Guild Wars 2

But Killcannon, what does that have to do with AoE damage? They’re nerfing AoE becase of AoE damage specifically. Bunker eles, need some kind of a nerf no doubt. But nerfing AoE to five targets won’t effect bunker elementalists.

Screw this, I’m just going to roll a thief like everybody else…

maddoctor.2738:

The only situation, where AOE is overpowered, compared to any other build, is when doing world events in PVE. Proper mob tagging at those Temple events for example, is impossible without lots of AOE skills, those skills also make the events trivial, even if more and more mobs spawn they will be killed at the same rate as when they are fewer.

As I said I’m not even sure how reducing the AoE damage would do anything to this. You would still use AoEs to tag those mobs. For as long as AoEs do damage you can use them for tagging. I’m not even sure if you need AoE to do damage. It might be enough to tag an enemy as long as the AoE does something to enemy. I.e. the blind well.

Also you have a good point. No one really wants to fight vets and champs because there’s no reward and the enemies themselves are horribly boring big bags of hp. I find it somewhat strange that Anet would complain about AoEs when people have specifically said they hate how long it takes to down a single vet or champ. I like it that trash mobs die fast.

It’s much better to kill ~10 regular mobs than a single vet mob. It’s also better to kill a vet mob than a champ mob as champs are significantly harder and have pretty much the same chance to drop something – which is to say they often drop nothing.

my main is a staff elementalist…and i dont even like when i use an aoe and see people standing there like no problem, if it were some kind of picnic…if it has reduced damage then it would be even worse, for start with i dont even do that huge damage, so i dont know what kind of changes or nerfs they have in mind but will need to be very well done, and i dont use aoe in one single, so i dont know where they got the data which people using aoes for one single target…probably from only awful players.

spvp is another story, i dont do spvp…if those bunker eles are so powerful there, then do that kind of changes there, i found d/d eles in wvwvw so useless and weak, they are free badges literally…almost as thieves trying to do heartseeker around (but atleast they can perma stealth), in the pve map since is linked with wvwvw i supose those nerfs/changes wont be there

Zonzai.2341:

<snip> But nerfing AoE to five targets won’t effect bunker elementalists. </snip>

AoE is already capped to five targets.

Also FYI: Regular melee “autoattacks” are capped to three. Daggers for thieves and necros seem to be the exception. They still affect only one target.

Zonzai.2341:

But Killcannon, what does that have to do with AoE damage? They’re nerfing AoE becase of AoE damage specifically. Bunker eles, need some kind of a nerf no doubt. But nerfing AoE to five targets won’t effect bunker elementalists.

Screw this, I’m just going to roll a thief like everybody else…

The nerf to aoe damage come from the fact that since the ele’s cannot be effectively controlled with current tactics, they have a constant dps output that is always in your face in tourneys. It upsets the current builds who are used to seeing an ele and just rolling over them. So now they can’t and the complaints commence. And with the seeming focus on spvp and “esports” for whatever reason the devs have, this becomes a priority for them. Seriously though…esports? That term makes me laugh.

If bunker Ele’s are a problem in sPvP nerf them there only. They are not an issue in any other realm of the game. Bunker Guards are more of a problem in WvW and take less skill but neither are really a problem. If anything I think some classes need a buff and some need a tweak here or there but not a big red nerf bat.

Zonzai.2341:

---

Just for fun…

Professions that benefit from reduced AoE effectiveness:

1. DD eles (They’ll be even more FotM because other elementalists will be weakened)

Professions that are weakened from reduced AoE:

1. Non-DD Elementalists (they’ll be the hardest hit with four attunements designed for ranged AOE)

I don’t know if that’s entirely accurate but it’s my assessment.

DD eles are all AoE with the exception being the earth auto attack

TheBlueRaja.4293:

alcopaul.2156:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-919RMwyfnk

Dev: “AoE must be OP”

Sooo, the fact that small, highly-skilled squads can effectively dismantle an unorganized zerg by intelligent use of skills, terrain and communication leads Anet to deduce that AoE needs to be “toned down”?

Maybe it was that decent players are using AoE for area denial. Or, it could be that ANet feel zergs were being “unfairly” punished for mindlessly funneling through obvious choke points.

In all seriousness, ANet really needs to have at least one PR person review and/or sit with Devs while they do these livestreams to prevent them from pulling a ‘Jay Wilson’ like they did with this last stream i.e. saying crap that will set player base into an uproar. Saying that you are going to nerf AoE without also putting forth at least an outline or some idea of how you are going to approach said nerf is about one of the worst things the Devs could have done.

This. I don’t see how you could watch this and come away with the idea that AoE is a problem in the game. This is precisely the kind of play you want to encourage. Not even AoE specifically but organized thoughtful play. It has a predictable outcome.

It’s like watching a vid of a skilled d/d ele and being concerned about a profession that rewards skillful play. This is exactly what they should be striving for in all professions.

It’s not like we will ever have a player base that is not reactionary. What we need to work toward is a developer base that doesn’t react to reactionaries.

Xanex.1397:

If bunker Ele’s are a problem in sPvP nerf them there only. They are not an issue in any other realm of the game. Bunker Guards are more of a problem in WvW and take less skill but neither are really a problem. If anything I think some classes need a buff and some need a tweak here or there but not a big red nerf bat.

They don’t “need” to be nerfed anywhere. They need to let the counter develop on it’s own. The other classes have plenty of skills, they just need to use them, or learn to use them. The bunker ele came from a need to make the ele viable in the first place (in pve, wvw, and spvp), and now that it is, they want to kill the build.

Remember that damage, radius, cooldowns, duration, and range can all be nerfed/buffed. Some of the AOEs need toned down or others buffed.

As a power necro I can tell you the damage I do is abysmal with all my staff skills(they scale poorly with power) except #4, even then it still won’t do as much damage as pretty much any elementalist AOE and I have to spend 10 traits just to get the radius just as big as some of their skills and they can trait to go even bigger. Sure our marks trigger instantly but that is also very bad, if a single enemy triggers it before the rest get in the AOE is wasted. The only good AOE we really have is wells and they are limited to 900 range. Even if you want to count conditions/utility that comes with our AOE other classes still do better AOE with better conditions/utility.

Yes, I even envy thieves as a necro. Clusterbomb does a ton of damage and on my thief I can just keep firing them off as they land for great damage and bleeding. On top of that it’s a blast finisher! The necro blast finisher is on a 25s cooldown and only does damage and transfer conditions of friendlies in the AOE to enemies(not super handy most of the time).

As for PvE, AOE is fine besides balancing it between classes. It’s actually necessary most of the time since melee is suicide due to the complete lack of survivability for most melee builds. Why go melee a single target and die vs AOE all targets and live? Maybe if ArenaNet tones down their AOE and makes being melee survivable more people would do it.

WvW, yeah AOE needs tweaked here. It needs to do less damage BUT hit more people(10-15?) and a few Aoe’s need their radius toned down. People constantly talk about wanting 5 people to wipe out a zerg but they completely forget the opposite side of that coin. The same mechanics that allow a 5 man to wipe out a zerg allow a zerg to decimate another zerg or small group even faster. Toning down damage and increasing the numbers hit will allow small groups to live longer but zergs to die faster.

I play a Staff Elementalist, and I use AoE attacks against single targets.

Why? To create a form of burst damage. I’ll often start a fight with Earth #2, and while that’s building up, I’ll change and drop a Fire #2 in the same place. The fire goes off, then the earth blast catches them as they start to run towards me (Fire/Blast combo, by the way). At that point, it’s mostly my auto attacks, with occasional changes to earth to drop another Earth #2 to keep bleeds going.

If I could do this with more effective single target attacks, I’d gladly do so. If you want to nerf our AoEs, then by all means, turn the Elementalist staff into some kind of arcane sniper rifle and I’ll use and abuse it.

nerva.7940:

Marvingy.6327:

Could you please state the preliminary findings?
Which AoE’s are pinging your radar?

well necros
d/d eles
mind wrack

in that order. id be surprised if findings are different.

Shatter mesmers have just had an adjustment. Mind Wrack doesn’t seem overpowered to me now.

Palador.2170:

I play a Staff Elementalist, and I use AoE attacks against single targets.

Why?

Because 90% of staff ele attacks are aoe, we literally have no choice and close to all our damaging aoes are clearly telegraphed and can be dodged out of by players who have a clue.

nerva.7940:

Marvingy.6327:

Could you please state the preliminary findings?
Which AoE’s are pinging your radar?

well necros
d/d eles
mind wrack

in that order. id be surprised if findings are different.

Necro staff build is useless. All abilities are slow and don’t do a lot of damage. If going for circles and condition build that uses AoE your primary attack gets reduced to about 200 damage a hit, one hit a second. Essentially you’re pretty underpowered as a necro. You do have survivability though.

maddoctor.2738:

The only situation, where AOE is overpowered, compared to any other build, is when doing world events in PVE. Proper mob tagging at those Temple events for example, is impossible without lots of AOE skills, those skills also make the events trivial, even if more and more mobs spawn they will be killed at the same rate as when they are fewer.

That’s not a problem with AOE skills but with event design, for a game that promotes cooperation, those events are selfish, there is a “race” between the players to tag as many mobs as possible, often disregarding the leveled Veteran mobs because they aren’t worth the effort (xp/loot wise) and focusing on as many normal mobs as possible. That’s not a problem with AOE or any build, it’s the problem with how these events are designed, and how they give rewards.

What’s the problem with event rewards? They don’t exist, at all. Players don’t do events that use multiple mobs because they are more fun or because they are more rewarding than others AS EVENTS, but because more mobs mean more loot, this is very bad content design, I know the game focuses around the individual, but how about support builds? Anyone that actually buffs his allies or heals, instead of throwing AOEs around is doing it wrong, he won’t get rewarded for actually HELPING and SAVING allies, he might get that Gold Medal for contribution but he won’t get material drops or more item drops that someone who is using AOE to tag more mobs will get.

Easy solution: remove all drops from any mobs that spawn in events. Add a high amount of drops, proportional to the amount of the mobs, in the end reward chest. That way, single target builds, support builds, tanking builds, ALL builds will become viable and the players will start coordinating instead of being mindless AOE spammers. Nerfing AOE skills for the sake of PVE events won’t help much, people will still use AOEs even if their damage is reduced to nothing, because you will still get more contribution, and tag more mobs, therefore more loot.

tl;dr
Regarding AOE in PVE: It’s not that AOE skills are overpowered, the rewards for doing open world events are designed in a way to promote selfish behaviour, as players enter a “race” to tag more mobs, more mobs = more loot.

100% agree regarding AOE in pve. You can’t give nothing but situations where AOE should be the best option 95% of the time, then complain that people are only using aoe because it’s the best option.

1. Stop scaling events by simply adding hordes of normal mobs that instantly melt to combined player AOE. How about instead of sending ~20 weak mobs almost every event, half of them scale by instead sending 2 champions?

2. The tagging metagame is lame and you guys should really remove it. It’s not just about aoe damage vs single target damage. It’s aoe damage vs supporting and resing. It’s aoe damage vs controlling and “tanking” dangerous single foes. Right now everything but max aoe tagging setups is discouraged. Make the majority of rewards come with the medal at the end.

Now I do think there are certain “aoe” abilities that are over the top. Some are too much damage for too low cooldown. For instance, thief cluster bomb. It’s WAY to spammable for the damage it does when compared to thief single target options, p/d or p/p.

I think warrior melee cleave is worth looking at too. HB does good single target damage already, yet it obliterates clumps of targets as well. I wonder if all melee cleave type attacks should do 25-50% reduced damage to the non primary target.

IMO, I think you’re really opening a can of worms by getting the mindset of “aoe is OP”. The vast majority of attacks in this game hit more than one target. After months of people getting used to playing the game one way, you’re threatening to change the whole feel of the game? It’s really dangerous ground.

Northlander.4619:

Zonzai.2341:

<snip> But nerfing AoE to five targets won’t effect bunker elementalists. </snip>

AoE is already capped to five targets.

Also FYI: Regular melee “autoattacks” are capped to three. Daggers for thieves and necros seem to be the exception. They still affect only one target.

I see, thanks for clearing that up.

killcannon.2576:

Zonzai.2341:

But Killcannon, what does that have to do with AoE damage? They’re nerfing AoE becase of AoE damage specifically. Bunker eles, need some kind of a nerf no doubt. But nerfing AoE to five targets won’t effect bunker elementalists.

Screw this, I’m just going to roll a thief like everybody else…

The nerf to aoe damage come from the fact that since the ele’s cannot be effectively controlled with current tactics, they have a constant dps output that is always in your face in tourneys. It upsets the current builds who are used to seeing an ele and just rolling over them. So now they can’t and the complaints commence.

So the problem with bunker eles is that they do too much AoE damage? That blows my mind because they don’t seem to do much damage. In my (limited) experience the problem with them is that they are hard to kill. Help me understand this because I don’t get it at all.

killcannon.2576:

And with the seeming focus on spvp and “esports” for whatever reason the devs have, this becomes a priority for them. Seriously though…esports? That term makes me laugh.

I completely agree, this is clearly their number one priority and only consideration for game “balance” at present. It was the one thing that I can actually say I hated about GW1 and it will suck for GW2 too. Not because they shouldn’t balance around it but because they totally abandon balancing the professions and other content while they spend the first year of the game balancing sPvP. (At least that is seemingly what happened in GW1.)

Mirta.5029:

nerva.7940:

Marvingy.6327:

Could you please state the preliminary findings?
Which AoE’s are pinging your radar?

well necros
d/d eles
mind wrack

in that order. id be surprised if findings are different.

Necro staff build is useless. All abilities are slow and don’t do a lot of damage. If going for circles and condition build that uses AoE your primary attack gets reduced to about 200 damage a hit, one hit a second. Essentially you’re pretty underpowered as a necro. You do have survivability though.

Yeah, I don’t think wells are overpowered in the slightest. What makes you think this Nerva?

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.

Thank you for taking the time to adress this. I know that I’ve been overreacting with this. The thing is that I’ve really been struggling finding a good place in PvP with my staff elementalist, and I was worried that it would get even tougher.

I shouldn’t have jumped to conclusions. My apologies.

They don’t do a lot of damage, you have to trade off damage for survivability. I play a d/d ele, takes me forever to kill stuff compared to a damage build, but, it’s hard to kill me too. The people who complain seem to say that it’s “no fun” to play against them, not that they are a threat to their lives. That eventually they will always lose a war of attrition against them. Of course these guys ideas of fun is to instagib people then call them names or insult their profession, so go figure.

Well with that note, I have less reason to create the Ele I was on the fence of making as the 5th WvW profession.

I actually thought that was the intended design of the profession. Similar to how Warrior should be able to attain the best DPS in melee range.

HB isn’t all to useful, if your speccing glass cannon, your opening yourself to drop like a bag a potatoes. Plus it is stationary. I don’t know many that will stand in front of a ballista and let it hit them, also should be able to assume people run with conditional and skill to break free.

In any event, I thought it seems fine atm, set to AoE 5 limit. Even seems small already. But if the nerf bat strikes again, I’m certain there are reasons and data we are not entitled too.

If it’s just to get more 1:1 style game play, that would be unfortunate. In a game, that doesn’t offer … a duel system.

EDIT: Are we moving over to coordinated spike builds again where every month a new spike build comes out to get the skill nerf bat swinging again, is that the intention? Is it to fight zerg style game play completely? Whats the major culprit? or is just a thought atm.

These threads move so fast, I ponder the usefullness of even posting in them. But has anyone considered that the problem with AoE is the conquest format? You need to be on a point to defend it, that point is about the same size as most AoE effects.

If there were team arena games, 3v3, 5v5, 8v8 (like Gw1) then AoE would still have it’s uses but be ultimately avoidable. Just look at the GY point, it is so large that no AoE can cover it and you can dance around those effects easily.

I would argue for more game types before nerfs on builds that explicitly are overpowered in only one gametype.

Yet another “problem” brought about by downed state. If downed state were removed from PVP zones and HP and burst re-balanced around not having a downed state, the game would be so much better.

Downed state creates problems where no problems exist.

On topic, AOE does not need nerfs. There are already red circles on the ground f.f.s.

In WVW, AOE needs to be buffed I think – specifically the 5-target cap needs to be raised or removed. Downed state and 5-target AOE cap promote balling up and zerging, which is the exact opposite of what player behaviour should be being rewarded.

AOE is not a problem, it needs buffs if anything, and AOE-mitigation traits handed out to classes that need them (eg: thief: “take 35% less AOE damage while moving”).

They designed elementalists in a way that the class does make sense, this nerf/rework will have to adjust graphically with the class (animations and such) and its philosophy.

@Edit
Oh, and ele players never ever complained about other classes who have much stronger AoE attacks despite this being one of our class’ highlights.

The melee classes damage are fine, the 1vs1 damage is…well more than fine (just look at how much thieves brag in pvp, wvw). Why does the dev team need to nerf a combat mechanic that belongs to the other classes? All classes should have a role, please don’t homogenize the roles like other mmo’s do, where it just boils down to “Well, should just play a (insert class here) because they can do what all the other classes do AND has better survivability due to whatever reason” Right now I feel unique when I play my warrior, or ele, or ranger, or necro, or mesmer. They each have things that make them fun to play. The future that you are talking about (where you give mesmer portals to other classes, tone down aoe, god knows what else) is the future we have already seen in other mmo’s. There was a reason why people quit the other mmo’s and came here, and it wasn’t all because of a subscription.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.

Your logic, reasons, anecdotes and ideas are being listened to. Also keep in mind, that as I said yesterday, a skill can be a balance problem in one area of the game, but underpowered in another. That’s the nature of using one set of #‘s to balance across all areas of the game. So we’re keeping that in mind as we look at this. We may need to do different tweaks in different areas of the game.

We’re also not going to make a knee jerk reaction to this. We’re still gathering data, watching player trends, and having meetings on all possible ramifications from possible changes.

Perfect response. Thanks!

AoE was a problem in that “other” game too, and I think they did nerf it modestly.

The five-target limit doesn’t make logical sense unless it’s like chain lightning or something. Some forms of AoE might spread the damage so that 10 targets would receive 1/10 the damage, but that would probably only exacerbate the exact issue that AN is trying to fix.

If it is genuinely a problem, I think making the AoE end more quickly is the best solution. It would be easier to tweak individual skills in this way as well, by changing recharge timers and effect time.

I’ve played many games where AoE was waaay to good, Guild Wars 2 isn’t one of them.
I have no idea where this idea came from, it’s not needed imho.

morrolan.9608:

Palador.2170:

I play a Staff Elementalist, and I use AoE attacks against single targets.

Why?

Because 90% of staff ele attacks are aoe, we literally have no choice and close to all our damaging aoes are clearly telegraphed and can be dodged out of by players who have a clue.

True. I play only PvE, and didn’t think to add in comments about PvP. It’s true, though. Not only are most staff Ele attacks AoE, but I can’t imagine even a half-way competent player standing in them without good reason.

The one time I entered PvP was with my ranger, to get the wolf pet in the Eternal Battleground. More than once I saw a red circle appear, and I got the youthful feline out of it, usually before taking any actual damage.

doing direct nerfs to aoe abilities would be horrible decisions, done with kitten sPvP/tPvP goggles on. Which tbh, is not what the majority of the players play gw2 for.

Have to second comment above me, “I have no idea where this idea came from”. I’ve never seen gw2 aoe being a problem.

I can’t really see how they would pull this off, seems to me it would change all classes completely, unless they just go to nerf certain classes. Like say D/D & staff eles whose pretty much all abilities are aoe. But there it would ruin the class because of the neccesity of constant attunument dance. Say if they changed air to pure single target dmg it would ruin the whole attunument rotation. Only chance would be them buffing #1s to much higher dmg but pure single target, making things quite boring.

And even as a non-roleplayer. GW2s speciality is the more action-rpg style combat than traditional mmo, that’s why most of the abilities are aoe in the first place.

So I cannot give any support to Anet on this. Although they have given so little information about it so one can’t make a proper argument against it nor for it.

AOE shapes GW2 combat. It is AoE that encourages us to dodge roll more than anything. If it is weak then we will soak it more.

The whole movement game is highly rewarding when it involves area control. Clump and control enemies, aoe them for high reward vs divide and conquer via single target DPS. The danger of having multiple enemies together is they can counter aoe (like Ascalon warriors in Ascalon fractal cleaving everyone.)

I don’t want this game to be more about single target DPS. I’d much rather dodge rumbling eruptions of stone that will shred my internal organs than have to pick out the solid black armor miniature Asura’s kill shot and dodge it or die.

I want this game to stay about the shape of the battlefield and be about positioning. Yes I could change the fleeing thief but then I run into the enemy engineer’s turret’s range and there’s an enemy warrior engaged with a friendly guardian, if I get close I might get cleaved.

I want those things to matter. The last thing I want is to spend all my time scrutinizing the area for thief backstab combos or kill shots because single target rules the day.

AoE allows reaction time, rewards movement, rewards positioning, rewards teamwork to deny/control/etc.

Sorry, forgot to mention. I also want to fight heroically large groups of enemies that require teamwork and area control to overcome odds in PVE.

Example being grawls rushing the rock in the Volcano fractal. Using snares/aoes and cleave at the base of the rock means effective battling.

I absolutely hate throwing attacks at a single colossal enemy until the hp bar goes away while 1-2 people kite it in circles.

IMO, there is an imbalance between AoE and Single Target damage in the game. However, it is not a universal “all AoE skills are OP’d” problem, nor is it a “nerf all AoE by 50%” sort of problem.

Any across the board cuts should be gradual, no more than 20% and then several passes should be made to fine tune individual AoE skills, up or down, in much smaller increments.

Some games have taken a really ham handed approach to the same problem, taking somewhat OP’s AoE skills and nerfing them into uselessness. Usefulness of AoE should not be based on them only being useful vs. 4 to 5 opponents. Single Target skills should always be the best skills for 1 vs. 1, but AoE should always be better when facing 2+ opponents.

To be honest, I was a little surprised by the AoE nerf announcement, because I’ve seen a number of theory-crating examples for numerous professions since launch that make the case for sequential, single target killing builds over AoE builds as the most efficient strategy.

Here is a question to the devs, why aren’t you buffing other things instead of weakening AoEs? The elementalist will be hit hard by any and all changes to AoE, even if only a few skills get nerfed. Why is it that you hold thief and warrior so high and continue nerfing every and any aspect of the weaker classes? All you keep saying is that you understand that it shouldn’t be a blanket nerf but based on your previous balance changes, I’m not convinced. Tell us where you are getting these numbers for your point, tell us your specific reason (and zerging isn’t one, that has another fix called “making wvw better”), and tell us what to expect from this in more detail.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.

Your logic, reasons, anecdotes and ideas are being listened to. Also keep in mind, that as I said yesterday, a skill can be a balance problem in one area of the game, but underpowered in another. That’s the nature of using one set of #‘s to balance across all areas of the game. So we’re keeping that in mind as we look at this. We may need to do different tweaks in different areas of the game.

We’re also not going to make a knee jerk reaction to this. We’re still gathering data, watching player trends, and having meetings on all possible ramifications from possible changes.

I’d be more reassured by this if it resembled actual actions, but your previous changes don’t match those words. Those words are very reasonable, but past changes show very little concern for painful reductions on players in different arenas. To the point now where I have delayed or almost abandoned alts I was starting to enjoy, and to the point where I’m wondering how much longer I’ll be playing because the game’s direction seems so wrong.

Most changes seem to reduce our choices because they make previously good options now lackluster, instead of elevating lackluster options to be better. Or perhaps a better way to put it is that the changes seem intended to give the illusion of enhanced choice by making them all similarly lackluster, which has the effect of increasing frustration and tedium while playing. Perhaps for a small minority the forced (as opposed to the much more preferred voluntary) increase in difficulty is enjoyable, but the vast majority simply have to spend more time getting the same rewards in the game.

The optimist in me would like to see those words as a sign of a sea change in your approach, but the pessimist in me wonders if they’re just hollow verbiage to temporarily placate a volatile crowd, or, perhaps even worse, a symptom of such staggering self-deception that hope for future improvement should be forsaken.

More specifically on-topic, AoE is in some cases the only redeeming virtue of some classes and builds. Engineer DPS has been neutered in the name of flexibilty, as have many DPS options for Elementalists. To now have their AoE options further limited while effectively elevating others who focus on single-target skills (typically classes and builds already seen by players as superior) seems like an extremely wrong-headed move. Others here are providing ample detailed arguments to that effect.

Uhhh…people are only spamming AoE on single targets because they don’t know any better and are used to mashing everything on rotation. Which probably means the grand whopping majority of players.

The main reason why AoE is “OP” in PvE is because it lets you tag everything to get kill/loot credit, whereas you’re SOL if you try to single-target everything down due to contribution scores.

YojimboJones.6243:

These threads move so fast, I ponder the usefullness of even posting in them. But has anyone considered that the problem with AoE is the conquest format? You need to be on a point to defend it, that point is about the same size as most AoE effects.

Bingo. I think that’s the issue right there. If anything, add more conquest points to the map. Necro can’t take an AoE damage nerf in PvE. Without minions, appropriately powerful (for PvE) conditions or AoE they’ll be mostly useless outside of PvP. Unless of course Anet wants to cut the HP pool of nearly every mob in half. I don’t see that happening though. I don’t think they really know what they want for the PvE game at this point.

I’m just going to say that I find it interesting that they’re supposedly wanting to nerf all aoe because they’re listening to “our” feedback, but ever since they made the announcement I can’t seem to find any comments at all from players who agree with and are happy about their decision. Have they all slunk away, satisfied to gloat in private?

You can really see why the elementalist are up in arms. just because people know how to utilize their soldier for battle and those without a tactic and charge into choke points in WvW, means they don’t know how fight a battle. I have seen many commanders in WvW just run their zerg head on into the enemy because their only tactics is “Win by sheer numbers”. There was once a zerg was lead into a trap and got wipe. Is this tactics or is this AoE spammage? So, now I guess the situation will change from using elementalist to using several arrow carts and some warriors to finish the job for the above scenario. So, the zerg still got wipe with or without a group of elementalist. Cool. Next, you will see, “Arrow cart cooldown is being increase from xsecs to ysecx”. Because people still don’t know how to use tactics or strategy in a war.

You tell me? Better yet, someone with REAL battleground experience in the Gulf War or some WW2, Vietnam War vets who plays this game please explain what is the tactics used when trying to defend a choke point.

And when trying to finish a downed player, why can’t I finished him without doing that stupid finishing animation? If you want people to do that stupid finishing animation thing to finished off a down player, then I suggest you make downed state immune to attacks until someone do that “Finished Him” thing.

And besides, it is a WAR. Why must we give mercy in a war? Will they give mercy to me when I am downed? No. They will swamped over my downed body and finished me off.

So, tell me ANet, if WvWvW is not intended to be a war and we must show sportsmanship or mercy towards the enemy, then you all should list down a dos & don’ts for WvWvW.

For example:

1. No tactics can be used other than face to face combat.
2. Spamming AoE on downed players is forbidden. You must used the “Finished Him” option.
3. Chokepoints must not be defended. No battles are allowed near choke points
4. Use siege weapons only during a keeps/garrisons siege. Other forms of attack will or may result in a kick.
……etc

Ghanto.9784:

I’m just going to say that I find it interesting that they’re supposedly wanting to nerf all aoe because they’re listening to “our” feedback, but ever since they made the announcement I can’t seem to find any comments at all from players who agree with and are happy about their decision. Have they all slunk away, satisfied to gloat in private?

JonathanSharp
“Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.
Your logic, reasons, anecdotes and ideas are being listened to. Also keep in mind, that as I said yesterday, a skill can be a balance problem in one area of the game, but underpowered in another. That’s the nature of using one set of #‘s to balance across all areas of the game. So we’re keeping that in mind as we look at this. We may need to do different tweaks in different areas of the game.
We’re also not going to make a knee jerk reaction to this. We’re still gathering data, watching player trends, and having meetings on all possible ramifications from possible changes.

Some classes have a ton of AOE, while others don’t have as much. So we’re not just going to do a blanket nerf to all AOE – that’s not fair to all classes. We’ll go on a class by class, weapon by weapon basis.
And as I’ve said, we may need to tone something down in one area of the game, but it may be totally fine in another area.
For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address."

Not all AOE

Dear Anet,

Please, before you make any changes to AOE, carefully consider what this will mean to so many specs of classes; but most notably the elementalist and necromancer staff user. Every push of a button is an AOE to those classes, already they are considered subpar due to low damage in non berzerker gear. The number of full berzerker ele’s is low from what I have seen. I don’t even know how to gear a necro for maximum damage. Out of those ‘zerker ele’s, and there is one in my small tactical guild, they spend a lot of their time dead.

A class shouldn’t be forced to go ‘zerker to be competetive, but it’s happening. We are seeing it from engineers and rangers due to their dismal damage potentials. We see it in thieves and we all complain how overpowered this is, even thief players recognize that it’s out of hand. We have seen what ‘zerker warriors can do with a rifle or a greatsword. What’s next? Well, in response to the out of hand practices of thieves, several of us in my guild that play guardians as mains and alts are talking about making berzerker guardians. Why? Even in our bunker gear we are getting insta-gibbed by thieves. We figure we might as well gear for damage since our 3200+ armor means NOTHING.

So what is really broken? Maybe it’s armor? Maybe armor needs to diminish a bit more damage, I have speculated a stealth nerf of armor because I used to feel well protected at 3k+ armor. Now it seems pointless. Maybe it’s the berzerker sets? Maybe there should be some real limits or hard caps on crit chance and damage?

Whatever the case, I don’t think AOE damage per se is where we are really needing to look. AOE is easily dodged and mitigated. AOE has already been nerfed. Direct damage is already higher and being used to far greater effect.

@ UnderdogSMO.9428

Right, I listened to the livestream and heard that, and I’m reserving judgment, because obviously it’s all up in the air at the moment and there’s next to no specifics to base any judgement on. But it’s pretty clear they intend to make SOME changes to aoe: it’s just a matter of what changes, and to what classes, and will those changes apply only in pvp or pve or both? With only eight classes/professions in the game and everything in the game either pve or pvp/wvw, I figure there’s probably at least a 50% chance they’re going to do something that has a direct affect on the profession(s) I play and that I’m probably not going to be very happy with it. I think that’s what has a lot of people worried. But again, we’ll just have to wait and see. If they implement their changes smartly and give a compensating “boon” for every nerf, maybe it will be okay. For one thing, I imagine nerfing aoe damage will likely require increased dps and/or increased range on other single-target skills, especially for light-armor wearers.

I really don’t know if this has been mentioned as honestly I’m really to tired to read 5 extensive pages of the same repeated argument over and over.

I know from my angle, I have both Ele and a Thief and I’d like to know when AOE damage does what some thieves can do.

Being in WvW the other day I watched from a tower as one thief took out (solo) a squad of at least 8-12 people (kinda hard to count when they are running around) that were escorting 2 golems (they didn’t survive either). Using Aoe alot as I do on ele, there is no way I can do that, I have never seen a warlock pull that off and mesma’s, yes we all have our love/hate on them too, they don’t even pull that kind of damage. The closest I have seen come to that is a well spec ranger from inside a tower.

I do agree thieves need a nerf in combat, but if they are complaining about aoe killing them so badly.. Nerf combat and buff their toughness, the first thing I noticed with a thief is when they do get hit, they can’t take it.

^That right there…. Thieves seem to rule this game and it is annoying. It is why I take particular satisfaction in destroying thieves.

Hickeroar.9734:

AOE always struck me as being UNDERpowered in GW2. Certainly not OVERpowered. shrug

Yes same, Stealth on the other hand..

My thoughts are how will this affect new players, you level in PvE and some classes have a really tough time competing to get to level 80 as it is now with AoEs…

So how on earth will it affect new players entering the game, elementalists, Necromancers, and Mesmers are all heavily reliant on AoE..how will these said classes level up anymore?

Also many classes seem relatively weak at low levels (Ele is insanely weak), so i say its not the AoEs at all its the scaling in this game is completely broken..

To prove my point take a level 80 character to a starter zone and shoot/hit mobs (it doesn’t feel like you’re scaled down to level 5 does it) you one shot or two shot them, a proper level 5 does not, the weapons aren’t scaling properly, so at level 80 you are extremely overpowered..

On the elemental – Meteor Shower…“How embarrassing”
Necromancer – well, at least I died less
Ranger – combo of range and a bit more health …. This has possibilities.
Warrior – oh, that was easier
Guardian – I am still alive, and I have options to do actual damage. Nice.
All PVE open world experiences.
AOE nerfs seem they would cripple the most vulnerable professions.

I’ll be in wait-and-see on this, but the announcement came as a shock to me. I certainly didn’t perceive AoE as a problem. Some assumptions that I question:

1) People are using AoE v. single targets, and this means AoE is too strong. More likely, they are using AoE v. ST because their weapon set-up only offers 2-3 skills that damage and that are on CD’s, meaning they use the AoE because the alternative is to just auto-attack.

2) That it’s a bad thing for players trying to revive downed allies to be targeted by AoE. If this is the case, will dungeon mobs be doing less AoE on downed players? Because that’s pretty much what happens. If it’s OK for mob AI to play smart, it should be OK for players to do so also.

If they do an across the board nerf to AoEs, then necros will be totally screwed. Staff has nothing but AoEs (other than the auto-attack) and any semblance of necro burst would be destroyed if they nerf wells (which are already on an insanely long cooldown).

There better be some serious compensation for necromancers if this AoE nerf comes to fruition. That’s basically the only reason I stick with this class at this point.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.

Your logic, reasons, anecdotes and ideas are being listened to. Also keep in mind, that as I said yesterday, a skill can be a balance problem in one area of the game, but underpowered in another. That’s the nature of using one set of #‘s to balance across all areas of the game. So we’re keeping that in mind as we look at this. We may need to do different tweaks in different areas of the game.

We’re also not going to make a knee jerk reaction to this. We’re still gathering data, watching player trends, and having meetings on all possible ramifications from possible changes.

We’d love to see this so called data since your current count on the “Listening to the Playerbase” scoreboard is zilch.

My take on AoE is that it’s necessary, because it adds more to emphasis to movement, timing, and positioning for what makes good play. If the game had no AoE, it would be more of a numbers game between how many combatants there are. Positioning would be less important and movement would be less important without AoE and there’d be practically no ways to heal allies in the game without AoE.

Why make AoE less significant and therefore make movement and positioning less significant. Obviously tweak OP skills, but surely don’t nerf AoE as a whole.

The problem with AoE damage is that ANet has placed to much importance on damage and survivability. The first thing they ought to do is improve the things that are drastically inferior to it – group support, CC, conditions. This isn’t the same team that made GW1. It can’t possibly be.

killcannon.2576:

Pixelninja.6971:

LordByron.8369:

Look as in game a warrior alone can do more damage than 2 other players while facetanking a boss……

What Game are you playing? In most Dungeons and Fractals, Warriors use the rifle most of the time. Show me some Videos of Warriors at Fractal lvl 30+, who are “facetanking” Bosses besides exploited Mossman.

There are actually more dungeons than just fractals. There have been a few vids of warriors soloing various explorable modes.

Yeah and the guy who did the soloing of those explorable modes is an EXTREMELY skilled player, one of the best. Same with the guy who soloed some explorable modes on an Ele.

Skill =/= OP class

Well AOE the Staff is mainly a AOE weapon so if they nerfing aoe there nerfing most of the staffs skills right there witch make a better argument for ele to have weapon switch on the ~ toggle for them to actually fight I find myself using AOE mostly for target control seriously if you die to a Ele aoe your just bad at gw’s 2 get out of the aoe and that how it usually goes people move so aoe is not a problem. But yea area control using aoe you can effectively herd people to were you want them to go or were you don’t want them IE them trying to rez a opponent fast a meteor shower over the down person and make them back up, I have seen one post though quick browsing they had a problem with this. But Very rarely do I use AOE in wvw as a direct attack outside of a ram or stationary object, AOE effects does not move the target however can they are not insta kill a normal person maybe get hit by 2 metor showers for maybe 500 hp each hit and be like o I should move not sun bath in this. My Main is a Ele and Ele as by description on a.nets main page under elementalist is the master of AOE second to none. Although I see other classes AOE’s that can out do even my max AoE combo Lava font, fire storm, metor, and earth all stacked if anything that needs to be looked into, Elementals are very fragile AOE is there main thing people complain about them hard to kill, they have skill sets to compensate for there weak armor/life So that hard elementalist that is so hard to kill just has a good skill set going that takes timing and practice to get down witch takes practice and timing to overcome in a fight ele get low on health keep your knock down skill handy and try to guess when he/she’s going to heal slam them there heal skill is on recharge while down and finish them, So all the complants about ele are hard to kill to me sounds just like these people don’t know how to fight a ele not the ele’s fault ele’s have there own problems and having there AOE nerfed if anything it needs to be buffed. If you stand in a aoe and let yourself die you deserve to die it’s that simple.