Guild Wars 2

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

Notice how it’s snowballing into absurdity.

Part of the reason why it is doing so is that you’re only focused on stealth. Let’s tweak it, and forget about the rest of the game. That’s already absurd.

But now that you’ve vented, and have seen that there are others that are also by your side… Do you at least feel a bit better? Or still irritated?

I’m irritated moreso than ever, because I have a legitimate complaint that is being dismissed as rubbish simply due to the fact that there have been so many frivolous complaints about stealth in the past.

Enlighten me: how is your frivolous complaint about stealth less frivolous then the others came before yours?

The only problem I have with stealth is that, with a few exceptions, it’s the only mechanic in the game with out a direct counter. It would be like if stability didn’t exist and you were expected to predict and dodge all knockdown.

I find it a bit ridiculous that the only way you know if you hit a stealthed thief is that your auto attack chain continues or he sets off a trap or mark. A thief should have to avoid your attacks to stay stealthed. Or at least have a better indication that u have hit something.

I whole heartedly agree with the OP- Im actually of the slightly more extreme opinion that on hit, stealth should be removed. I should think that would actually make thief play more engaging, and fit better with the concept of stealth, as you should be rewarded for evading detection, and not be able to blunder through the enemy’s attacks and not be knocked out of focus.

Zero Day.2594:

stuff

I leave you some popcorn here.

get sigil of fire and air and you will see where exactly they are when you hit them

Lucky Shot.7650:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

Notice how it’s snowballing into absurdity.

Part of the reason why it is doing so is that you’re only focused on stealth. Let’s tweak it, and forget about the rest of the game. That’s already absurd.

But now that you’ve vented, and have seen that there are others that are also by your side… Do you at least feel a bit better? Or still irritated?

I’m irritated moreso than ever, because I have a legitimate complaint that is being dismissed as rubbish simply due to the fact that there have been so many frivolous complaints about stealth in the past.

Enlighten me: how is your frivolous complaint about stealth less frivolous then the others came before yours?

Can you spot the difference?

Frivolous Argument: Remove stealth from the game, because I think it is overpowered after I died to some thief in pvp or wvw.

My Argument: Please give players the ability to visually see the damage dealt (in numbers) when they strike an opponent in stealth, because there is too much of a guessing game involved against players using stealth defensively.

Jana.6831:

Swagger.1459:

Jana.6831:

Swagger.1459:

Jana.6831:

Swagger.1459:

Jana.6831:

Azhure.1857:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

At very least the game should still show damage splashes on opponents which have been struck.

(this, of course would not apply to projectiles or ranged attacks)

I agree here. It makes no sense that stealth is more than simple invisibility. If I strike an invisible opponent with a melee weapon then I should know that I hit them, instantly.

My L2P advise: equip a superior sigil of fire.
Edit: And there are in fact 17562481756234 indicators of where a thief is: best indicator is that thief is a melee class. So where can the thief be?

can you explain exactly how having a sigil of fire equipped is beneficial?

ok so the indicator is this???… assume that the thief is in melee range and hope that your melee weapon is equipped so you can spam #1 and pray to hit said invisible player?

Sigil of fire triggers a fireblast when you hit the opponent (with a critical hit).
Any yeah, fighting melee classes with melee weapons is a good choice – you can always go ranged but that won’t do much good against thieves.

ok so you hit the thief while they were visible and your sigil proc but they reapply stealth, now what?

ok having a ranged weapon is useless so you are sol if you don’t have a melee weapon. gotcha. playing ranged is an insta loss scenario.

stand there swinging a melee weapon around is the best anti-stealth method. so “swing and pray” is your l2p advice. seems to be a great and well thought out combat mechanic…

You can also spam aoe you will hit the thief 100%.
Edit: And they have no blocks or anything.

can you tell me all the spammable aoes per profession and build?

No, I can’t and I won’t (I see what you’re trying here) – just find them for your prefered class and equip the weapons necessary for it if you’re afraid of thieves or don’t like to spam 1.

you never answered my previous question…

“ok so you hit the thief while they were visible and your sigil proc but they reapply stealth, now what?”

so let’s assume that everyone is currently equipped with weapons and skills that generate an aoe effect. so what happens when players spam all of their aoe abilities (that are on timers mind you) and get lucky enough to hit the thief and they reapply stealth?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Lucky Shot.7650:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

Notice how it’s snowballing into absurdity.

Part of the reason why it is doing so is that you’re only focused on stealth. Let’s tweak it, and forget about the rest of the game. That’s already absurd.

But now that you’ve vented, and have seen that there are others that are also by your side… Do you at least feel a bit better? Or still irritated?

I’m irritated moreso than ever, because I have a legitimate complaint that is being dismissed as rubbish simply due to the fact that there have been so many frivolous complaints about stealth in the past.

Enlighten me: how is your frivolous complaint about stealth less frivolous then the others came before yours?

Can you spot the difference?

Frivolous Argument: Remove stealth from the game, because I think it is overpowered after I died to some thief in pvp or wvw.

My Argument: Please give players the ability to visually see the damage dealt (in numbers) when they strike an opponent in stealth, because there is too much of a guessing game involved against players using stealth defensively.

Yeah, it still falls into the same category that get’s ridiculed and not taken seriously.

Why?

Let’s “tweak” something, regardless of how it will effect other aspects of the class. It’s balanced because I said so, not because I’ve taken everything into consideration.

Jana.6831:

Zero Day.2594:

stuff

I leave you some popcorn here.

Thanks. Already enjoy this thread! The OP is at least TRYING to be different then the rest of the pack, but still remains the same.

Zero Day.2594:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Lucky Shot.7650:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

Notice how it’s snowballing into absurdity.

Part of the reason why it is doing so is that you’re only focused on stealth. Let’s tweak it, and forget about the rest of the game. That’s already absurd.

But now that you’ve vented, and have seen that there are others that are also by your side… Do you at least feel a bit better? Or still irritated?

I’m irritated moreso than ever, because I have a legitimate complaint that is being dismissed as rubbish simply due to the fact that there have been so many frivolous complaints about stealth in the past.

Enlighten me: how is your frivolous complaint about stealth less frivolous then the others came before yours?

Can you spot the difference?

Frivolous Argument: Remove stealth from the game, because I think it is overpowered after I died to some thief in pvp or wvw.

My Argument: Please give players the ability to visually see the damage dealt (in numbers) when they strike an opponent in stealth, because there is too much of a guessing game involved against players using stealth defensively.

Yeah, it still falls into the same category that get’s ridiculed and not taken seriously.

Why?

Let’s “tweak” something, regardless of how it will effect other aspects of the class. It’s balanced because I said so, not because I’ve taken everything into consideration.

….what is so detrimental about adding the dmg splash back to stealthed opponents?

Jana.6831:

Azhure.1857:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

At very least the game should still show damage splashes on opponents which have been struck.

(this, of course would not apply to projectiles or ranged attacks)

I agree here. It makes no sense that stealth is more than simple invisibility. If I strike an invisible opponent with a melee weapon then I should know that I hit them, instantly.

My L2P advise: equip a superior sigil of fire.
Edit: And there are in fact 17562481756234 indicators of where a thief is: best indicator is that thief is a melee class. So where can the thief be?

Thats the point- the thief could be anywhere, HES INVISIBLE AND WONT COME OUT UNTIL HE WANTS TO. What dont you get about this? Are you actually saying that thieves will only ever be in melee range while stealthed? Especially with the plethora of escape/ movement skills you can use?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Lucky Shot.7650:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

Notice how it’s snowballing into absurdity.

Part of the reason why it is doing so is that you’re only focused on stealth. Let’s tweak it, and forget about the rest of the game. That’s already absurd.

But now that you’ve vented, and have seen that there are others that are also by your side… Do you at least feel a bit better? Or still irritated?

I’m irritated moreso than ever, because I have a legitimate complaint that is being dismissed as rubbish simply due to the fact that there have been so many frivolous complaints about stealth in the past.

Enlighten me: how is your frivolous complaint about stealth less frivolous then the others came before yours?

Can you spot the difference?

Frivolous Argument: Remove stealth from the game, because I think it is overpowered after I died to some thief in pvp or wvw.

My Argument: Please give players the ability to visually see the damage dealt (in numbers) when they strike an opponent in stealth, because there is too much of a guessing game involved against players using stealth defensively.

Yeah, it still falls into the same category that get’s ridiculed and not taken seriously.

Why?

Let’s “tweak” something, regardless of how it will effect other aspects of the class. It’s balanced because I said so, not because I’ve taken everything into consideration.

….what is so detrimental about adding the dmg splash back to stealthed opponents?

Well, it kind of voids the purpose of stealth in that situation.
Similarly how channeling spells casted before a user enters stealth POINT EXACTLY to where the stealthed guy is. (Honestly, a half-kitten ’ed implementation, in both directions – for and against stealth).
Besides splash damage I guess you would also want bleeding/condition ticks to show up, since that also makes sense and I mean at that point AoE splash damage shows up, why not have the condition ticks show up. (yeah, slippery slope)
So, now we have a stealthed guy, running around with damage/ticks floating above his head pointing to exactly where he is as if he wasn’t stealthed… cool. He tried to survive by hiding (not buffing) himself only to be tracked just as easily, o well I guess he’s option is to break out of stealth and die fighting.

I will be back in a couple hours.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

…and nobody is even addressing the tweak I’ve suggested of adding a dmg splash to stealthed opponents, and instead everyone continues to dance around the subject and try and tell me I don’t know how to play the game, or pointlessly bash stealth because that have no idea how to fight a stealthed opponent.

I did, actually.
But yes – the fanatics have definitely come out to play with you in this thread.

Zero Day.2594:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Lucky Shot.7650:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

Notice how it’s snowballing into absurdity.

Part of the reason why it is doing so is that you’re only focused on stealth. Let’s tweak it, and forget about the rest of the game. That’s already absurd.

But now that you’ve vented, and have seen that there are others that are also by your side… Do you at least feel a bit better? Or still irritated?

I’m irritated moreso than ever, because I have a legitimate complaint that is being dismissed as rubbish simply due to the fact that there have been so many frivolous complaints about stealth in the past.

Enlighten me: how is your frivolous complaint about stealth less frivolous then the others came before yours?

Can you spot the difference?

Frivolous Argument: Remove stealth from the game, because I think it is overpowered after I died to some thief in pvp or wvw.

My Argument: Please give players the ability to visually see the damage dealt (in numbers) when they strike an opponent in stealth, because there is too much of a guessing game involved against players using stealth defensively.

Yeah, it still falls into the same category that get’s ridiculed and not taken seriously.

Why?

Let’s “tweak” something, regardless of how it will effect other aspects of the class. It’s balanced because I said so, not because I’ve taken everything into consideration.

….what is so detrimental about adding the dmg splash back to stealthed opponents?

Well, it kind of voids the purpose of stealth in that situation.
Similarly how channeling spells casted before a user enters stealth POINT EXACTLY to where the stealthed guy is. (Honestly, a half-kitten ’ed implementation, in both directions – for and against stealth).
Besides splash damage I guess you would also want bleeding/condition ticks to show up, since that also makes sense and I mean at that point AoE splash damage shows up, why not have the condition ticks show up. (yeah, slippery slope)
So, now we have a stealthed guy, running around with damage/ticks floating above his head pointing to exactly where he is as if he wasn’t stealthed… cool. He tried to survive by hiding (not buffing) himself only to be tracked just as easily, o well I guess he’s option is to break out of stealth and die fighting.

---

I will be back in a couple hours.

Of course it would not apply to ranged attacks…
Think about it a bit more…. there would be no problems offensively, since your opponent will not just flail his weapon around until after you’ve initiated combat and he knows he is in a fight.

In the distant past, there have been suggestions about still having some conditions, such as bleeds, tick on stealthed opponents….. (with the irl vs fantasy comparison argument that blood leaving the body would show up) and at the time I agreed with those suggestions.

That was quite some time ago, however and I feel that would make bleeding almost a hard counter to stealth…. and that is not the route I want to go with this.

Plus, condition damage builds are strong against stealth anyway, so it is not really necessary.

…and lol I agree with you about some poor stealthed guy running around with all sorts of numbers above his head, and that’s not what I want either.

I just want the dmg splash for melee attacks to show up.

If you swipe a melee weapon at a stealthed opponent, and you hit him….. you are going to deal that damage whether or not numbers show up.

If it is an auto attack, you can tell if you struck something based on your auto-attack chain progressing, for other attacks you will be building adrenaline on warrior or watching your justice effect rise on guardian, if you hit a stealthed opponent with a fire or air sigil, you can see the sigil proc at the opponent’s location, etc.

In all of these cases, having a damage splash would change nothing for a player who knows where to look.

There are very few cases where you will be striking a stealthed foe with a melee weapon that do not fall into the situations above. So why not just have the numbers show up? Why do we have to play all these games?

Why should you lose your tell if you have a full adrenaline bar?
Why should you lose your tell if you have used your virtue of justice?

etc.

Zero Day.2594:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Lucky Shot.7650:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Zero Day.2594:

Notice how it’s snowballing into absurdity.

Part of the reason why it is doing so is that you’re only focused on stealth. Let’s tweak it, and forget about the rest of the game. That’s already absurd.

But now that you’ve vented, and have seen that there are others that are also by your side… Do you at least feel a bit better? Or still irritated?

I’m irritated moreso than ever, because I have a legitimate complaint that is being dismissed as rubbish simply due to the fact that there have been so many frivolous complaints about stealth in the past.

Enlighten me: how is your frivolous complaint about stealth less frivolous then the others came before yours?

Can you spot the difference?

Frivolous Argument: Remove stealth from the game, because I think it is overpowered after I died to some thief in pvp or wvw.

My Argument: Please give players the ability to visually see the damage dealt (in numbers) when they strike an opponent in stealth, because there is too much of a guessing game involved against players using stealth defensively.

Yeah, it still falls into the same category that get’s ridiculed and not taken seriously.

Why?

Let’s “tweak” something, regardless of how it will effect other aspects of the class. It’s balanced because I said so, not because I’ve taken everything into consideration.

….what is so detrimental about adding the dmg splash back to stealthed opponents?

Well, it kind of voids the purpose of stealth in that situation.
Similarly how channeling spells casted before a user enters stealth POINT EXACTLY to where the stealthed guy is. (Honestly, a half-kitten ’ed implementation, in both directions – for and against stealth).
Besides splash damage I guess you would also want bleeding/condition ticks to show up, since that also makes sense and I mean at that point AoE splash damage shows up, why not have the condition ticks show up. (yeah, slippery slope)
So, now we have a stealthed guy, running around with damage/ticks floating above his head pointing to exactly where he is as if he wasn’t stealthed… cool. He tried to survive by hiding (not buffing) himself only to be tracked just as easily, o well I guess he’s option is to break out of stealth and die fighting.

---

I will be back in a couple hours.

I like how you modified the OP so it was broken and proceeded to bash it. The only way that happens is if we add condi damage ticks, which YOU suggested, not the OP. Dont screw with what hes saying in order to make this sound more ridiculous than it is

As things are stealth and some other boons (stability) simply last too long or can be stacked to last for a long time. There needs to be a real window of “i do not have stealth, i do not have stability” that is more then just when the class dodge roll spams or simply blinks out of a fight.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

….what is so detrimental about adding the dmg splash back to stealthed opponents?

My best guess?
A combat mechanic that is imbalanced is being threatened with a considerate amount of balance.

Mireles Lore.5942:

A thief should have to avoid your attacks to stay stealthed. Or at least have a better indication that u have hit something.

I concur – hop into stealth, but if contact is made, either the stealth is removed or at least a damage indicator is shown. Its invisibility not intangibility.

If they stay and fight there are counters such as cleaves, drop aoe, etc. If the enemy just wants to run away stealth if the best mechanic to break combat. You should be able to avoid basically anything with stealth +shadowstep.

You won’t see any change on that because they balance stuff around conquest mode. In conquest: stealth+runaway = letting the enemy decap your point = losing.

Someone built an SA troll build and annoyed the OP. lol.

The OP is looking at this the wrong way. He complains about being denied his kill without realizing that if the Thief runs away he successfully denied the Thief a kill also.

From a Thief’s perspective, if I ambushed a Warrior, I have the element of surprise so I should win. Yet a lot of these Celestial bunkers can fend off Thieves.

In a sense, as a Thief, I am as frustrated as the OP not getting the kill. Why should I die from a bunker? I do not have any respect for such build. My death is an honor that belongs to those who build Beserker — no honor on tanky or Celestial builds.

Deal with it.

I can build tanky also and can be as hard to kill, as wells as being really annoying, but what would that accomplish? That’s like watching 300 pounders trying to take eachother out in a pillow fight. Boring (albeit funny).

So if you’re building tanky and the Thief runs away, you fulfilled your purpose — to be unkillable — but to also want the kill? That’s nothing but a wishful thinking. No Thief will stick around stabbing a brick wall with a butter knife. There’s other fish to fry.

And if you think that stealth is a such a waste of time — bunker is a build to waste time and as a Thief, I won’t give you the pleasure — unless I’m trolling you with my SA build, of course — we can both waste our time.

Swagger.1459:

Jana.6831:

Swagger.1459:

Jana.6831:

Swagger.1459:

Jana.6831:

Azhure.1857:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

At very least the game should still show damage splashes on opponents which have been struck.

(this, of course would not apply to projectiles or ranged attacks)

I agree here. It makes no sense that stealth is more than simple invisibility. If I strike an invisible opponent with a melee weapon then I should know that I hit them, instantly.

My L2P advise: equip a superior sigil of fire.
Edit: And there are in fact 17562481756234 indicators of where a thief is: best indicator is that thief is a melee class. So where can the thief be?

can you explain exactly how having a sigil of fire equipped is beneficial?

ok so the indicator is this???… assume that the thief is in melee range and hope that your melee weapon is equipped so you can spam #1 and pray to hit said invisible player?

Sigil of fire triggers a fireblast when you hit the opponent (with a critical hit).
Any yeah, fighting melee classes with melee weapons is a good choice – you can always go ranged but that won’t do much good against thieves.

ok so you hit the thief while they were visible and your sigil proc but they reapply stealth, now what?

ok having a ranged weapon is useless so you are sol if you don’t have a melee weapon. gotcha. playing ranged is an insta loss scenario.

stand there swinging a melee weapon around is the best anti-stealth method. so “swing and pray” is your l2p advice. seems to be a great and well thought out combat mechanic…

You can also spam aoe you will hit the thief 100%.
Edit: And they have no blocks or anything.

can you tell me all the spammable aoes per profession and build?

also, you didn’t answer my question.

I actually find it sort of fun as an engineer to play the thief guessing game… but I play with explosions and increased radius. When they vanish and I guess they’re coming for me, I give it a few seconds, turn a random quarter turn, do my 5 on rifle, and proceed to drop bombs. When I’m meleing them and they go stealth, I switch to bombs and run about hitting 5 (glue) then burning then usual. But this is abnormal for most classes and only is slightly viable for engi.

Plus I’m not very good at PVP yet so maybe when people are better I’ll just get creamed.

They also have an annoying return to start mechanic that can get them away from me, while leaving me immobilized and my AOE centered on me useless. That’s sorta annoying…

The fact of the matter is that stealth remains to be the only mechanic in the game that does not have a counter available to all classes. You can enter all the conjecture and personal opinion on who deserves what kill or what is cheese and what isn’t. With the exception of sic em’ and analyze, stealth does not have a direct counter for 6 out of 8 classes. This is a fact.

No, dropping aoe and using cleaves are not counters. That would be like if condition removal, stun breakers, and stability didn’t exist then proceed to suggest regen, dodging, and interrupts were the counters to thier respective mechanics. A counter is one mechanic specifically designed to neutralize another.

How one would balance this is totally up for debate but I think revealed needs to be made available to all classes just like every other counter in the game.

Look, call me crazy, but I believe light fields should strip stealth on contact.

It’s not the same thing as reveal which is detection but you make stealth with a dark field, ergo why not have a light field reverse it?

This would mostly help Guardians and Mesmers:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_field

First, it’s a lot less powerful than the reveal/detection and it would be easily avoided.

If you think about it, it’s a bit silly that a thief can remain fully invisible in front of your face, at arms reach, even while taking damage from a field.

Thematically, it’s also a nice fit and it would mainly keep a thief from entering symbols (which are of pretty limited utility anyway)

Come on Anet, let’s do it!

shion.2084:

Swagger.1459:

Jana.6831:

Swagger.1459:

Jana.6831:

Swagger.1459:

Jana.6831:

Azhure.1857:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

At very least the game should still show damage splashes on opponents which have been struck.

(this, of course would not apply to projectiles or ranged attacks)

I agree here. It makes no sense that stealth is more than simple invisibility. If I strike an invisible opponent with a melee weapon then I should know that I hit them, instantly.

My L2P advise: equip a superior sigil of fire.
Edit: And there are in fact 17562481756234 indicators of where a thief is: best indicator is that thief is a melee class. So where can the thief be?

can you explain exactly how having a sigil of fire equipped is beneficial?

ok so the indicator is this???… assume that the thief is in melee range and hope that your melee weapon is equipped so you can spam #1 and pray to hit said invisible player?

Sigil of fire triggers a fireblast when you hit the opponent (with a critical hit).
Any yeah, fighting melee classes with melee weapons is a good choice – you can always go ranged but that won’t do much good against thieves.

ok so you hit the thief while they were visible and your sigil proc but they reapply stealth, now what?

ok having a ranged weapon is useless so you are sol if you don’t have a melee weapon. gotcha. playing ranged is an insta loss scenario.

stand there swinging a melee weapon around is the best anti-stealth method. so “swing and pray” is your l2p advice. seems to be a great and well thought out combat mechanic…

You can also spam aoe you will hit the thief 100%.
Edit: And they have no blocks or anything.

can you tell me all the spammable aoes per profession and build?

also, you didn’t answer my question.

I actually find it sort of fun as an engineer to play the thief guessing game… but I play with explosions and increased radius. When they vanish and I guess they’re coming for me, I give it a few seconds, turn a random quarter turn, do my 5 on rifle, and proceed to drop bombs. When I’m meleing them and they go stealth, I switch to bombs and run about hitting 5 (glue) then burning then usual. But this is abnormal for most classes and only is slightly viable for engi.

Plus I’m not very good at PVP yet so maybe when people are better I’ll just get creamed.

They also have an annoying return to start mechanic that can get them away from me, while leaving me immobilized and my AOE centered on me useless. That’s sorta annoying…

You have no idea how annoying bomberman Engis and the new and improved Throw mine — I think that blast radius is just too big. 120 trigger range and 180 explosion range would have been fine. It would have been ok if it just deal damage but with knockback, AoE debuff, and unblockable…it’s BS. Not to mention, they can also pop a minefield from their gadget to remove more buff.

Stealth, itself, is not the problem in this game. I can safely point to a few classes that can do “X” thing that are horrendously annoying/cheesy/whatever. it doesn’t mean it needs to be nerfed into the ground.

Sure, there are some things regarding stealth that are broken (like stealth off of doors and walls in WvW) but that is more a bug issue than the mechanic itself being countered.

Is it annoying that a good stealth player can break off and get away when they are about to lose? Sure. It can be argued that its just as annoying for that stealth glass cannon thief when they try to fight the super tanky Guardian with the 100000 blocks and aegis and blinds they have rendering that one trick pony thief useless.

So you personally have a hard time against stealth eh?

http://i.imgur.com/3khiHwP.gif

The only change stealth needs is letting us see numbers for hitting stealthed enemies. That’s it, that’s the only change. It gives a counter to stealth because your general area is being revealed to the enemy in terms of damage numbers.

All of these people defending stealth I mean can you be any more….really though? Some of these comments defending it are on borderline dementia:

Sigil of fire? you cant target anything in stealth you have to guess with Aoes or swing frantically in every direction. PLUS like someone already said the sigil is not practical for all builds and it doesnt work 100% of the time.

Apparently we have psychics in this world that can see the unseeable and can accurately predict where a moving invisible player is at any given moment. As a thief, i have also done the move in one direction, stealth then evade the random swings backwards in the opposite direction, works everytime.

Comparing Warriors mobilty to stealth? Do some of us not know what stealth is?

TheBlackLeech suggested damage splash, if im not mistaken, this means when you hit someone, a stealthy opponent that is close by takes some of the damage. While the idea might work in some scenarios, it requires more than one person there and the player in stealth has to be close by.

This is what we need, suggestions other than removing stealth. The fact is there is a problem with the options available to deal with stealth, whether or not that is the case is a debate that should be over.

tboneking.2531:

Zero Day.2594:

Well, it kind of voids the purpose of stealth in that situation.
Similarly how channeling spells casted before a user enters stealth POINT EXACTLY to where the stealthed guy is. (Honestly, a half-kitten ’ed implementation, in both directions – for and against stealth).
Besides splash damage I guess you would also want bleeding/condition ticks to show up, since that also makes sense and I mean at that point AoE splash damage shows up, why not have the condition ticks show up. (yeah, slippery slope)
So, now we have a stealthed guy, running around with damage/ticks floating above his head pointing to exactly where he is as if he wasn’t stealthed… cool. He tried to survive by hiding (not buffing) himself only to be tracked just as easily, o well I guess he’s option is to break out of stealth and die fighting.

---

I will be back in a couple hours.

I like how you modified the OP so it was broken and proceeded to bash it. The only way that happens is if we add condi damage ticks, which YOU suggested, not the OP. Dont screw with what hes saying in order to make this sound more ridiculous than it is

Yes, very observant you are, perhaps you were able to read the “(yeah, slippery slope)” at the end of it. I applaud you.
Perhaps it wasn’t the best method to lead the OP by, but it kind of worked nonetheless. Also, let’s not be naive, as that’s a slippery slope that will happen if and after his suggestion does get implement (“But hey, why is it only melee damage that shows up…?”).

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Of course it would not apply to ranged attacks…
Think about it a bit more…. there would be no problems offensively, since your opponent will not just flail his weapon around until after you’ve initiated combat and he knows he is in a fight.

In the distant past, there have been suggestions about still having some conditions, such as bleeds, tick on stealthed opponents….. (with the irl vs fantasy comparison argument that blood leaving the body would show up) and at the time I agreed with those suggestions.

That was quite some time ago, however and I feel that would make bleeding almost a hard counter to stealth…. and that is not the route I want to go with this.

Plus, condition damage builds are strong against stealth anyway, so it is not really necessary.

…and lol I agree with you about some poor stealthed guy running around with all sorts of numbers above his head, and that’s not what I want either.

I just want the dmg splash for melee attacks to show up.

If you swipe a melee weapon at a stealthed opponent, and you hit him….. you are going to deal that damage whether or not numbers show up.

If it is an auto attack, you can tell if you struck something based on your auto-attack chain progressing, for other attacks you will be building adrenaline on warrior or watching your justice effect rise on guardian, if you hit a stealthed opponent with a fire or air sigil, you can see the sigil proc at the opponent’s location, etc.

In all of these cases, having a damage splash would change nothing for a player who knows where to look.

There are very few cases where you will be striking a stealthed foe with a melee weapon that do not fall into the situations above. So why not just have the numbers show up? Why do we have to play all these games?

Why should you lose your tell if you have a full adrenaline bar?
Why should you lose your tell if you have used your virtue of justice?

etc.

So, you’ve realized that condition ticking would be a hard counter, and that’s great. Why would they be a hard counter?

Splash damage from melee, or damage appearing from a melee hit, there are three things that kind of bother me:

1. The damage number moves with the target for a short (1/2 second) time after hit, likely not the case. In this case you can see where the target is going and just follow it.
2. Melee weapons do have a short range to them (like you don’t have to be standing RIGHT ON THE TARGET, like a foot away), if the melee hit strikes twice while the target is getting out of range, the two hits can indicate where the target is going, allowing you to follow it.
3. If evades are picked up (they shouldn’t be by your logic, since you didn’t hit anything, and there was no feedback), and if they’re picked up more than once (like with 2nd point) can again allow you to follow the target.

The above shouldn’t be reasons to just say “no, lets not let numbers appear when they’re hit” (but you asked what’s so detrimental…), but the to lead you into a handful of questions bellow (which is why your post is still categorized as the same frivolous topic that’s been brought up yet again)…

Stealth used defensively, what does it do to the incoming damage? What other ways do stealth users (talking about mesmer and thief here) have to deal with being damaged without relying on stealth? How do other, non-stealth, classes deal with being damaged? Are there any draw backs to using stealth? Are there any draw backs to using other ways to mitigate damage that are used by other classes?

So, you acknowledge that there is a way to loosely tell where a stealthed target is (AA chains, Adrenaline, Zeal/Justice, …), and that’s great! Most people don’t seem to even acknowledge this. Would it be weird if those ways weren’t exactly meant for that? And why wouldn’t they be meant for that? Which links back to the top little paragraph with various questions.

Um might not be relevant since it’s a different game and different design… What allows a Rogue from WoW to survive in combat and out of stealth? Like what’s in it’s design/how is it designed to allow that? (And weirdly enough, there have been suggestions, on GW2 forums, ignoring the design differences, asking to have stealth function like stealth in WoW – I’m only asking those two questions to hopefully get you to think about the design of things)

Ahh, scrap all that, let’s just implement the suggestion and see what happens for 6 months! That should provide some real feedback on this case, instead of head scratching and arguing with each other.

Getting the burning debuff / condition should reveal you, problem solved. Makes sense

TWO YEARS LATER

People still haven’t learned to play the game it is amazing!

Thief is actually meant to stealth and run away from fights

You know how I know this? ITS BEEN TWO YEARS!

Please quit the game and send me your gold because stealth aint changing boys!

I don’t PvP much, though when I do, I often have the most fun coming up against thieves. They usually pwn me if they’re even halfway decent, but they feel like more of a challenge.

I don’t feel like I’ve entirely lost even if I die, if I could make a thief work for that kill.

Being drug out into PvP a couple of recent times has made me kinda think that there might not be much point in even trying to fight a pvp-experienced engineer. They felt to me like the d/d eles – capable of one to three shotting almost anything, anytime, anywhere.

But coming up against thieves, I accurately felt like there were things I could do other than just drop dead under an unending sea of damage.

Ill not be bothering with spvp again anytime soon. Bit for what it’s worth, it was fun going up against thieves. At least it felt like a fair fight, stealth included. I have a chance of outwitting and out maneuvering stealth.

Not much chance of outwitting or outmaneuvering engis or eles and their ‘you die if I look at you’ extremity of damage output.

Zero Day.2594:

Ahh, scrap all that, let’s just implement the suggestion and see what happens for 6 months! That should provide some real feedback on this case, instead of head scratching and arguing with each other.

Honestly, I’d kinda like to see this sort of thing being adopted by ArenaNet for a short time. Every month for 6 months they just toss a wrench in every profession’s variables and see what chaos unfolds…

Discussion and debate is all well and good, but I think it’d be hilarious to just take the “throw stuff at a wall and see what sticks” approach for a bit.

Zero Day.2594:

So, you’ve realized that condition ticking would be a hard counter, and that’s great. Why would they be a hard counter?

Splash damage from melee, or damage appearing from a melee hit, there are three things that kind of bother me:

1. The damage number moves with the target for a short (1/2 second) time after hit, likely not the case. In this case you can see where the target is going and just follow it.
2. Melee weapons do have a short range to them (like you don’t have to be standing RIGHT ON THE TARGET, like a foot away), if the melee hit strikes twice while the target is getting out of range, the two hits can indicate where the target is going, allowing you to follow it.
3. If evades are picked up (they shouldn’t be by your logic, since you didn’t hit anything, and there was no feedback), and if they’re picked up more than once (like with 2nd point) can again allow you to follow the target.

The above shouldn’t be reasons to just say “no, lets not let numbers appear when they’re hit” (but you asked what’s so detrimental…), but the to lead you into a handful of questions bellow (which is why your post is still categorized as the same frivolous topic that’s been brought up yet again)…

Stealth used defensively, what does it do to the incoming damage? What other ways do stealth users (talking about mesmer and thief here) have to deal with being damaged without relying on stealth? How do other, non-stealth, classes deal with being damaged? Are there any draw backs to using stealth? Are there any draw backs to using other ways to mitigate damage that are used by other classes?

So, you acknowledge that there is a way to loosely tell where a stealthed target is (AA chains, Adrenaline, Zeal/Justice, …), and that’s great! Most people don’t seem to even acknowledge this. Would it be weird if those ways weren’t exactly meant for that? And why wouldn’t they be meant for that? Which links back to the top little paragraph with various questions.

Um might not be relevant since it’s a different game and different design… What allows a Rogue from WoW to survive in combat and out of stealth? Like what’s in it’s design/how is it designed to allow that? (And weirdly enough, there have been suggestions, on GW2 forums, ignoring the design differences, asking to have stealth function like stealth in WoW – I’m only asking those two questions to hopefully get you to think about the design of things)

---

Ahh, scrap all that, let’s just implement the suggestion and see what happens for 6 months! That should provide some real feedback on this case, instead of head scratching and arguing with each other.

Honestly, I really appreciate your feedback more than anyone else posting in this thread. At least you are entertaining the thought of my suggestion, and you have valid concerns that don’t amount to you coming off as condescending in any way.

Since you asked…. I have entertained the thought that some of the ways I described are not available to other classes (besides warrior and guardian) to actually determine whether or not you actually are hitting opponents with melee dmg other than auto attacking. I feel that adding the numbers/splash would of course be beneficial to these classes, and it is only for the sake of balance.

As far as how the numbers work when appearing above opponent’s heads…. I don’t believe they actually follow a moving opponent the way you think they do….. but hitting once and having the splash appear in one spot then hitting again as your foe is retreating could potentially have the results you describe. How useful that would be in a fight (to actually determine where your foe is headed) would all depend on how long the stealthed foe stayed in melee range.

If this was actually implemented for a while, and players actually experienced having this tweak work for and/or against them, I believe everyone would realize that it is such a minute change that it would be hard to even call it a nerf.

Ragion.2831:

TheBlackLeech suggested damage splash, if im not mistaken, this means when you hit someone, a stealthy opponent that is close by takes some of the damage.

by damage splash i mean the little number that appears above a foe when it is struck, looks like this for crit dmg notice the red splash.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Ragion.2831:

TheBlackLeech suggested damage splash, if im not mistaken, this means when you hit someone, a stealthy opponent that is close by takes some of the damage.

by damage splash i mean the little number that appears above a foe when it is struck, looks like this for crit dmg notice the red splash.

Ohhh i see what you are saying, but what if there is no hit? You are more likely to miss. Its still a guessing game.

You people don’t seem to understand overall balance. You can’t nerf something without buffing something in return. Like Zero pointed out with WoW Rogues. They have a decent amount of survivability outside of stealth. This is not the case with GW2 Thieves. They are like literally the squishiest class in the game. If you take away stealth from Thieves without buffing their natural defenses they will be utter garbage. And as someone else mentioned you should focus on kitten like kittened faceroll engies before you even think about trying to change stealth.

Like I wouldn’t even really have an issue with what the OP is suggesting, but the whole way you guys are going about this argument is just kittened. All the stealth haters don’t get that the Thief is one of the hardest classes in this game to play and that without stealth they would get crushed in every fight with ease. Hell just get any class that does made AoE dmg and Thieves get blown up going anywhere near them.

There are dozens of mechanics that allow people to simply flee combat. I’m ok with speed buffs and teleports, but the ability to just jump repeatedly and get away is total horse kitten. They need to make it much harder for people to just run away and wait for someone to be in a compromised position. Fights feel meaningless when half the time it ends with the person that was losing simply running away.

Photonman.6241:

There are dozens of mechanics that allow people to simply flee combat. I’m ok with speed buffs and teleports, but the ability to just jump repeatedly and get away is total horse kitten. They need to make it much harder for people to just run away and wait for someone to be in a compromised position. Fights feel meaningless when half the time it ends with the person that was losing simply running away.

Consider it a victory if they run away.

Plus most of the time fighting/killing is a side objective…

But really, that’s a personal issue on how you view things.

Zero Day.2594:

Photonman.6241:

There are dozens of mechanics that allow people to simply flee combat. I’m ok with speed buffs and teleports, but the ability to just jump repeatedly and get away is total horse kitten. They need to make it much harder for people to just run away and wait for someone to be in a compromised position. Fights feel meaningless when half the time it ends with the person that was losing simply running away.

Consider it a victory if they run away.

Plus most of the time fighting/killing is a side objective…

But really, that’s a personal issue on how you view things.

Exactly people act like its Team Deathmatch. They aren’t satisfied with just getting an objective when that is the whole point anyway.

Hey, a player in party pass me a video of perma-stealth for thieves. Player want to share video with thieves who defend and justify stealth. Player say, “stealth is so broken and absurd in game; any thieves who defend it are lying or are delusional” “Stealth is no excuse for thieves and break all rules of stealth design”. Last say, “best solution is to completely remove it in the game”

Ragion.2831:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Ragion.2831:

TheBlackLeech suggested damage splash, if im not mistaken, this means when you hit someone, a stealthy opponent that is close by takes some of the damage.

by damage splash i mean the little number that appears above a foe when it is struck, looks like this for crit dmg notice the red splash.

Ohhh i see what you are saying, but what if there is no hit? You are more likely to miss. Its still a guessing game.

it maybe a guessing game , but its better than locking the thief out of stealth with longer revealed times, it gives a indicator of location with out knowing its real location , so it gives you a option to decide i hit him left or right? > does the left miss , go right does right miss , go Straight forward it allows the choice of judgement rather than a real guessing game. is the point of what he was trying to say.
and if those more Accurate hits do effect thiefs too much , it gives anet a reason to boost thiefs defences that would broaden there build diversity and fix this pigeon hole issue.

Griffith.7238:

You people don’t seem to understand overall balance. You can’t nerf something without buffing something in return. Like Zero pointed out with WoW Rogues. They have a decent amount of survivability outside of stealth. This is not the case with GW2 Thieves. They are like literally the squishiest class in the game. If you take away stealth from Thieves without buffing their natural defenses they will be utter garbage. And as someone else mentioned you should focus on kitten like kittened faceroll engies before you even think about trying to change stealth.

Like I wouldn’t even really have an issue with what the OP is suggesting, but the whole way you guys are going about this argument is just kittened. All the stealth haters don’t get that the Thief is one of the hardest classes in this game to play and that without stealth they would get crushed in every fight with ease. Hell just get any class that does made AoE dmg and Thieves get blown up going anywhere near them.

First of all you can nerf without buffing, Anet has done this too many times to count (e.g Flanking strike nerf didnt mean an increase in FS damage or longer evade duration and the latest Might nerf didnt mean a global increase in might duration) If Backstab was hitting 15k without vuln and might stacking, it would be nerfed period, armour wouldnt be simultaneously increased.

Secondly this idea thieves have that if you arent in stealth death is imminent, this sort of thinking is the reason for too many bad thieves I am a Dragon that has been using the thief class in pvp only for the past 4 months, and since day one my build has been an evade style one. I have never used shadow refuge, neither do i spam black powder/heartseeker or cloak and dagger, I also do not run shortbow. Lack of shortbow mobility should mean i should emphasize stealth right? wrong, this is a misconception that has gone on for long enough.

To emphasize my point, i should say again that i mained necro since 2012 so an evade thief is nothing like a necro. I say all this because making stealth slightly less effective absolutely does not mean thieves would be helpless.

I still think active stealth tracking only abilites for engis and stealthless classes should be enough. Even if you can detect where an invisible player is, you cannot target so you can only follow or try to ground target aoe and any thief worth anything can still get away. The only thing is backstab might be a little more difficult (not impossible) to get off which is fair considering the damage it does and that thieves have immobilizes all over the place.

Blizz got the class right when it was called a “Rogue”, as far as stealth is concerned. Otherwise, ANet’s version of the rogue is a frustrating class that has a very high skill cap where the best players have learned to infinite stealth on demand, while the rest of us are left wandering, “Why does my stealth only last 5-6 seconds max???”

Not to discredit anyone but…
Rank = Time spent in game. Whether one has shown improvements during said time… is another story.

Ragion.2831:

Griffith.7238:

You people don’t seem to understand overall balance. You can’t nerf something without buffing something in return. Like Zero pointed out with WoW Rogues. They have a decent amount of survivability outside of stealth. This is not the case with GW2 Thieves. They are like literally the squishiest class in the game. If you take away stealth from Thieves without buffing their natural defenses they will be utter garbage. And as someone else mentioned you should focus on kitten like kittened faceroll engies before you even think about trying to change stealth.

Like I wouldn’t even really have an issue with what the OP is suggesting, but the whole way you guys are going about this argument is just kittened. All the stealth haters don’t get that the Thief is one of the hardest classes in this game to play and that without stealth they would get crushed in every fight with ease. Hell just get any class that does made AoE dmg and Thieves get blown up going anywhere near them.

First of all you can nerf without buffing, Anet has done this too many times to count (e.g Flanking strike nerf didnt mean an increase in FS damage or longer evade duration and the latest Might nerf didnt mean a global increase in might duration) If Backstab was hitting 15k without vuln and might stacking, it would be nerfed period, armour wouldnt be simultaneously increased.

Secondly this idea thieves have that if you arent in stealth death is imminent, this sort of thinking is the reason for too many bad thieves I am a Dragon that has been using the thief class in pvp only for the past 4 months, and since day one my build has been an evade style one. I have never used shadow refuge, neither do i spam black powder/heartseeker or cloak and dagger, I also do not run shortbow. Lack of shortbow mobility should mean i should emphasize stealth right? wrong, this is a misconception that has gone on for long enough.

To emphasize my point, i should say again that i mained necro since 2012 so an evade thief is nothing like a necro. I say all this because making stealth slightly less effective absolutely does not mean thieves would be helpless.

I still think active stealth tracking only abilites for engis and stealthless classes should be enough. Even if you can detect where an invisible player is, you cannot target so you can only follow or try to ground target aoe and any thief worth anything can still get away. The only thing is backstab might be a little more difficult (not impossible) to get off which is fair considering the damage it does and that thieves have immobilizes all over the place.

Perhaps I worded some things poorly. I don’t mean that “slightly” reducing the effectiveness of stealth would break Thieves. I meant that removing it from the game kitten many of these mentally unstable people seem to want would most certainly break Thieves. Hence why I said I have no issues with what the OP suggested.

Just because you choose not to use stealth and your build just so happens to be viable doesn’t mean stealth needs to be removed or receive a hard nerf. The type of playstyle that the Thief represents is one where the player can pick and choose their battles. Sure this may seem OP, but it comes at the cost of lack of utility and general tankiness. If they were to add stealth tracking in any form or fashion it would completely ruin stealth and they might as well just take it out of the game at that point. This type of playstyle will always exist in every MMO and I can’t believe people haven’t gotten over this by now. From the outside looking in everything seems so OP and awesome on the Thief, but people don’t see that downside like having kitten Utility(which leads to being passed over for PvE content among other things), and being squishy as all hell. Thieves have arguably the highest skill cap out of all the classes, and I for one am a strong believer that if you master something not many people can it needs to be extremely rewarding. All these people crying for stealth nerfs just spit all over that ideology.

Griffith.7238:

I don’t mean that “slightly” reducing the effectiveness of stealth would break Thieves. I meant that removing it from the game kitten many of these mentally unstable people seem to want would most certainly break Thieves.

don’t insult people on the forums, please.

Pure invisibility is hard to balance and it really shows. As a thief some people see you non stop, because they were still channeling skills when you went stealthed and for other people it’s completely not fair because they have no way to catch you, block you, avoid you or unstealth you.

Out of all the games that even adopted the stealth mechanic, WoW did it best – if rogues are close enough to you, they’re see trough but visible.

But overall I would like to see the mechanic gone from gaming. It simply does not bode well with player versus player and it’s too hard to balance fairly. Heck even single player RPGs (Elder Scrolls) shied away from it, because it could make majority of the content moot and easy to pretty much cheat.

The game is as it is. They won’t change mechanics to do with the class and won’t realistically rebalance it well. But if they instead took mechanic out and replaced it with something else, PvP might be better off.

Also bare in mind that this is not the only mechanic in game that I take issue to and that I’m well aware that the game won’t get drastic changes. So I express my opinion here in a purely theorethical way. However I would like not to be called mentally unstable for it.

Mirta.5029:

Griffith.7238:

I don’t mean that “slightly” reducing the effectiveness of stealth would break Thieves. I meant that removing it from the game kitten many of these mentally unstable people seem to want would most certainly break Thieves.

don’t insult people on the forums, please.

Pure invisibility is hard to balance and it really shows. As a thief some people see you non stop, because they were still channeling skills when you went stealthed and for other people it’s completely not fair because they have no way to catch you, block you, avoid you or unstealth you.

Out of all the games that even adopted the stealth mechanic, WoW did it best – if rogues are close enough to you, they’re see trough but visible.

But overall I would like to see the mechanic gone from gaming. It simply does not bode well with player versus player and it’s too hard to balance fairly. Heck even single player RPGs (Elder Scrolls) shied away from it, because it could make majority of the content moot and easy to pretty much cheat.

The game is as it is. They won’t change mechanics to do with the class and won’t realistically rebalance it well. But if they instead took mechanic out and replaced it with something else, PvP might be better off.

Also bare in mind that this is not the only mechanic in game that I take issue to and that I’m well aware that the game won’t get drastic changes. So I express my opinion here in a purely theorethical way. However I would like not to be called mentally unstable for it.

Well I’m not sure what to call it when someone thinks that Thieves are even in the same league as WoW Rogues or that stealth in WoW is less OP then stealth in GW2. First off WoW Rogues can be super survivable with recup and defensives secondly you get perma stealth in WoW with several easy restealths always available. You get the same restealths in GW2 with the exception that Thieves don’t have even a quarter of the defensive capabilities of a WoW Rogue.

I liked the stealth mechanic in AoC. If there was good light, you were easy to see, and you moved very slowly. The GW2 version, as mentioned above, is not stealth, it’s invisibility (regardless of what it’s called). I don’t expect anything but minor changes to it from ANet, though if there were, the profession should receive some compensation.

Griffith.7238:

Well I’m not sure what to call it when someone thinks that Thieves are even in the same league as WoW Rogues or that stealth in WoW is less OP then stealth in GW2. First off WoW Rogues can be super survivable with recup and defensives secondly you get perma stealth in WoW with several easy restealths always available. You get the same restealths in GW2 with the exception that Thieves don’t have even a quarter of the defensive capabilities of a WoW Rogue.

there’s at least 5 thief builds that use 0 stealth. You can evade. You can teleport. You can blind. Thieves are far from the squishiest class in the game and are far far far better off than WoW rogues.

And I’m sorry but throwing insults at others is NEVER acceptable. Especially when you call people mentally unstable over arguing over a class mechanic in a game. If a game takes that much priority in your life that you will gladly insult someone over even debating changes to it, perhaps you should take a step back for a few hours and come back with a fresh mind.

I’ve always hated stealth mechanics in games, mainly because of how often they’re completely broken. While I won’t go so far and say they’re broken in GW2, they are at the very least, annoyingly cheap. Why GW2 broke away from outstanding gap closers and IMS’s Assassins had in GW1 boggles my mind.