Guild Wars 2

Hawkian.6580:

7. It strikes me that you have no evidence that the delivery of cosmetic skins through RNG boxes will cause significant numbers of players to quit and affect the game’s chances of success. If you do, please provide it and I will promise to read it in full.

I do not have statistics for this, no. Nor can I get access to the numbers, since quitting is usually a subjective thing. However, you yourself said: “As you apparently note yourself, particularly frustrated players (such as by not getting an RNG skin) are more likely to just quit than keep playing more and more”

When cosmetic items are the only items to earn in game to feel a sense of “progression” on their character after max level, then I would think being unable to obtain them and being disheartened by a bad streak of RNG would find quite a few players to quit the game. There are quite a lot of people who like to feel like they have progressed in a game, and similiar to how beating a boss can progress a story line, getting new gear can feel the same to. It’s been shown before that being unable to progress in a story because you can’t beat a boss can lead people to quit games, so why not the same with unable to get gear if it is the only way to have “progression”?

Hawkian.6580:

8. The question of which skins in the game are the nicest is highly subjective, wouldn’t you say? Personally I find the Sclerite skins to be pretty hideous. The skins I want most are all actually available on the trading post right now, simply at in-game prices I can’t yet afford. Luckily, I’m in no rush.

Skins are all subjective, especially since transmutation stones make it so stats of the gear you get don’t really matter over the cosmetics. But we’ve had more temporary content new skins than we have permanent content. Personally, I’d like to see more permanent content, whether for static sale, or for earning in game. I doubt that a vast number of people would disagree with me when I say that temporary content is not as good as permanent content (with the exception of permanent content that removes old content people want).

Hawkian.6580:

I hope that you take some of these points seriously and reconsider your suspicions of deep malice and greed on ArenaNet’s part. You’ll honestly enjoy the game more without it hanging over your head.

I have explained all my points in response to yours, and taken you seriously upon all accounts. I wish (and hope) that Anet is not that malicious, nor that greedy, but it’s hard to take that stance given what I have said above. As for enjoying the game more, we’ll see — that, for me, is a whole other thing. :P

End.

To be honest, my final goal isn’t a legendary, if it was I’d be playing more WvW for the gift of battle. I’m after Ilya and Ignus Fatuus for my mesmer, and after that, Mjolnir (permenant lightning hammer skin) for my Guardian.
Don’t get me wrong, these are going to be long term goals, they’re not easy to farm for, (especially Mjolnir). But less FUBAR’d than something like say, Bifrost.

Belier.9864:

But we’ve had more temporary content new skins than we have permanent content.

There are currently a total of 65 Greatsword skins.

5 are temporary (Greatsaw, Sclerite, Fused, Super, Wintersday)

Only two can be obtained purely through RNG (Fused, Sclerite)

Only 3 can no longer be obtained after their event (Sclerite, Fused, Wintersday. Super/Greatsaw still exists in the TP)

But this is ignoring the other 60 greatsword skins that already came in-game.

I can understand people focusing on the new things coming out, but lets not pretend like there isn’t a huge variety of (permanent) rewards that already exist in-game.

EDIT: I must comment on your Riot example though. Riot actually does not allow players to convert their in-game currency (IP) into their version of gems (RP). So if players want to buy skins, they must use their real money. GW2 has a Gold -> Gem exchange system. Two completely different business models. You cannot simply say “Riot has no RNG and is financially successful, why can’t Anet do the same?”

Ursan.7846:

Belier.9864:

But we’ve had more temporary content new skins than we have permanent content.

There are currently a total of 65 Greatsword skins.

5 are temporary (Greatsaw, Sclerite, Fused, Super, Wintersday)

Only two can be obtained purely through RNG (Fused, Sclerite)

Only 3 can no longer be obtained after their event (Sclerite, Fused, Wintersday. Super/Greatsaw still exists in the TP)

But this is ignoring the other 60 greatsword skins that already came in-game.

I can understand people focusing on the new things coming out, but lets not pretend like there isn’t a huge variety of (permanent) rewards that already exist in-game.

Will it make you happy if I change my quote to reflect what I actually meant?

There has been more temporary content than permanent content since the initial release of the game. This is the general comment I meant to make. I’m sorry if you caught me out of context there, but I suppose it’s my fault for not clarifying better.

Ursan.7846:

EDIT: I must comment on your Riot example though. Riot actually does not allow players to convert their in-game currency (IP) into their version of gems (RP). So if players want to buy skins, they must use their real money. GW2 has a Gold -> Gem exchange system. Two completely different business models. You cannot simply say “Riot has no RNG and is financially successful, why can’t Anet do the same?”

Riot’s system is different from Guild Wars 2’s system. Riot’s system is a trade system, whereas in the case of GW2, it is a market system as well as a gambling/lottery system (Aka, RNG Boxes). The reason Riot’s system works is because they come out with content they can trade for a direct amount of non-fluctuating money (except in the case of sales, where prices are reduced for a period of time). This money is always static (for the most part) and remains where it is for a long period of time, or at least until the limited time content is no-longer available.

The GW2 system does allow you to buy items from the gem store from in-game currency, however, the price of which fluctuates drastically. Gems used to cost 20s for 100. Now they’re over a gold for 100. This makes it so one day, the cost of something can be low, and the next day, it can be high, and thus is the way of a changing market.

However, in addition to that, there are gem purchases, which remain static in price. This works for items such as Rox’s Quiver and Bow much in the exact same respect as Riot’s trade system — a set item for a set price of real money. However, in the case of RNG boxes, you are gambling and/or hoping to win the lottery, so you are essentially paying for a chance at winning something, rather than paying directly for the item you want. It is, in essence, an unfair system to the players, since there is no reason Anet could not supply these items for a set price rather than have them be RNG — except for the sake of getting more money from people.

My point about Riot is that the trade system is fair, and it works — especially considering how many millions of dollars Riot makes from sales of skins alone. Anet could just as easily do it, and at the same time improve upon it by allowing people to work on it in game based upon the market and exchange they already have so people can partake without having for fork over more cash rather than work for it. Having RNG boxes is not only unfair to the players, it’s unethical because it’s a form of gambling.

Belier.9864:

Riot’s system is different from Guild Wars 2’s system. Riot’s system is a trade system, whereas in the case of GW2, it is a market system as well as a gambling/lottery system (Aka, RNG Boxes). The reason Riot’s system works is because they come out with content they can trade for a direct amount of non-fluctuating money (except in the case of sales, where prices are reduced for a period of time). This money is always static (for the most part) and remains where it is for a long period of time, or at least until the limited time content is no-longer available.

The GW2 system does allow you to buy items from the gem store from in-game currency, however, the price of which fluctuates drastically. Gems used to cost 20s for 100. Now they’re over a gold for 100. This makes it so one day, the cost of something can be low, and the next day, it can be high, and thus is the way of a changing market.

However, in addition to that, there are gem purchases, which remain static in price. This works for items such as Rox’s Quiver and Bow much in the exact same respect as Riot’s trade system — a set item for a set price of real money. However, in the case of RNG boxes, you are gambling and/or hoping to win the lottery, so you are essentially paying for a chance at winning something, rather than paying directly for the item you want. It is, in essence, an unfair system to the players, since there is no reason Anet could not supply these items for a set price rather than have them be RNG — except for the sake of getting more money from people.

My point about Riot is that the trade system is fair, and it works — especially considering how many millions of dollars Riot makes from sales of skins alone. Anet could just as easily do it, and at the same time improve upon it by allowing people to work on it in game based upon the market and exchange they already have so people can partake without having for fork over more cash rather than work for it. Having RNG boxes is not only unfair to the players, it’s unethical because it’s a form of gambling.

You miss the point. Users can convert in-game currency into Gems, then use those Gems in the Gem shop. There’s also the fact that players can obtain the majority of skins in this game by simply playing the game, something that’s impossible on LoL. Completely different business models. Again, to say that “Riot’s business system works, why can’t Anet adopt it?” Is to completely ignore the context of the games themselves.

Because users can convert game currency into Gems, and use them to make Gem purchases, there is pressure for Anet to encourage real money purchases of gems, as opposed to in-game gold purchase of gems. Or else their business model fails.

They can only do it by discouraging people from converting in-game gold to gems. They can do this with two methods: the changing Gold/Gem exchange rate (A beautifully implemented system, but a different topic altogether) and introducing items that are “expensive,” because people pay to get thing faster (with real-world money as opposed to spending time -> grinding gold in-game. This pay to get thing faster is an incredibly popular business model today.).

How do they introduce items that are “expensive?” You can literally put them for sale at 5000 gems, or you can put them as a random reward for 125 gems. The second one generates more money for Anet as a whole. Evidence? Look at Anet’s actions, that is plenty proof which method (cheap, static prices of Wintersday vs Fused/Sclerite/Dragon Jade) is more profitable. Heck, it’s human nature to be optimistic about your chances (I can save up my money…or spend a little bit of it on the lottery!)

And in the end, do you value you getting those skins more, or do you value Anet making money more? I prefer the latter. The lack of skins I can obtain does not bother me, and yet I do want this game to be successful. Is Anet being “shady” in trying to discourage Gold -> Gem exchanges? The mere existence of the exchange is a testament to the opposite, I feel.

Also please don’t bring up the topic of ethics. You’re trying to apply your own code of ethics on others and it’s utterly pointless. It’s like the Prohibitionists, until they realized that the majority of the country didn’t really share their opinion that alcohol was a sin.

Ursan.7846:

You miss the point. Users can convert in-game currency into Gems, then use those Gems in the Gem shop. There’s also the fact that players can obtain the majority of skins in this game by simply playing the game, something that’s impossible on LoL. Completely different business models. Again, to say that “Riot’s business system works, why can’t Anet adopt it?” Is to completely ignore the context of the games themselves.

You’ve missed my point then. I’m not trying to get Anet to adopt Riot’s model. Again, a trade system is different from a market system. But not comparing the two would be ignorant as well. What I am doing is comparing two systems of free to play games, showing that one has success in one area (Aka Riot with trade transactions with real money) and the other is successful in another area (Aka GW2 Market in terms of allowing players to earn items in game), then asking the question “Why can’t GW2 do both?”

There is no legitimate reason why Anet could not run both an in-game market and a real-money trade system in game — hell, they’ve proven they can do it with some items already, as I explained with Rox’s Quiver and Bow. My issue stems with RNG boxes, which are entirely pointless except to gather more money and be unfair to the customers and playerbase by making them go through a gambling/lottery system in order to get an item they want. My standpoint is you should either be able to earn it fairly (Such as using the GW2 Market), or buy it for a static price (Such as Riot’s Trade), rather than have player pay money for something they -might- get a chance at.

Ursan.7846:

Because users can convert game currency into Gems, and use them to make Gem purchases, there is pressure for Anet to encourage real money purchases of gems, as opposed to in-game gold purchase of gems. Or else their business model fails.

Again, the reason I compare Riot’s Business Model and Anet’s Business Model is because Riot is successful in proving you do not have to have RNG. Anet’s business model actually already includes the same business model as Riot for select items (Again, Rox’s bow, etc), and could easily make as much money doing similar things, even if they include a way to earn it in game from the market that is in place.

Regardless, even if they see an immediate revenue drop from more people deciding the item is something they’d rather work in game for than pay real money for, they would most likely see a return in playerbase and in increase in revenue from new and returning players because of it.

Ursan.7846:

They can only do it by discouraging people from converting in-game gold to gems. They can do this with two methods: the changing Gold/Gem exchange rate (A beautifully implemented system, but a different topic altogether) and introducing items that are “expensive,” because people pay to get thing faster (with real-world money as opposed to spending time -> grinding gold in-game. This pay to get thing faster is an incredibly popular business model today.).

Discouraging people to play your game and pay real money instead is an issue in its own. However, there is nothing wrong with a system that has “Pay to get what you want faster” — at least, not in terms of cosmetics. I take issue with games that are pay-to-win as well, but that’s a different story. Cosmetics are completely fine because they only change the visual look, not the interaction.

Continued in next post~

Ursan.7846:

How do they introduce items that are “expensive?” You can literally put them for sale at 5000 gems, or you can put them as a random reward for 125 gems. The second one generates more money for Anet as a whole. Evidence? Look at Anet’s actions, that is plenty proof which method (cheap, static prices of Wintersday vs Fused/Sclerite/Dragon Jade) is more profitable. Heck, it’s human nature to be optimistic about your chances (I can save up my money…or spend a little bit of it on the lottery!)

The lottery is just that. It’s a lottery. However, in a game like this, there is no need for a lottery — all it does is make the very few who get what they want feel like they’re super important and lucky, and the rest who involve themselves in it feel like dirt for even trying. I guarantee you, a vast number of people would rather earn their reward than receive it randomly — why? Because it’s not random. People do like static rewards, especially game players, rather than RNG.

Also, how are you to state that the static generates more than the random? If the static is 5000 gems, you know you’re paying 5000, and can consciously make that purchase. If a random item is 150 gems, and it takes you over 100 tries to even get one (15000 gems), then how is that equally as fair? Betting on RNG to take you less than the price to statically buy it is something some people like to take, but it is a form of gambling. You cannot state for sure that RNG will or will not bring them higher forms of revenue, and it only serves to reward few and discourage the rest. This a terrible form of business for a game which is supposed to make as much of their playerbase as happy as possible.

Ursan.7846:

And in the end, do you value you getting those skins more, or do you value Anet making money more? I prefer the latter. The lack of skins I can obtain does not bother me, and yet I do want this game to be successful. Is Anet being “shady” in trying to discourage Gold -> Gem exchanges? The mere existence of the exchange is a testament to the opposite, I feel.

I value having a wonderful game experience to play overall. I feel like I should support a company that shows it has my interests as a player involved, but I haven’t felt like that in some time with GW2 — and this is coming from a person who played the beta, got the collectors edition, and was eagerly awaiting for it to come out when I first heard about it back when I was playing GW1. Hell, I used to be a Guild Wars Fanboy.

You may have different opinions than me on what is “good” and not, since opinions are subjective, but the fact that a company is discouraging their game being played in turn for people spending real money at the chance at a lottery — yes, that does sound shady to me.

Continued in next post~

Ursan.7846:

Also please don’t bring up the topic of ethics. You’re trying to apply your own code of ethics on others and it’s utterly pointless. It’s like the Prohibitionists, until they realized that the majority of the country didn’t really share their opinion that alcohol was a sin.

Buzzer noises
Wrong.

In terms of the reason it is unethical is because, as I have stated and shown in different ways, it is a form of gambling. Gambling (at least in the United States) is heavily monitored and enforced by the laws of the states and countries, and put special rules in place surrounding casinos and other gambling outfits.

Because GW2 is a game in a virtual world, it is not affected by said laws, and thus they can do whatever they want with it — especially since they do not release information about the chances at which to get the items you want more. At least with gambling at casino, with games like craps or blackjack, you can mathematically calculate your odds. Here? We’re at mercy of the company, whether it be a 99% chance to get an item, or a 0.00000001% chance to get an item. We are never told, and thus, they can make up whatever they wish — that, in itself is unethical.

Unethical:
1. lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct.
2. not in accord with the standards of a profession.

There are no laws on this, and they make up the rules and standards. They make the choices, not the people. This is unethical.

End.

-Edit-
I think it important to mention for this last part I am not saying the GW2 Market is unethical, just the gambling behind the RNG boxes. The market is fine because it’s supply and demand based upon what the people decide, whereas the RNG box chance is determined and never revealed by Anet, which means we have to take it by face value and can never determine chance for our own.

Just to be clear, there is one assumption that I make, that RNG boxes equals more profit. I make this assumption solely based on Anet choosing the Fused model 3 times in a row (Fused, Sclerite, Dragon Jade). If you believe this assumption does not hold, that’s fine, there is really no discussion, because if this assumption does not hold, there is absolutely no reason to provide RNG boxes over the gem store (profits vs user inconvenience. Is Anet truly dumb enough to sacrifice the latter for no gains of the former?)

Belier.9864:

Buzzer noises
Wrong.

In terms of the reason it is unethical is because, as I have stated and shown in different ways, it is a form of gambling. Gambling (at least in the United States) is heavily monitored and enforced by the laws of the states and countries, and put special rules in place surrounding casinos and other gambling outfits.

Because GW2 is a game in a virtual world, it is not affected by said laws, and thus they can do whatever they want with it — especially since they do not release information about the chances at which to get the items you want more. At least with gambling at casino, with games like craps or blackjack, you can mathematically calculate your odds. Here? We’re at mercy of the company, whether it be a 99% chance to get an item, or a 0.00000001% chance to get an item. We are never told, and thus, they can make up whatever they wish — that, in itself is unethical.

Unethical:
1. lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct.
2. not in accord with the standards of a profession.

There are no laws on this, and they make up the rules and standards. They make the choices, not the people. This is unethical.

End.

This is probably off-topic, but eh well.

Ethics and morality is completely subjective. There are those that say gambling in itself is immoral, no matter what the regulations are. But I think I can safely infer that the majority of people don’t mind gambling that much.

Take Magic the Gathering. It’s booster packs has random outcomes. Even if they did publish the odds, I highly doubt the majority of its customers paid any attention to it (Hell, I didn’t.) Is this a form of gambling? Probably. Is it looked down upon? Not really. But will revealing the odds somehow make it “ethical” in your eyes? Will a majority of customers really care? (How many gamblers calculate odds in Blackjack?).

Also, with GW2’s (so far two) purely RNG skins, we’re talking about purely cosmetic luxuries here, in which the lack of it does not affect gameplay at all. I can certainly understand why people will be upset and unethical. But please do understand also that there are also others (like me, and feel free to browse the BLT subforum for this same discussion) who don’t see this as immoral, simply because it impacts my gameplay so insignificantly.

I honestly don’t mind people dismissing RNG. But it does annoy me when people try to justify it using ethics and morals, and try to pretend the issue is black and white. It’s not. It’s a very grey issue, and different people place their thresholds in different places. If Anet made the privilege of playing this game RNG? An uproar. RNG for a few luxury cosmetics? A shrug from me. Different degrees of severity and different individual threshold makes the issue a lot more complex than “This is unethical.”

EDIT: My message got somewhat disjointed because I am unclear of your core message. Are you not a fan of RNG in general? Or are you not a fan of Anet not revealing their RNG outcomes? They are very different, and I would appreciate if you can clarify.

Belier.9864:

Because GW2 is a game in a virtual world, it is not affected by said laws, and thus they can do whatever they want with it — especially since they do not release information about the chances at which to get the items you want more. .

I just wanted to point out that digital gambling (online poker anyone?) is regulated in the U.S. You better believe that online game companies are aware of the laws regarding such things. Companies of all stripes, for years, have identified ways to circumvent Gambling laws and create games of chance that don’t quite qualify as gambling in the sense that you are describing, despite the similarities. I am not condoning it, I am just reminding you that they can’t do whatever they want. They are working within a legal framework here and the rules are different.

Theftwind.8976:

Vayne.8563:

You got VIP for free? Or you bought it when it was sold? Red herring is a red herring. I was a VIP to, a privilege for which I paid $15 dollars a month. Sure if I pay $15 a month I can save my points to get the expansion free with the points I didn’t spend on other stuff. But that’s not free. That’s not even CLOSE to free.

In the short time I played Lotro, I paid double the money I put into Guild Wars 2, for a whole lot less.

I got my accounts on release when they offered lifetime for a flat one time fee. I realize that option is no longer available but I do not have to pay a 15$ per month fee, still get my TPs each and every month, and have gotten my full enjoyment out of the game for my initial investment. Everything that came after that, including Mines of Moria, Riders of the Rohan and this years expansion Helms Deep, I got (or will get) with my points. So three expansions, plus the original game all for my initial investment was well worth it for me. If I want something from the store I do not have to buy “chances” to get something, I buy the item outright with earned points and no rl money.

So although I enjoy both games, GW2’s rng business model is rapidly lowering my enjoyment for this game.

So if you weren’t there at the time and/or didn’t take advantage at that time of the lifetime subscribers model, everything you’ve said is pretty much invalid. That would be most people, btw.

Saying this game isn’t like that, because I took advantage of a limited time offer years ago is probably just a little bit disingenuous.

Other people either pay a monthly fee, grind like mad, or pay for content. That game is NOT free to play…even for you, since you paid for a lifetime subscription to it.

Ursan.7846:

Just to be clear, there is one assumption that I make, that RNG boxes equals more profit. I make this assumption solely based on Anet choosing the Fused model 3 times in a row (Fused, Sclerite, Dragon Jade). If you believe this assumption does not hold, that’s fine, there is really no discussion, because if this assumption does not hold, there is absolutely no reason to provide RNG boxes over the gem store (profits vs user inconvenience. Is Anet truly dumb enough to sacrifice the latter for no gains of the former?)

RNG most likely does equal more profit, but not fairness to the players. If it doesn’t get them more profit, then why are they doing it, considering they’d be losing revenue? Also, with Halloween, it’d be four times.

Thing is, there’s no way to put a good spin on this. If they do it but aren’t getting good money for it, then why would they waste the time doing it? On the flip side, if it’s getting them more money at the sake of kitten ing off their playerbase with something that is unfair to them, doesn’t that give them the image of being greedy and only in it for the money?

Ursan.7846:

This is probably off-topic, but eh well.

Ethics and morality is completely subjective. There are those that say gambling in itself is immoral, no matter what the regulations are. But I think I can safely infer that the majority of people don’t mind gambling that much.

Ethics, I suppose, is subjective, however this is a form of Gambling that has no regulation, and is widely available to anyone who can pay for it — even kids. There are age limits in the U.S. for gambling, but not for gambling of this sort, since it isn’t legally recognized as such. Just because it’s legal doesn’t make it right — that said, right and wrong are, again, subjective.

Ursan.7846:

Take Magic the Gathering. It’s booster packs has random outcomes. Even if they did publish the odds, I highly doubt the majority of its customers paid any attention to it (Hell, I didn’t.) Is this a form of gambling? Probably. Is it looked down upon? Not really. But will revealing the odds somehow make it “ethical” in your eyes? Will a majority of customers really care? (How many gamblers calculate odds in Blackjack?).

See, here’s the thing about the similarities between GW2 RNG boxes and Magic Boosters: Magic is rather similar in the way that RNG boxes work, you are correct in this assumption. However, there are things that are guaranteed from a magic booster pack — you are always guaranteed a rare, three uncommons, and the rest commons with a chance at a foil card, which could be any of the three. With an RNG box, there is no guarantee on anything of value. Now, they may have changed this with the Southsun Supply Crates, as I refuse to buy any to try, however with the Black Lion Chests you are only guaranteed some tonics, some boosters, and a random item — of which the rarity can vary.

With Booster Packs for Magic, while you may not get what you want, you can at least have some assurance you are getting your money’s worth in items. RNG Chests in GW2 are not the same in those respects, especially since tonics are temporary uses (unless you get an endless, which is again, another RNG aspect), and as are boosters, which depending on the booster, could be entirely worthless to you as a player.

Ursan.7846:

Also, with GW2’s (so far two) purely RNG skins, we’re talking about purely cosmetic luxuries here, in which the lack of it does not affect gameplay at all. I can certainly understand why people will be upset and unethical. But please do understand also that there are also others (like me, and feel free to browse the BLT subforum for this same discussion) who don’t see this as immoral, simply because it impacts my gameplay so insignificantly.

There are more than two pure RNG skins. If we count up all the weapons, the three times it has been done so far, it should be 19×3 = 57 skins. Now, give or take minuses for skins they haven’t made (I don’t actually remember the full list of skins for halloween, but even if we don’t count those, it’s still 38 skins), it’s still a handful, and the number will get larger and larger if they continue these practices.

For many as well, getting new skins in this game -is- their form of progression in GW2 — not for all, but for quite a few. Considering the options of an “end game” are limited in GW2, since stat grinding for gear is not necessary. Aside from PvP options (WvWvW, sPvP), the only PvE options are to role play and to get different looking gear after they have completed the world map 100% (Such as I did three weeks into the game). Cosmetics is kinda the only form of PvE End Game for GW2 (Since Role play is strictly player created, not by Anet), so I would bet it’s quite important for a lot of people, even if it’s not for you.

Continued in next post~

Ursan.7846:

I honestly don’t mind people dismissing RNG. But it does annoy me when people try to justify it using ethics and morals, and try to pretend the issue is black and white. It’s not. It’s a very grey issue, and different people place their thresholds in different places. If Anet made the privilege of playing this game RNG? An uproar. RNG for a few luxury cosmetics? A shrug from me. Different degrees of severity and different individual threshold makes the issue a lot more complex than “This is unethical.”

I will admit, you’re right, it is not a black and white issue. The proper phrasing I should be using is “It is unethical in my views”, as I can only speak for myself. I find it unethical because it is gambling that is not regulated, and is widely available to all age groups — including those who could easily be preyed upon, or worse, find themselves in a gambling addiction (Though, I would think the extreme of that happening in GW2 is unlikely). I just dislike it happening in a game which I want to care so much for.

Ursan.7846:

EDIT: My message got somewhat disjointed because I am unclear of your core message. Are you not a fan of RNG in general? Or are you not a fan of Anet not revealing their RNG outcomes? They are very different, and I would appreciate if you can clarify.

Don’t get me wrong, RNG has it’s place. I’m a DnD player after all, which is all dice roll RNG. :P That being said, the core of my message is that I think that RNG in the case of Chests such as what can be bought from the gem store is an awful way of doing business. There are better ways of doing business where the people get what they want, the company gets their money, and everyone ends up happy. I’d much rather that than the company grabbing for as much money as they can while people open box after box and never get anything (Edit: Of Value, I should add. Something that makes the price they paid worth the while.).

RNG in games is great, as it keeps the game going — if you could get anything you want at any given time, what’s the point? That being said, if the RNG boxes were only chests you could buy with in-game money and couldn’t pay real money for, they’d be perfectly fine to me. It’s when RNG mixes with real money in games that I draw the line. People are perfectly fine and able to spend their in-game money for RNG because it’s something they spent time earning, and beyond the game, it doesn’t affect their lives outside. However, spending real money on RNG in game has a real affect on people after a time.

It’s, again, like the lottery. Buying one ticket isn’t an issue. You lost five bucks, so what? Course, then you try again. And again. And again. Suddenly, you realize you’ve lost several hundred dollars on just buying tickets alone, or perhaps even worse, and -never- gotten anything in turn for it. It’s the same concept, and it rather sickens me to think that people will spend real money — money that could buy them food, pay for school, or their house, etc — to get literally nothing in return.

End.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it’s not even the fact that people spend money to do that which sickens me. It’s the companies that prey upon it that sicken me. People doing it of their own free volition is their own choice, but companies who coax people into doing it are taking advantage and manipulating people, and that’s what grinds me so much.

nightwulf.1986:

I just wanted to point out that digital gambling (online poker anyone?) is regulated in the U.S. You better believe that online game companies are aware of the laws regarding such things. Companies of all stripes, for years, have identified ways to circumvent Gambling laws and create games of chance that don’t quite qualify as gambling in the sense that you are describing, despite the similarities. I am not condoning it, I am just reminding you that they can’t do whatever they want. They are working within a legal framework here and the rules are different.

Online Poker is Regulated because it is recognized as gambling. GW2 RNG boxes are not because it is not legally recognized as such, since it is under the guise of being a whole-sale object that people can buy in an MMO. Again, just because it’s legal, doesn’t mean it isn’t gambling. So, in this case, yes, they can make up the rules as they see fit.

@ Belier good discussion, but I think we’re generally in agreement (That we don’t think alike!). Just because it’s legal doesn’t make it necessarily right, but just because it’s illegal doesn’t necessarily mean wrong (And again, IMO, there are very few cases of absolute right and wrong in life. Gambling isn’t one of them.)

But I want to clarify that when I say “Pure RNG,” I mean items only obtainable through RNG, which up to this date are Fused and Sclerite (And a future Dragon Jade, that’s the third I mention.) I don’t count Halloween (And one set of Wintersday skins. THe Princess Wanda/Pop Guns and what not) because they can be obtained through the TP. And I mean two “sets.” The actual number honestly doesn’t matter, but the percentage of the whole matters to me, if you understand my drift, and it’s quite small compared to the large amount of skins available to in-game.

Ursan.7846:

@ Belier good discussion, but I think we’re generally in agreement (That we don’t think alike!). Just because it’s legal doesn’t make it necessarily right, but just because it’s illegal doesn’t necessarily mean wrong (And again, IMO, there are very few cases of absolute right and wrong in life. Gambling isn’t one of them.)

This I certainly agree with. There’s all sorts of shades of gray for certain, especially in gambling. It’s mainly in this case that I take issue with it, but I suppose that’s my issue. I’d rather make my opinion and criticisms known though, since I think it healthy to do so, and change only comes about if you try. :P

Ursan.7846:

But I want to clarify that when I say “Pure RNG,” I mean items only obtainable through RNG, which up to this date are Fused and Sclerite (And a future Dragon Jade, that’s the third I mention.) I don’t count Halloween (And one set of Wintersday skins. THe Princess Wanda/Pop Guns and what not) because they can be obtained through the TP. And I mean two “sets.” The actual number honestly doesn’t matter, but the percentage of the whole matters to me, if you understand my drift, and it’s quite small compared to the large amount of skins available to in-game.

I guess my concerns would be for the future. in that case. As it is, it’s a small part of the game. If Anet thinks they can continue this type of thing though, what’s to stop them? What if they decide this is how they want to release almost all future weapon and even armor skins in this manner?

While it’s small now, I’d rather try to nip it in the bud before it becomes too big a mess to control. That’s my stance on it. Perhaps I’ll end up the boy who cried wolf (As I hope it will be the case, to be honest!), but I’d much rather that than the wolf eating us alive (Or, in this case, GW2 becoming an RNG money-fest and eating everything in our wallets :P).

It is quite concerning. Though I defend their practices, I will be lying if said I like it didn’t bother me at all. But the thing that bothers me isn’t the RNG, it’s the fact that it’s pure RNG.

I vote for with my wallet. And make my voice heard in the BLT subforums that IMO, the Halloween model is the best (RNG, but option to purchase on TP so items can still stay rare)

Doomknight.7923:

NCSoft has shown time and again that their focus is on pleasing their pocket books

They would be a bad company if they wouldn’t try to maximise profit, wouldn’t they?

Ursan.7846:

It is quite concerning. Though I defend their practices, I will be lying if said I like it didn’t bother me at all. But the thing that bothers me isn’t the RNG, it’s the fact that it’s pure RNG.

I vote for with my wallet. And make my voice heard in the BLT subforums that IMO, the Halloween model is the best (RNG, but option to purchase on TP so items can still stay rare)

While I’m not a fan of the Halloween Model, it’s better than the current model that has untradeable items. I don’t want to defend practices that bother me, but I guess we differ there. I’d probably have less of a problem if it wasn’t Pure RNG, or at least if it was that we knew the actual percentage chance behind it, since we can determine at that point if we are willing to take the risk. If you know the exact risks of RNG and are willing to take it, then by all means. In this case, it’s the unknown factor that bugs me, since we never know what the likelihood will be.

@Hawkian. Significant contributions have already been made by Belier. I’ll add some points not (yet) touched upon by Belier.

First, I played Aion for 3 years. I consistently beat everyone in the arena, 1vs1 and 10vs10. Don’t tell me you actually believe google will help you on this issue. It appears you want to “win” at any cost, and you are utterly disrespectful of any opinion I hold in this respect. But I’ll answer nonetheless. Manastones in Aion, at least when I played it (I left about 2 years ago), made the difference between winning or losing. I could stack one stat so high I became invulnerable to most attacks (magic resist). Manastones had to be slotted, about 6 or 7 per armor piece (6 armor pieces in total I believe), and per weapon. Most people had at least two sets of weapons and 2 sets of armor. Slotting a manastone was painstaking, because failing inserting a manastone meant all slotted manastones would be destroyed. Per armor piece, this could run in the hundreds of manastones. Now, the tricky part was when the manastones started dropping less frequently, and the failrate of slotting them was increased significantly. And then, when the market reaches a crisis, poof! An item appeared in the shop which allowed you to slot one manastone without failure. At 5 euros a pop. And that was just the beginning. But I’ll stop there. Google, come on man.

1. Dealt with by Belier.
2. Dealt with by Belier. The mystic forge comparison would work if it concerned creating items that can only be made for a short period of time (ie no way to “save up”), and if it concerned enticing people who don’t have the strength to resist gambling, to pull out their wallet and gamble.
3. Dealt with by Belier. If people are considered responsible beings that require no protection from addiction, we wouldn’t need gambling laws in the first place. Or drug laws, for that matter. I wish it would be that easy. And don’t shy away from gaming addiction when speaking of GW2. I wouldn’t particularly consider it healthy for people to spend 8 hours a day in CoF, but scores of people seem to do it. Lastly, I’d like to add the qualifier “eventually”; I did’t say they would “rather” quit, i said people would eventually quit, some of them after having spent considerable amounts of cash on gambling. This is what the words “umpteenth time” referred to.
4. Dealt with by Belier. I did not argue RNG boxes were always around. I said it appears to become the new standard. Fused, sclerite, jade. Three consecutive weapon skin lines. I add that fused weapon skins appear to be more popular than some legendaries.
5. Dealt with by Belier. When I see people, that shouldn’t yet have to deal with these issues, being drawn and funneled into virtual gambling, the word scam is a mild word. I use it in order to avoid stronger words to describe the same which will be (rightfully) deleted by the moderators.
6. Dealt with by Belier. Money can be made in different ways. This one is morally unacceptable for the reasons stated above (and addressed excellently in the thread “on lottery (RNG) boxes”), and which additionally has the great potential of resulting in the picture I painted. I read this forum and others when I can, and as a result am aware where this new RNG box model is leading. When people leave MMO’s, they leave in waves. Once the first wave hits, I’ve never seen a company that was able to reverse the tide. I want to avoid the first wave, but there’s a big one forming itself if you take the time to look around you. Reddit is a good place to start.
7. See above. And “evidence”, come on man. If I had such a thing everyone would have it, and ncsoft’s stock would temporarily plummet as a result. All I can do is look around me and build on my experience. What i see is an ever increasing discontent with these boxes, which is becoming aggressive and bitter. Thus far, I’ve correctly identified the key moments and decisions that led to the downfall of the MMO’s I played. I hope I’m not correct this time – I always hope that – but I sincerely doubt it.
8. Dealt with by Belier. The community spoke clearly when it preferred some fused skins over legendaries. Yes, it’s subjective. But I prefer to stay away from personal comparisons. The fact that I have 800g in the bank (earned on TP), all the weapons i want (including vulcanus and such). that I have foostivoo, 3 fused skins and whatnot simply because I was dirt lucky (and earn a fat salary so I didn’t have to care about money spent on a few keys) has nothing to do with the content of the debate. For the same reasons, it’s irrelevant whether you personally do or do not like a skin. I don’t like the sclerite skins either, but it’s the concept of these boxes that is the problem, for the reasons above, as well as those already stated by Belier. Maybe these are ugly, but what about the jade weapons, or the “insert random cool future name” weapons?

~ continued.

To be clear, I always take people seriously when they take the time to write a response. The form in which you write it defines the level of seriousness though. "Semi-faulty, “backhanded”, “sweeping” and “disingenuous” are adjectives I’d stay away from, for starters. Questioning my source of knowledge (see Aion-google example, or “if you legitimately […]”, another) is not very respectful, either.