Guild Wars 2

This post is one of those… to help improve the Glass Cannon Meta disaster in the game. (that oll horse) If you think that the game is ok in it’s current situation where everyone and their mother is wearing Zerker, and the defensive builds are being kicked out of groups, you shouldn’t post here.
Also. Read the whole thing before ranting about every single step.

So….

Step 1:
Make all CC scale with Defensive and Support (and generally the unpopular) attributes. Perhaps even those CC that look like conditions if necessary.
One that comes to mind for example as a useless attribute is toughness. While it might have some use in PVP, no-one chooses more than a few points in it, as all decent players would rather learn to dodge properly.

Step 2:
Give all enemies bellow champion a permanent defiance bar, that won’t prevent CC. Make it in a Different color or shape if you like. (You know… “Defiance” is no longer the right name. Lets call it “Stagger bar”.)
Using CC on enemies will have the same effect, and at the same time Diminish the Stagger Bar.

Step 3:
Enemies whose Stagger/Defiance Bar gets depleted wont become extra vulnerable.
Instead they’ll become stomp-able!
Staggered enemies will be stomp-able similar to “Bloodborne” by each player once.
Stomping the living will cause massive damage, irrelevant to the player’s Power or Precision, and will not use/consume finisher animations.
For Veteran and above, the amount of damage a staggered enemy can receive will be capped, so enemies wont be one-shoted by the group, and not all enemies in the zerg should feel that they should go in the front and do their stomp.

What to expect:

• You’ll need to invest on more than one attribute to buff all of your character’s CC.
• DPS builds will generally be more effective in dispatching enemies solo. It’s only fair since the others will have extra survivability.
• DPS builds will generally have a hard time depleting the Stagger bar of normal and some veteran enemies before killing them when solo. Their CC will be to low, and their damage to high.
• Staggering and stomping a normal enemy should usually one-shot him of his remaining health with 60-80% total health damage.
• Staggering and stomping a Veteran should cause 15-30% of total health damage. Having friends around to stomp as well should rise it to 60% of total health damage before it gets cap-ed.
• Staggering and stomping an Elite should cause 5-15% of total health damage. Having friends around to stomp as well should rise it to 40% of total health damage before it gets cap-ed.
• Staggering and stomping a Champion should cause 1-5% of total health damage. Having friends around to stomp as well should rise it to 25% of total health damage before it gets cap-ed.
• Stomping Champions should generally do the same amount of damage as DPS-ing them while they are vulnerable.
• If this system is to be translated to PVP, then some attribute is needed to resist the increased CC and extend the player’s stagger bar. (vitality Perhaps) Stomping a living player will cause 10k damage, and if the player dies he’ll become directly defeated instead of downed. It would be ok however if players don’t have stagger bars at all. (might ruin the fun)

Long story short:

Unused/Unpopular Attributes.

+

CC doesn’t scale with any attribute.

=

A new fun mechanic.

While I believe most of your ideas are actually very good, think of the work it would take to implement them: it’s basically an overhaul of the whole system because everything will have to be rescaled; We don’t know if some boss will be plain broken because of this or if some class won’t become the new all around meta with it (lfg DH only no necros allowed?) and then people will complain anyway. These changes would make for a great game, but it would probably not even look like GW2 anymore.

Furthermore, the real reason for zerker meta is that damage can be avoided rather than taken, in every single case. Theoretically, as long as you’re good at dodging, there’s nothing you have to actually endure, and when you really have to (e.g Sabetha) you can heal through it anyway and keep dodging the actual damaging attacks. This is intrinsic to the dodge mechanic, and intrinsic to the game’s action style, nothing’s gonna change it…actually your stagger mechanic would, but mobs already take increased damage when you CC them and no one does it…so yeah, would it really work?

maxwelgm.4315:

While I believe most of your ideas are actually very good, think of the work it would take to implement them: it’s basically an overhaul of the whole system because everything will have to be rescaled; We don’t know if some boss will be plain broken because of this or if some class won’t become the new all around meta with it (lfg DH only no necros allowed?) and then people will complain anyway. These changes would make for a great game, but it would probably not even look like GW2 anymore.

I ALWAYS think of the work that has to be done!
Wasted work is the REASON I made this suggestion!
I wouldn’t have bothered to write all of this in my non-speaking language while being dyslexic if I didn’t think the problem was serious enough. In each patch and expantion the devs introduce new stat combinations in every new area, yet all players go for Zerker and some for condi.
How’s that for a wasted workload?!
80% of the game’s gear is wasted work, if the zerker meta isn’t fixed.

I don’t expect a change like this anytime before an expansion and a half later (when new elite specializations get introduced to balance class deficiencies), and when it happens, I expect A-net to announce it 3 months in advance for people to start gathering gear.

Besides, I thought it in such way that doesn’t diminish the other builds. Necros will still be usefull. On the other hand I main an Engi and a Guardian, and I get kicked out of raids because “those classes aren’t very useful there”

Furthermore, the real reason for zerker meta is that damage can be avoided rather than taken, in every single case. Theoretically, as long as you’re good at dodging, there’s nothing you have to actually endure, and when you really have to (e.g Sabetha) you can heal through it anyway and keep dodging the actual damaging attacks. This is intrinsic to the dodge mechanic, and intrinsic to the game’s action style, nothing’s gonna change it…actually your stagger mechanic would, but mobs already take increased damage when you CC them and no one does it…so yeah, would it really work?

The first example specifically I mentioned when said “Useless/Unpopular attributes” in step one is toughness. All actions besides DPS and Dots are very functional without a single point invested in them.

I also mentioned that little will change when zerging a champion with these changes, besides the following.

1. Having more CC players will cause it’s life to drop slower but the boss will stagger more often.
2. Stomping it, will do about the same damage as zerging it when vulnerable (it’ll even be capped to ensure it won’t get out of balance), but it will no longer depend on the DPS builds to do that damage.
3. Defensive builds will now be able to beat a mob in reasonable time by triggering a stomp.
4. Defensive Builds will be equally useful on new players who haven’t mastered the ability to dodge yet, and veterans who mastered the ability to CC. Besides, many CC’s are slow and/or immobilize your character in some way, preventing proper dodging.

Some potential in the idea, but the bigger problem is how the Defiance Bar gets used at all. The critical problem is the bar’s “all or nothing” approach to crowd control skills. And in some cases, that bar is locked entirely (looking at you Crazed Whispers Agent…).

Defiance could be much more subtle, allowing some effects while depleting the bar anything they are negated, using internal cooldowns on some effects like Cripple or Chill to balance how frequently an enemy has them active. Then we’d actually have strategic control over champion-level enemies and there’d be some use outside of soft-CC withering the bar too slowly to matter.

Rauderi.8706:

Some potential in the idea, but the bigger problem is how the Defiance Bar gets used at all. The critical problem is the bar’s “all or nothing” approach to crowd control skills. And in some cases, that bar is locked entirely (looking at you Crazed Whispers Agent…).

Defiance could be much more subtle, allowing some effects while depleting the bar anything they are negated, using internal cooldowns on some effects like Cripple or Chill to balance how frequently an enemy has them active. Then we’d actually have strategic control over champion-level enemies and there’d be some use outside of soft-CC withering the bar too slowly to matter.

You are talking about those enemies who show their bar only when casting a skill, making it riskier.

My original Idea was to have a separate bar for skill interruption, and another for stagger or defiance. If they indeed had to seperate bars for staggering and interrupting, then interrupting a skill should make the boss dizzy, as it currently does without the vulnerability.
I didn’t wright it because it would get to long and noone would read it.

Besides…
Even those enemies who show their defiance bar only when casting some skill can be staggered if interrupted, an since the damage will be fixed, they’ll be in for a world of hurt.
The few that never show a defiance bar can be twicked.

The main reason I choose a stomp as a mechanic was to promote it’s use. If the stomp looks as epic as it did in the early beta tests, or has some new animation using the equipped weapons, then more people will want to use it, thus we’ll see a boost in CC builds, beating those short defiance bars.

So … what is the justification for a defensive attribute providing offensive bonuses?

Kite.2510:

My original Idea was to have a separate bar for skill interruption, and another for stagger or defiance. If they indeed had to separate bars for staggering and interrupting, then interrupting a skill should make the boss dizzy, as it currently does without the vulnerability.

Interesting idea, but not quite what I was referring to.

As is, anything with a defiance bar (usually Champ+) gets free reign of chasing and hitting players, unimpeded attack speed, etc, because soft-CCs don’t work. Players have little tactical recourse, except to break the Defiance bar. And then, it’s just a few seconds of stun + bonus damage, unless there’s a special mechanic to avoid. Strategically, it’s terribly lackluster and the execution of the design was oversimplified.

Cripple and Immobilize help with ranged kiting, Chill and Slow help with timing dodges. Blind and Weakness could aid in tanking and mitigating damage, once every few seconds (the rest of the time, it would deplete the Defiance bar). But instead, we don’t get any of that, and it feels like the Defiance system is incomplete.

@Khisanth:

It would not be a long stretch to justify Toughness increasing CC capabilities as a measure of how mean you are (literally, how tough you appear to be!). Traditional RPGs already employ this, as it is sometimes easier to scare away enemies with higher constitution/CON (or conversely, to entice, but that’s a whole other topic); I’m not sure this is the original meaning of what a “Defiance Bar” is, but it would definitely be fitting if a “tough” being (which might not be the same as a “strong” one) could more easily break whatever “defiance” an enemy has, being tougher and all.

@Kite:

Granted, I also acknowledge it could come in with an expansion and with a lot of planning time for players. Also, keep in mind I do agree with most of it, and would love to see it happening, but I still don’t see it happening anytime soon. About the dodging stuff though, you’re right, perhaps it would make classes more evenly relevant instead of prioritizing any one in particular, but since it would be Anet and not us doing the balance, it might just transfer the waste to the other side, i.e, we start seeing CC specialized teams, built to stomp as fast as possible, and zerker gets done for (which is just as unhealthy, as we both seem to agree). Nevertheless, it’s a good idea, read this devs!

What zerker meta is this exactly?
Fractals: Condi is king currently.
Raiding: variation of gear and builds used.
PvP: condi and bunker is still a thing. Zerker is also vastly inferior to marauders.
WvW: Variation of gear and builds. Full tank gear and defensive traits are required for frontlining. Nomad/Minstrals is often used by commanders (because if they die, the zerg dies with them) and by dedicated zerg healers.

The only place zerker still rules supreme is in dungeons, which are pretty much dead, or in areas of the game that are so trivial, you can pretty much run whatever and be fine.

maxwelgm.4315:

@Khisanth:

It would not be a long stretch to justify Toughness increasing CC capabilities as a measure of how mean you are (literally, how tough you appear to be!). Traditional RPGs already employ this, as it is sometimes easier to scare away enemies with higher constitution/CON (or conversely, to entice, but that’s a whole other topic); I’m not sure this is the original meaning of what a “Defiance Bar” is, but it would definitely be fitting if a “tough” being (which might not be the same as a “strong” one) could more easily break whatever “defiance” an enemy has, being tougher and all.

You also seem to be thinking about it from the wrong side. Your explanation would make more sense if toughness is supposed to reduced the effect of CC on you.

Ferocity would be a better match for smashing things to the ground, flinging them around a room when attacking, hitting them so hard that they get stunned and dazed or just generally scaring people with the ferocity of your attacks.

I don’t get the point. In the end, it’s all about how viable the approach is.

- If staggering and stomping allowed players to beat content on a reasonable time while being much safer thanks to an overload of defensive tools, then it could easily become the norm for PUGs and just replace the previous meta.

- If the approach would still feel inferior, then this kind of builds would still get kicked.

- If a mix would produce the best results, then support classes (druid, warrior, chrono, rev) would be the ones adapting their builds and handling most the stagger damage. Necros might end using Trailblazers instead of Vipers.

Lahmia.2193:

What zerker meta is this exactly?
Fractals: Condi is king currently.
Raiding: variation of gear and builds used.
PvP: condi and bunker is still a thing. Zerker is also vastly inferior to marauders.
WvW: Variation of gear and builds. Full tank gear and defensive traits are required for frontlining. Nomad/Minstrals is often used by commanders (because if they die, the zerg dies with them) and by dedicated zerg healers.

The only place zerker still rules supreme is in dungeons, which are pretty much dead, or in areas of the game that are so trivial, you can pretty much run whatever and be fine.

• Fractals: Not anymore! Anet announced that they’ll change the scaling in Vitality instead of toughness, so they won’t get cheesed with conditions.
• Raiding: It’s once again mostly offensive. I’ve been kicked out of a raid for having to much toughness from wearing celestial. I was told I should have less toughness than the tank, and the tank has 2000 toughness so he can DPS. The raids are designed wrong! They are designed similar to other MMOs that have gear tred-mills and strict enrage timers are given so players with weak gear won’t be able to beat them fast enough. For better or worse GW2 is designed with stat combinations, so all the timers do is encourage DPS builds.
• PVP&WvW: I did mentioned that other builds are seeing some use in PVP. To bad that WvW is under construction, and SPVP doesn’t require you to build your gear!

Vargamonth.2047:

I don’t get the point. In the end, it’s all about how viable the approach is.

- If staggering and stomping allowed players to beat content on a reasonable time while being much safer thanks to an overload of defensive tools, then it could easily become the norm for PUGs and just replace the previous meta.

As I mentioned, it’ll still be a bit worse than DPS builds. For example, CC builds will have trouble dealing with more than one enemy at the time when soloing. Since most CC are single target, an those that hit more than one more aren’t strong enough, a defencive player will have to make use of his “tankiness” to since he’ll have to beat one enemy at a time. Also a CC build will rely to much on cooldowns, and he’ll have to invest a lot of points so he won’t waste them in a single enemy. DPS builds will be melting groups, and move to auto attack the next one.

- If the approach would still feel inferior, then this kind of builds would still get kicked.

As the CC of the DPS builds will be nerfed, the defensive builds will be master interrupters.

- If a mix would produce the best results, then support classes (druid, warrior, chrono, rev) would be the ones adapting their builds and handling most the stagger damage. Necros might end using Trailblazers instead of Vipers.

As I said. I expect it to happen expansions later where with more elite specializations the classes will be more balanced. Besides, there are already classes that are better at things than others.

Look… What I’m trying to do is give to non-dps builds some usefulness and some fixed damage. The current game discurages slow gameplay, so somehow even those must contribute in taking down enemies fast… There is just no other way!