more and more fun content.

Galen Grey.4709:

Very well put. yes thats exactly it. Kudos!

Thing is the problem is not that the reward is meaningless. I didnt see anyone complain about dailies because ascended gear isnt a good enough reward. The problem is actually the opposite, for people who hate the system ascended gear is exactly what they want but feel the price for it is too high even though its EXTREMELY discounted by the daily system.

Going with your analogy We’re being paid for a day of work by a token for simply showing up for 30 minutes – 1hr. But people dont want that, they want to drop the token get paid for time worked. They also dont want to work every day, they want to just work weekends. They look at the previous system and say hey I got payed a token for 30 minutes before so If I work 8hrs on a saturday I should get the equivalent of 16 tokens. The problem here is the token was symbolic for a day, if you switch back to the regular pay you’re payed for time and a work day is 8hrs not 1hr. That means with money you can do overtime sure and work 16hrs instead of 8 but that will cover 2 days not 16 days like people are hoping it would. … blah thing I botched the explanation up again.. hope people are getting what I am trying to say.

Yeh I see what you are getting at and that is part of the problem I see. Anet seem to have difficulty finding a way to balance the needs of the more hardcore and casual players. I also think that Anet has this sort of idealistic view embedded in their psyche or something. They still think they can make a shoe size that fits all. They want to make one game in one way that works for everybody.

Needless to say I think that’s as useful as Don Quixote who fought the windmills. And that’s where I think this problem stems from. They were probably taken aback quite a bit with all the negative reactions they got when they introduced the subject of ascended gear. That was also their own fault if you ask me, but that’s another subject. So, they came out with this ultimate gear if you will and so far only released accessories, but they wanted them to be equally accessible for hardcore and casual players. Most people would say “in your dreams Anet” I think but they still think they can or should do it.

Why? Well, perhaps a misguided sense of idealism or perhaps simply the limitations of a game that has only a boxed price and a very option gemstore. Perhaps they can’t do better simply because of financial restrictions. They can’t build a full fledged endgame.

This game has been out a year and has gained FotM and ascended items since then when it comes to endgame progression. The rest is grinding for a legendary, but that was already in the game from the start.

Sure, there have been events and these living story things, but it’s not the same. They’re snacks and some people get sick of the constant snacks and would like a proper meal again, but it may simply be that Anet doesn’t have the resources to do more.

Obviously the income of GW2 has decreased significantly since the first few months it was out (it’s in the financial reports). Now this is normal for MMOs and I am not saying the game is dying, but it does mean that there may be tight limits for new content. Maybe going to China will do a lot of good for the game. I am expecting it might do well there. Although having said that, I wonder if the Chinese, who are more accustomed to grind might not find this game way too easy. My apologies for the stereo type but I expect most of them to have a legendary within 2 months tops, but it would be good for the game if it did well and give them a cash influx that allows for less snacks and more meals if you will.

I don’t mind doing the same content over and over again as long as it’s fun or unpredictable. In GW2 doing the same content again means almost the exact same thing happens again…. which makes it mind numbingly boring.

cesmode.4257:

People are so naieve to think that this game provides you the only unique avenue in the MMO industry to give you the true freedom of choice. “you dont need to run dungeons if you dont like to..dont grind if you dont want to…” Yet, I am free not to do either of those things in any run-of-the-mill MMO either.

Not entirely, because other MMOs hold you to a subscription fee. Are you going to spend $15 a month to get the best of the best and do the latest greatest content, or stuff you should have done a long time ago? The “no-choice” found in other MMOs is a symptom of vertical progression (you actually need the best gear to do new content) combined with the subscription fee that holds you to the game – thus forcing you to commit to the vertical progression. ANet combats both by removing them entirely. Hence, we can do whatever we want in the game – and even out of it.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Horizontal progression doesn’t involve handouts.

What do you mean by handouts? like no uber rare drops from dungeon chests? cus that’s how GW1 was, and it was way more horizontal progression than any other mmo out there. GW2 doesn’t even come close. GW1 was all about knowing your profession and putting it into a team aspect forming super combos if you timed them well & together. This is called SKILL. Getting rewarded for skill instead of grinding = horizontal progression. Now… how horizontal is gw2… rofl.. it’s like grindish, but u don’t really get anything for it, special skins can all be bought with REAL money… it’s just sad.

I think he meant that horizontal progression doesn’t mean it has to be dead easy to get.

Shifty.5187:

Fair enough. I’m defining a casual player as someone who doesn’t play 24/7, but instead only plays a limited amount. I’m not defining it by what they want to do in the game.

Well there are a lot of tiers then. I’d say that person needs help and beyond hardcore, Die Hard & Desperate would be more accurate.

dargosian.2704:

cesmode.4257:

People are so naieve to think that this game provides you the only unique avenue in the MMO industry to give you the true freedom of choice. “you dont need to run dungeons if you dont like to..dont grind if you dont want to…” Yet, I am free not to do either of those things in any run-of-the-mill MMO either.

Not entirely, because other MMOs hold you to a subscription fee. Are you going to spend $15 a month to get the best of the best and do the latest greatest content, or stuff you should have done a long time ago? The “no-choice” found in other MMOs is a symptom of vertical progression (you actually need the best gear to do new content) combined with the subscription fee that holds you to the game – thus forcing you to commit to the vertical progression. ANet combats both by removing them entirely. Hence, we can do whatever we want in the game – and even out of it.

Your argument is about 5 years old. How many MMOs still have a sub only? Most MMOs I know that have subs also have f2p accounts, so your argument is completely ridiculous.

Gehenna.3625:

dargosian.2704:

cesmode.4257:

People are so naieve to think that this game provides you the only unique avenue in the MMO industry to give you the true freedom of choice. “you dont need to run dungeons if you dont like to..dont grind if you dont want to…” Yet, I am free not to do either of those things in any run-of-the-mill MMO either.

Not entirely, because other MMOs hold you to a subscription fee. Are you going to spend $15 a month to get the best of the best and do the latest greatest content, or stuff you should have done a long time ago? The “no-choice” found in other MMOs is a symptom of vertical progression (you actually need the best gear to do new content) combined with the subscription fee that holds you to the game – thus forcing you to commit to the vertical progression. ANet combats both by removing them entirely. Hence, we can do whatever we want in the game – and even out of it.

Your argument is about 5 years old. How many MMOs still have a sub only? Most MMOs I know that have subs also have f2p accounts, so your argument is completely ridiculous.

Yeah. Sub games are on their way out.

Kurakura.7281:

Gehenna.3625:

dargosian.2704:

cesmode.4257:

People are so naieve to think that this game provides you the only unique avenue in the MMO industry to give you the true freedom of choice. “you dont need to run dungeons if you dont like to..dont grind if you dont want to…” Yet, I am free not to do either of those things in any run-of-the-mill MMO either.

Not entirely, because other MMOs hold you to a subscription fee. Are you going to spend $15 a month to get the best of the best and do the latest greatest content, or stuff you should have done a long time ago? The “no-choice” found in other MMOs is a symptom of vertical progression (you actually need the best gear to do new content) combined with the subscription fee that holds you to the game – thus forcing you to commit to the vertical progression. ANet combats both by removing them entirely. Hence, we can do whatever we want in the game – and even out of it.

Your argument is about 5 years old. How many MMOs still have a sub only? Most MMOs I know that have subs also have f2p accounts, so your argument is completely ridiculous.

Yeah. Sub games are on their way out.

Thing is, the big names that are now freemium started with a sub design, and so copied the “formula” to a greater or lesser degree.

We haven’t seen a big, new MMO come out since GW2 launched. Wildstar and TESO look to be the next “big” names coming out, and their business model was listed as “Unknown” on Massively as of two days ago. It’ll be interesting to see what they — and other titles — do.

It’s sad really because the sub system really is better for the quality of a MMO in general. People just saw these crappy f2p games that they thought were awesome for 3 days and then decided they didn’t want to pay subs anymore.

I am pretty sure people spend more on cash shops than subs and the quality of the games has become less of games without any subs for sure.

Let’s be honest, GW2 looks pretty, but the story telling and voice acting is not very good. New content for endgame so far has been FotM, the tetris dungeon and the rest is just silly events and living story crap, but nothing substantial, one year into the game. I see the limitations this game has everywhere compared to games that were set up with a sub model. That just makes GW2 a game I visit from time to time to casually run around the world for a few hours till it bores the crap out of me again.

Kinda like a booty call

Erasculio.2914:

-snip-

So then what should players work for? What should differentiate the player who plays for 8 hours a day versus the player who plays for 10 minutes a day (and yes, the average time played for players who get on GW2 is ~12 minutes a day everyday).

Gehenna.3625:

It’s sad really because the sub system really is better for the quality of a MMO in general. People just saw these crappy f2p games that they thought were awesome for 3 days and then decided they didn’t want to pay subs anymore.

I am pretty sure people spend more on cash shops than subs and the quality of the games has become less of games without any subs for sure.

Mmm, I can only speak for myself and my close family.

I play non-sub games because I don’t want to get stuck trying to cancel the billing (and it failing) or paying for a game I don’t play anymore because I put so much work into it. I did that with EverQuest for a year before I finally realized I wasn’t going back and had paid a nice chunk I could have spent on a PS2 game to keep me occupied for that year.

I play free games because there’s no guilt then in saying “okay, see you” when I stop liking it. I pay for the cash shop, sometimes, because I want something useful out of it. (See: “Molten Alliance Pick” and “Consortium Harvesting Sickle”, for instance – as opposed to Black Lion Keys . . . Boosters . . . backpack covers. I mean, I have Mad Memories, why the heck would I want anything else on my back? It’s a light source!)

My brother plays free games because he doesn’t always have money to keep a subscription active, and because he loves loves loves League of Legends. He pays roughly the same amount of money he spent on his Magic: The Gathering habit in the past (with me, yes, and I’m only somewhat regretful of doing it).

My father won’t play subscription games anymore because he rarely has time to play them and they just don’t interest him. It interests him less when a high degree of reaction ability is called for, which is why he plays Civ games.

My mother plays no games at all, aside from the Net Walk. You know, where you start at some news article and wind up four hours later researching low-intensity magnetic fields and their effect on the human body . . .

Oh, and I get more play out of single player games anymore or things like Minecraft and Settlers of Catan than MMOs

IndigoSundown.5419:

Thing is, the big names that are now freemium started with a sub design, and so copied the “formula” to a greater or lesser degree.

We haven’t seen a big, new MMO come out since GW2 launched. Wildstar and TESO look to be the next “big” names coming out, and their business model was listed as “Unknown” on Massively as of two days ago. It’ll be interesting to see what they — and other titles — do.

Doesn’t matter from my point of view. Some may still try to start with a sub, but in the end they will all fall and add f2p in there. Unless you have a company like Blizzard who is willing to invest and take a hit when needed, other companies will fall on their faces each time. Why?

Because they all make the same mistakes. They all believe their own hype and overhype the game. They will get lots of players interested, and 1-3 months later at least half will have left. Game developers just need to do a lot better to hold people to their games. Perhaps they should stop being disappointed or shocked when half the players leave within the first 3 months. They should expect that this is the reality of MMOs a make that part of their calculations.

Perhaps then they will get smarter about content or even realise that overhyping just to create extra box sales also comes with big downsides a couple of months later. And maybe they might hire better people to build things like sensible rewards systems and a leveling process that doesn’t become pointless half way….just saying.

Esplen.3940:

Erasculio.2914:

-snip-

So then what should players work for? What should differentiate the player who plays for 8 hours a day versus the player who plays for 10 minutes a day (and yes, the average time played for players who get on GW2 is ~12 minutes a day everyday).

I think the metrics that are more important are…

How many days a week do people want to play, which can be tracked by looking for days where people play for more than 45min (since they probably don’t want to play that day and are just getting on to do the daily)

How many hours do people play on days that they want to play?

A metric saying that people just play for an average of 12 minutes per day tells you that you need better metrics to understand your players.

Shockwave.1230:

Esplen.3940:

Erasculio.2914:

-snip-

So then what should players work for? What should differentiate the player who plays for 8 hours a day versus the player who plays for 10 minutes a day (and yes, the average time played for players who get on GW2 is ~12 minutes a day everyday).

I think the metrics that are more important are…

How many days a week do people want to play, which can be tracked by looking for days where people play for more than 45min (since they probably don’t want to play that day and are just getting on to do the daily)

How many hours do people play on days that they want to play?

A metric saying that people just play for an average of 12 minutes per day tells you that you need better metrics to understand your players.

The 12 minutes/day was a calculation done by a player using numbers given by Arenanet (Hours played by users every week. Users logging in every week.)

Shockwave.1230:

Esplen.3940:

Erasculio.2914:

-snip-

So then what should players work for? What should differentiate the player who plays for 8 hours a day versus the player who plays for 10 minutes a day (and yes, the average time played for players who get on GW2 is ~12 minutes a day everyday).

I think the metrics that are more important are…

How many days a week do people want to play, which can be tracked by looking for days where people play for more than 45min (since they probably don’t want to play that day and are just getting on to do the daily)

How many hours do people play on days that they want to play?

A metric saying that people just play for an average of 12 minutes per day tells you that you need better metrics to understand your players.

Metrics, like other numbers, are pretty much meaningless without context.

For example, people are bored in game so log less or not as long. So then an event comes like that box thing and people start massively doing it. What does this mean?

Is it the rewards that bring people there?
Is it the fact that there’s finally something different to do, no matter how ridiculous?
Is it the fear of missing out on something?

The thing is, the fac that people do something doesn’t automatically mean you understand why. Players might not even really like it but just do it cause it’s there and something else to do. So whenever game devs talk about metrics, I always wonder if they really get that increased activity is not the same as actually liking doing this activity.

Erasculio.2914:

Esplen.3940:

Vayne, you need to step back and read.

Indeed.

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto is beyond your ability to understand. Even if it was incorrect (and I don’t believe that it is) the ONLY way (and it is the only way) you can claim it’s a lie if if you can prove it wasn’t the INTENT of the devs.

As pointed out about a dozen times, a manifesto is a statement of intent. So if it was intended, then it can’t be a lie. You have zero proof that what was said in the manifesto wasn’t intended, therefore you have zero proof of a lie. Simple, plain English.

And you still ignore other quotes, such as when Anet has said directly there would be things to grind for. How do you account for ignoring that?

You have just answered yourself.

Ignoring the very forced delusion that ArenaNet would be talking about level grind (which is something they don’t mention even once in the video), and considering how the statement about avoiding grinding for rewards (in the written Manifesto) just makes it clear that the statement about avoiding grinding for the fun stuff (in the Manifesto vide) includes “fun” things like rewards…

We see that ArenaNet changed their minds. They changed dungeons from a system in which a single run through a single path would give us an armor piece into a system in which a single run gives only some of the tokens required for an armor piece; so if you wanta full set of AC armor, be ready to kill the Spider Queen 23 times.

They changed dyes from an account bound system into a character based system, while asking the person responsible for the GW2 monetization to tell us about that.

They changed the recipe for Legendaries, adding the need for more or less 500 Globs of Ectoplasm, not to mention thousands of other crafting materials.

So yes, ArenaNet changed their minds. They chose to go back on the “We don’t want players to grind” philosophy and just add grind anyway. Using your words, they changed their intent.

And kept the Manifesto right there. Around release, the Manifesto was in the GW2 homepage. They have deleted many of the old blog entries, but they have kept the written Manifesto.

In other words, ArenaNet changed their original intent, while still making sure new players would see the Manifesto, which shows said original intent. Effectively, they lied.

Simple, plain English, Vayne. Can’t get much more obvious than that.

It’s not quite level grind. Colin as talked about, on more than one ocassion, how in most games you have to hit max level before you get to the fun stuff. In other words, you grind as fast as you can to get to max level to raid. You don’t do fun stuff till the top level. That’s what he’s talking about. That’s what I’ve said repeatedly. Your refusal to acknowledge not only that I’ve said this, but that Colin has, just shows how far you’re try to go to prove your point.

Like taking a line out of the original manifesto or a SINGLE WORD out of that article. This is an argument you’ve already lost. I don’t know why you can’t see it.

Take the dye system. You take that out of context too. Look at you pointing out that they changed the dye from account unlocked to single character unlocked. You know, that’s absolutely 100% true. But what you ignore, against taking it out of context, is the accompanying changes that made that dye collection far more of a grind in the first place. A dye seed, which you could only grow once per day, taken to an NPC in your home instance. And if you want to see more than one dye per day, you have to spend money on the cash shop on plant food. And the dyes were account locked but also couldn’t be sold on the trading post. Anet didn’t JUST change the dye to make it character bound, they changed the entire dye system and the new system is less greedy than the old one and makes it easier to get dyes.

I think maybe you should stop taking stuff out of context to try to prove points that are clearly not true.

Gehenna.3625:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Thing is, the big names that are now freemium started with a sub design, and so copied the “formula” to a greater or lesser degree.

We haven’t seen a big, new MMO come out since GW2 launched. Wildstar and TESO look to be the next “big” names coming out, and their business model was listed as “Unknown” on Massively as of two days ago. It’ll be interesting to see what they — and other titles — do.

Doesn’t matter from my point of view. Some may still try to start with a sub, but in the end they will all fall and add f2p in there. Unless you have a company like Blizzard who is willing to invest and take a hit when needed, other companies will fall on their faces each time. -snip-

If you think Blizzard is going to carry the subscription spear, this is a warning that you might need to prepare yourself otherwise.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/01/blizzards-titan-unlikely-to-be-a-subscription-based-mmorpg/

I dislike sub-based MMO’s intensely. I view every anti-fun attempt to slow me down, from ten minute flight paths, through mobs applying 20 second cripples 2 seconds before the fight ends, needing to stop and “eat/drink” and time gated progression “content” as ways for the company to keep its hand in my wallet.

I can tolerate a little bit of this crap, so dailies in GW2 didn’t bother me that much, but the upcoming crafting daily is probably going to send me over the edge with ANet.