Guild Wars 2

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Snowywonders.1378:

Verdant Brink a “ginormous jump puzzles”
Draconis mons “impossible to travel without guides”

The worst part is these things are said as undisputable facts. It’s so sad. Hopefully Anet just ignores these trolls.

Yeah, VB is a “jump puzzle” because gliding into an updraft or jumping on to a bounce mushroom requires a great deal of proficiency, right?

Have you considered that players come into Verdant Brink with none of the masteries you are talking about? Clearly you haven’t.

Yeah, you’re right. I was one of the anointed few who was given access to all of the HoT masteries from the start. Lucky me!

So what does this have to do with the claim that VB is one gigantic “jump puzzle” exactly? The fact that you have to explore, play, and progress through the jungle was by design and I really don’t see how it precludes casual players at all.

I didn’t say it precluded casual players. We are talking about a person’s comment that VB is one big JP, which I agree with especially before you have most of the Masteries.

Rhanoa.3960:

STIHL.2489:

AliamRationem.5172:

The point being that speaking for casual players does not validate any of your points, because the fact is casuals are not a uniform group that play the way you do and share your views on the game.

If you followed the topic, you would see that it’s pretty clear that I do speak for the real casuals, not the wannabes’ that try to pass off as ones, so they can say “l2p” and think anyone will actually listen to them.

You do not represent the casuals and I am far from being a wannabe. Your experience in game is nothing more than subjective.

Over how much play time?

Vayne.8563:

DoctorDing.5890:

Rhanoa.3960:

It was a significant change

Bingo.

Games without significant changes often die faster than games with them The six guys that would still be playing core Tyria if is stayed at that difficulty would be happy as clams. Most of us would have played a lot less, because too easy is as bad as too hard. HoT kept me in the game. And I know for a fact I’m not alone.

Silverwastes and World Bosses are in Core Tyria. Your hyperbole is fail.

Djinn.9245:

Rhanoa.3960:

STIHL.2489:

AliamRationem.5172:

The point being that speaking for casual players does not validate any of your points, because the fact is casuals are not a uniform group that play the way you do and share your views on the game.

If you followed the topic, you would see that it’s pretty clear that I do speak for the real casuals, not the wannabes’ that try to pass off as ones, so they can say “l2p” and think anyone will actually listen to them.

You do not represent the casuals and I am far from being a wannabe. Your experience in game is nothing more than subjective.

Over how much play time?

With the way they proclaim that Casuals have ruined the game, but only have 6K after starting in beta in 2012, and love HoT, I am going to guess it’s some hardcores alt account at this point.

STIHL.2489:

Well, After getting to play the demo for a bit (and I really wish they had given us a HoT demo like this), I am willing to openly admit that it is much more palatable then HoT ever was, the maps seemed much easier to transverse, and it felt very close to how Core felt, which is a great thing. From the limited bit I played, this truly felt like what their first expansion should have been like, a nice smooth addition that feels like a continuation of the Core game, just a bit harder with some added new things going on.

It’s a beautiful game, and I can see why some people still plat it.

But, to be honest, I am just not feeling any urgency to invest, still feeling a bit burned by HoT.. so, gonna let this one simmer for a bit.

Thank you to the people that took the time to give me insight and answers.

I feel like the biggest problem with HoT (which I personally enjoyed) was that they dumped four “hardcore” maps at once, without any sort of less hardcore maps to offset them. I like the maps, and I think open world should have a mix of less mob-dense, more navigable maps with some more mob-dense, trickier maps. But at HoT launch, it was hard for players to know if this was an entirely new direction for open world maps or not. And I understand why that would give some players serious concerns.

I think that the six maps released for LS3 were a better blend of the core maps and the new HoT style. I also think that if they continue in that direction with the PoF and LS4 maps, then the open world map seen as a whole will have a healthy blend of casual and less casual elements, which should offer lots of content for all players.

In short, the HoT maps are a good addition to the game as a whole, as long as that isn’t how every map going forward is going to be designed, which it does not appear to be. But Anet did alienate a lot of players when those four maps were released, because we didn’t know if that was the new direction in general.

Parrish.7960:

Endest.5729:

Does not matter what you call them “casual”, low intesnsity", “noob”, etc. What really matters is that HoT was a massive failure. Never before has a AAA MMO had it first xpac fail utterly. EQ, WOW, FFXIV, etc all of these did not see a drop in players/income until they were three or four or more xpacs in.

These are public facts. Any one can look at the financial reports and see how GW2 income plunged. The lead designer was fired because HoT was such a failure.

So for the tens of thousands of ex-GW2 players who left because HoT was annoying (hard or easy is not the question). It failed because people did not like playing the zones. The vast majority of players did not care about hardcore raiding or eSports.

So question is did they learn their lesson. Will we get back to the orginal GW2 that sold by the truck loads. I am still not sure. But so far it seems like they are doing a few things right.

I came back to GW2 after a long absence and was really enjoying the base game. Then I hit the HoT content and not only did not enjoy it, actively disliked it. I thought, if this is where they are taking GW2, then I’m done. Really done.

So the question of whether GW2 is heading back to their original game concepts with PoF is very pertinent. I’m sure I’m not the only former-GW2 player trying to get a sense of whether PoF is more HoT or not, whether to be hopeful or simply resigned.

Anyway, I tried the demo but there wasn’t enough of it to make a conclusion about what direction the content is going or what the maps outside of the first city may look like.

The sad fact is that I so disliked HoT that I’m not going to be easily wooed back to GW2. PoF is going to have to be reviewed extensively and well-received by the community before I seriously consider it.

I feel very much the same way… gonna let PoE simmer a bit, see what happens after launch, while it looks promising, a much better direction then HoT, but it’s still too early to tell.

STIHL.2489:

Rhanoa.3960:

STIHL.2489:

Rhanoa.3960:

HOT didn’t fail, the Players DID!

A player is under no obligation to play or support game they don’t find fun. Leaving is always a viable and proper response to any game that not your liking.

When a company makes a game, the people that don’t find it fun either leave or stay around and whine that the game needs to change.

So lets get this clear, if players left the game.. then HoT failed to be fun to them.

Without doubt you’re not obligated. However, as a customer your experience overall is subjective as you and I do not experience it the same way. Do they both matter? Of course.

Though, claiming to represent the voices of all casual players is false and misleading.

Your problem is with HOT not being casual enough for you. My problem is which of the 9 Professions and Builds to use with so many available options.

Well, I never said ALL. There are always those the exceptions, but.. from what this topic has wrought, my views align with a substantial portion of the casual community. If you want to be some lone voice, by all means, go ahead, I won’t stop you, and I’ll gladly not speak up for you.

Feel better?

My thoughts regarding this entire topic aside, your statement here is a big problem with people on the forums. You assume you represent the standard casual player and other casual players are the exception to your rule. You cite the replies in this thread as evidence of that.

The forum is the vocal minority of players. Some negative, some positive. But someone who is upset at something in the game is more likely to voice that on the forums than someone who is content in the game. So the replies you see that agree with your opinions do not automatically represent the majority of casual players. They represent a small percentage of forum posters, who, in turn, represent a small percentage of the game’s total population.

Feedback on the forum is fine and can be productive. But no opinion expressed on a forum can ever be proven to represent a majority of players or the majority of a specific player type. It only proves a percentage of forum posters agree with something.

STIHL.2489:

Well, After getting to play the demo for a bit (and I really wish they had given us a HoT demo like this), I am willing to openly admit that it is much more palatable then HoT ever was, the maps seemed much easier to transverse, and it felt very close to how Core felt, which is a great thing. From the limited bit I played, this truly felt like what their first expansion should have been like, a nice smooth addition that feels like a continuation of the Core game, just a bit harder with some added new things going on.

It’s a beautiful game, and I can see why some people still plat it.

But, to be honest, I am just not feeling any urgency to invest, still feeling a bit burned by HoT.. so, gonna let this one simmer for a bit.

Thank you to the people that took the time to give me insight and answers.

Glad you enjoyed. Seeing for yourself is always the best approach. No one will know your tastes better than you do after all =)

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

DoctorDing.5890:

Rhanoa.3960:

It was a significant change

Bingo.

Games without significant changes often die faster than games with them The six guys that would still be playing core Tyria if is stayed at that difficulty would be happy as clams. Most of us would have played a lot less, because too easy is as bad as too hard. HoT kept me in the game. And I know for a fact I’m not alone.

Silverwastes and World Bosses are in Core Tyria. Your hyperbole is fail.

Most world bosses are kitten easy. Silverwastes is a zerg zone that’s kitten easy as well when there are enough people there. The same people that can’t handle HoT are likely to die solo in the Silverwastes.

In fact, there are people who can’t stand Drytop or the Silverwastes or Southsun either, because they’re too hard.

VB is not a giant jumping puzzle, you can walk from one end to the other, if you so choose. Yes jumping mushrooms and gliding are more convenient, but you can cross the area on foot by following roads. I know this because that’ how I did it.

Which means it’s not a giant jumping puzzle.

Vayne.8563:

VB is not a giant jumping puzzle, you can walk from one end to the other, if you so choose.

I have tried this with no luck, can you show me a guide of how to do this or a video?

Rashagar.8349:

STIHL.2489:

Well, After getting to play the demo for a bit (and I really wish they had given us a HoT demo like this), I am willing to openly admit that it is much more palatable then HoT ever was, the maps seemed much easier to transverse, and it felt very close to how Core felt, which is a great thing. From the limited bit I played, this truly felt like what their first expansion should have been like, a nice smooth addition that feels like a continuation of the Core game, just a bit harder with some added new things going on.

It’s a beautiful game, and I can see why some people still plat it.

But, to be honest, I am just not feeling any urgency to invest, still feeling a bit burned by HoT.. so, gonna let this one simmer for a bit.

Thank you to the people that took the time to give me insight and answers.

Glad you enjoyed. Seeing for yourself is always the best approach. No one will know your tastes better than you do after all =)

I am glad they had this demo, if the had done this for HoT, it may have saved themselves the heartache of all disenchanted and alienated players that erupted from it.

Wolfheart.7483:

My thoughts regarding this entire topic aside, your statement here is a big problem with people on the forums. You assume you represent the standard casual player and other casual players are the exception to your rule. You cite the replies in this thread as evidence of that.

Often enough, people will come posing as casuals or be blatant sock puppet accounts,
but they always give away little clues of what they really are, often involving lines like “Lean to play” or “Casuals ruined the game”

It’s not so much that I may or may not be an average casual.. it’s more about how far removed from being casual my critics are.

STIHL.2489:

Vayne.8563:

VB is not a giant jumping puzzle, you can walk from one end to the other, if you so choose.

I have tried this with no luck, can you show me a guide of how to do this or a video?

He just said “walk”, he didn’t say “accomplish anything”. Which if you are trying to do map completion, MPs, Story, etc. you can’t. So I’m really not sure what his point is except to be a red herring.

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Snowywonders.1378:

Verdant Brink a “ginormous jump puzzles”
Draconis mons “impossible to travel without guides”

The worst part is these things are said as undisputable facts. It’s so sad. Hopefully Anet just ignores these trolls.

Yeah, VB is a “jump puzzle” because gliding into an updraft or jumping on to a bounce mushroom requires a great deal of proficiency, right?

Have you considered that players come into Verdant Brink with none of the masteries you are talking about? Clearly you haven’t.

Yeah, you’re right. I was one of the anointed few who was given access to all of the HoT masteries from the start. Lucky me!

So what does this have to do with the claim that VB is one gigantic “jump puzzle” exactly? The fact that you have to explore, play, and progress through the jungle was by design and I really don’t see how it precludes casual players at all.

I didn’t say it precluded casual players. We are talking about a person’s comment that VB is one big JP, which I agree with especially before you have most of the Masteries.

You can call it a jump puzzle if you like, but it’s missing a key element of jump puzzles: technical jumping.

In my opinion, VB is better described as an exploration challenge. The pathways to various objectives are not obvious and require the player to look for ways to reach higher ground to glide from without relying upon the map.

Regardless of what you call it, I’m puzzled by the implication that this is somehow beyond the realm of the “casual” player. Is the premise that the casual player has too little time to “waste” on exploring without resorting to following a line on a map?

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Snowywonders.1378:

Verdant Brink a “ginormous jump puzzles”
Draconis mons “impossible to travel without guides”

The worst part is these things are said as undisputable facts. It’s so sad. Hopefully Anet just ignores these trolls.

Yeah, VB is a “jump puzzle” because gliding into an updraft or jumping on to a bounce mushroom requires a great deal of proficiency, right?

Have you considered that players come into Verdant Brink with none of the masteries you are talking about? Clearly you haven’t.

Yeah, you’re right. I was one of the anointed few who was given access to all of the HoT masteries from the start. Lucky me!

So what does this have to do with the claim that VB is one gigantic “jump puzzle” exactly? The fact that you have to explore, play, and progress through the jungle was by design and I really don’t see how it precludes casual players at all.

I didn’t say it precluded casual players. We are talking about a person’s comment that VB is one big JP, which I agree with especially before you have most of the Masteries.

You can call it a jump puzzle if you like, but it’s missing a key element of jump puzzles: technical jumping.

In my opinion, VB is better described as an exploration challenge. The pathways to various objectives are not obvious and require the player to look for ways to reach higher ground to glide from without relying upon the map.

Regardless of what you call it, I’m puzzled by the implication that this is somehow beyond the realm of the “casual” player. Is the premise that the casual player has too little time to “waste” on exploring without resorting to following a line on a map?

If you can’t aim your character in the direction you want to go, and then press auto run and go afk, then it is not casual. It’s not that hard to understand. You also have to use more than skill 1 and dodge. It is just not casual.

STIHL.2489:

“Casual” is a mindset, or more aptly put, an approach on how someone plays the game. In simple terms, “casual” defines their motive and drive, as opposed to being serious about the game, or hardcore. Truth is, being “Casual” is irrespective of skill or time played. As how many hours someone invests into a game or how skilled they are at playing a game, have no bearing the mindset they have or how they approach the game.

In short, a “Casual” is not looking for a something serious that they have to work at or treat like a job, they are looking to escape into a fantasy world as someone might take a casual stroll in the woods to escape the daily grind of life.

By following your definition, I’m a casual.

I get into Verdant Brink, I equip the fun build I enjoy the most (Flamethrower FTW!), jump from a cliff and begin to search for any close event to participate. I run across mobs I don’t want to fight, and surprise those I want to kill. I can prevail fairly often, but I’m killed often too, so I begin anew, usually in a different direction, following any of the outpost stories because they are just amazing.

Sometimes I just fly around from air vent to air vent, and try to discover ways to get into the canopy without using the copters, just because jumping puzzles are fun. I love exploring.

Sometimes, I cross routes with a commander or a zerg, and join them because zerging is also fun. I participate in meta map events when I see people preparing them, they are also fun. Taxi-ing is more complicated than I like things to be, that’s why I don’t do the metas more often.

I have leerned a lot of tricks, discovered many places, all while playing around for mere fun, without plannning, without using metabattle builds and without taking any part the game as a job. (In fact, the very first reason I don’t do Raids is because the organization is too demanding).

I LOVE HOT. It is challenging, fun and amazing to pass through. It keeps me engaged and active, while central tyria tends to bore me. Does this fact, suddenly, make me a “Hardcore”? Hardly. HOT is truly friendly to casuals, by the definition you posted. IMO you didn’t give it a chance, OR have mixed your arguments.

Snowywonders.1378:

If you can’t aim your character in the direction you want to go, and then press auto run and go afk, then it is not casual. It’s not that hard to understand. You also have to use more than skill 1 and dodge. It is just not casual.

So your definition of casual is AFK!!!!?

IndigoSundown.5419:

OP, while you may self-identify as casual, there is little agreement among all who so identify. Some think of the word as meaning preference for easy content; others for limited time spent playing; still others for solo-only play. There may be as many understandings of what “casual” means as there are people using the term.

Based on what little you’ve told us, I’m going to guess your definition refers to dislike for vertical navigation and maybe dislike for HoT mob difficulty, thought the latter is a leap.

What I can do is tell you a few things.

• Living Story Season 3 zones moved a bit away from HoT design parameters in some ways, but not in others.

1. There are event chains, but no over-arching map meta such as we see in the 4 HoT zones. Participating in events is more on a drop-in basis, as we saw in core, and less dependent on consulting timer sites and hoping to use LFG to get to the one or two active map copies.
2. Mobs in LSS3 zones are not particularly difficult, with a few exceptions. Some of them do have what I find to be annoying mechanics (When you “kill” a White Mantle Mesmer, for instance, it turns out you’ve killed his/her clone, and then need to kill him/her, all while it and then s/he are spamming the bright pink beam of Mesmer Greatsword 1 at you).
3. There is still a vertical component to movement in LSS3 maps, but I find getting around in them to be quite a bit easier, as there is a lot less of the trademark ANet, “Can’t get there from here.”

Perhaps those map designs are going to be indicative of what see in PoF, just as Silverwastes and to some extent Dry Top were precursors to HoT.

As to PoF, we know little. There will be huge zones. There will be bounties. There will doubtless be events. There will be Elite Specs and doubtless some means to unlock them. There will be mounts which have unique movement capabilities, and those capabilities will be necessary to get to some places on the maps. Mounts look to be obtained via Masteries, though we do not know as yet if there will be any major substantive changes to how Masteries are acquired.

As to whether any of that constitutes “casual-friendly” or “casual-unfriendly” to what casual means to you, well, only you can answer that. Bear in mind that the preceding is some amount of pattern analysis and some amount of guesswork coupled with the facts revealed in the PoF announcement. The best, and only really reliable indication of whether PoF will suit you or not is going to be trying it yourself, and the only cost to try the free beta weekends is the large download.

‘mounts’ are just glorified jump mechanics locked behind a mastery system/grind and they look to have made the same mistake with mastery points (mini games, ffs) as in HoT.

‘mounts’ are required as PoF is just one great big Super Marios level platform game but with the grind and locks added.

If you didn’t like HoT maps you’re unlikely to like the PoF maps much either, as it looks like the required jump skills, oops, ‘mounts’ are gated behind exp/mastery.

I’ll be giving it a go, but mainly getting the expansion because of wvw and the need for new skills etc in wvw to remain competitive- although no doubt they will have nerfed ele into the ground whilst boosting thief to ranged OPness.

Ardid.7203:

Snowywonders.1378:

If you can’t aim your character in the direction you want to go, and then press auto run and go afk, then it is not casual. It’s not that hard to understand. You also have to use more than skill 1 and dodge. It is just not casual.

So your definition of casual is AFK!!!!?

No. In old core tyria I could attack a mob, leave skill 1 on auto use and then go to the washroom or cook. I would come back and I would have full health still because of healing signet. Now in HOT I cant??? Why did anet leave casuals behind? The betrayal was just too much. I just do not understand why were abandonded. And not to mention what is with VB?? I enter the map and right in my face theres 100 jumping puzzles, why??

This thread is not very helpful because the term casual is too broad. Everyone seems to have their own definition. Perhaps if op could bulletpoint what it is that the developers need to remember that would be helpful.

STIHL.2489:

No, see, unlike some people that puttered around for years crying about the game and how it needed to be harder to suite their playstyle, or fussed endlessly for raids, when the game was no longer to my liking… I left.

What is truly ironic, is that some people would say “if you don’t like it, leave!” and yet they remain and fuss incessantly that the game needs to be change, as opposed to you know, following their own advice and leaving.

<snicker>

AliamRationem.5172:

You’ve spent much of this thread telling others that they don’t have a voice because they don’t meet your definition of casual. So yes, yes you did.

He never said anything like that.

STIHL.2489:

Wolfheart.7483:

My thoughts regarding this entire topic aside, your statement here is a big problem with people on the forums. You assume you represent the standard casual player and other casual players are the exception to your rule. You cite the replies in this thread as evidence of that.

Often enough, people will come posing as casuals or be blatant sock puppet accounts,
but they always give away little clues of what they really are, often involving lines like “Lean to play” or “Casuals ruined the game”

It’s not so much that I may or may not be an average casual.. it’s more about how far removed from being casual my critics are.

When I think of Casual it’s always been about occasional, temporary, & part time. When I can squeeze it into my busy life. This is me

But Casual Player/Gamer evolved into Simplicity, less demanding of time and learning skills. This is not me

So, yes you can say I am not a Casual I guess.

With only 2475 hours 44 minutes over the past 1815 days.
-9 level 80’s
-Hate Crafting
-No Legendaries
-1 World Completion
-Semi- Occasional LW
-Semi- Occasional Fractals
-Occasional Pvp
-WvW before large guild break up Pre-HOT
-Often- World Events in HOT
-No Raids(As much I enjoy nailing down the game Mechanics & Professions I Hate forced Meta Builds)IMO get rid of Boss timers it doesn’t have to be a race that’s just me.

Other than that I am a total Underachiever!

Ashen.2907:

Personally, I think that, especially in an MMO, 15 hours per week is well within the realm of casual.

I agree. I’ve spent over 25 hours a week, but I’m definitely casual. I don’t think hours played is a defining characteristic of casual.

Actually, the definition of the word “casual” seems to be pretty casually-stated.

So, the word “casual” probably isn’t limited to any one definition. It’s probably more of a section of a continuum. Things like:

• Many hours vs. few hours.
• Solo vs. group-centric attitudes.
• Easy play vs. hard play.
• Structured play vs. unstructured.

and probably a lot more. Casuals would tend to be on one side of any summary of those tallies, and hardcores on the other. But, no one thing “defines” either group.

Daddicus.6128:

AliamRationem.5172:

You’ve spent much of this thread telling others that they don’t have a voice because they don’t meet your definition of casual. So yes, yes you did.

He never said anything like that.

He quite literally did.

He even told people their opinions, don’t matter because they aren’t his viewpoints.

Rhanoa.3960:

HOT didn’t fail, the Players DID!

This is false. By the statement of the CEO and the financial beating the company took, HoT was a total disaster. There really is no grounds for saying it didn’t fail.

Now, you are correct that the player’s failed. But, not the way you are thinking it. HoT failed BECAUSE the majority of the players failed … to find it enjoyable.

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

HOT didn’t fail, the Players DID!

This is false. By the statement of the CEO and the financial beating the company took, HoT was a total disaster. There really is no grounds for saying it didn’t fail.

Now, you are correct that the player’s failed. But, not the way you are thinking it. HoT failed BECAUSE the majority of the players failed … to find it enjoyable.

HoT failed ?

Coulda fooled me with the pre-sales/sales numbers of just the expansion and the ever steady gemstore purchases.

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

To be fair, the core game failed some players just as HoT failed some players.

STIHL.2489:

Vayne.8563:

DoctorDing.5890:

Rhanoa.3960:

It was a significant change

Bingo.

Games without significant changes often die faster than games with them The six guys that would still be playing core Tyria if is stayed at that difficulty would be happy as clams. Most of us would have played a lot less, because too easy is as bad as too hard. HoT kept me in the game. And I know for a fact I’m not alone.

This is not true at all. Case in point, EQ didn’t significantly change their game, they merely added to it. In essence, they added levels, which progressed the game, but did do while keeping with the established systems and style of play that the base game was built off of, there were no major system shocks, or massive overhauls on how the game felt from one expansion to the next, the transition from Norrath to Kunark, felt smooth, the Kunark Expansion felt like it belonged in the world of Norrath, making a fitting addition to the game.

Whereas, HoT was an abject change to how the game felt when you played, it didn’t feel like a smooth transition at all.

Ergo, games may need to grow, but they don’t in effect need to overhaul level changes to stay alive, in fact.. subtle small changes are what keep games alive, additions keep games alive.. substantial shocking changes have historically always done more harm then good.

I don’t do this often, but I have to agree with Vayne. Not philosophically, but on the specific issue of “do games have to change or die?”

They really do. They have to give players things to do that aren’t just the same things as they’ve done before.

My disagreement with Vayne is on how MUCH games must change, not whether they have to or not.

Players want new content. And, even casuals like me want new challenges. But, I don’t want overwhelming challenges. Vayne seems to thrive on not just the challenges, but the eventual defeat of those challenges (which s/he does via hard work).

As a casual, my preference is for different challenges, not so much harder challenges.

But, ANet must satisfy both of us, or die. Financially, I think they have to lean more heavily in the casual direction, because that’s where most of their money comes from.

So, I haven’t lobbied to return completely to the original GW2 model. I’m more of a half-way kind of player. Some day … SOME day …, I might want to tangle with those really hard challenges that people like Vayne have asked ANet to implement. So, I agree with Vayne (and others) that some of those challenges need to exist.

Unfortunately for HoT, I think ANet tried to move to hard in that direction, and they did it throughout the HoT game play. It was almost too much for me, and it was too much for you. I mean, if I have to be honest, Draconis Mons has tougher enemies than Verdant Brink.

The difference, and the reason I like it, is that there are a lot fewer of those very difficult fights. And, you can avoid them. Yes, if you want achievement points, you eventually have to tangle with them. But, in HoT, you had to tangle with really hard enemies just getting to the battles that had achievements attached.

There were three areas (in my opinion) where HoT failed: mapping, gating, and difficulty. They eased the gating, and significantly eased difficulty. But, mapping is still a chore and a pain, and there are still too many overlapping difficult places.

LWS3 has overcome those areas, generally. Yes, there’s a very badly mapped Draconis Mons (episode 5). And, there are places where the events and challenges are too hard (IMO), like some areas of Lake Doric and Bloodstone Fen. But, overall, it’s quite good.

If PoF is similar in casualness to LWS3, I’ll like it. A lot. But, if it doesn’t include enough challenges that require peak playing skill, Vayne won’t. And, s/he will be correct.

It’s got to be a balance. The game as a whole needs to have enough variability to accommodate both the majority of casuals AND the majority of hardcores.

STIHL.2489:

But, to be honest, I am just not feeling any urgency to invest, still feeling a bit burned by HoT.. so, gonna let this one simmer for a bit.

I feel exactly the same way. I most likely will end up shelling out the money. But, will I keep playing? Not so sure. Mapping is still an abject disaster in vertical zones. And, the new idea of having to identify treasure galls me. I put up with that in GW; it was a blessing and a relief to NOT have to deal with it in GW2.

So, I do recommend buying LWS3. It’s $10, which is cheaper than PoF. And, it will help invest you in the story line, too. (More detail than that would be spoilers.)

If PoF doesn’t include LWS3, that will be money well spent. Only if it’s included will you regret spending it, I think.

And, if you ever want to go back to HoT to test the waters, ring me in-game. There’s still a LOT I need to do there, and trust me, I won’t get mad at you for being casual.

Djinn.9245:

STIHL.2489:

Vayne.8563:

VB is not a giant jumping puzzle, you can walk from one end to the other, if you so choose.

I have tried this with no luck, can you show me a guide of how to do this or a video?

He just said “walk”, he didn’t say “accomplish anything”. Which if you are trying to do map completion, MPs, Story, etc. you can’t. So I’m really not sure what his point is except to be a red herring.

Oh good catch! Thanks for pointing that out!

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

HOT didn’t fail, the Players DID!

This is false.

Well it’s sorta true, I mean, when you think about it, the players that loved HoT, did not step up and fill the fiscal void left by the players that hated it.

So in essence, the players that Loved HoT failed Anet by not investing back into the company that chose to cater to them.

STIHL.2489:

Vayne.8563:

VB is not a giant jumping puzzle, you can walk from one end to the other, if you so choose.

I have tried this with no luck, can you show me a guide of how to do this or a video?

I think that’s because mapping VB is very different from simply traversing it. To simply make your way across, I found the best way is to go through the story. Unfortunately, that means collecting enough XP to get a couple of required masteries: bounding mushrooms, gliding, and updrafts.

But, if you really want to just walk across, probably the easiest way is to go north from the entrance until you get near the Batrach Falls PoI. Then, backtrack a bit and take the west-leading road that crosses the river.

Follow the actual trail until you get to the Last Leap PoI (or just past the Brooding Gulch PoI). The road zig-zags there, but your goal is to keep going straight west.

Then you’ll keep going until you get to a dead end that has two bridges, one pointing WSW and the other SSW. Take the SSW one, and keep going roughly SSW into Coztic Grounds. Take the west-leading path, until you get to a gigantic tree that contuse the path west.

Then, keep following the path. It gradually turns SW and then S, until you hit the next zone.

I recommend the story method, though. But, to get the XP for the needed masteries, abandon VB and head to one of the LWS3 zones. Collect the XP there, but not the masteries from LWS3. Instead, take the masteries from HoT. That will make it a LOT easier to get around in HoT.

Daddicus.6128:

STIHL.2489:

Vayne.8563:

VB is not a giant jumping puzzle, you can walk from one end to the other, if you so choose.

I have tried this with no luck, can you show me a guide of how to do this or a video?

I think that’s because mapping VB is very different from simply traversing it. To simply make your way across, I found the best way is to go through the story. Unfortunately, that means collecting enough XP to get a couple of required masteries: bounding mushrooms, gliding, and updrafts.

But, if you really want to just walk across, probably the easiest way is to go north from the entrance until you get near the Batrach Falls PoI. Then, backtrack a bit and take the west-leading road that crosses the river.

Follow the actual trail until you get to the Last Leap PoI (or just past the Brooding Gulch PoI). The road zig-zags there, but your goal is to keep going straight west.

Then you’ll keep going until you get to a dead end that has two bridges, one pointing WSW and the other SSW. Take the SSW one, and keep going roughly SSW into Coztic Grounds. Take the west-leading path, until you get to a gigantic tree that contuse the path west.

Then, keep following the path. It gradually turns SW and then S, until you hit the next zone.

I recommend the story method, though. But, to get the XP for the needed masteries, abandon VB and head to one of the LWS3 zones. Collect the XP there, but not the masteries from LWS3. Instead, take the masteries from HoT. That will make it a LOT easier to get around in HoT.

Thanks for the Info!

I’ll look into that!

TexZero.7910:

HoT failed ?

Coulda fooled me with the pre-sales/sales numbers of just the expansion and the ever steady gemstore purchases.

So, the CEO, what, lied?

Further, the failure was precisely because of the presale numbers. Those players spent their money, and expected something. But, they were given something very different from that expectation. They were burned, and that cost the company a great deal of player good will. ANet and NCSoft knew that this would prevent many sales of the second expansion. (Which it has, as is witnessed right here in this thread.)

That’s almost certainly the reason we got a preview. They simply cannot afford another HoT.

Daddicus.6128:

They simply cannot afford another HoT.

Preach it!

Ashen.2907:

To be fair, the core game failed some players just as HoT failed some players.

Agreed.

The problem is in equating those two things’ impact. The populations affected are very different quantities.

I think the biggest overall reason HoT failed (as an entity, not how it failed certain players) is that ANet listed to a very vocal minority. And, they looked at their history: GW1 added “hard mode” to accommodate that same demographic.

The problem is that they implemented an entire expansion heavily targeting those players.

As someone earlier said, if Hot had been four zones, but only one of which was really hard, it would have been much better received. Or, if they didn’t have so much XP/mastery gating. Or, if they had provided an adequate set of mapping tools to accommodate the new verticality.

But, ALL of the zones are difficult to navigate, and ALL of the zones were of extreme difficulty just to walk around in them. (Change in tense is intended.)

Daddicus.6128:

TexZero.7910:

HoT failed ?

Coulda fooled me with the pre-sales/sales numbers of just the expansion and the ever steady gemstore purchases.

So, the CEO, what, lied?

Further, the failure was precisely because of the presale numbers. Those players spent their money, and expected something. But, they were given something very different from that expectation. They were burned, and that cost the company a great deal of player good will. ANet and NCSoft knew that this would prevent many sales of the second expansion. (Which it has, as is witnessed right here in this thread.)

That’s almost certainly the reason we got a preview. They simply cannot afford another HoT.

Show me anywhere where Mo said HoT failed.

I’ll wait for it.

Additionally horrible logic, we got a demo weekend for literally the same reason we had a HoT beta weekend. Hype. Literally as simple as that, hype generates sales, just as it did for HoT.

The only people who legit think HoT failed are the same people who misunderstand the quaterly reports and look at a less than 1% decrease in Gemstore sales as a statement for how the game is currently running.

One more thing, STIHL: If you start the first LWS2 episode first, there are two major spoilers for HoT that show up. MAJOR spoilers. If you don’t care much about the HoT story line, that’s OK.

But, if you would like to hold out hope for eventually playing through HoT, at least at the story level, then maybe you should have someone go through the HoT storyline with you first (I’ll help; I still have 15 characters that need to go through at least part of it). Or, read through it on the Wiki. And, use Bitterfrost Frontier (episode 3, A Crack in the Ice) as a starting place. The spoilers there aren’t too revealing if you don’t actually do the story once you’ve made it into the zone.

TexZero.7910:

Daddicus.6128:

TexZero.7910:

HoT failed ?

Coulda fooled me with the pre-sales/sales numbers of just the expansion and the ever steady gemstore purchases.

So, the CEO, what, lied?

Further, the failure was precisely because of the presale numbers. Those players spent their money, and expected something. But, they were given something very different from that expectation. They were burned, and that cost the company a great deal of player good will. ANet and NCSoft knew that this would prevent many sales of the second expansion. (Which it has, as is witnessed right here in this thread.)

That’s almost certainly the reason we got a preview. They simply cannot afford another HoT.

Show me anywhere where Mo said HoT failed.

I’ll wait for it.

Additionally horrible logic, we got a demo weekend for literally the same reason we had a HoT beta weekend. Hype. Literally as simple as that, hype generates sales, just as it did for HoT.

The only people who legit think HoT failed are the same people who misunderstand the quaterly reports and look at a less than 1% decrease in Gemstore sales as a statement for how the game is currently running.

If, lets just say IF, HoT was as much a smashing success as you claim.. why is the new expansion nothing at all like it? You would think if what HoT put out was where the money was.. they would make more of it.. Hummmmm.

Daddicus.6128:

Ashen.2907:

Personally, I think that, especially in an MMO, 15 hours per week is well within the realm of casual.

I agree. I’ve spent over 25 hours a week, but I’m definitely casual. I don’t think hours played is a defining characteristic of casual.

Actually, the definition of the word “casual” seems to be pretty casually-stated.

So, the word “casual” probably isn’t limited to any one definition. It’s probably more of a section of a continuum. Things like:

• Many hours vs. few hours.
• Solo vs. group-centric attitudes.
• Easy play vs. hard play.
• Structured play vs. unstructured.

and probably a lot more. Casuals would tend to be on one side of any summary of those tallies, and hardcores on the other. But, no one thing “defines” either group.

I agree. As I said before, the most defining characteristic of “casual” from my WoW experience was an unwillingness to schedule one’s life around the game. Generally, this referred to raiding, where any one individual’s schedule must align with the needs of the 9-39 other players in the group.

A corollary of that is that players who didn’t raid tended to be (mostly) solo players. And because any player that was insufficiently skilled and/or experienced with the game to raid generally didn’t raid, and was therefore likely to be a solo player, being a solo player was often associated with a lack of skill as well.

That may define the “average” casual player, but I don’t think it fits all of them. I consider myself at least somewhat casual because I dislike organized group PvE. I have only 2 raid boss kills (VG and that escort boss) and my fractal level isn’t very high either. As a result, I spend most of my time solo and I generally refuse to commit to showing up to play for group gameplay, as a rule.

On the other hand, I loved exploring the HoT maps and I can solo every hero point champion, every bandit champion (including the legendary executioner), I hit platinum rank my first season in PvP, too. And I spend quite a lot of time playing GW2. I also have 3 legendaries crafted so far and did every achievement in SAB this year.

Probably not the “average” casual, but I am a mostly solo player that won’t commit to group content on a schedule.

STIHL.2489:

Vayne.8563:

VB is not a giant jumping puzzle, you can walk from one end to the other, if you so choose.

I have tried this with no luck, can you show me a guide of how to do this or a video?

I’ll walk you if you like. I don’t have a guide or video. Best to take the south road from the first waypoint Shipwreck Peak, down to the area south of it. Crossing that area leads to a rope bridge. In fact, if you follow that first event chain (the pale reaver chain, it takes you to the top of the Shrouded ruines. However all you need is the Shrouded Ruins waypoint.

From there, you can travel west, upstairs and around the Dust Dance Plateu which takes you to Thistleback Revine.

If you don’t mind a tiny bit of gliding, I prefer to glide off the top of the Dustmite Dance Plateau, but you don’t have to, that’s just my preference. If you don’t glde, you follow the trail around through Thistlevine, but keep heading west. Eventually you’ll get to a big round area with mushrooms in it, and turn south over the bridge.

Soon as you can go west again. That will take you to Noble ledges If you go along north from noble ledges. From there it’s relatively easy to get to the last waypoint in the zone.

There’s a northern route too that’s more circuitous. but it’s definitely doable.

How the hell is Anet supposed to remember the casuals when nobody really knows what casual actually means?

Again, this thread is useless because everyone seems to have a different meaning assigned to the word casual.

Op….. Please provide specific points as to what the developers need to remember!!!

Dashingsteel.3410:

How the hell is Anet supposed to remember the casuals when nobody really knows what casual actually means?

Again, this thread is useless because everyone seems to have a different meaning assigned to the word casual.

Op….. Please provide specific points as to what the developers need to remember!!!

Linear and easy game play.

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

AliamRationem.5172:

Daddicus.6128:

Ashen.2907:

Personally, I think that, especially in an MMO, 15 hours per week is well within the realm of casual.

I agree. I’ve spent over 25 hours a week, but I’m definitely casual. I don’t think hours played is a defining characteristic of casual.

Actually, the definition of the word “casual” seems to be pretty casually-stated.

So, the word “casual” probably isn’t limited to any one definition. It’s probably more of a section of a continuum. Things like:

• Many hours vs. few hours.
• Solo vs. group-centric attitudes.
• Easy play vs. hard play.
• Structured play vs. unstructured.

and probably a lot more. Casuals would tend to be on one side of any summary of those tallies, and hardcores on the other. But, no one thing “defines” either group.

I agree. As I said before, the most defining characteristic of “casual” from my WoW experience was an unwillingness to schedule one’s life around the game. Generally, this referred to raiding, where any one individual’s schedule must align with the needs of the 9-39 other players in the group.

A corollary of that is that players who didn’t raid tended to be (mostly) solo players. And because any player that was insufficiently skilled and/or experienced with the game to raid generally didn’t raid, and was therefore likely to be a solo player, being a solo player was often associated with a lack of skill as well.

That may define the “average” casual player, but I don’t think it fits all of them. I consider myself at least somewhat casual because I dislike organized group PvE. I have only 2 raid boss kills (VG and that escort boss) and my fractal level isn’t very high either. As a result, I spend most of my time solo and I generally refuse to commit to showing up to play for group gameplay, as a rule.

On the other hand, I loved exploring the HoT maps and I can solo every hero point champion, every bandit champion (including the legendary executioner), I hit platinum rank my first season in PvP, too. And I spend quite a lot of time playing GW2. I also have 3 legendaries crafted so far and did every achievement in SAB this year.

Probably not the “average” casual, but I am a mostly solo player that won’t commit to group content on a schedule.

Now, given how many people have said, (in this topic alone) that GW2 is very casual friendly, that it’s demographic is made up mostly of what gamers from games like WoW would consider casual players, which is easy enough to believe, given how Solo Friendly GW2’s design is, couple that with how much time you have invested into it (which I am going to be bet was more then you put into WoW, since the was more appealing to you, given how much easier it is then WoW to get to the end game and be optimally equipped) that by GW2 standards you fall into the category of a Serous Player?

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

You realize that not meeting predictions, is Failure.. right?

Ardid.7203:

STIHL.2489:

“Casual” is a mindset, or more aptly put, an approach on how someone plays the game. In simple terms, “casual” defines their motive and drive, as opposed to being serious about the game, or hardcore. Truth is, being “Casual” is irrespective of skill or time played. As how many hours someone invests into a game or how skilled they are at playing a game, have no bearing the mindset they have or how they approach the game.

In short, a “Casual” is not looking for a something serious that they have to work at or treat like a job, they are looking to escape into a fantasy world as someone might take a casual stroll in the woods to escape the daily grind of life.

By following your definition, I’m a casual.

I get into Verdant Brink, I equip the fun build I enjoy the most (Flamethrower FTW!), jump from a cliff and begin to search for any close event to participate. I run across mobs I don’t want to fight, and surprise those I want to kill. I can prevail fairly often, but I’m killed often too, so I begin anew, usually in a different direction, following any of the outpost stories because they are just amazing.

Sometimes I just fly around from air vent to air vent

If you flew around when you first got to VB, I wouldn’t admit it…

After getting the masteries to move around freely and certainly by now I’m sure a lot of people are fine. And Anet nerfed HoT also of course.

But as has already been pointed out many times in these forums, some people are just inherently better at GW2 than others. I don’t do nearly as well with my Engi in VB as you seem to.

TexZero.7910:

The only people who legit think HoT failed are the same people who misunderstand the quaterly reports and look at a less than 1% decrease in Gemstore sales as a statement for how the game is currently running.

The median gem store sales before HoT (and during, based on NCSoft report including a statement that gem store sales were “stable” during Q4/15, the HoT launch quarter) were quite a bit higher than the new median since Q2/16. Referring to a “less than 1% decrease” is inaccurate when considering the entire period in which HoT has been the latest product.

However, despite the erroneous statement, the decrease is not necessarily all due to HoT. Other factors are likely also causes, and include things like:

• People achieving goals which require gold purchases who stop spending for gems to exchange for gold.
• The natural attrition all games suffer as they age.
• Gem store offerings not appealing to everyone, leading to reduced spending to get them. If people have what they want, and new stuff does not tickle their fancy, there is no need for them to spend.
• The “content drought” between HoT release in Q4/15 and the release of LS3 Episode 1 in Q3/16. What is most telling about the drought is that the first significant decline in store revenue since the HoT reveal in Q1/15 is noted in Q2/16, which was during the latter portion of the drought.

Then, there’s the ginormous gap between “HoT failed” and the official statement that “HoT did not perform as expected.”