Guild Wars 2

Xae Isareth.1364:

Also, no MMO on earth would possibly allow you to play as much as you want and never repeat a thing.

Repaiting is no problem if it’s fun and rewarding.

Xae Isareth.1364:

darkace.8925:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

notice how many times “can we” is mentioned?

they tried?

the problem is the players, not the developers.
the players left the game because there was not enough grind.
the players felt boring because there was not enough grind.

etc.

I firmly believe that the kinds of players who stuck around for carrots, treadmills, and grinds are the exact kinds of players who are going to jump ship the moment the next flashy MMO hits the market. I doubt they were ever in it for the long haul regardless of what changes the developers made. If I’m right and they do leave, that leaves a game designed for players that no longer play. Just as bad, that leaves a portion of jaded players who otherwise would have supported the game long-term with a game they no longer enjoy.

With the next-gen consoles, several AAA MMOs, and an inevitable WoW expansion all around the corner, we’ll see soon enough whether I’m right or wrong. For ArenaNet’s sake, they’d better hope I’m wrong.

I don’t know about that. A lot of players play MMOs to achieve something and show off, it’s often those players that play MMOs like single player games, ie just for fun, that move on after they’ve gobe through everythibg in the game. The grinders tend to hang around because they’ve done so much work they don’t want to start as a newbie again.

It’s the very reason why games like RuneScape are popular, because you can work your kitten off to achieve something and feel über about it.

Also have to agree like this. Suddenly I see many wise comments popping up.

dcypher.2590:

Draco.2806:

Galen Grey.4709:

What happened is players were greedy…

What happened is that the game ended up having a pitiful amount of content for an MMO, most of it repetitive and not fun, with most rewarding kind being locked to absurd by-the-numbers grind in one-two high-level zones (one of which is terrible).

People never asked to be subjected to this barren wasteland like a stuck record. They asked for it to be improved, because there was room for improvement. But ANet seemingly didn’t listen. Since the end-game wasn’t enjoyable enough, many people who leveled out to 80 simply up and left.

Why you’re blaming players for ANet’s own failings to deliver on its own promise of level-agnostic content, horizontal progression, and hordes of content is beyond me.

Galen Grey.4709:

5 laurels, 20 laurels, 35 laurels or even 50 laurels is still something you earn by just playing the game.

This kind of logic as well.

30 days worth of quests for one of five trinkets? Even WoW would blush at this kind of nonsensical grind.

Honestly I think a huge part of it is how god awful the loot system in GW2 is. For some reason this mmo doesn’t have set loot tables, so people go to Orr and farm because they get everything all in the same place and virtually nothing from different areas. The champion runs finally gave a chance to get a specific skin from the boxes but the chance is so small even that is hardly worth wasting time on.

I feel people like games even if they have a gear grind like wow, swtor, rift, and soon to be wildstar because the loot systems make sense. This boss drops this stuff..go fight him for it. These other bosses drop this other stuff go fight him for it. In GW2 it’s kinda like fighting bosses and baddies and getting a pile of junk, like here ya go.

Yes and that was done on purpose to leave people free to play as they wish. No specific drops from specific mobs meant you didnt have to farm that mob to get that drop. They hoped rewards wouldnt be that important to people, content would be… That was a great idea which unfortunately didnt work out. People want their rewards and are not content unless those rewards feel valuable.

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

morrolan.9608:

Cause Carbine are being upfront about their intentions. Cause BiS equipment in Wowish games is actually easier to obtain than ascended items in GW2. Cause the game design is driven by endgame content.

Anet is big fat poopy heads for failing to be different enough, yet Carbine can outright say they’re re-making vanilla WoW and that makes them better.

That’s ‘government out of my medicare’ levels of cognitive dissonance there, but then again this thread pretty much went full of it as soon as Lanfear and Indigo left.

MikaHR.1978:

Draco.2806:

That all is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

If players are running a champ train twelve hours a day, it’s ArenaNet’s fault. If they’re farming Orr, ArenaNet’s fault. Players go where the game tells them to go, that’s simply the nature of any game. If having fun in the game requires playing against the game, that is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

Yup, i really love how it eventually turns “but its player’s fault”

No it isnt, unless your premise is that somehow ANet doesnt have control over their game.

But its all water under the bridge now, they implemented gear treadmill, very bad gear treadmill which most other games do much much better, and decided to follow WoW and its clones with game that want even designed for it. It certanly isnt what they advertised back at launch.

Yes, if you give freedom to players you loose control of it yourself. The game was designed so that anyone can play the game anyway they wish. At launch absolutely everything in game (except for the dungeon skins) could be acquired playing anywhere in the game. Free to play anywhere in the game also means you’re free to farm orr non stop 24/7.

A lot of the issues people have with Gw2 come because of too much freedom. Seems player have trouble enjoying themselves without being forced in a particular play style they are just incapable of choosing it for themselves.

Chaotic Storm.2815:

and this just shows us that Anet doesn’t have a clue what’s happening with their own game.

Because Anet’s metrics and testing completely fail against our Totally Non-Ancedotal And Unbiased Eyeballs Mark I.

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

if this was a subscription game, i would have quit about a month after i reached 80 on my first char.

because it is a “free” game I got six 80ies, left the game for couple of months, and recently returned.

since not much has changed (already made ascended weapon), and nothing is really interesting (some of the new world boss mechanics are fun, but how much can you do the same boss?)
there is nothing to do here again.

bottom line: the game is not fun as soon as you reach 80 unless you are heavy invested in WWW.

Regardless of if you think the game is on the right track or not, no one in their right mind can deny that they threw away the so called manifesto. When I first saw it I knew that would be the thing that would haunt them. It is really the equivalent of "John Romero is going to make you his <Expletive> "

Setting fire to the manifesto, bragging about their amazing voice acting and ending up with cringe-worthy results, and deviating so far from the original title with no apparent reason other than to be different is coming home to roost despite the hype train that still hasn’t stopped. I just don’t see it ending well until they step back and acquire a bit of humility and honest prospective about their product..

MikaHR.1978:

Yup, i really love how it eventually turns “but its player’s fault”

No it isnt, unless your premise is that somehow ANet doesnt have control over their game.

So basically Anet should do what their tools and studies say should be best for the game and ignore players like, for example, yourself?

Uruz Six.6594:

morrolan.9608:

Cause Carbine are being upfront about their intentions. Cause BiS equipment in Wowish games is actually easier to obtain than ascended items in GW2. Cause the game design is driven by endgame content.

Anet is big fat poopy heads for failing to be different enough, yet Carbine can outright say they’re re-making vanilla WoW and that makes them better.

That’s ‘government out of my medicare’ levels of cognitive dissonance there, but then again this thread pretty much went full of it as soon as Lanfear and Indigo left.

Just for the record. I think Wildstar is a bad example and not because I don’t like what I see there (WoW plus aliens and the the humor.. I like humor but don’t think it works very well in an MMO.. It does work in the trailers!) but because it’s not released yet. Back in the day people would use Anet to show as a good example and if it was to point towards GW1 that was fair but it was also to point towards the then not yet existing GW2.

You have no idea what Carbine will do even if you like what you are seeing now so I would suggest taking another example

Galen Grey.4709:

@draco

exploration, jumping puzzles and vistas might be inconsequential nonsense to you, its definitely not content that doesnt exist. Like I said, if you decided to skip content you’re entirely free to do so but if you’re accusing Anet of not creating not much content because you skipped most of it then you’re not being honest.

Normally I agree with almost everything you say. However, (there’s always a however in these posts isn’t there?). In this case I want to point out that whenever I complain about ascended gear and the grind someone invariably posts that it’s not necessary to play the game, I don’t have to do it, and I can ignore it.

If ignoring content you don’t like is fine for grindy stuff, it should also be acceptable for ridiculously repetitive stuff. I’m not a game designer and I know building games is difficult but so many of the dynamic events / hearts are substantially carbon copies of one another.

I know that for most games this is true. The same game loop repeats over and over gain, but a) most games ask for <40 hours of my time, not thousands, and b) they hide the repetition a little better.

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

RUSerious?

My grandfather had a vineyard but didnt drink any wine AT ALL.

He pretty much gave all 1000-1500 l of wine he made away.

morrolan.9608:

Galen Grey.4709:

Wildstar has a lot going for it and I will probably check it out myselkittenda nice that its scifi and the humor seems awesome.

But seriously I am confused how people annoyed with Gw2 for introducing a single tier with a promise that others arent going to be introduced for years to come if ever would think thats unacceptable and say they’re switching over to a game that has a gear treadmill part of its core design.

Cause Carbine are being upfront about their intentions. Cause BiS equipment in Wowish games is actually easier to obtain than ascended items in GW2. Cause the game design is driven by endgame content.

Sure fair enough, but if you dont like VP you dont like VP.. how is being upfront about your game having VP suddenly make it something you enjoy?

And not just that but Wildstar have even openly stated it will be impossible to have BiS, your equipement at best can be close to BiS because of how the chip system is going to work. Drops are made of fixed stats and stats coming from chips. The fixed stats are decided by the developers the chips will however be random. Some chips can be replaced but some will fixed and you have to live with what the RNG gods give you.

So again if you have trouble sticking to Exotics because they’re not BiS how can you find a game that will put you in a worst situation by making it essentially impossible to ever have BiS no matter how much effort you put in it be a game you look more forward to?

As for easier to acquire? hmm I dont know you never finish off acquiring gear in a vp game. Ascended gear might take a year to finish off but at least you can, in others you’re guranteed that you#re never done.

So once again I am confused how it is possible to look forward to a game that has a worst version of the stuff people say are making it impossible for them to enjoy Gw2.

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

RUSerious?

My grandfather had a vineyard but didnt drink any wine AT ALL.

He pretty much gave all 1000-1500 l of wine he made away.

In WoW people farmed bosses for mini’s and never use them. Whats your point here? There is still the reward. Yes I am serious.

Uruz Six.6594:

MikaHR.1978:

Yup, i really love how it eventually turns “but its player’s fault”

No it isnt, unless your premise is that somehow ANet doesnt have control over their game.

So basically Anet should do what their tools and studies say should be best for the game and ignore players like, for example, yourself?

Point.
,
,
,
,
,
,
,

,
,
,
,
,
,
,
You .

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

RUSerious?

My grandfather had a vineyard but didnt drink any wine AT ALL.

He pretty much gave all 1000-1500 l of wine he made away.

In WoW people farmed bosses for mini’s and never use them. Whats your point here? There is still the reward. Yes I am serious.

Did they gave away or destroyed their minis when they got them? And then grind away for another one?

They didnt grind because they enjoyed grinding. They wanted the mini.

You have problem with understanding intrisic/extrinsic values.

Galen Grey.4709:

MikaHR.1978:

Draco.2806:

That all is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

If players are running a champ train twelve hours a day, it’s ArenaNet’s fault. If they’re farming Orr, ArenaNet’s fault. Players go where the game tells them to go, that’s simply the nature of any game. If having fun in the game requires playing against the game, that is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

Yup, i really love how it eventually turns “but its player’s fault”

No it isnt, unless your premise is that somehow ANet doesnt have control over their game.

But its all water under the bridge now, they implemented gear treadmill, very bad gear treadmill which most other games do much much better, and decided to follow WoW and its clones with game that want even designed for it. It certanly isnt what they advertised back at launch.

Yes, if you give freedom to players you loose control of it yourself. The game was designed so that anyone can play the game anyway they wish. At launch absolutely everything in game (except for the dungeon skins) could be acquired playing anywhere in the game. Free to play anywhere in the game also means you’re free to farm orr non stop 24/7.

A lot of the issues people have with Gw2 come because of too much freedom. Seems player have trouble enjoying themselves without being forced in a particular play style they are just incapable of choosing it for themselves.

Except that the reward system is hopelessly screwed up. It’s not any more or less challenging to kill a trash mob alone than it is to kill champions in a champion farm, but champion farming gives a much higher reward. It’s like ANet is paying us to do stuff we don’t otherwise want to do.

I think that champion rewards need to be balanced with the rest of the content. Sure there should be an upside to doing it, but there shouldn’t be such an upside that every feels like they have to champion farm.

.

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

Actually this is extremely interesting.

I shockingly agree with MikaHR here that likely people who maintain a garden do it primarily cause they enjoy the gardening. Devata is also right in that they obviously choose plants they’re going to take something out off.

Reward is important, in that if you plant a garden but all plants die you’re not going to end up enjoying your gardening experience even though you’re doing what you love.

Like wise you’re not going to get your gardening enjoyment fix if you just go to the store and buy the veggies you were going to grow yourself.

It has to go in tandam you have to get the reward through the activity you enjoy doing. and thats what Gw2 tried to do in my opinion but in my experiance many just went and bought the stuff directly from the store and then feel the gardening experience wasnt enjoyable

TooBz.3065:

Galen Grey.4709:

MikaHR.1978:

Draco.2806:

That all is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

If players are running a champ train twelve hours a day, it’s ArenaNet’s fault. If they’re farming Orr, ArenaNet’s fault. Players go where the game tells them to go, that’s simply the nature of any game. If having fun in the game requires playing against the game, that is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

Yup, i really love how it eventually turns “but its player’s fault”

No it isnt, unless your premise is that somehow ANet doesnt have control over their game.

But its all water under the bridge now, they implemented gear treadmill, very bad gear treadmill which most other games do much much better, and decided to follow WoW and its clones with game that want even designed for it. It certanly isnt what they advertised back at launch.

Yes, if you give freedom to players you loose control of it yourself. The game was designed so that anyone can play the game anyway they wish. At launch absolutely everything in game (except for the dungeon skins) could be acquired playing anywhere in the game. Free to play anywhere in the game also means you’re free to farm orr non stop 24/7.

A lot of the issues people have with Gw2 come because of too much freedom. Seems player have trouble enjoying themselves without being forced in a particular play style they are just incapable of choosing it for themselves.

Except that the reward system is hopelessly screwed up. It’s not any more or less challenging to kill a trash mob alone than it is to kill champions in a champion farm, but champion farming gives a much higher reward. It’s like ANet is paying us to do stuff we don’t otherwise want to do.

I think that champion rewards need to be balanced with the rest of the content. Sure there should be an upside to doing it, but there shouldn’t be such an upside that every feels like they have to champion farm.

.

Dont worry, his post is pretty ridiculous. ANet made the game the way they made it, it pretty much said “go there farm that or get nothing at all” and then comes Galen along talking about freedom rofl

How long it took them to even make possible to get on level/rare/exotic loot drops on a bit lower level zones?

stormdragon.4932:

Regardless of if you think the game is on the right track or not, no one in their right mind can deny that they threw away the so called manifesto. When I first saw it I knew that would be the thing that would haunt them. It is really the equivalent of "John Romero is going to make you his <Expletive> "

Setting fire to the manifesto, bragging about their amazing voice acting and ending up with cringe-worthy results, and deviating so far from the original title with no apparent reason other than to be different is coming home to roost despite the hype train that still hasn’t stopped. I just don’t see it ending well until they step back and acquire a bit of humility and honest prospective about their product..

I personally dont think they threw away the manifesto only that in order to make a game that appeals to a wide range of people they implemented the manifesto in a way most people cannot relate to.

Like grind for example… what people expected was stuff is easy to get quickly what they did instead is you can play whatever you choose but it takes a long time to get to the reward. They’re both a way to handle grind just not what people were hoping for that however doesnt mean they burned the manifesto.

Anet measures success by how much income is generated per content. Come on guys. Did you think it’s really about fun and bug free and content with actual depth? Lol.

morrolan.9608:

Galen Grey.4709:

Wildstar has a lot going for it and I will probably check it out myselkittenda nice that its scifi and the humor seems awesome.

But seriously I am confused how people annoyed with Gw2 for introducing a single tier with a promise that others arent going to be introduced for years to come if ever would think thats unacceptable and say they’re switching over to a game that has a gear treadmill part of its core design.

Cause Carbine are being upfront about their intentions. Cause BiS equipment in Wowish games is actually easier to obtain than ascended items in GW2. Cause the game design is driven by endgame content.

And here is the big question, why is BiS equipment in Wowish games easier to obtain than ascended items in Gw2?

I believe it’s because of the reward system that Anet implemented. No mob tagging/stealing, no need/greed rolls in parties, very few restrictions to loot drops (other than the obvious RNG and some fine/rare materials), which means even a lowly dredge in Fotm can drop a Dusk or any other precursor…

This creates a solo player-friendly system, a casual friendly system, there is no extra drama over loot distribution (like what the often used DKP systems in some Raiding guilds are causing). In the end though, to compensate with the easy/friendly/casual loot system they had to add an offensive RNG system with extremely low chances of getting anything of some worth. A system that is also punishing really organised guilds groups or simply groups of friends playing together (for example, why can’t we “trade” Fractal Skins/Rings between us while we are still in the party? -party bound gear can easily solve this)

And then we have encounters like the revamped Tequatl. I’m sure, judging by the difficulty of the encounter, everyone would love to have some Ascended or at least Exotic quality rewards for beating him, however since so many players can fight him at once it would be an “overkill” to give superb drops to everyone all the time. In other MMORPGs raid bosses drop a fixed amount of superb raid quality gear (or tokens to get it), then it’s up to the team to either roll, or offer a more complex system to decide who will get the item, this allows the encounter to be both rewarding (for the team as a whole) but also requires the players to do the encounter numerous times so everyone is geared up. With the free-for-all loot of Guild Wars 2 we don’t have any of this, just pure luck…

maddoctor.2738:

morrolan.9608:

Galen Grey.4709:

Wildstar has a lot going for it and I will probably check it out myselkittenda nice that its scifi and the humor seems awesome.

But seriously I am confused how people annoyed with Gw2 for introducing a single tier with a promise that others arent going to be introduced for years to come if ever would think thats unacceptable and say they’re switching over to a game that has a gear treadmill part of its core design.

Cause Carbine are being upfront about their intentions. Cause BiS equipment in Wowish games is actually easier to obtain than ascended items in GW2. Cause the game design is driven by endgame content.

And here is the big question, why is BiS equipment in Wowish games easier to obtain than ascended items in Gw2?

I believe it’s because of the reward system that Anet implemented. No mob tagging/stealing, no need/greed rolls in parties, very few restrictions to loot drops (other than the obvious RNG and some fine/rare materials), which means even a lowly dredge in Fotm can drop a Dusk or any other precursor…

This creates a solo player-friendly system, a casual friendly system, there is no extra drama over loot distribution (like what the often used DKP systems in some Raiding guilds are causing). In the end though, to compensate with the easy/friendly/casual loot system they had to add an offensive RNG system with extremely low chances of getting anything of some worth. A system that is also punishing really organised guilds groups or simply groups of friends playing together (for example, why can’t we “trade” Fractal Skins/Rings between us while we are still in the party? -party bound gear can easily solve this)

And then we have encounters like the revamped Tequatl. I’m sure, judging by the difficulty of the encounter, everyone would love to have some Ascended or at least Exotic quality rewards for beating him, however since so many players can fight him at once it would be an “overkill” to give superb drops to everyone all the time. In other MMORPGs raid bosses drop a fixed amount of superb raid quality gear (or tokens to get it), then it’s up to the team to either roll, or offer a more complex system to decide who will get the item, this allows the encounter to be both rewarding (for the team as a whole) but also requires the players to do the encounter numerous times so everyone is geared up. With the free-for-all loot of Guild Wars 2 we don’t have any of this, just pure luck…

Thing is, since they’re account bound, it really shouldn’t matter but yeah, Anet doesn’t like giving out freebies.

TooBz.3065:

Galen Grey.4709:

@draco

exploration, jumping puzzles and vistas might be inconsequential nonsense to you, its definitely not content that doesnt exist. Like I said, if you decided to skip content you’re entirely free to do so but if you’re accusing Anet of not creating not much content because you skipped most of it then you’re not being honest.

Normally I agree with almost everything you say. However, (there’s always a however in these posts isn’t there?). In this case I want to point out that whenever I complain about ascended gear and the grind someone invariably posts that it’s not necessary to play the game, I don’t have to do it, and I can ignore it.

If ignoring content you don’t like is fine for grindy stuff, it should also be acceptable for ridiculously repetitive stuff. I’m not a game designer and I know building games is difficult but so many of the dynamic events / hearts are substantially carbon copies of one another.

I know that for most games this is true. The same game loop repeats over and over gain, but a) most games ask for <40 hours of my time, not thousands, and b) they hide the repetition a little better.

I whole heartly agree. I wasnt trying to tell draco that he had to play all the content there is to play. I was just saying its not fair to say the game has little content just because one decides to skip it.

As for dynamic events, dynamic events are stories… what sets them apart is the story. In every game you’re going to be doing the same 3 actions basically. Kill something, interact with something go to point X. Every quest, dynamic event, jumping puzzle whatever in any game will boil down to those 3 actions. What makes one different then the other is the package.

simply put, if you’re escorting a dolyak, you’re escorting a dolyak, remove the story and the events will be identical, walk along side the smelly beast while killing stuff that attacks you. In essence it doesnt matter if thats pirates, raptors or killer bees. In one instance however you’re in a story were a monastery is trying to make a living selling ale off to the lion guard. In another its about a lost artifact and the danger it represents if the fiend within is unleashed on the world. The actual event, the part you play that is, is merely a chore that will primarily reward you with story as the dynamic event chain unfolds. Thats true of any game however is it not?

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

RUSerious?

My grandfather had a vineyard but didnt drink any wine AT ALL.

He pretty much gave all 1000-1500 l of wine he made away.

In WoW people farmed bosses for mini’s and never use them. Whats your point here? There is still the reward. Yes I am serious.

Did they gave away or destroyed their minis when they got them? And then grind away for another one?

They didnt grind because they enjoyed grinding. They wanted the mini.

You have problem with understanding intrisic/extrinsic values.

I think thinks are more mixed then you think. I never said the reward was the only reason but an important part of it. Making whine it fun but is caring for the plants just as much fun? When somebody makes whine there are multiple thinks he does for that and the parts that are ‘less’ fun and you would not just do for nothing become more fun because of the reward.

But anyway believe it or not. I did do some thinks in other games just to get one of those mini’s and I had fun doing it. But doing it without the reward would make it not fun at all.

TooBz.3065:

Galen Grey.4709:

MikaHR.1978:

Draco.2806:

That all is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

If players are running a champ train twelve hours a day, it’s ArenaNet’s fault. If they’re farming Orr, ArenaNet’s fault. Players go where the game tells them to go, that’s simply the nature of any game. If having fun in the game requires playing against the game, that is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

Yup, i really love how it eventually turns “but its player’s fault”

No it isnt, unless your premise is that somehow ANet doesnt have control over their game.

But its all water under the bridge now, they implemented gear treadmill, very bad gear treadmill which most other games do much much better, and decided to follow WoW and its clones with game that want even designed for it. It certanly isnt what they advertised back at launch.

Yes, if you give freedom to players you loose control of it yourself. The game was designed so that anyone can play the game anyway they wish. At launch absolutely everything in game (except for the dungeon skins) could be acquired playing anywhere in the game. Free to play anywhere in the game also means you’re free to farm orr non stop 24/7.

A lot of the issues people have with Gw2 come because of too much freedom. Seems player have trouble enjoying themselves without being forced in a particular play style they are just incapable of choosing it for themselves.

Except that the reward system is hopelessly screwed up. It’s not any more or less challenging to kill a trash mob alone than it is to kill champions in a champion farm, but champion farming gives a much higher reward. It’s like ANet is paying us to do stuff we don’t otherwise want to do.

I think that champion rewards need to be balanced with the rest of the content. Sure there should be an upside to doing it, but there shouldn’t be such an upside that every feels like they have to champion farm.

.

was that part of the initial design however? not really, at launch killing a champion wasnt that much more profitable then killing a regular mob. Whats happening now is Arenanet reacting to player choices. Players want to farm, nothing Arenanet can do about that without killing the game completely. At launch it was Orr, then it Was FotM after that it was CoF P1 … all these have an issue in that they’re all in one specfic location and thus they focus players in specific areas in the game, by making champions more profitable then anything else Arenanet know that players are now going to farm them but at least there is the advantage that champions are all over the place thus spreading players around. Its not ideal it still very likely that no one is going to leave the champion train to help you out with an event if you’re in trouble but at least now an them you might find someone willing to help out perhaps while taking a break from repeating the same stuff over and over again.

MikaHR.1978:

TooBz.3065:

Galen Grey.4709:

MikaHR.1978:

Draco.2806:

That all is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

If players are running a champ train twelve hours a day, it’s ArenaNet’s fault. If they’re farming Orr, ArenaNet’s fault. Players go where the game tells them to go, that’s simply the nature of any game. If having fun in the game requires playing against the game, that is definitely ArenaNet’s fault.

Yup, i really love how it eventually turns “but its player’s fault”

No it isnt, unless your premise is that somehow ANet doesnt have control over their game.

But its all water under the bridge now, they implemented gear treadmill, very bad gear treadmill which most other games do much much better, and decided to follow WoW and its clones with game that want even designed for it. It certanly isnt what they advertised back at launch.

Yes, if you give freedom to players you loose control of it yourself. The game was designed so that anyone can play the game anyway they wish. At launch absolutely everything in game (except for the dungeon skins) could be acquired playing anywhere in the game. Free to play anywhere in the game also means you’re free to farm orr non stop 24/7.

A lot of the issues people have with Gw2 come because of too much freedom. Seems player have trouble enjoying themselves without being forced in a particular play style they are just incapable of choosing it for themselves.

Except that the reward system is hopelessly screwed up. It’s not any more or less challenging to kill a trash mob alone than it is to kill champions in a champion farm, but champion farming gives a much higher reward. It’s like ANet is paying us to do stuff we don’t otherwise want to do.

I think that champion rewards need to be balanced with the rest of the content. Sure there should be an upside to doing it, but there shouldn’t be such an upside that every feels like they have to champion farm.

.

Dont worry, his post is pretty ridiculous. ANet made the game the way they made it, it pretty much said “go there farm that or get nothing at all” and then comes Galen along talking about freedom rofl

How long it took them to even make possible to get on level/rare/exotic loot drops on a bit lower level zones?

who said the game is loot driven, its actually quite the opposite. doing events in a lvl 2 zone at max level will give you 1s + something. and about 2s in loot 8 events and you can buy whatever rare you choose… 5 events if you craft it yourself. 60 events and you can buy any exotic you want… 30 if you craft it yourself. All thats doing just events, never mind money you an make gathering / salvaging / and getting good drops like rare dyes and stuff. Though I guess I am just being ridiculous it wasnt feasible to play in lower level zones at all.

Galen Grey.4709:

stormdragon.4932:

Regardless of if you think the game is on the right track or not, no one in their right mind can deny that they threw away the so called manifesto. When I first saw it I knew that would be the thing that would haunt them. It is really the equivalent of "John Romero is going to make you his <Expletive> "

Setting fire to the manifesto, bragging about their amazing voice acting and ending up with cringe-worthy results, and deviating so far from the original title with no apparent reason other than to be different is coming home to roost despite the hype train that still hasn’t stopped. I just don’t see it ending well until they step back and acquire a bit of humility and honest prospective about their product..

I personally dont think they threw away the manifesto only that in order to make a game that appeals to a wide range of people they implemented the manifesto in a way most people cannot relate to.

Like grind for example… what people expected was stuff is easy to get quickly what they did instead is you can play whatever you choose but it takes a long time to get to the reward. They’re both a way to handle grind just not what people were hoping for that however doesnt mean they burned the manifesto.

Just have to disagree, when they say “I swung a sword I swung it again..we just don’t want players to grind”…then they put in a grind, that is setting fire to the maifesto. When Ree Soesbee says that: “In other MMO’s everyone is doing the same thing you doing the same boss, you kill him and it spawns ten minutes later and that won’t happen in GW2” and yet it does that is setting fire to the manifesto.

I honestly am not understanding why there isn’t more outrage about this…lets face it if this was a EA game people would be making personal threats against the devs, because Anet more or less lied and all they do now is hype with this “fastest selling game eva!” silliness.

The game sold well because of their previous game, not because GW2 is a universe of awesomeness. I think that Anet has lost a tremendous amount of trust..they secretly admit it and are now scrambling to please their cruel taskmasters (NCsoft) because they know their publisher has no problem gutting them…what they are missing is in the long run the only way to keep that from happening is making the fans happy which means staying true to their word. They think that they can give the finger to their fans a grab a new crop of grindaholics…that is going to blow up in their face.

maddoctor.2738:

morrolan.9608:

Galen Grey.4709:

Wildstar has a lot going for it and I will probably check it out myselkittenda nice that its scifi and the humor seems awesome.

But seriously I am confused how people annoyed with Gw2 for introducing a single tier with a promise that others arent going to be introduced for years to come if ever would think thats unacceptable and say they’re switching over to a game that has a gear treadmill part of its core design.

Cause Carbine are being upfront about their intentions. Cause BiS equipment in Wowish games is actually easier to obtain than ascended items in GW2. Cause the game design is driven by endgame content.

And here is the big question, why is BiS equipment in Wowish games easier to obtain than ascended items in Gw2?
snip..

Not just that but also the gear Treadmill. While many of us dont want it, its undeniable that some players dont want anything else. By having Ascended gear take a long time to acquire and by making it a low power curve it will last for years as people gear up their alts.

in games like WoW they dont need to have it last for years, they just need it last for months since they’ll just add another tier once its shelf life as a goal expires.

morrolan.9608:

Galen Grey.4709:

Wildstar has a lot going for it and I will probably check it out myselkittenda nice that its scifi and the humor seems awesome.

But seriously I am confused how people annoyed with Gw2 for introducing a single tier with a promise that others arent going to be introduced for years to come if ever would think thats unacceptable and say they’re switching over to a game that has a gear treadmill part of its core design.

Cause Carbine are being upfront about their intentions. Cause BiS equipment in Wowish games is actually easier to obtain than ascended items in GW2. Cause the game design is driven by endgame content.

How do you know Carbine is being honest if the game isn’t out yet? What if two months into the game they change something? Will you go rage on their forums?

Seriously people should have learned by now not to make comments about games that aren’t even out yet.

You do remember stuff they said about SWToR right? lol

How ANet measures fun/success:

-No one does the ruins in borderlands
-So they introduce a daily to capture 5 of them, 2 weeks since the patch that brought them in.

What a joke.

Galen Grey.4709:

dcypher.2590:

Draco.2806:

Galen Grey.4709:

What happened is players were greedy…

What happened is that the game ended up having a pitiful amount of content for an MMO, most of it repetitive and not fun, with most rewarding kind being locked to absurd by-the-numbers grind in one-two high-level zones (one of which is terrible).

People never asked to be subjected to this barren wasteland like a stuck record. They asked for it to be improved, because there was room for improvement. But ANet seemingly didn’t listen. Since the end-game wasn’t enjoyable enough, many people who leveled out to 80 simply up and left.

Why you’re blaming players for ANet’s own failings to deliver on its own promise of level-agnostic content, horizontal progression, and hordes of content is beyond me.

Galen Grey.4709:

5 laurels, 20 laurels, 35 laurels or even 50 laurels is still something you earn by just playing the game.

This kind of logic as well.

30 days worth of quests for one of five trinkets? Even WoW would blush at this kind of nonsensical grind.

Honestly I think a huge part of it is how god awful the loot system in GW2 is. For some reason this mmo doesn’t have set loot tables, so people go to Orr and farm because they get everything all in the same place and virtually nothing from different areas. The champion runs finally gave a chance to get a specific skin from the boxes but the chance is so small even that is hardly worth wasting time on.

I feel people like games even if they have a gear grind like wow, swtor, rift, and soon to be wildstar because the loot systems make sense. This boss drops this stuff..go fight him for it. These other bosses drop this other stuff go fight him for it. In GW2 it’s kinda like fighting bosses and baddies and getting a pile of junk, like here ya go.

Yes and that was done on purpose to leave people free to play as they wish. No specific drops from specific mobs meant you didnt have to farm that mob to get that drop. They hoped rewards wouldnt be that important to people, content would be… That was a great idea which unfortunately didnt work out. People want their rewards and are not content unless those rewards feel valuable.

I mean this is just common sense to me, and I’m not into business design or anything of that sort, so I can’t see how it escaped their discussion that people would do this. Who knows, really. It isn’t at all innovative to me. I can’t assume they were sitting around the design table saying ‘hey lets go back to the days where people didn’t play for reward’. Seems very counterproductive in today’s market.

stormdragon.4932:

Just have to disagree, when they say “I swung a sword I swung it again..we just don’t want players to grind”…then they put in a grind, that is setting fire to the maifesto. When Ree Soesbee says that: “In other MMO’s everyone is doing the same thing you doing the same boss, you kill him and it spawns ten minutes later and that won’t happen in GW2” and yet it does that is setting fire to the manifesto.

I honestly am not understanding why there isn’t more outrage about this…lets face it if this was a EA game people would be making personal threats against the devs, because Anet more or less lied and all they do now is hype with this “fastest selling game eva!” silliness.

The game sold well because of their previous game, not because GW2 is a universe of awesomeness. I think that Anet has lost a tremendous amount of trust..they secretly admit it and are now scrambling to please their cruel taskmasters (NCsoft) because they know their publisher has no problem gutting them…what they are missing is in the long run the only way to keep that from happening is making the fans happy which means staying true to their word. They think that they can give the finger to their fans a grab a new crop of grindaholics…that is going to blow up in their face.

Thats the thing though, they didnt do grindy stuff at all. Its all about perception.

Take ascended trinkets, 35 laurels, means 35 dailies means among other things 1750 critter kills (going with the kill 50 mobs daily)
it all depends how you look at it. if you look at it as 1750 kill then yeah it looks extremely grindy I agree. but tell me how many times do you play the game and in a single day not kill 50 mobs? answer is most likely nearly never.

Now some players threat dailies like a check list, they log on and get it over with first thing and they rightly find it grindy. But ironically in my opinion the daily system is actually a system designed specifically to avoid grind althoughter. you log in, play what you want to play which in turn will get the daily done or so close to done that 2 mins – 5 mins max will get the rest done easily.

Regarding what Ree said, Arenanet clarified that Colin was talking about the open world while Ree was talking about the personal story. However I Agree with you in that it was confusing.

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

RUSerious?

My grandfather had a vineyard but didnt drink any wine AT ALL.

He pretty much gave all 1000-1500 l of wine he made away.

In WoW people farmed bosses for mini’s and never use them. Whats your point here? There is still the reward. Yes I am serious.

Did they gave away or destroyed their minis when they got them? And then grind away for another one?

They didnt grind because they enjoyed grinding. They wanted the mini.

You have problem with understanding intrisic/extrinsic values.

I think thinks are more mixed then you think. I never said the reward was the only reason but an important part of it. Making whine it fun but is caring for the plants just as much fun? When somebody makes whine there are multiple thinks he does for that and the parts that are ‘less’ fun and you would not just do for nothing become more fun because of the reward.

But anyway believe it or not. I did do some thinks in other games just to get one of those mini’s and I had fun doing it. But doing it without the reward would make it not fun at all.

lol

you either have fun doing something or you dont.

Getting pin at the end doesnt suddenly make something not fun fun. Those are mutually exclusive.

So you did it for the reward and if theres no reward you wont do it. So basically you will do anything no matter how boring/tedious is just to get the reward AND you will skip something fun just because theres no reward at the end.

You might want to check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

Devata.6589:

Uruz Six.6594:

morrolan.9608:

Cause Carbine are being upfront about their intentions. Cause BiS equipment in Wowish games is actually easier to obtain than ascended items in GW2. Cause the game design is driven by endgame content.

Anet is big fat poopy heads for failing to be different enough, yet Carbine can outright say they’re re-making vanilla WoW and that makes them better.

That’s ‘government out of my medicare’ levels of cognitive dissonance there, but then again this thread pretty much went full of it as soon as Lanfear and Indigo left.

Just for the record. I think Wildstar is a bad example and not because I don’t like what I see there (WoW plus aliens and the the humor.. I like humor but don’t think it works very well in an MMO.. It does work in the trailers!) but because it’s not released yet. Back in the day people would use Anet to show as a good example and if it was to point towards GW1 that was fair but it was also to point towards the then not yet existing GW2.

You have no idea what Carbine will do even if you like what you are seeing now so I would suggest taking another example

Wildstar works as a decent counter example to me because if they do what they say, the gear system will have more of what I don’t like about gw2 than gw2; however, I still prefer it and will probably play it.

Why? because I know what I’m getting into. If I play WS I will never create more than 1 character. I will pick a class / race / etc. and stick with that 1 toon for as long as I play the game.

Here, by the time VP was introduced I already had a number of different characters and was attached to each of them.

I think even the ascended grind is manageable iff I had only 1 character 1 played.

dcypher.2590:

Galen Grey.4709:

dcypher.2590:

Draco.2806:

Galen Grey.4709:

What happened is players were greedy…

What happened is that the game ended up having a pitiful amount of content for an MMO, most of it repetitive and not fun, with most rewarding kind being locked to absurd by-the-numbers grind in one-two high-level zones (one of which is terrible).

People never asked to be subjected to this barren wasteland like a stuck record. They asked for it to be improved, because there was room for improvement. But ANet seemingly didn’t listen. Since the end-game wasn’t enjoyable enough, many people who leveled out to 80 simply up and left.

Why you’re blaming players for ANet’s own failings to deliver on its own promise of level-agnostic content, horizontal progression, and hordes of content is beyond me.

Galen Grey.4709:

5 laurels, 20 laurels, 35 laurels or even 50 laurels is still something you earn by just playing the game.

This kind of logic as well.

30 days worth of quests for one of five trinkets? Even WoW would blush at this kind of nonsensical grind.

Honestly I think a huge part of it is how god awful the loot system in GW2 is. For some reason this mmo doesn’t have set loot tables, so people go to Orr and farm because they get everything all in the same place and virtually nothing from different areas. The champion runs finally gave a chance to get a specific skin from the boxes but the chance is so small even that is hardly worth wasting time on.

I feel people like games even if they have a gear grind like wow, swtor, rift, and soon to be wildstar because the loot systems make sense. This boss drops this stuff..go fight him for it. These other bosses drop this other stuff go fight him for it. In GW2 it’s kinda like fighting bosses and baddies and getting a pile of junk, like here ya go.

Yes and that was done on purpose to leave people free to play as they wish. No specific drops from specific mobs meant you didnt have to farm that mob to get that drop. They hoped rewards wouldnt be that important to people, content would be… That was a great idea which unfortunately didnt work out. People want their rewards and are not content unless those rewards feel valuable.

I mean this is just common sense to me, and I’m not into business design or anything of that sort, so I can’t see how it escaped their discussion that people would do this. Who knows, really. It isn’t at all innovative to me. I can’t assume they were sitting around the design table saying ‘hey lets go back to the days where people didn’t play for reward’. Seems very counterproductive in today’s market.

Is it really? I mean I for one love Gw2 because rewards dont drive gameplay like they do in other games. I’ve seen others argue how the game is much more enjoyable if you dont make it about rewards so I am sure I am not unique in this opinion.

TooBz.3065:

Wildstar works as a decent counter example to me because if they do what they say, the gear system will have more of what I don’t like about gw2 than gw2; however, I still prefer it and will probably play it.

Why? because I know what I’m getting into. If I play WS I will never create more than 1 character. I will pick a class / race / etc. and stick with that 1 toon for as long as I play the game.

Here, by the time VP was introduced I already had a number of different characters and was attached to each of them.

I think even the ascended grind is manageable iff I had only 1 character 1 played.

are you really sure? I mean the same reason to create an alt exist in WS as well. In WS you’ll never have BiS… so if you’re not happy with having 2nd best in Gw2, how can you be sure you will be happy in WS? I mean okey, I did say the gear system will have more stuff you dont like then gear system in Gw2 but still prefer it, thats a bit confusing can you perhaps share your thoughts on that one… You think you will be happy with it or simply perhaps find the ways to acquire gear more fun.. what makes something worst a better option?

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

RUSerious?

My grandfather had a vineyard but didnt drink any wine AT ALL.

He pretty much gave all 1000-1500 l of wine he made away.

In WoW people farmed bosses for mini’s and never use them. Whats your point here? There is still the reward. Yes I am serious.

Did they gave away or destroyed their minis when they got them? And then grind away for another one?

They didnt grind because they enjoyed grinding. They wanted the mini.

You have problem with understanding intrisic/extrinsic values.

I think thinks are more mixed then you think. I never said the reward was the only reason but an important part of it. Making whine it fun but is caring for the plants just as much fun? When somebody makes whine there are multiple thinks he does for that and the parts that are ‘less’ fun and you would not just do for nothing become more fun because of the reward.

But anyway believe it or not. I did do some thinks in other games just to get one of those mini’s and I had fun doing it. But doing it without the reward would make it not fun at all.

lol

you either have fun doing something or you dont.

Getting pin at the end doesnt suddenly make something not fun fun. Those are mutually exclusive.

So you did it for the reward and if theres no reward you wont do it. So basically you will do anything no matter how boring/tedious is just to get the reward AND you will skip something fun just because theres no reward at the end.

You might want to check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

“So basically you will do anything no matter how boring/tedious is just to get the reward”. No like I said it is a mix..

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

RUSerious?

My grandfather had a vineyard but didnt drink any wine AT ALL.

He pretty much gave all 1000-1500 l of wine he made away.

In WoW people farmed bosses for mini’s and never use them. Whats your point here? There is still the reward. Yes I am serious.

Did they gave away or destroyed their minis when they got them? And then grind away for another one?

They didnt grind because they enjoyed grinding. They wanted the mini.

You have problem with understanding intrisic/extrinsic values.

I think thinks are more mixed then you think. I never said the reward was the only reason but an important part of it. Making whine it fun but is caring for the plants just as much fun? When somebody makes whine there are multiple thinks he does for that and the parts that are ‘less’ fun and you would not just do for nothing become more fun because of the reward.

But anyway believe it or not. I did do some thinks in other games just to get one of those mini’s and I had fun doing it. But doing it without the reward would make it not fun at all.

lol

you either have fun doing something or you dont.

Getting pin at the end doesnt suddenly make something not fun fun. Those are mutually exclusive.

So you did it for the reward and if theres no reward you wont do it. So basically you will do anything no matter how boring/tedious is just to get the reward AND you will skip something fun just because theres no reward at the end.

You might want to check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

“So basically you will do anything”. No like I said it is a mix..

No, you said “But doing it without the reward would make it not fun at all.”

Galen Grey.4709:

TooBz.3065:

Wildstar works as a decent counter example to me because if they do what they say, the gear system will have more of what I don’t like about gw2 than gw2; however, I still prefer it and will probably play it.

Why? because I know what I’m getting into. If I play WS I will never create more than 1 character. I will pick a class / race / etc. and stick with that 1 toon for as long as I play the game.

Here, by the time VP was introduced I already had a number of different characters and was attached to each of them.

I think even the ascended grind is manageable iff I had only 1 character 1 played.

are you really sure? I mean the same reason to create an alt exist in WS as well. In WS you’ll never have BiS… so if you’re not happy with having 2nd best in Gw2, how can you be sure you will be happy in WS? I mean okey, I did say the gear system will have more stuff you dont like then gear system in Gw2 but still prefer it, thats a bit confusing can you perhaps share your thoughts on that one… You think you will be happy with it or simply perhaps find the ways to acquire gear more fun.. what makes something worst a better option?

Of course I’m not sure. It’s speculation. But as a min max kind of guy, I tend to look at systems and decide how to get the most out of it.

For WS, they are up front saying BIS gear is not going to be available, you can’t maximize, the best you can do is come close. Cool, I can work with that. 1 toon only.

That’s not what GW2 did. They said, BIS gear is easy. Cool, I enjoy a variety of game play I’ll create multiple toons to get the most out of the game. Hit 80 and try something else. But then comes VP. Now, I have a new system, where, as a min maxer, the “right” thing to do is focus on 1 toon. But I can’t. I’m already invested in all of them. Also in GW2 BIS is obtainable, it’s just really really grindy.

Sometimes, I think the smartest thing for me to do is to salvage all the gear off my alts and delete them. Pull off the band-aid quick.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong. We won’t know until the game launches and I try it out.

Also, on a related note: talking about the grind, GW2 is designed around the TP. The idea is that you don’t have to do stuff you don’t like, you do the stuff you do like and get what you need from the TP. This is fine in theory, however, ANet rewards boring things.

When I look at champ farming, it’s 4-6g / hour. Really good rewards vs the rest of the game (which is why everyone farms it). But to me, it’s $2 an hour for doing something I don’t enjoy. So I decide I’m not farming for $2. But then, let’s say, I want to build an ascended item.

I’ve been running around WvW, PvP, map completion, or whatever doing what I like, but making < 1g / hour (especially since I now salvage greens / blues / rares). So I have no gold. That’s ok. I made a decision that I wouldn’t farm for $2 / hour. I’d rather buy gems. Support ANet and what not. But then I go to buy games and realize that what I want isn’t worth the cash I’d have to spend. (Note: I’ve spend well over the amount I’d pay for a normal subscription fee, so this isn’t just being cheap.)

So there are weird opportunity cost things going on for me. It’s not worth my time to farm for gold, but it’s not worth the money to buy gold with cash. Maybe I should take a break. I dunno.

Im not sure about that. You can raid for days and weeks on end in WoW and not see the gear you want and when it finally shows up, someone else wins the roll and get it instead.

The problem is, in a game focused around endgame content and gear treadmills, if the BiS gear is really easy to get, what are you going to do once you get it? Raid more and see how many sets you can collect?

Also, with Ascended gear, getting the mats itself isn’t the problem, the game chucks asc mats at you like as if they’re free samples. It’s getting 500 craft that’s the problem. But once you get 500 on one toon, your whole account is set.

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Beldin.5498:

My theory now is also that we next get instanced raiding because so much people now asked for it because of Tequatl, even since before very much people were strictly against that. But now ANet could say : hey .. you asked for that.

Well, Mike Z, Colin, and Chris W have said that the GW2 raiding would not be like traditional raiding. So Tequatl may have been anet’s answer to the raid request (no on has said definitively), which, for people requesting raiding, should still be very doable for them. They just get a couple of people with commander tags, and squad up to take him on.

We may get instanced raiding, they may give in to it if people holler loudly, but I don’t think so at this point. Colin has stated that they don’t want to do a whole lot of instanced content, because of how it divides the player base. (Thus why we’ve been told no HM for dungeons) Honestly, I like the Tequatl changes (mind you, I still aint beat him). I’m looking forward to them making such changes to all of the world bosses. But as for not wanted to do instancing… could always change. Just give me my heroes back, and I’ll be perfectly fine with it.

If they don’t want instances they should not have made every map an instance and if they don’t want to divide the playerbase they should have work with fractions and put WvW in the open world as part of that and no fractions don’t divide the player-base. Two people fighting each other are playing together.

They seem to get the whole instance part completely wrong. What should not be instanced is instanced and what should be instanced is open. A raid in an instance does not divide up the playerbase more then overflows do but it get people to really play together work on tactics. Something that does work way less with a open world boss. Well open map boss I should say as GW2 as not something as an open world.

It was never said that they didn’t want any instancing. More along the lines of they don’t desire more of it necessarily. As I’ve said in other posts, it’s a balancing act, and not one that they have perfected yet.

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

MikaHR.1978:

Devata.6589:

It’s like people who have a vegetable garden. They can get there food in the store but most do it because they think it’s fun.. then again they plant vegetable plants because they like the reward (vegetables) not perse the planting itself. Thats becomes fun because of the reward.

Wrong, most people who have hobby gardens/orchards/vineyards do it because they enjoy growing it and what they get out of it is just a bonus. They surely are not focused on max yield/hectar or meter square (or w/e) or that industrial production gets 3/4 times more yield that they do. In the end they give lot (in some cases most)of it away or merely for simbolic price.

Rewards in this case are almost completely intrisic and come out of enjoyment of the process. And yes, they repeat it from year to year no matter the “rewards” they get out of it.

Then why don’t they plant ugly plants but always nice flowers or vegetables? It’s that reward part that is helping to make the planting itself fun. They would most likely not be very willing to do the same if they where only allowed to plant ugly and useless plants. Think about it.

RUSerious?

My grandfather had a vineyard but didnt drink any wine AT ALL.

He pretty much gave all 1000-1500 l of wine he made away.

In WoW people farmed bosses for mini’s and never use them. Whats your point here? There is still the reward. Yes I am serious.

Did they gave away or destroyed their minis when they got them? And then grind away for another one?

They didnt grind because they enjoyed grinding. They wanted the mini.

You have problem with understanding intrisic/extrinsic values.

I think thinks are more mixed then you think. I never said the reward was the only reason but an important part of it. Making whine it fun but is caring for the plants just as much fun? When somebody makes whine there are multiple thinks he does for that and the parts that are ‘less’ fun and you would not just do for nothing become more fun because of the reward.

But anyway believe it or not. I did do some thinks in other games just to get one of those mini’s and I had fun doing it. But doing it without the reward would make it not fun at all.

lol

you either have fun doing something or you dont.

Getting pin at the end doesnt suddenly make something not fun fun. Those are mutually exclusive.

So you did it for the reward and if theres no reward you wont do it. So basically you will do anything no matter how boring/tedious is just to get the reward AND you will skip something fun just because theres no reward at the end.

You might want to check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

“So basically you will do anything”. No like I said it is a mix..

No, you said “But doing it without the reward would make it not fun at all.”

That was one example of farming mobs for mini’s yes. If a game would be filled with that it would be bad, in that example it wasn’t as the game was not filled with it. I gave that specific example to show the power of reward. In general… so most content should be a good mix of reward and activity.

One small addition, I was content doing what I liked and not getting extrinsic rewards for it until they added the new gear tier. Now I need the rewards if I want to get the stuff.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Im not sure about that. You can raid for days and weeks on end in WoW and not see the gear you want and when it finally shows up, someone else wins the roll and get it instead.

The problem is, in a game focused around endgame content and gear treadmills, if the BiS gear is really easy to get, what are you going to do once you get it? Raid more and see how many sets you can collect?

Also, with Ascended gear, getting the mats itself isn’t the problem, the game chucks asc mats at you like as if they’re free samples. It’s getting 500 craft that’s the problem. But once you get 500 on one toon, your whole account is set.

I can answer what you can do.. as I never care that much about BiS armor.

You can defeat very hard dungeons with friend, attack main city’s of the other fraction, you can collect mini’s (if that is fun in a game!), you can collect mounts, you can level your craft (if that is fun in a game), as ranger you can go search for rear pets (if that is fun in a game), you can work on your house or the guild house.

That where thinks I did a lot in other MMO’s but those thinks are simply not fun in GW2. Now there are some substitute like jumping puzzles, WvW and guild-missions but as you can see, if you design an mmo good there is a lot to do.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Beldin.5498:

My theory now is also that we next get instanced raiding because so much people now asked for it because of Tequatl, even since before very much people were strictly against that. But now ANet could say : hey .. you asked for that.

Well, Mike Z, Colin, and Chris W have said that the GW2 raiding would not be like traditional raiding. So Tequatl may have been anet’s answer to the raid request (no on has said definitively), which, for people requesting raiding, should still be very doable for them. They just get a couple of people with commander tags, and squad up to take him on.

We may get instanced raiding, they may give in to it if people holler loudly, but I don’t think so at this point. Colin has stated that they don’t want to do a whole lot of instanced content, because of how it divides the player base. (Thus why we’ve been told no HM for dungeons) Honestly, I like the Tequatl changes (mind you, I still aint beat him). I’m looking forward to them making such changes to all of the world bosses. But as for not wanted to do instancing… could always change. Just give me my heroes back, and I’ll be perfectly fine with it.

If they don’t want instances they should not have made every map an instance and if they don’t want to divide the playerbase they should have work with fractions and put WvW in the open world as part of that and no fractions don’t divide the player-base. Two people fighting each other are playing together.

They seem to get the whole instance part completely wrong. What should not be instanced is instanced and what should be instanced is open. A raid in an instance does not divide up the playerbase more then overflows do but it get people to really play together work on tactics. Something that does work way less with a open world boss. Well open map boss I should say as GW2 as not something as an open world.

It was never said that they didn’t want any instancing. More along the lines of they don’t desire more of it necessarily. As I’ve said in other posts, it’s a balancing act, and not one that they have perfected yet.

My point there was more that they got that part completely wrong. What should be instanced is not. Every map is instance so no open world but there are no raid instances.

Chaotic Storm.2815:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Anet are fools for turning GW2 into a traditional MMO. It just means that when the next newer, and thus inevitably shinier, MMO comes out, people will leave in droves because there’d be nothing unique about GW2.

sad part is there already a number of players eyeing several MMO releases this year. Myself I got my eyes on Wildstar.

From what I saw on Wildstar at PAX it looks pretty good, too bad it’s another NCsoft funded game. They haven’t decided their payment method afaik but if it’s FTP/BTP we all know where the production value will go giving what happened to the Guild Wars franchise.

Galen Grey.4709:

Smith.1826:

Galen Grey.4709:

BlueZone.4236:

Galen Grey.4709:

People just have a way too ridged view of how things have to be done.

Take ascended trinkets, all it takes is 20 laurels to get that so at most that’s 20 dailies though it can be as low as 15.

I like to do DE? play 20 days of them and I can get an ascended trinket.
I like to sPvP, same thing
I like to do dungeons? like wise

So in summary, your suggestion is to farm the existing content.
I already figured that out, but thanks anyway.

No, my suggestion is to play the game like dailies dont even exist, you’ll complete them anyway.

Well, how long would all of that content last until you have to start repeating it? When it comes down to having to repeat it, in what way does it vary, if at all?

I feel like that was more in-line with what BlueZone was highlighting, and it doesn’t just apply to dailies. Having to repeat content can be synonymous with having to “grind” it.

Its hard to say, I personally been playing over 1100 hours and didnt do everything yet but of course i repeated a lot of stuff to (ran dungeons multiple times, did some DE more then once, did some fractals etc…) At the very start when events happened way too often before of too many people in the same zone it took me a bout 20 hours to finish of a zone with practically no repeat of content. hence I would say you can get about 400 hours of no repeats when you factor in living story that goes up even more. but lets go with 400hours, repeating stuff again every 400 hours is hardly grinding especially since you choose which of it you want to repeat and you can go about it any order you want.

Being able to choose which order you repeat stuff doesn’t change the fact that you’re repeating the content. I asked if there’s any variety in the content you repeat that keeps it “fresh” and replayable. For the most part I don’t think there is, and simply rewarding the repetition of said content doesn’t change the fact that you’re repeating it.

A great example of this is dungeons. Should you desire a specific set of dungeon armor, you’ll be expected to run each of the dungeon’s paths at least seven times. It’s easy to see why this can be considered “a grind”.

The newest, and perhaps more prevalent, example is the path to an ascended weapon. If a player has no interest in weaponsmithing nor has much gold, they’re potentially looking at a very long road in acquiring one. In addition, much of the current game’s content is well over a year old, so there are people out there who see that the only way to acquire these new pieces of gear is to play through content that they’ve exhausted awhile ago.

Acquiring these rewards may optional, but that doesn’t excuse their implementation.