Guild Wars 2

I am still not getting it. The gear treadmill has been cited as a major con of traditional WoW’esque MMORPGs. Now that it is gone it is suddenly demanded to be back as the gravitational factor to play a MMORPG.
No matter, I am not missing it a bit and I dearly hope that ANet does not fall back into rasterized template paradigms of this genre. If I want to play a game like that then well I just can because I got the choice that does not mean that I need to want every game to be the same because there is nothing mandatory like that. There’s people who want their gear grind, fine, play a game which provides that. There’s people who want their traditional holy trinity of predestined blaming for failures, fine, play a game which provides that. There’s people who want everything like in their last MMO just with a new skin: This does sound to me like people just want to have a experience a form of MMORPG adultery. Principiis obsta!

Moonpuncher

I really enjoy this conversation. But I don’t think I’ve called anyone a fool. Generally, I find the more name-calling you have to show, the less credibility your argument has. If you replace “fool” with good quality persuasion you might get somewhere. Dumdumpants.

Quoting this instead of something else because quote is, as usual, broken.

And yeah, lay off Moonpuncher. He’s being pretty reasonable and sparking a fair discussion.

There’s a problem with perpetual progression in MMOs, and the problem is that it is for all intents and purposes illusory. As you level up, so too do your opponents. Your level of power relative to the world you’re inhabiting is essentially static. In early stages, you might progress from killing rats to killing dragons, but eventually the game will blow its “fantasy hierarchy” wad and you’ll be back to killing rats again. Only HIGH LEVEL rats. With a mystic sword.

There comes a point in every MMO gamer’s career, when they’re swapping out the pants they spent 500 hours of raiding to acquire for a pair of green pants dropped off a random zone mob in the new expansion, that they begin to wonder what it was all for. The veil is temporarily lifted, and the reality that you’ve basically been running in place becomes apparent. Some people really enjoy the act of running, so they shrug and carry on. Others fly into a rage of disillusionment and crash the forums, talking about skinner boxes and operant conditioning and wondering how on earth they managed to stay so duped for so long.

I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with people who play just to see numbers go up incrementally over a period of many years, but I cannot claim that I find it particularly compelling myself at this point. What I desire from a game developer is their content. Their enemies, their dungeons, their story. If I log in to a new MMO to find that a significant portion of that content has been gated behind excruciating time sinks, I will look angrily in their direction, and my mouth will form a firm, hard line.

Ravenblade.7685:

I am still not getting it. The gear treadmill has been cited as a major con of traditional WoW’esque MMORPGs. Now that it is gone it is suddenly demanded to be back as the gravitational factor to play a MMORPG.

It may be because that’s what people are used to so for some it may take time to get used to a new way of doing things. It’s like people who quit smoking – they may dislike it and try very hard to quit, but that doesn’t mean they won’t have the urge to still smoke. ArenaNet has tried to make a new, different type of MMO and I think they have succeeded at that. Personally I’m enjoying it and have no desire for the old way of doing things, but then again I didn’t particularly love the old way of doing things so this is a game I’ve been waiting for. For others though, it may take time to adjust to learning how to enjoy this game. Change is not always easy for people.

Moonpuncher.7250:

OdinBudd.5298:

Please ANET, don’t listen to this fool. He is a typical “me, me, me, give me what I want now” child who has walked into McDonalds and is demanding a Whopper. Gee, maybe you should have done your research before dropping $60 on a game that has, and for quite some time, advertised itself as having no gear grind. Yet, here you are demanding one. Seriously, L2read and do some research before wasting your money in the future. Oh…and go back to WoW. :P

I really enjoy this conversation. But I don’t think I’ve called anyone a fool. Generally, I find the more name-calling you have to show, the less credibility your argument has. If you replace “fool” with good quality persuasion you might get somewhere. Dumdumpants.

I agree with this. Moonpuncher is in no way a fool and name calling doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Moonpuncher is stating his desires and presenting reasons as to why he enjoys the stat gear grind. If you’re not going to contribute the discussion you can leave. I’d rather have people say this game doesn’t have X feature that they enjoy int than have personal insults thrown all over the place.

That being said, I think my last post kind of sums up what the main point of this thread is. That the “carrot” in GW2 is different than the “carrot” in most MMOs and that, in my opinion, it should stay that way because frankly, I’m sick of carrots and I think I want to chase after that banana now.

I was going to quote Omega but it appears his post has been removed (couldn’t have anything to do with being inflammatory and insulting or anything could it?), but honestly Omega, I think you leaving is for the best for everyone. I hate to see people leave this game, but it’s obviously not your cup of tea and I really don’t care to be insulted or have any further discussions with someone who obviously just doesn’t enjoy this type of game.

@ Moon

Thank you, good sir. Sorry my first post came across as inflammatory. It was uncalled for and I was in the mood to pick a fight for some reason.

In any case, your post has some merit to it. I think ANet needs to find a balance between the current system they have now and the typical “WoW” gear treadmill. There is something that I can’t quite put my finger on that irks me every time I log in.

I definitely enjoy the game and think some of the innovations are fantastic, but there is a wow factor missing (no pun intended). I think the core issue is that leveling up has no “oomph” to it. You level and your character does a mini-celebration and glows with light for a moment, but there is no tangible progression.

By tangible, I mean to say that there aren’t “true” perks to leveling up and being able to equip new levels of gear since all content can be completed with abysmal gear, assuming the player is skilled. There are no gear checks that I could see or remember and I think that is a bit of an issue.

Sure, you don’t want to keep people from experiencing content, but then again, how do you truly reward those who have worked harder or put more time into deserving to see or attain the content. Skins are nice, and probably enough for some people, but in this new age of “reward me for playing” games, some (most) people want more than a little extra flavor.

I don’t really have a solution other than “go play another game,” but I really enjoy the style and overall feel of GW2. I just want to have that longing to play when I’m at work that I used to have back in high school with WoW. I log on when I get home and it is fun, but I don’t find myself counting the seconds until I can start playing again.

I think that, combined with the hype, is why so many people are disappointed with the current state of the game. There is a fix out there and I’m sure that it will be found eventually. It may not be ANet that finds it, but it might be. Hang in there.

My argument is now as follows:

You took away my stat grind, and left me what? People keep saying this is a different kind of MMO, but I’m starting to wonder if we were just TOLD it’s different, without delivering.

You say we’re giving up stat grinds for vanity grinds, but I’ve yet to see much in the way of “in between” gear. It’s still a basic level 80 exotic (max stats and terrible appearance) or a big bad legendary.

One member mentioned the dungeon stuff being pretty good. That’s a start. But I’ve been farming gold. What on earth am I supposed to do with it? Is there something cool-looking I’m able to buy? People like to brag that this game doesn’t “hand anything to the player”, but really that’s just a nice way of saying they didn’t build explanations for their own game.

This was fine when learning how to level, but I have a related gripe regarding off-hand weapon sigils not stacking or working(and with no explanation). Same thing with gear. I’m supposed to roam around trying to figure out what to do with myself at 80 and it’s not that fun. I’m told I can chase cosmetic upgrades to gear, but I haven’t seen much. I’ve seen “different” cosmetics, but not necessarily upgrades. WoW gave us a stat grind, but they also gave us the cosmetic grind. Gear got progressively cooler-looking, and there was always a decent piece of gear that was within reach with a week or two of effort. Here, I still think it’s legendary or bust. And right now, I’m busted.

Moonpuncher.7250:

My argument is now as follows:

You took away my stat grind, and left me what? People keep saying this is a different kind of MMO, but I’m starting to wonder if we were just TOLD it’s different, without delivering.

You say we’re giving up stat grinds for vanity grinds, but I’ve yet to see much in the way of “in between” gear. It’s still a basic level 80 exotic (max stats and terrible appearance) or a big bad legendary.

One member mentioned the dungeon stuff being pretty good. That’s a start. But I’ve been farming gold. What on earth am I supposed to do with it? Is there something cool-looking I’m able to buy? People like to brag that this game doesn’t “hand anything to the player”, but really that’s just a nice way of saying they didn’t build explanations for their own game.

This was fine when learning how to level, but I have a related gripe regarding off-hand weapon sigils not stacking or working(and with no explanation). Same thing with gear. I’m supposed to roam around trying to figure out what to do with myself at 80 and it’s not that fun. I’m told I can chase cosmetic upgrades to gear, but I haven’t seen much. I’ve seen “different” cosmetics, but not necessarily upgrades. WoW gave us a stat grind, but they also gave us the cosmetic grind. Gear got progressively cooler-looking, and there was always a decent piece of gear that was within reach with a week or two of effort. Here, I still think it’s legendary or bust. And right now, I’m busted.

Why are you farming gold. That is all.

Moonpuncher.7250:

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

Moonpuncher.7250:

darkwombat.3695:

I feel sorry for the OP. What he misses is the Skinner Box.

He wants to chase that pellet….forever…

Do you really think the reason you log in and play is any different? I hate to break it to you, but you’re just chasing a different pellet. That’s the problem with blaming things on some form of conditioning: Even your response to this thread granted you some form of satisfaction, and that’s why you did it.

Your argument applies to pretty much anything we do. Ever. Which means you somehow think we should want to play a game that doesn’t give us a reward. You’ve harbored contempt towards the “gear” reward, but have no problem with whatever other type of reward you’re getting here. I’m not sure why my pellet deserves your pity while your pellet remains anonymous

I log in to have fun. To find competition. There is no reward/punishment mechanism or insidious design behind that. Competition in it’s purest form has been around long before behaviour conditioning existed. To call that a “pellet” means you don’t fundamentally understand what behaviour conditioning is.

Game companies now hire psychologists and addiction behaviour specialists to influence game design to be kitten addictivekitten possible_. This is a very real thing that is happening right now. Every healthy, indepedent adult needs to come to terms with the fact that this hobby of ours is now in the business of turning us into proverbial junkies to keep us paying for our next fix. Asking for a gear grind to be implemented is just withdrawl happening.

This goes well beyond just video games, but there is a war on and your mind is the battlefield. Lucky for us, ANet isn’t in the business of creating addicts by providingkitten grind free of an experiencekitten possible.

Let’s also bring to light a tactic you’re using now. By using words like addiction, addicts, junkies, and fix, you’re trying to connect this game with all the horrible things we know about drug addiction.

Addiction usually implies that we’re powerless to discontinue use. This game, however, is just fun. If you enjoy spending time with your family, how would you feel if I suggested the feeling you got from holding your son or daughter was just like a junkie getting his first fix of the day? You can’t equate pleasure with addiction. The two HAVE a relationship, but they aren’t always connected.

We get rewards for everything we do. This is why we are all, in a way, rats chasing pellets. That doesn’t make the world any less beautiful or our hobbies any less passionate. I’m happy with the amount of time I spend gaming. It’s my favorite hobby and it doesn’t ruin my life. If I develop a heroin addiction I suspect the situation would be very different.

I’m sorry, but your views on addiction are incredibly naive. Please don’t take this as a slight against your person. Maybe you’re young, or don’t have much experience on the subect.

To state that pleasure and addiction can’t be equated flies in the face of what addiction is. It isn’t the physically addictive qualities of a “drug” that hook people, it’s the pleasure they experience while on the “drug”. Otherwise sex addiction wouldn’t exist in the first place.

http://www.testcountry.org/top-10-extreme-video-game-addiction-cases.htm

Read some of those cases and tell me that those people didn’t have a problem with addiction. Those aren’t even the most egregious cases I’ve seen. I remember one EverQuest player who left her baby in a car while she played. The baby was cooked like a roast in an oven.

If you look at the pattern of cases, you’ll see that most are MMO players. Why is this? Because MMO devs have been exploiting it’s players with a Skinner Box approach to design for years now. Once you realize that a lot of these games aren’t made to be fun (as games should be) but instead to be addicting, you can start recognizing and avoiding those “games” and boycotting those immoral companies. The sooner you come to terms with that, the better for your own mental health and personal well being.

I’m happy with the game as it is; and don’t want to see a gear treadmill added. However, I do think there are a lot of people who feel the same way as the OP. Just look at GW2’s stats on xfire: http://beta.xfire.com/games/gw2. It’s still a popular game, but it has been losing about 10k hours/week since the end of August.

I personally would like to see Anet provide some creative solutions for hardcore PvE people—and to do so in a way that doesn’t destroy the game for the rest of us. I think a good way to start might be to move away from making all PvE content either zergable or limited to a 5-man group. The Zhaitan fight, for instance, is something that could have required the coordination of multiple guilds; and the sustained effort of many level 80 players. Instead, it was 5-man puggable within a week of release; and left people wondering whether they were playing a co-op game or an MMO.

Animus mentions that something irks him/her when logging in, and that this game is lacking a power “feel” when you level. I posted a concern/complaint a while back that was, you guessed it, flamed endlessly. I was deeply annoyed at the strict down-scaling when I enter a new zone. It’s a tiny victory that riding your mount (fine, running) through an old zone makes you a God. It feels good to say “man, I remember when these wolves used to kick my butt and now I can kill them in one hit!”

Now, GW2 makes you surrender this feeling so you can group with your friends and experience content a second time. I don’t love the tradeoff but i DO understand their reasoning. The problem is twofold:

1) There’s almost no advantage because they ratchet your level down SO tightly, you might as well not have leveled at all! Sure you might have a different elite, and they CLAIM you get a gear advantage, but I propose they let us be the max level for that zone. If I’m level 80 helping out a level 43, they should crank me up to the max level for that zone so i feel a LITTLE more power for my hard work.
2) This is the biggie. As level 80, I’m having a hard time running through level 15 zones without getting the crap beat out of me by bears and other stupid crap. Why are these mobs aggroing me? What’s the point of calling me level 80 if I have to stop and fight every lvl 21 trash mob I encounter just to discover a new zone?

Now, please don’t beat me up too badly here. I got quite the tongue-lashing before by lowbies who wanted to feel every bit as powerful as a level 80. But the truth is that ANET diminishes the power I feel from leveling 80. Many people argued that i should not get any advantage, ever, from my experience playing. If that’s your stance, I don’t understand why they bother setting up levels in the first place. Why not automatch all content like an Elder Scrolls game?

I realize this is a bit of a transition, but it’s really playing to the point made that this game is lacking a power feel. I’m always just powerful enough for an encounter, which erases the feeling of getting good gear and enjoying the rewards of my hard work.

Shadowflare.2759:

Moonpuncher.7250:

My argument is now as follows:

You took away my stat grind, and left me what? People keep saying this is a different kind of MMO, but I’m starting to wonder if we were just TOLD it’s different, without delivering.

You say we’re giving up stat grinds for vanity grinds, but I’ve yet to see much in the way of “in between” gear. It’s still a basic level 80 exotic (max stats and terrible appearance) or a big bad legendary.

One member mentioned the dungeon stuff being pretty good. That’s a start. But I’ve been farming gold. What on earth am I supposed to do with it? Is there something cool-looking I’m able to buy? People like to brag that this game doesn’t “hand anything to the player”, but really that’s just a nice way of saying they didn’t build explanations for their own game.

This was fine when learning how to level, but I have a related gripe regarding off-hand weapon sigils not stacking or working(and with no explanation). Same thing with gear. I’m supposed to roam around trying to figure out what to do with myself at 80 and it’s not that fun. I’m told I can chase cosmetic upgrades to gear, but I haven’t seen much. I’ve seen “different” cosmetics, but not necessarily upgrades. WoW gave us a stat grind, but they also gave us the cosmetic grind. Gear got progressively cooler-looking, and there was always a decent piece of gear that was within reach with a week or two of effort. Here, I still think it’s legendary or bust. And right now, I’m busted.

Why are you farming gold. That is all.

Simple answer? Because gold buys things people want. In every game and every economic system across the civilized world. And Arenanet didn’t bother telling me gold is useless.

Oh, and also because I think I might blow it on a Commander’s Compendium. But mainly that first one.

Moonpuncher.7250:

You took away my stat grind, and left me what?.

Well, you were left with a game that by your own admission was great fun for the 150-200 hours it reasonably takes to exhaust the content. At that point, you either alt, or repeat the content if you REALLY enjoy it, or do the PvP if that’s your thing, or put the game down and go do something else while new content is prepared.

Take two games. MMO A, and MMO B.

Both MMO A and MMO B have ~ 200 hours worth of content. That content includes quests, dungeons, meaningful encounters without repetition, etc.

MMO A allows you to experience all of it without any noticeable timesinks. You do it all on one pass. 200 hours. Done.

MMO B puts length timesinks into the game. To do dungeon 2, you must first repeat dungeon one 10-15 times, and so on. You play for over one thousand hours.

Your argument is that by taking away those timesinks, they have robbed you of something essential. Putting aside for a moment the only reason those timesinks ever existed the way they did in the first place was to drag chute players and keep them paying a sub fee while new content was developed, can you come up with a cogent argument as to why a timesink of that magnitude is a crucial element?

SpectacularYak.6518:

Moonpuncher

I really enjoy this conversation. But I don’t think I’ve called anyone a fool. Generally, I find the more name-calling you have to show, the less credibility your argument has. If you replace “fool” with good quality persuasion you might get somewhere. Dumdumpants.

Quoting this instead of something else because quote is, as usual, broken.

And yeah, lay off Moonpuncher. He’s being pretty reasonable and sparking a fair discussion.

There’s a problem with perpetual progression in MMOs, and the problem is that it is for all intents and purposes illusory. As you level up, so too do your opponents. Your level of power relative to the world you’re inhabiting is essentially static. In early stages, you might progress from killing rats to killing dragons, but eventually the game will blow its “fantasy hierarchy” wad and you’ll be back to killing rats again. Only HIGH LEVEL rats. With a mystic sword.

There comes a point in every MMO gamer’s career, when they’re swapping out the pants they spent 500 hours of raiding to acquire for a pair of green pants dropped off a random zone mob in the new expansion, that they begin to wonder what it was all for. The veil is temporarily lifted, and the reality that you’ve basically been running in place becomes apparent. Some people really enjoy the act of running, so they shrug and carry on. Others fly into a rage of disillusionment and crash the forums, talking about skinner boxes and operant conditioning and wondering how on earth they managed to stay so duped for so long.

I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with people who play just to see numbers go up incrementally over a period of many years, but I cannot claim that I find it particularly compelling myself at this point. What I desire from a game developer is their content. Their enemies, their dungeons, their story. If I log in to a new MMO to find that a significant portion of that content has been gated behind excruciating time sinks, I will look angrily in their direction, and my mouth will form a firm, hard line.

Couldn’t have put it better myself. I just scrapped a longer post after not being able to say it right and found this.

Moonpuncher.7250:

One member mentioned the dungeon stuff being pretty good. That’s a start. But I’ve been farming gold. What on earth am I supposed to do with it? Is there something cool-looking I’m able to buy? People like to brag that this game doesn’t “hand anything to the player”, but really that’s just a nice way of saying they didn’t build explanations for their own game.

This game actually doesn’t emphasize buying things with gold as much as other games do. I also would disagree with the idea that there are not a lot of sets you can grind for. Those two things are actually intertwined, since you can grind if you want, you just aren’t going to grind for gold in this game. So what other currencies other than gold are important in this game:

-Dungeon tokens – each dungeon has a separate set with different tokens. You can view these at the vendors in Lion’s Arch (that’s 8 exotic sets right there, plus the yellow set which is the same for all of them, so 9 looks total).
-Crafted gear – there is level 80 exotic crafted sets but there are several other Tier’s as well. If you like the look of any other sets, you can go for those as well. (so that’s 6 looks from Tier’s 1-6 and at least 2 “Other” sets you can obtain with recipes earned elsewhere)
-Karma gear
-Cultural armor/weapons – the Cultural armor for each race has 3 Cloth sets and these actually do cost gold. I believe the 3 weapon sets cost Karma
-WvWvW – you can earn a set of gear in WvWvW by using Badges of Honor

These are all sets you can grind for in between what you have now and whatever Legendary you are working towards. They all have different looks. The exotics will have different stats but all are equivalent in level. So if you have a set of gear with the stats you want already, you can farm those for the look.

I also have another suggestion (actually a few) – in other games we often had sets for different purposes – maybe a tanking set, a PvE grinding set, a PvP oriented set, a DPS dungeon set, etc. There’s no reason you can’t do that here. Maybe grind one set centered around toughness/vitality and another around power/precision?

You can also have a more than one of the same set stat wise but use different fashion skins on them. Or use different runes/sigils on them.

You can also spend money to redo your traits. I’m not sure that that is going to cost a whole lot, but certain gear and trait setups are going to be more beneficial for certain activities. So if you really wanted to min/max and grind stuff, you can do that and switch around a lot. You can also pick up cooking and make stat boosting food for each type of activity you do. That is going to be a constant grind. You can also make dyes with cooking and they require a lot of mats – you can work towards getting the rarest dyes that other people don’t have.

Just a few thoughts. Just because everyone is on a level playing field, that doesn’t mean you don’t have gear you can grind for. But gold is definitely not the main way of getting things in this game.

SpectacularYak.6518:

Moonpuncher.7250:

You took away my stat grind, and left me what?.

Well, you were left with a game that by your own admission was great fun for the 150-200 hours it reasonably takes to exhaust the content. At that point, you either alt, or repeat the content if you REALLY enjoy it, or do the PvP if that’s your thing, or put the game down and go do something else while new content is prepared.

Take two games. MMO A, and MMO B.

Both MMO A and MMO B have ~ 200 hours worth of content. That content includes quests, dungeons, meaningful encounters without repetition, etc.

MMO A allows you to experience all of it without any noticeable timesinks. You do it all on one pass. 200 hours. Done.

MMO B puts length timesinks into the game. To do dungeon 2, you must first repeat dungeon one 10-15 times, and so on. You play for over one thousand hours.

Your argument is that by taking away those timesinks, they have robbed you of something essential. Putting aside for a moment the only reason those timesinks ever existed the way they did in the first place was to drag chute players and keep them paying a sub fee while new content was developed, can you come up with a cogent argument as to why a timesink of that magnitude is a crucial element?

Exclusivity. And I realize MANY People may differ here. But I rather like seeing someone with a set of armor and saying to myself “Oh man, that dude farmed the crap out of some dungeons!” or “That guy is really high up in PvP”. So the time sink isnt what I love about it, but I love that the way people look and the power they have is often a result of how hard they’ve worked. And this game, to an extent, agrees with me. Like I said, we can keep pretending that ArenaNet wants everyone to have the same capability all the time, but they still want you to go through 80 levels and at least farm up a good 100 hours of gold/karma/tokens/whatever to buy the gear. They just shortened the “time sink”.

Well, now I’m at the end of it. Granted I have not experienced every piece of content here, but I have experienced most of the content in which I’m particularly interested. I want to WvW and sPVP, but those things won’t keep me logged in hours a day.

So I’m having a little trouble figuring out what to do next if I like great gear. I almost feel a little bait-and-switched by some of you guys. I feel like you lured me in with an MMO then got mad at me for wanting great loot! let’s not forget most of us want the same thing; we’re just not willing to put up with some of the drawbacks of gear stat grinding. But for every person condemning me for liking powerful gear, there’s 10 more logging in and running the same boring dungeon (trust me they’re bored of it by now) to afford their armor set.

Give me more neat thing i can work towards please!

Moonpuncher.7250:

Exclusivity. And I realize MANY People may differ here. But I rather like seeing someone with a set of armor and saying to myself “Oh man, that dude farmed the crap out of some dungeons!” or “That guy is really high up in PvP”. So the time sink isnt what I love about it, but I love that the way people look and the power they have is often a result of how hard they’ve worked.

You do realize that you literally just said you like seeing people with awesome looking gear and knowing how long it took them to get, which is exactly what GW2’s gear grind is right?

You like seeing people in awesome gear and knowing that they worked hard for it. That’s exactly what you have. If you see someone in a full dungeon set you know they busted their kitten running dungeons to get it. I understand that you like the stats as well, but this statement just shows that you like seeing people in armor that they worked hard for. In GW2 people have to work hard to get armor that they want to show off. So…that’s what your looking for…?

Moonpuncher.7250:

…the power they have is often a result of how hard they’ve worked.

Twitch #1. This is a video game. At no point do I ever want to see anyone sane or rational equating their recreational video game time to “hard work”. If it is “hard work” then something is very, very wrong with the game, or the way you are playing it.

Twitch #2. Unfortunately, effort or skill often mean next to nothing when it comes to acquiring loot. Many games, even my much beloved EQ, had relatively low skill caps. It was all a question of a massive investment in TIME. Time spent repeating content, time spent waiting, time spent killing time, in order to make your +2 sword a +5 sword, so you could kill rats +5 instead of rats +2. It is a flawed model.

Moonpuncher.7250:

And this game, to an extent, agrees with me. Like I said, we can keep pretending that ArenaNet wants everyone to have the same capability all the time, but they still want you to go through 80 levels and at least farm up a good 100 hours of gold/karma/tokens/whatever to buy the gear. They just shortened the “time sink”.

There’s nothing wrong with the concept of vertical progression, the problem is vertical progression that never truly ends, or vertical progression that requires an investment of thousands of hours to complete. This is meant to be a hobby, not a lifestyle replacement.

Moonpuncher.7250:

I want to WvW and sPVP, but those things won’t keep me logged in hours a day.

Why does the game have to keep you logged in for hours a day, ostensibly forever!? Do you think there is a game in existence that can do that without having you indulge in absolutely spectacular amounts of repetition? I can tell you right now there isn’t. If you have stopped having fun, stop playing. If I get tired of a book, I put down the book. If I get tired of a show, I turn off the telly. If I get tired of anything, I move on to something else. But when it comes to MMOs, we are meant to understand that we should NEVER get tired? We should play for 500, 1000, 10000, 15000 hours, cheerfully killing goblins, completely transfixed because our hitpoints keep creeping up, and now I’m critting slightly more? This argument is COMPLETELY MAD.

Moonpuncher.7250:

But for every person condemning me for liking powerful gear, there’s 10 more logging in and running the same boring dungeon (trust me they’re bored of it by now) to afford their armor set.

You’re a smarter guy than this. #1, appeal to popularity. #2, you have not in any meaningful way even established popularity, you’ve just speculated a randomkittenpull statistic based on your confirmation bias. None of it is a foundation for an argument.

Moonpuncher.7250:

Give me more neat thing i can work towards please!

Take. A. Break. Go play X-Com.

Leiloni,

This is where we will see that your opinion differs from mine. To me, most of our creative flair happens in character creation. Have fun picking which color hair you like most, and how tall you want your person to be. But gear, in my opinion, should have quality gradients. I firmly believe that MMO games should have gear that is flat-out better than other gear. So while you’re giving me tons of neat options for customizing the look of my guy, it’s hard to say “oh, the T3 crafted is hands down better-looking than the blahblah dungeon”. And I am learning that many of you like that you can dress your character up however you like. But for me, running around with the blue glowing sword means you did something better than the guy who still has the yellow glowing sword. And if you really kick butt and hunker down for some dungeon runs, you might get the black skull axe with the little skulls circling around it.

Yes, you see my WoW influences here. I know they can’t be the same game (and I’m still choosing this over WoW). But I like that some gear is better than others. Objectively better. Especially since people are telling me that my ‘achievement’ in this game comes from making my gear look better. Re-skinning exotic dungeon gear to look like level 30 crafted stuff seems absurd to me (I know you aren’t saying to do this, but you get my point right?) I want the harder-to-get gear to be BETTER (visually, stat-wise, I don’t care). Instead, right now it’s just “well go after dungeon gear, or karma gear, or crafted gear. They all look different and its justa matter of preference.” No sir, I want something EVERYONE can agree is better. Big sparkittenhings and awesome glowing robes and thunder that crackles beneath my feet!

Ok, I’m going overboard. This is a preference I"m probably going to have to learn to live without. I’m just having some self-realization here. If they take away the ‘treadmill’ for better stats, and aren’t even giving me much in the way of visual appearances, I’m having trouble realizing what’s left.

You want gear that everyone agrees looks better but that is impossible, as looks are always an opinion. Even in WoW, just because gear is the best set you can earn stat wise, I never thought it was the best visually. I also happen to think WoW’s graphic style is pretty ugly. Then again, that is just my opinion.

As for gear that everyone agrees is better in other ways, that would as you said, be the legendary gear. Other than that, GW2 is intended for everything to be relatively equal. Although I do think personally some gear skins are better looking than others. And many certainly do require a lot of effort, so when I see someone with those sets on, I know they busted their butt trying to get it.

It’s a different game so like you said, you’ll just have to learn to live without the stat treadmill. But I personally am of the opinion that you can find things you enjoy grinding for in this game. As for the visual appearances being different – I have to disagree, the sets look vastly different. If you’re an Asura though, that may be your problem. Having such a small character model makes gear hard to see – you may have better results with a larger toon. :\

Yakface,

I’m bad at handling quotes s I’m going to respond to these inline.

There’s nothing wrong with the concept of vertical progression, the problem is vertical progression that never truly ends, or vertical progression that requires an investment of thousands of hours to complete. This is meant to be a hobby, not a lifestyle replacement.
> I agree. I want the progression and I think most people’s problem comes into play when it’s endless. I just want better stuff to work towards. Dungeon gear is “different” but not “better” than crafted gear. That’s kind of my problem with it. Gold seems useless, because the only thing to chase in this game is appearance, and with the exception of legendary items, the rest of the gear is rather plain and just a matter of opinion. There’s no way people would prefer level 20 tailored gearin WoW compared to Tier 1 gear. I like that “objectively better” quality that some gear has. I want that here, and I want something in between 80-crafted-exotic and legendary.

Why does the game have to keep you logged in for hours a day, ostensibly forever!?
> I get that this sounds crazy if you’ve never played an MMO before. But if you’ve played any MMO at length, some part of you understands this. I don’t play many single player games. I feel like they take too long to learn, too long to figure out if I’m going to like them or not. MMOs are comfortable for me because its a world I can “live” in for a few hours a day. I like to have the one game I enjoy playing all the time. Yes, that sounds crazy to some people, but not to people who spent the time in WoW, or EQ/AC/etc. A robust and persistent world where there’s ALWAYS something to do appeals to me greatly. For years, it was the best $15/month I could buy!

Moonpuncher.7250:

But for every person condemning me for liking powerful gear, there’s 10 more logging in and running the same boring dungeon (trust me they’re bored of it by now) to afford their armor set.

You’re a smarter guy than this. #1, appeal to popularity. #2, you have not in any meaningful way even established popularity, you’ve just speculated a randomkittenpull statistic based on your confirmation bias. None of it is a foundation for an argument.
> It wouldn’t hold up in court. These are logical fallacies and it’s not meant to prove my point. The thing with common logical fallacies is that they show the argument cannot rest on those principles alone. But these things can still be persuasive. Also, the point of that statement wasn’t necessarily to compel you with fabricated statistics. Rather, it was simply to show that I’m being flamed for liking Grind Type A, when people are actively engaging in Grind Type B. I doubt anyone bought a full set of Dungeon X armor and thought “Oh, I was just having fun running that dungeon 30 times. The gear was just a side bonus!”

I just want to throw my hat into the ring and state that I despise most “end game” armor styles and weapon styles in many of the more popular MMOs such as WoW, Rift, etc.

Gigantic glowing balls on shoulders that are so large if I shake my head no I may kill myself on spikes? How about shoulders that are set at angles that would actually deflect swords INTO my neck?! Swords that are 11 feet long and wider than the average shield?

I love my fantasy, like cool particle affects and love to see some crazy exotic material over-gothic plate. But kitten I have some limits before I shake my head in disgust.

I openly admit, I have already burned 10 Transmutes to make awesome stat armor look like the model on low level gear because it simply looks more to my liking!

Moonpuncher.7250:

I want the progression and I think most people’s problem comes into play when it’s endless. I just want better stuff to work towards. Dungeon gear is “different” but not “better” than crafted gear. That’s kind of my problem with it. Gold seems useless, because the only thing to chase in this game is appearance, and with the exception of legendary items, the rest of the gear is rather plain and just a matter of opinion.

Ok I went down the hall to get more coffee and I think I may have an idea for you. You say you want something that is definitively better but GW2 won’t give you better stats and the current legendaries take too long.

What if GW2 had different “Tier’s” of Legendary gear? So some would be easier to get than the current set of Legendary items, but all would require more effort than the current Exotic stuff and they would all have some extra cool effect on them, like the current Legendaries, that makes them cooler. And by being a step up in the gear color system, they are already better. And if there are several Tier’s, you can slowly work towards all of them, making continual progress along the way. So you can have that gear set to grind for that is definitively better than the rest, but it’s still the same stat wise and fits into GW2’s current model without making anyone else upset. I suggest you ask ANet for that instead.

I think what Anet is doing with the game is a good thing. For too long, us mmo players have been accustomed to the ideology that gear = skill, and thus subsequently, to be better, you have to grind for your gear, hence the gear grind. Subsequently, because of the gear grind (or whatever extensive grind for that matter) we think time = gear, and since gear = skill, we think the more time we spend online, the more skillful we become. However that is not the case here in GW2, where skill is in its real form of playing smarter. While you do get alot of skills by investing time in the game, the correlation doesn’t always or necessarily equate. With GW2, Anet really wants to push forward an emphasis on skills part and not merely on the gear, that’s why they made the end-game gear equal (sorta) in terms of stats.

This, imo, is exactly what Anet meant by trying to revolutionize the mmorpg market. They’re trying to change the player’s mindset about how they perceive gear and progression and skill, and ultimately, skill would be the dominant factor in progressing (or in this case, pwning in spvp/wvw) in the game. It sorta reminds me of DCUO, where two players having the exact same gear would produce diff outcomes if one is more skilled with his skills than the other. (My brother recounts of how he was able to defeat a player much higher level or better geared than him, simply coz he knew how/when to block, when to attack, how to use his block breaker and skills, etc)

The game is trying to make us think, and by posing seemingly insurmountable challenges (like the dungeons and explo modes particularly), the game is training us to think skillfully instead of mindlessly clicking on pixels on the screen.

Sure there will still be a grind in this game, but the grind is shortened to accomodate for casual-er players. They tried to accomodate hardcore players with dungeons but apparently, it’s not hardcore enough for them. I really hate to say that this game is not for you, but if you see me kittening in WoW forums about how hard and difficult and boring and tiresome it is to raid, then you’d probably throw me the same response that either I’m a noob or lazy kitten or the game isn’t meant for me.

And there’s really nothing wrong with it. ALOT of people like Skyrim, but even just playing a few minutes of Elder scrolls, I knew it wasn’t the game for me. I don’t particularly enjoy sandbox games, I prefer games that somehow give you a sense of freedom while at the same time guiding you to a predetermined path.

And by this, Anet is catering to a different group of gamers, gamers who consciously do not want to grind in the same way the OP wants to, and who are open to a new experience in gaming.

So I don’t really want to tell you to go off and play your grinding game, I would rather you try to give gw2 a chance in changing your view on gaming, and on mmorpgs in that matter. Try enjoying the vistas, the scenery, the story (even if I personally don’t like it, end-game story anyway. starter story is very very nice tho), and other things the game has to offer that isn’t a gear grind.

Last suggestion, for people who don’t know what’s left, try discovering new builds, attack rotations, complimenting skills, or whatnot. Who knows, you may revolutionize a new trend with a particular class (like OMG class X totally benefits more from stat Y if you trait it Z way and play it in V way, and it’s so much more fun that the usual power/prec critters we see around).

That was mentioned earlier, and it’s almost exactly what I want. Ideally, I wish you could get a LITTLE more powerful with better gear past exotic. Or, have different levels of exotic gear. It feels weird that I can run out and spend 10g to outfit myself in the best gear in the game.

I digress. One of my main complaints here is that the only hands-down “better” gear in the game takes months on end to farm. So while you and I quibble over which set might look better than the other, very few people would venture that legendary items look just as good as the level 80 stick I currently swing around.

So yes, this would make me MUCH happier. And through many of my posts here you can see that I’m bothered by the tremendous “gap” between exotic and legendary, both from a time AND quality standpoint. We can get some amazing particle-infused weapon after a year of farming, or we can swing around a variety of level 80 exotic swords that look like something I looted from a Risen corpse.

Something in between, please!

Moonpuncher.7250:

That was mentioned earlier, and it’s almost exactly what I want. Ideally, I wish you could get a LITTLE more powerful with better gear past exotic. Or, have different levels of exotic gear. It feels weird that I can run out and spend 10g to outfit myself in the best gear in the game.

I digress. One of my main complaints here is that the only hands-down “better” gear in the game takes months on end to farm. So while you and I quibble over which set might look better than the other, very few people would venture that legendary items look just as good as the level 80 stick I currently swing around.

So yes, this would make me MUCH happier. And through many of my posts here you can see that I’m bothered by the tremendous “gap” between exotic and legendary, both from a time AND quality standpoint. We can get some amazing particle-infused weapon after a year of farming, or we can swing around a variety of level 80 exotic swords that look like something I looted from a Risen corpse.

Something in between, please!

I’ll agree with everything here except having them be even marginally better stat wise. I really really like that everyone has the same stats at 80 as it levels the playing field and encourages players to learn their profession more and become more skilled. But have tiers on the difficulty of obtaining gear wouldn’t be a bad thing in my opinion.

You could have your tiers something like this:
[leveling]
Junk
Basic
Fine
Masterwork
Rare

[max stats]
Exotic

[“shiny”]
Elite
Prestige
Legendary

The elite and prestige sets would be slightly easier to obtain than the legondary sets, but would still look better than exotic and would be harder to get than exotic.

Maybe have the elite gear involve long event chains that involve exploration all over Tyria to complete (think black moa chick from GW1). And the Prestige set can be something that takes a lot of karma or involves running multiple exp mode dungeons down certain paths through those dungeons to obtain or something. Legendary would obviously stay the same.

Moonpuncher.7250:

Yakface

Yakface? Sir, I protest!

Moonpuncher.7250:

I just want better stuff to work towards. Dungeon gear is “different” but not “better” than crafted gear. That’s kind of my problem with it.

As soon as you get that, though, you’ve broken something fundamental to GW2’s design. If I want to PvP or PvE I can do it on a level playing field that was relatively easy to attain. Not instantaneous…but not an overwhelming task. Very importantly, if I’m buying this game new 3 months from now, the length of that journey is the same. It’s not now 5 times longer, because I’m late to the party. The more you tier your progression, the higher your barrier to entry is. Vertical progression should NEVER outlast your content, or require heavy repetition of content to finalize.

Moonpuncher.7250:

I get that this sounds crazy if you’ve never played an MMO before. But if you’ve played any MMO at length, some part of you understands this. I don’t play many single player games. I feel like they take too long to learn, too long to figure out if I’m going to like them or not. MMOs are comfortable for me because its a world I can “live” in for a few hours a day. I like to have the one game I enjoy playing all the time. Yes, that sounds crazy to some people, but not to people who spent the time in WoW, or EQ/AC/etc. A robust and persistent world where there’s ALWAYS something to do appeals to me greatly. For years, it was the best $15/month I could buy!

I’ve played almost every MMO since UO, and it sounds crazy. I understand what you’re saying, and I might’ve said the same thing myself at one time, but it wouldn’t have made what I was saying any less insane. What did you enjoy about those games? Because if you boil it down to “progression”…and we’ve discussed how the progression in those games was functionally illusory…then you’re saying that everything else is secondary. Killing monsters, exploring worlds, all of it completely secondary to “I went from 10 HP to 15 HP”, so now I can fight the 15 HP monsters instead of the 10 HP monsters". Hur-friggin-rah.

Moonpuncher.7250:

It wouldn’t hold up in court. These are logical fallacies and it’s not meant to prove my point. The thing with common logical fallacies is that they show the argument cannot rest on those principles alone. But these things can still be persuasive.

It doesn’t hold up on an internet forum, either. They’re not persuasive BECAUSE they’re transparently fallacious. Just because this is not a formal debate does not mean we should abandon logic or rationality at the door and just start making stuff up as suits our whims.

Moonpuncher.7250:

Rather, it was simply to show that I’m being flamed for liking Grind Type A, when people are actively engaging in Grind Type B. I doubt anyone bought a full set of Dungeon X armor and thought “Oh, I was just having fun running that dungeon 30 times. The gear was just a side bonus!”

Do understand that I do not endorse flaming you, and that I am not one of the people suggesting a grind of any flavor is a delightful undertaking. I don’t grind for the cosmetic armor because 1. I actually like the look of my easily acquired non-grind armor, and 2. OMG why would anyone ever do that? But then, I like a “low-fantasy” look.

Moonpuncher.7250:

We can get some amazing particle-infused weapon after a year of farming, or we can swing around a variety of level 80 exotic swords that look like something I looted from a Risen corpse.

Something in between, please!

There are some pretty neat skins you can get from Mystic Forge recipes. My GF’s greatsword came out of there, and it’s got lightning coursing up the middle of two long blades. It looks as “epic” as 99% of the epic gear in other MMOs.

Remember when MMORPG’s were about the adventure, forging new friendships, inadvertently making new enemies and escaping into a virtual world that doesn’t have all the trappings of real world consumerism?

I miss the days when I could simply go to the blacksmith in Britain and purchase several sets of the “best” gear from another player and never once had to worry about gear (except if/when I ran out of money). It’s a shame that most MMO players these days just don’t know any better because the MMO’s they grew up on conditioned them into gear grinding zombies.

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

Remember when MMORPG’s were about the adventure, forging new friendships, inadvertently making new enemies and escaping into a virtual world that doesn’t have all the trappings of real world consumerism?

I miss the days when I could simply go to the blacksmith in Britain and purchase several sets of the “best” gear from another player and never once had to worry about gear (except if/when I ran out of money). It’s a shame that most MMO players these days just don’t know any better because the MMO’s they grew up on conditioned them into gear grinding zombies.

Yes and no.

I remember buying the best gear from a vendor in UO and never having anything remotely resembling a gear grind.

I also remember going to the bank and seeing 25 guys named Raistlin and 3 guys named Satan, and having all but a handful of those guys try to kill and teabag me the second I left town.

MMO’s have always been deeply flawed constructions. If they’re not fundamentally broken in one respect, they’re broken in another.

I want to thank everyone for participation in this thread. You have temporarily inspired me to pursue a set of armor (since it sounds like that’s a universally agreed-upon fun-thing-to-do in Guild Wars).

I’m looking at dungeon sets now, but the pics are pretty low res. Does anyone have a good link to see what dungeon, crafted, cultural, and other armor looks like? Also, is there any gear set that’s not dungeon, crafted, or cultural? (Not talking PvP, i want it to be something I can show off in the world).

Thanks again for all the help. We’ll see if this keeps my interests!

SpectacularYak.6518:

Ragnar Dragonfyre.1806:

Remember when MMORPG’s were about the adventure, forging new friendships, inadvertently making new enemies and escaping into a virtual world that doesn’t have all the trappings of real world consumerism?

I miss the days when I could simply go to the blacksmith in Britain and purchase several sets of the “best” gear from another player and never once had to worry about gear (except if/when I ran out of money). It’s a shame that most MMO players these days just don’t know any better because the MMO’s they grew up on conditioned them into gear grinding zombies.

Yes and no.

I remember buying the best gear from a vendor in UO and never having anything remotely resembling a gear grind.

I also remember going to the bank and seeing 25 guys named Raistlin and 3 guys named Satan, and having all but a handful of those guys try to kill and teabag me the second I left town.

MMO’s have always been deeply flawed constructions. If they’re not fundamentally broken in one respect, they’re broken in another.

So true.

Moonpuncher.7250:

I want to thank everyone for participation in this thread. You have temporarily inspired me to pursue a set of armor (since it sounds like that’s a universally agreed-upon fun-thing-to-do in Guild Wars).

I’m looking at dungeon sets now, but the pics are pretty low res. Does anyone have a good link to see what dungeon, crafted, cultural, and other armor looks like? Also, is there any gear set that’s not dungeon, crafted, or cultural? (Not talking PvP, i want it to be something I can show off in the world).

Thanks again for all the help. We’ll see if this keeps my interests!

Try this.

http://www.guildwars2junkies.com/2012/08/22/pvp-armor-preview-locker-room-screenshots/

I, personally, do not want this ’loot>skill’ sort of game. I’m sorry, but I’ve played enough of these games. While it’s fun to stomp on your opponent when you’ve put more time into the game, it gets old really fast.

It’s not much fun when everyone you beat down, only lost because of huge gear differences. It’s one reason I left WoW.

While WvW does hold a little bit of gear edging, it’s in no way game breaking. I’ve jumped people that were obviously better geared than I was, and still won with a little bit of thinking. Most other games.. this isn’t even an option. You go up against someone in the highest tier gear, you’re going to get facerolled into oblivion.

GW2’s gear ’treadmill’ is fine as it is, in my opinion. It’s the kind of game I like. It’s the style of gameplay that suits me, and ever since last year when I researched all that i could, I knew this would be my style of MMO.

I’m sorry OP, as cliche as it is- If you’re looking for ’better stats’ then yes, by all means you have other options for games. Games that would suit your playstyle and needs. I would rather not see my enjoyment hampered because of a never ending stat treadmill.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you should leave. Just look at the game in a different sort of light, rather than what you’re used to.

So how much “fun” do you expect to have with your character who fundamentally stays the same for the entire time you play the game?

I played DAoC for six years. In the first three years, every item at level cap was the same. They only difference was what weapon you used, and what proc you wanted. I logged in every day and PvPed my heart out, joked with random people, and enjoyed a truly social game of Us vs Them.

It wasn’t until DAoC introduced the third expansion that ‘gear grinding for an advantage’ model as we know it was introduced. Unsurprisingly, this also coincided with a large playerbase loss.

Blizzard though…they mastered micro-rewards. The carefully measured psychological engineering behind their game is amazing. I fell into the addiction without even realizing it while being fully aware of the process due to actively working on a research study over it.

First of all i agree with OP and im in the same mindset. But reality is, it probably wont change to that type of system where gear gets better “stats”.

I propose this:

Give harder to obtain gear give you “other” boosts that you could not get anywhere else.

For example:

What if there was gear higher then exotics but included legendaries that started including bonuses such as:

“Reduce Waypoint costs by 25%”
“Allow you to spy on characters info sheet – stats, gear, etc…
“Reducing falling damage by 50%”
“Allow to pickup items from broker anywhere”

Anyways those buffs might be retarted but the point is to have additional bonuses to harder obtained gear, then just pure cosmetic, but type of bonuses that dont really affect your combat.

I wonder how many of the people who are berating the OP are level 80 with full exotics and tons of gold in the bank. If you don’t have those, you still have a carrot to chase don’t you? I’m currently in the exact same position as the OP, and I don’t see anyone with a satisfactory answer to the question being raised.

First off, I never played WoW but I’ve played other MMOs, and I think we can agree that one of the main reasons people play is character progression, usually some goal to achieve. If this weren’t important why have better gear at all, or even levels and xp? Now I have nothing per say against a game like GW2 trying something different and putting a fairly easy to achieve cap on gear progression, but in so doing they removed a large portion of what would be considered “end-game.” But more importantly perhaps is why I even bothered to get exotic gear in the first place, there’s very little to do with the best gear. WvW maybe? The problem is that Anet removed the gear grind at level cap but didn’t add anything else to fill the void once you GET that “gear-everyone-has.” Also, I personally could care less about getting gear that simply “looks cooler”, to me that’s completely pointless. This is why it’s very easy, when your in the situation the OP and I are in, to get this feeling of “what’s the point?”

One other thing I will mention is that legendary items are a complete letdown. What’s the point of calling them legendary when they have worse stats than exotics (the three stats on the legendary I could get are a worse combination than what I have). The least they could have done for the massive amount of time you take to get one is make them fully customizable so you can pick the stats.

Mastoras.9680:

First of all i agree with OP and im in the same mindset. But reality is, it probably wont change to that type of system where gear gets better “stats”.

I propose this:

Give harder to obtain gear give you “other” boosts that you could not get anywhere else.

For example:

What if there was gear higher then exotics but included legendaries that started including bonuses such as:

“Reduce Waypoint costs by 25%”
“Allow you to spy on characters info sheet – stats, gear, etc…
“Reducing falling damage by 50%”
“Allow to pickup items from broker anywhere”

Anyways those buffs might be retarted but the point is to have additional bonuses to harder obtained gear, then just pure cosmetic, but type of bonuses that dont really affect your combat.

Nicholas Sandford’s Robes

Transmute only: Retains stats of gear that skin is applied to, but adds a 25% discount to Waypoint costs.
Soulbound on Pickup

Obtained by visiting every waypoint in game once and reaching 100% map completion.

hmmm…..

Moonpuncher.7250:

Also, is there any gear set that’s not dungeon, crafted, or cultural? (Not talking PvP, i want it to be something I can show off in the world).

There is Karma gear and WvW gear as well. WvW gear you can wear anywhere in the world. And Mystic Forge stuff but I don’t know a lot about that thing.

Edit: Oh and there’s the Order armors but I’m not sure how much of a grind that really is, but it is a different look.

Yay, another gear grinder post. Why do I enjoy reading the lamentations of the wow-washed so much?

Roargathor.2743:

Yay, another gear grinder post. Why do I enjoy reading the lamentations of the wow-washed so much?

You obviously didn’t read much of it…

Oh I read quit a bit of it. What it boils down to is that there are a ton of ex-wow players who can’t wrap their minds around the concept of “playing for fun”, not liner character progression through gear stat increases. This is the game I have waited for. I have wanted a game like this since UO. I never liked the idea of gear grinding. I wanted to roam the world, adventure and explore, and most importantly, engage in massive battles without needing to spend countless hours grinding or repeating boring content just so I could compete in PvP. Never again will I play a gear grind (for power) game. I love the vanity increases, but to be honest I just transmuted all my level 80 exotics with the skins of level 30 crafted armor. I am happy with the looks of my Character and I absolutely LOVE that my stats are on equal footing with every other 80 on the battle field. Now I can actually enjoy the game, and look good while I crush the enemy. This game is brilliant.

Roargathor.2743:

Oh I read quit a bit of it. What it boils down to is that there are a ton of ex-wow players who can’t wrap their minds around the concept of “playing for fun”, not liner character progression through gear stat increases.

Well clearly you didn’t read much of it. There’s really only one player arguing for the WoW style and that is the OP. There are far more of us arguing for the GW2 method. And at the end of the post, we convinced the OP to grind for a set of gear in GW2 and see if he finds the type of fun he’s looking for in a different way in this game.

I also read that and it’s good that some of you managed to “convince” the op to open his mind to the new system, but this isn’t the only thread on the topic. If you look you can find a bunch. A the end of the day, there are lots of players who crave power through gear. They want their time played to “mean something”. They want their " hard work" to be rewarded……. In the real world I totally agree with work = reward. I am a Libertarian. However this is a game. Games should be about having fun first, not grind first to have fun. We all payed 60 bucks. I will never play another game where gear > player skill again.

Moonpuncher.7250:

I want to thank everyone for participation in this thread. You have temporarily inspired me to pursue a set of armor (since it sounds like that’s a universally agreed-upon fun-thing-to-do in Guild Wars).

I’m looking at dungeon sets now, but the pics are pretty low res. Does anyone have a good link to see what dungeon, crafted, cultural, and other armor looks like? Also, is there any gear set that’s not dungeon, crafted, or cultural? (Not talking PvP, i want it to be something I can show off in the world).

Thanks again for all the help. We’ll see if this keeps my interests!

As the OP is satisfied with the discussion and comments from others in this thread (despite the frequent derailing and off-topic and rude posts, including derailing by the OP), this topic will be locked.