Guild Wars 2

I tend to think it isn’t necessarily about the gear, but rather accessible fun content that can be easily run by a random group. In addition, lots of fun content in PvE zones mixed in with a sizeable number of build variations among all professions to enjoy the game the way that I want to.

To me gear is boring and just increased stats over time. I’d rather see new zones for various levels added, new permanent dungeons, ArenaNets version of Raids, and more hidden things in the world to find with hidden story quests/events

You really don’t need the gear progression based system. I just think it needs to aim to be more sandbox to let people play the way they want. This in turn will appeal to them and their friends for a rather long period of time.

Erasculio.2914:

killcannon.2576:

People won’t leave, it will make people stay and play the game. Example? The current game.

You are factually wrong.

Where is my evidence? Every single WoW clone out there. All of them had gear grind and yet all of them had massive hemorrhages a few months after release, exactly like GW2.

Making a WoW clone is catering to a niche market. There aren’t that many people willing to be deceived by MMO developers, who believe players don’t know any better than donkeys being led by carrots in front of their faces.

ArenaNet’s main failure with GW2 is not failing to cater to MMORPG players; those just jump from MMO to MMO after complaining how each game is not enough like WoW. No, their failure was not catering enough to everyone else – to those who do not like MMOs.

I could go back to check all the posts from around November when everyone was screaming doom and gloom and they were all quitting and it was the end of GW2 and no one was ever going to play again. And I would probably find a good many people who said they were quitting…still playing. WoW clone GW2 ain’t, and I don’t think it could ever be one.

Whether any of the GW1 player base wants to admit or not, GW2 is an MMO and it requires MMO play mechanics. GW2 doesn’t have to follow the pack and make progression about gear, but they do need some form of lasting progression mechanic to ensure long term playability. Gear grind implemented in order to gate content would probably not be the best idea for this game, but there are other forms of progression available.

Gw1 was a great game, if niche, but it was mostly a single player experience. GW2 broke the mold on GW1, and many other MMO’s. GW2 needs to find it’s own mechanics and way forward, not borrow from the past- whether that be from GW1 or older MMO’s. And the mechanic has to be available to everyone equally, whether new or old players.

Personal experience has shown me that the people who scream about how “X is unacceptable! I am quitting!” rarely, if ever, quit. The people who are truly upset enough about something to quit will usually do so quietly, without fuss. You will never know they were gone unless you notice that they’ve stopped posting/showing up in the game. Only ANet knows for certain whether or not the introduction of Ascended items caused that kind of backlash, since they have access to player numbers.

Personally speaking, I still hate the way Ascended items was introduced, and I dislike the way it feels divorced from the standard equipment tiers. If Ascended items had been in the game from the start, as a T7 set, I imagine nobody would have any problems with it.

Someone on the first page mentioned it already, but I believe the main reason why Ascended items have been largely accepted is because they truly are not required to do the vast majority of the game’s content. They are mandatory only for Fractals, and even then, only if you’re venturing into high-level Fractals. For everything else, you can do well with Exotics, Rares, or even Masterwork items. People realised that Ascended items are TRULY optional, and the fact that you can pick up Ascended trinkets with Laurels or Guild Commendations hasn’t hurt either.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Lol, I love all the people saying “Introduce gear progression and people will leave” or “GW2 was built with no gear progression as a selling point”. That argument was dead 7 months ago with the introduction of Ascended.

People won’t leave, it will make people stay and play the game. Example? The current game.

GW2 has never said it would not contain gear progression. Never.

It doesn’t matter what the casuals, hardcores, elites, or baddies think. There will be progression simply because it keeps people playing more hours of the day.

And in the end, that’s what MMO publishers want.

Eric Flannum has said straight out in interviews that the game wouldn’t contain vertical progression. There are two examples of it that people commonly post. He was wrong, obviously but he did say it.

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

“It’s more of a badge system, so this is something that we did in Guild Wars 1 as well. Our basic philosophy is that you should never complete a piece of content and get something you don’t want. So it’s going to be the case where you go through and are guaranteed to get a piece of gear that you didn’t have before, and that you’re going to want.” So, you’re guaranteed to get a piece of gear every time you do a dungeon? “Yes.”"Sweet."——Eric Flanum from an interview with PC Gamer about dungeons.

Eric Flannum:
Our goal with our crafting philosophically is that you’ll never make an item that is a throwaway item. You’ll always be making something that is going to be valuable to someone. Whether it’s for yourself, whether it’s to put on the auction house, whether it’s a consumable that people want, there’s never a time when you’re just making something to increase your skill and then you’re just going to vendor it or chuck it or whatever else you’d do with it afterwards.

I seriously would never, ever, quote that guy for truth.

Game was released with vertical progression. Fine<Masterwork<Rare<Exotic; levels; tiered trait system; content blocked by level.

And last, but certainly not least, I found this while I was googling Mr.Flannum

Vayne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hunter View Post
“They also said the wouldn’t add vertical progression. What are we supposed to believe at this point?”

Actually they never said those words. They said other words. They said that Legendary weapons would equal exotic weapons in stats. I’d love to see there they actually said there words there would be no vertical progression. A lot of things that are said during game production changes anyway. As the energy example I always give. Anet has always said it was a company that iterates, which pretty much means things change. Or maybe you missed the word iteration in every single post they’ve ever made on their blog and just about every interview they’ve given.

They try stuff all the time and if it’s not working, they change the stuff. That’s pretty much what iteration means. So if they see this isn’t working, they’ll change it. If they see it is working they probably won’t. What they had before wasn’t working for various reasons. They changed it. I’m pretty sure there’s something in the TOS that says they can do that, but I haven’t gone back and read it.

They’ve changed something you really care about and you’re angry. I get that. But they never said, there will never be any vertical progression in Guild Wars 2. I’m pretty sure there always planned it for paid upgrades for example.*

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Lol, I love all the people saying “Introduce gear progression and people will leave” or “GW2 was built with no gear progression as a selling point”. That argument was dead 7 months ago with the introduction of Ascended.

People won’t leave, it will make people stay and play the game. Example? The current game.

GW2 has never said it would not contain gear progression. Never.

It doesn’t matter what the casuals, hardcores, elites, or baddies think. There will be progression simply because it keeps people playing more hours of the day.

And in the end, that’s what MMO publishers want.

Eric Flannum has said straight out in interviews that the game wouldn’t contain vertical progression. There are two examples of it that people commonly post. He was wrong, obviously but he did say it.

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

“It’s more of a badge system, so this is something that we did in Guild Wars 1 as well. Our basic philosophy is that you should never complete a piece of content and get something you don’t want. So it’s going to be the case where you go through and are guaranteed to get a piece of gear that you didn’t have before, and that you’re going to want.” So, you’re guaranteed to get a piece of gear every time you do a dungeon? “Yes.”"Sweet."——Eric Flanum from an interview with PC Gamer about dungeons.

Eric Flannum:
Our goal with our crafting philosophically is that you’ll never make an item that is a throwaway item. You’ll always be making something that is going to be valuable to someone. Whether it’s for yourself, whether it’s to put on the auction house, whether it’s a consumable that people want, there’s never a time when you’re just making something to increase your skill and then you’re just going to vendor it or chuck it or whatever else you’d do with it afterwards.

I seriously would never, ever, quote that guy for truth.

Game was released with vertical progression. Fine<Masterwork<Rare<Exotic; levels; tiered trait system; content blocked by level.

And last, but certainly not least, I found this while I was googling Mr.Flannum

Vayne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hunter View Post
“They also said the wouldn’t add vertical progression. What are we supposed to believe at this point?”

Actually they never said those words. They said other words. They said that Legendary weapons would equal exotic weapons in stats. I’d love to see there they actually said there words there would be no vertical progression. A lot of things that are said during game production changes anyway. As the energy example I always give. Anet has always said it was a company that iterates, which pretty much means things change. Or maybe you missed the word iteration in every single post they’ve ever made on their blog and just about every interview they’ve given.

They try stuff all the time and if it’s not working, they change the stuff. That’s pretty much what iteration means. So if they see this isn’t working, they’ll change it. If they see it is working they probably won’t. What they had before wasn’t working for various reasons. They changed it. I’m pretty sure there’s something in the TOS that says they can do that, but I haven’t gone back and read it.

They’ve changed something you really care about and you’re angry. I get that. But they never said, there will never be any vertical progression in Guild Wars 2. I’m pretty sure there always planned it for paid upgrades for example.*

You know for a fact I know they’re an iterative company, because I’ve pointed that out many times. And no, I’m not particularly upset with vertical progression.

But in previous arguments on these forums, other people have pulled quotes out about vertical progression, when I was arguing that the manifesto didn’t mention vertical progression at all. I never bothered to verify the quotes, I just assumed that people actually used good quotes. Remember, I’m the guy who was defending Anet for their decision to add ascended gear.

You’re so good at finding quotes, surely you’d be aware of this.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Lol, I love all the people saying “Introduce gear progression and people will leave” or “GW2 was built with no gear progression as a selling point”. That argument was dead 7 months ago with the introduction of Ascended.

People won’t leave, it will make people stay and play the game. Example? The current game.

GW2 has never said it would not contain gear progression. Never.

It doesn’t matter what the casuals, hardcores, elites, or baddies think. There will be progression simply because it keeps people playing more hours of the day.

And in the end, that’s what MMO publishers want.

Eric Flannum has said straight out in interviews that the game wouldn’t contain vertical progression. There are two examples of it that people commonly post. He was wrong, obviously but he did say it.

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

“It’s more of a badge system, so this is something that we did in Guild Wars 1 as well. Our basic philosophy is that you should never complete a piece of content and get something you don’t want. So it’s going to be the case where you go through and are guaranteed to get a piece of gear that you didn’t have before, and that you’re going to want.” So, you’re guaranteed to get a piece of gear every time you do a dungeon? “Yes.”"Sweet."——Eric Flanum from an interview with PC Gamer about dungeons.

Eric Flannum:
Our goal with our crafting philosophically is that you’ll never make an item that is a throwaway item. You’ll always be making something that is going to be valuable to someone. Whether it’s for yourself, whether it’s to put on the auction house, whether it’s a consumable that people want, there’s never a time when you’re just making something to increase your skill and then you’re just going to vendor it or chuck it or whatever else you’d do with it afterwards.

I seriously would never, ever, quote that guy for truth.

Game was released with vertical progression. Fine<Masterwork<Rare<Exotic; levels; tiered trait system; content blocked by level.

And last, but certainly not least, I found this while I was googling Mr.Flannum

Vayne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hunter View Post
“They also said the wouldn’t add vertical progression. What are we supposed to believe at this point?”

Actually they never said those words. They said other words. They said that Legendary weapons would equal exotic weapons in stats. I’d love to see there they actually said there words there would be no vertical progression. A lot of things that are said during game production changes anyway. As the energy example I always give. Anet has always said it was a company that iterates, which pretty much means things change. Or maybe you missed the word iteration in every single post they’ve ever made on their blog and just about every interview they’ve given.

They try stuff all the time and if it’s not working, they change the stuff. That’s pretty much what iteration means. So if they see this isn’t working, they’ll change it. If they see it is working they probably won’t. What they had before wasn’t working for various reasons. They changed it. I’m pretty sure there’s something in the TOS that says they can do that, but I haven’t gone back and read it.

They’ve changed something you really care about and you’re angry. I get that. But they never said, there will never be any vertical progression in Guild Wars 2. I’m pretty sure there always planned it for paid upgrades for example.*

You know for a fact I know they’re an iterative company, because I’ve pointed that out many times. And no, I’m not particularly upset with vertical progression.

But in previous arguments on these forums, other people have pulled quotes out about vertical progression, when I was arguing that the manifesto didn’t mention vertical progression at all. I never bothered to verify the quotes, I just assumed that people actually used good quotes. Remember, I’m the guy who was defending Anet for their decision to add ascended gear.

You’re so good at finding quotes, surely you’d be aware of this.

I can’t find a quote by Mr. Flannum stating there would be zero vertical progression in the game. If there is one, someone is lying somewhere. Either Ascended was planned before release, making any quote stating there would be no vert progression a lie, or Ascended wasn’t planned before release, making that statement a lie.

Regardless, there has always been vert progression in game. It’s just not a treadmill.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Lol, I love all the people saying “Introduce gear progression and people will leave” or “GW2 was built with no gear progression as a selling point”. That argument was dead 7 months ago with the introduction of Ascended.

snip

It doesn’t matter what the casuals, hardcores, elites, or baddies think. There will be progression simply because it keeps people playing more hours of the day.

And in the end, that’s what MMO publishers want.

Eric Flannum has said straight out in interviews that the game wouldn’t contain vertical progression. There are two examples of it that people commonly post. He was wrong, obviously but he did say it.

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

“It’s more of a badge system, so this is something that we did in Guild Wars 1 as well. Our basic philosophy is that you should never complete a piece of content and get something you don’t want. So it’s going to be the case where you go through and are guaranteed to get a piece of gear that you didn’t have before, and that you’re going to want.” So, you’re guaranteed to get a piece of gear every time you do a dungeon? “Yes.”"Sweet."——Eric Flanum from an interview with PC Gamer about dungeons.

Eric Flannum:
Our goal with our crafting philosophically is that you’ll never make an item that is a throwaway item. You’ll always be making something that is going to be valuable to someone. Whether it’s for yourself, whether it’s to put on the auction house, whether it’s a consumable that people want, there’s never a time when you’re just making something to increase your skill and then you’re just going to vendor it or chuck it or whatever else you’d do with it afterwards.

I seriously would never, ever, quote that guy for truth.

Game was released with vertical progression. Fine<Masterwork<Rare<Exotic; levels; tiered trait system; content blocked by level.

And last, but certainly not least, I found this while I was googling Mr.Flannum

Vayne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hunter View Post
“They also said the wouldn’t add vertical progression. What are we supposed to believe at this point?”

Actually they never said those words. They said other words. They said that Legendary weapons would equal exotic weapons in stats. I’d love to see there they actually said there words there would be no vertical progression. A lot of things that are said during game production changes anyway. As the energy example I always give. Anet has always said it was a company that iterates, which pretty much means things change. Or maybe you missed the word iteration in every single post they’ve ever made on their blog and just about every interview they’ve given.

They try stuff all the time and if it’s not working, they change the stuff. That’s pretty much what iteration means. So if they see this isn’t working, they’ll change it. If they see it is working they probably won’t. What they had before wasn’t working for various reasons. They changed it. I’m pretty sure there’s something in the TOS that says they can do that, but I haven’t gone back and read it.

They’ve changed something you really care about and you’re angry. I get that. But they never said, there will never be any vertical progression in Guild Wars 2. I’m pretty sure there always planned it for paid upgrades for example.*

You know for a fact I know they’re an iterative company, because I’ve pointed that out many times. And no, I’m not particularly upset with vertical progression.

But in previous arguments on these forums, other people have pulled quotes out about vertical progression, when I was arguing that the manifesto didn’t mention vertical progression at all. I never bothered to verify the quotes, I just assumed that people actually used good quotes. Remember, I’m the guy who was defending Anet for their decision to add ascended gear.

You’re so good at finding quotes, surely you’d be aware of this.

I can’t find a quote by Mr. Flannum stating there would be zero vertical progression in the game. If there is one, someone is lying somewhere. Either Ascended was planned before release, making any quote stating there would be no vert progression a lie, or Ascended wasn’t planned before release, making that statement a lie.

Regardless, there has always been vert progression in game. It’s just not a treadmill.

How many times have I said those very words about it not being a treadmill. Honestly, you’d think I lost my fan boy tatoo or something. lol

Anywho, I’m not arguing for vertical progression. Just progression. Whatever form that may take.

killcannon.2576:

Anywho, I’m not arguing for vertical progression. Just progression. Whatever form that may take.

Yep, I think there needs to be some form of progression in the game, which is why I brought up alternate advancement. Many games use some form of it, without resorting to making the game about gear.

Basically I don’t want to be a coatrack for greatness.

I’m not arguing with you. Just saying I don’t trust quotes from that guy. I think the form of gear progression we have is fine, I think they could (should?) add some more ascended gear to go for. Would certainly reinvigorate the game.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Anywho, I’m not arguing for vertical progression. Just progression. Whatever form that may take.

Yep, I think there needs to be some form of progression in the game, which is why I brought up alternate advancement. Many games use some form of it, without resorting to making the game about gear.

Basically I don’t want to be a coatrack for greatness.

I would like to see more (permanent) story progression personally, maybe with some decent cosmetics at the end or during it. Maybe a chain of separate, story heavy dungeons that have to be completed in order, with a fun, mildly challenging, jump puzzle to get to them (not on equal terms of the holiday ones), or a series of mini dungeons that have to be found. Hell, you could even attach Ascended gear pieces to the dungeons for rewards at completion.

I just do not want progression in this game to mean temporary content that only some get to experience.