Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
Greater penalties for Death
I’ve seen so many players run into large bosses with massive melee skills and repeatedly drop because they fail to watch the boss and avoid its biggest attacks. Take Halmi for instance. The first guy in the queens gauntlet. So many players fight him and stand in front when he charges up his big attack, die, and go “wtf just hit me?” Its sad that some players just can’t be bothered to learn the games core mechanics and then go claiming the game is to hard.
In some instances it’s not that they can’t be bothered to learn the mechanics, its simply they can’t see them. Your Halmi example is part of the reason I couldn’t do gauntlet last year. I simply could not see him wind up with that attack and as such died more often than not because I didn’t dodge in time. I’ve upgraded my system since, but there isn’t a kitten thing I can do about my internet connection sadly. I guess if I win the lottery, maybe, but until then I’m s.o.l.
Did fractals with my husband, a guildie and 2 pugs last weekend, got Maw as the boss. My husband kept getting downed because the stupid symbol just did not show up for him (we have similarly specced machines, well above min reqs). They popped fine for me, but looking over at his screen when I see it pop on him, nope…nothing. Lag maybe? Doubtful, everything else running smoothly, but always possible I guess. Our guildie was having the same issue. Everything seemed to be playing fine for her, but she couldn’t see the image pop ups. (She was so irritated) They ended up just having to hold and throw crystals.
The maw has always been a buggy encounter. The best bet for someone who can’t see the symbols is to just have them flip crystals in a corner somewhere.
The point I made with Halmi is that even on low speced minimum requirement computers you can read “Lethal Frontal Smash”. (Yes not every mob has as distinctively telling notes It would be nice if Anet fixed that.) When he stops attacking as often as he normally does dodge around him or use an evasion skill. This is what I was talking about. People blow all their cds on a boss and not take into account some can be used defensively. People don’t care about dieing because there is no downside, so they will happily (with a bit of frustration) bash their heads into the wall till they manage to kill the thing through shear dumb luck rather than skills and mechanics. Its not hard to learn when to dodge and how best to do it. Combat doesn’t have to be a frantic “Mash all teh buttonz” it just takes a bit of time, an average reading skill and perhaps a small bit of testing to get things to work in your favor.
I’ve face tanked Halmi with my mesmer by using his slow periods as tells to blind, evade, and interrupt him. Not many people know how to build for situations like that because they refuse to learn anything intricate about their characters mechanics and skills. They just copypasta from a site and wonder what went wrong. Its sad really.
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer
The point I made with Halmi is that even on low speced minimum requirement computers you can read “Lethal Frontal Smash”. (Yes not every mob has as distinctively telling notes It would be nice if Anet fixed that.) When he stops attacking as often as he normally does dodge around him or use an evasion skill. This is what I was talking about. People blow all their cds on a boss and not take into account some can be used defensively. People don’t care about dieing because there is no downside, so they will happily (with a bit of frustration) bash their heads into the wall till they manage to kill the thing through shear dumb luck rather than skills and mechanics. Its not hard to learn when to dodge and how best to do it. Combat doesn’t have to be a frantic “Mash all teh buttonz” it just takes a bit of time, an average reading skill and perhaps a small bit of testing to get things to work in your favor.
I’ve face tanked Halmi with my mesmer by using his slow periods as tells to blind, evade, and interrupt him. Not many people know how to build for situations like that because they refuse to learn anything intricate about their characters mechanics and skills. They just copypasta from a site and wonder what went wrong. Its sad really.
Yeah you can read it (which I did), you just can’t necessarily see it, which was my point. He attacks slowly to begin with, and if you lag, sometimes its hard to tell a from b. But I suppose that’s neither here nor there as lag isn’t something one can control.
Yes, you’re always going to have some of “those” type of people. They aren’t any different in real life than in game, sadly enough. There really isn’t anything you can do about them. I mean, even if you held their hard and pressed the buttons for them, it wouldn’t actually help. Even if dying had a greater penalty, they simply wouldn’t care. They’d either go with it, or go play something else. Some people don’t desire to “get better” because it’s not why they play. To each their own I suppose, in that regard, but kitten it don’t punish the rest of us because you don’t like those people.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
These are not death penalties. They are game mechanics. The Downed state is something they put in to try and hold back death and give players a second chance before ultimately having to run back (or wait for a res). Dieing in a group is not a death penalty. It doesn’t effect the player dead it effects the rest alive. Death penalty is a penalty to the one that died. Its normally brought on by the “death has no meaning” mentality or just a lacking the correct knowledge of the fight or other mechanics available to the player (such as evades in their skills and the ability to dodge).
I’ve seen so many players run into large bosses with massive melee skills and repeatedly drop because they fail to watch the boss and avoid its biggest attacks. Take Halmi for instance. The first guy in the queens gauntlet. So many players fight him and stand in front when he charges up his big attack, die, and go “wtf just hit me?” Its sad that some players just can’t be bothered to learn the games core mechanics and then go claiming the game is to hard.
In its current state death is more a penalty to those around the dead and not the dead itself. This has lead to so many instances of trollish behavior its impossible to count.
Exactly right, Diaz. +1
Yeah you can read it (which I did), you just can’t necessarily see it, which was my point. He attacks slowly to begin with, and if you lag, sometimes its hard to tell a from b. But I suppose that’s neither here nor there as lag isn’t something one can control.
Yes, you’re always going to have some of “those” type of people. They aren’t any different in real life than in game, sadly enough. There really isn’t anything you can do about them. I mean, even if you held their hard and pressed the buttons for them, it wouldn’t actually help. Even if dying had a greater penalty, they simply wouldn’t care. They’d either go with it, or go play something else. Some people don’t desire to “get better” because it’s not why they play. To each their own I suppose, in that regard, but kitten it don’t punish the rest of us because you don’t like those people.
Theres not much we can do about the “Can you see the enemy” in certain instances (low preformance comps, massive zergs, etc) but there was another thread that talked about alot of that already over here . But even still some boss mechanics are so simple and easy to identify that people just don’t pay attention to. Alpha in CoE is a big target of this. I know his mechanics inside and out and yet no one even bothers to attempt to fight him how he was intended. Everyone just piles into a corner and melees him down, completely ignoring his mechanics. Is the melee method wrong? no not at all. It works if people know how to dodge and time it. But not everyone knows that. Giganticus Lupicus is another one.
I’ve watched so many players continuously ram their shoulder into a steel bolted door and ask why it wont budge. When I actually say something to help them they go “Oh well now don’t I feel like an idiot.” and actually do things in a more effective manner. The fact is new players are afraid to ask more veteran players anything because some more elitist players will give them the boot as soon as they open their mouth. Its sad really. The gap is only brought about because the game is easy once you know how to play it effectively. And some people have tried to put “hardcore” into a game that was never meant to be hardcore.
I was only giving ideas to a DP because that’s what someone was looking for. Would a DP help people like the ones I’ve mentioned? probably not. But something as simple as an MF nerf when you die would at least entice people to try and play a bit more intelligently and not like neanderthals with clubs and the basic instinct to bash and smash.
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer
To each their own I suppose, in that regard, but kitten it don’t punish the rest of us because you don’t like those people.
Lanfear, how would it punish you? It would only effect those that die, and even then it would be minor and temporary. (well at least for the suggestions a few of us have made)
I put a bit more thought into my last little note. A wild thought experiment appeared!
Question: If a temporary penalty to your magic find was put in place for dieing;
1. Would you be more inclined to try and stay alive?
2. Would you actively try and learn an enemy’s mechanics to avoid their bigger attacks?
3. Would you look more closely at your traits, weapons skills, and utility skills to try and find a more effective solution?
4. Would you be more inclined to help others , such as in the case of a pug dungeon run, learn the mechanics that you already know? ~Edited~ Or only if they were to ask?
5.If anyone else can think of some other constructive question please do. =3
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer
(edited by DiazKincade.2891)
I put a bit more thought into my last little note. A wild thought experiment appeared!
Question: If a temporary penalty to your magic find was put in place for dieing;
1. Would you be more inclined to try and stay alive?
2. Would you actively try and learn an enemy’s mechanics to avoid their bigger attacks?
3. Would you look more closely at your traits, weapons skills, and utility skills to try and find a more effective solution?
4. Would you be more inclined to help others , such as in the case of a pug dungeon run, learn the mechanics that you already know?
5.If anyone else can think of some other constructive question please do. =3
For me personally, no. I do not do content for the loot, though it is a nice bonus. I play content because I find it fun. I help other players because it’s in my nature to and I enjoy it. But not everyone is like that.
We keep talking about how the death penalty needs to be more harsh or needs to be less harsh, or that we need to reward better play. But at the end of the day, none of these are the real problem. The real problem is player mindsets. The fact is that there are some players who simply do not want to help their team and that they are ONLY there to get their loot as quickly as possible.
I’ve been thinking quite a bit about this topic (I create my own table top battle games, so these kinds of subjects interest me) and I have come to realise that rewards are just as much a cause of issues as death penalties are. Take a look at some of the old FPS games for example. The ones that do not have achievements or rewards tied to certain activities. The ones that only have a win or lose scenerio at the end. How do players play in those games? Well, the majority will try their hardest to help their team win, because that is the only reward the game offers. Now introduce knife & pistol kill achievements (a form of reward) and what do you get? Straight away you will have some players doing nothing but running around with a pistol or knife trying to get kills, and doing nothing else, potentially jeopardising the teams success in the process. And the more individual rewards you add the more selfish the individual players will get in order to get those rewards. So maybe some kind of team reward would be a better option, though I am not sure how you could implement that.
I may not have the answers to these problems, and I am not suggesting Anet should remove all rewards, but I can see what causes these problems and I hope to find some solutions for my own games in this regard. I also hope Anet can find solutions for their game. But to be honest, as the game stands at the moment, I do not have a problem with the death penalty at all. But it is an interesting topic.
For me personally, no. I do not do content for the loot, though it is a nice bonus. I play content because I find it fun. I help other players because it’s in my nature to and I enjoy it. But not everyone is like that.
We keep talking about how the death penalty needs to be more harsh or needs to be less harsh, or that we need to reward better play. But at the end of the day, none of these are the real problem. The real problem is player mindsets. The fact is that there are some players who simply do not want to help their team and that they are ONLY there to get their loot as quickly as possible.
I’ve been thinking quite a bit about this topic (I create my own table top battle games, so these kinds of subjects interest me) and I have come to realise that rewards are just as much a cause of issues as death penalties are. Take a look at some of the old FPS games for example. The ones that do not have achievements or rewards tied to certain activities. The ones that only have a win or lose scenerio at the end. How do players play in those games? Well, the majority will try their hardest to help their team win, because that is the only reward the game offers. Now introduce knife & pistol kill achievements (a form of reward) and what do you get? Straight away you will have some players doing nothing but running around with a pistol or knife trying to get kills, and doing nothing else, potentially jeopardising the teams success in the process. And the more individual rewards you add the more selfish the individual players will get in order to get those rewards. So maybe some kind of team reward would be a better option, though I am not sure how you could implement that.
I may not have the answers to these problems, and I am not suggesting Anet should remove all rewards, but I can see what causes these problems and I hope to find some solutions for my own games in this regard. I also hope Anet can find solutions for their game. But to be honest, as the game stands at the moment, I do not have a problem with the death penalty at all. But it is an interesting topic.
I doubt this mindset will get that many people interested. People play to get rewards. Those old FPS you mentioned. How many people still play those, when they have newer, flashier, more rewarding things to play? Chances are you would be able to boil it down to die hard fans and little else. Things change. Games change. Mentalities change.
You might not play that way, that is fine, but the majority of players play to feel like they have gotten something accomplished. Then like to show others what they did because they feel like they need to share their accomplishment with others. This is done more easily with an actual item. Trying to explain to everyone how you and your team managed a difficult task becomes a story that everyone around you will eventually get tired of hearing, while a trophy is something that sparks interest on its own.
Your topic about “pistol and knife” achievements has also lead some people to do “challenge” matches where all you can use is a pistol or a knife. These achievements are also usually accompanied by achievements involving not dieing, killing x number of guys in general, and killing x number of guys with other weapons. The truth is all of these are simply an attempt to add length to a game. Why do they keep popping up in games? Because the majority of players LIKE THEM. it is good to have goals. Achievements are one way of adding goals to a player who might not have any idea.
To be truthful the whole death system and how it effects others needs to be reworked. that is my main problem right now.
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer
I like the way the game is now, in this game you die a lot, mega events like temple events or Tequalt you can see a lot of people dying everywhere, I wouldn’t like to spend all my hard earned money to repair armor.
I like the way the game is now, in this game you die a lot, mega events like temple events or Tequalt you can see a lot of people dying everywhere, I wouldn’t like to spend all my hard earned money to repair armor.
The bolded was a recent change. Gw2 had that for most of its life.
You see people dieing a lot because not because the events are hard its because people don’t pay attention/can’t see the boss/don’t understand the mechanics/their pc barely runs the game. I have yet to die at any major world event in months in zerker gear on my mesmer (Not counting tequatl or THW). The fact that people are dieing so needlessly is that they don’t feel the need to actually do anything about it. In most cases of world bosses “zerg rush” wins. There are many elements here at work though so its not just the mentality at play. Particle effects go nuts in zergs and there’s little we can do about that.
The fact is people are so simple at times they refuse to learn the mechanics. And this is a major problem. For example, how many people know that the risen high priest of Melandru has a lethal melee spin move similar to warriors/fiery gs? yet people will constantly leap, charge, rush, blink into melee range on him, sometimes even WHILE he is spinning and wonder why they popped like a balloon. All the while people are sitting at range PERFECTLY FINE. Melee is (debatably) higher dps yes, but not when you are dead. This can be equated to not seeing him very easily thanks to the particle effects system in play, but simply KNOWING his moves can tell you that it would be far safer to range him than to melee him.
Another good example is the End boss of HotW p1 (Ginva? whatever. the Butcher guy). People will constantly try to melee him despite his massive melee damage, and when he suddenly starts spinning, which is very easy to identify, wonder why they suddenly popped. (That said I have seen some knowledgeable guys melee and break off when he spins) To that same effect ranged wonder why they suddenly start taking large chunks of damage and don’t even notice their own projectiles bouncing back at them.
A lot of cases of player death is more based on them not paying attention. Again the “death has no meaning” mentality only further builds on the “why do I need to care about living?” thus bringing a lot of people to zombie on this game.
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer
I like the way the game is now, in this game you die a lot, mega events like temple events or Tequalt you can see a lot of people dying everywhere, I wouldn’t like to spend all my hard earned money to repair armor.
They should try to make fights where massive death isnt the main method of success. The fact that some events play out this way is a pretty bad thing
(edited by phys.7689)
I like the way the game is now, in this game you die a lot, mega events like temple events or Tequalt you can see a lot of people dying everywhere, I wouldn’t like to spend all my hard earned money to repair armor.
They should try to make fights where massive death is the main method of success. The fact that some events play out this way is a pretty bad thing
That would be funny but highly impractical. Death only makes those alive have to fight that much harder. The fact that people don’t do more to fix this (as in not throwing their lives away needlessly thus making the fight lose that bit of dps but none of the added difficulty) is the problem. Continuously dieing to the same boss the same way just proves that people don’t feel the need to change tactics.
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer
I like the way the game is now, in this game you die a lot, mega events like temple events or Tequalt you can see a lot of people dying everywhere, I wouldn’t like to spend all my hard earned money to repair armor.
They should try to make fights where massive death is the main method of success. The fact that some events play out this way is a pretty bad thing
That would be funny but highly impractical. Death only makes those alive have to fight that much harder. The fact that people don’t do more to fix this (as in not throwing their lives away needlessly thus making the fight lose that bit of dps but none of the added difficulty) is the problem. Continuously dieing to the same boss the same way just proves that people don’t feel the need to change tactics.
my fault, typoed, meant to say isn’t heh
I put a bit more thought into my last little note. A wild thought experiment appeared!
Question: If a temporary penalty to your magic find was put in place for dieing;
1. Would you be more inclined to try and stay alive?
2. Would you actively try and learn an enemy’s mechanics to avoid their bigger attacks?
3. Would you look more closely at your traits, weapons skills, and utility skills to try and find a more effective solution?
4. Would you be more inclined to help others , such as in the case of a pug dungeon run, learn the mechanics that you already know?
5.If anyone else can think of some other constructive question please do. =3
1-3, I already do.
nuber 4, I’d be more wary of joining pugs, Unless they made it so one death is group penalty.. but, that will definitely risk more elitism in LFG.
I really don’t think a death penalty is needed for someone to do 1-3. Most people don’t want to die, you know.
I put a bit more thought into my last little note. A wild thought experiment appeared!
Question: If a temporary penalty to your magic find was put in place for dieing;
1. Would you be more inclined to try and stay alive?
2. Would you actively try and learn an enemy’s mechanics to avoid their bigger attacks?
3. Would you look more closely at your traits, weapons skills, and utility skills to try and find a more effective solution?
4. Would you be more inclined to help others , such as in the case of a pug dungeon run, learn the mechanics that you already know?
5.If anyone else can think of some other constructive question please do. =3
1-3, I already do.
number 4, I’d be more wary of joining pugs, Unless they made it so one death is group penalty.. but, that will definitely risk more elitism in LFG.I really don’t think a death penalty is needed for someone to do 1-3. Most people don’t want to die, you know.
Maybe, but if people didn’t want to die they wouldn’t melee rush bosses with well known 1 hit KO melee moves, like High Priest of Melandru.
I can respect your answer for #4. Not everyone wants to play a tutor. That’s fine. But by that same notion people don’t ask for help because they don’t expect a nice response.
As for elitism in LFG….we already have that, I doubt it would change much at all. And as I stated before death penalties are for and should only be for the one that died.
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer
For those asking for harder death penalties (compared to the original launch version), I’m curious to know how you would accommodate for someone like me, who has bad wrists. To me, this game has been a challenge from day 1, and is already restricting me to a handful of classes because the mechanics of most of them (i.e. thief, ele, grenade engi) I cannot physically do. I cannot ‘Zerk/DPS’ for the same reason, and I thankfully had found an understanding guild that cared more about having fun than being efficient.
Despite this, I had a lot of fun with this game the past two years, and was perfectly happy with the death system (coming from Eve Online, I’m sure you can imagine why – I consider it a vacation here!). Ironically, for all Eve’s complexity and frustrations, what it did not have was heavy amounts of ‘twitch’ in order to play well. At least physically; a group leader certainly needed a sharp mind when commanding. But you can argue the same for WvW too.
“The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever.” — Me
I like to view MMOs through the lazy eye of a Systems Admin, and the critical eye of a
Project Manager. You’ve been warned. ;-)
I like to view MMOs through the lazy eye of a Systems Admin, and the critical eye of a
Project Manager. You’ve been warned. ;-)
I put a bit more thought into my last little note. A wild thought experiment appeared!
Question: If a temporary penalty to your magic find was put in place for dieing;
1. Would you be more inclined to try and stay alive?
2. Would you actively try and learn an enemy’s mechanics to avoid their bigger attacks?
3. Would you look more closely at your traits, weapons skills, and utility skills to try and find a more effective solution?
4. Would you be more inclined to help others , such as in the case of a pug dungeon run, learn the mechanics that you already know?
5.If anyone else can think of some other constructive question please do. =3
1-3, I already do.
number 4, I’d be more wary of joining pugs, Unless they made it so one death is group penalty.. but, that will definitely risk more elitism in LFG.I really don’t think a death penalty is needed for someone to do 1-3. Most people don’t want to die, you know.
Maybe, but if people didn’t want to die they wouldn’t melee rush bosses with well known 1 hit KO melee moves, like High Priest of Melandru.
I can respect your answer for #4. Not everyone wants to play a tutor. That’s fine. But by that same notion people don’t ask for help because they don’t expect a nice response.
As for elitism in LFG….we already have that, I doubt it would change much at all. And as I stated before death penalties are for and should only be for the one that died.
The problem is in pug scenarios, people are less likely to help the one that goes down.
Or everyone will go range, because nobody wants to risk the death penalty.
That,s not playing better…just slower.