Guild Wars 2

I see my character gaining numbers (levels) but they don’t make me feel more powerful. The problem is that I am downgraded to the level of the area I am currently in.

Being level 20 and almost dying to two level 9 mobs is a terrible feeling. What is the point in leveling if all that work is negated by zone mechanics?

There are two options that would make the experience feel better.

1. Don’t downgrade my level and allow me to one-shot lower level mobs. In this way, I would actually feel more powerful as I leveled and would feel like my work is being rewarded.

or

2. Remove levels and leveling altogether. Don’t allow me to see that meaningless number that taunts me with every pull. I would rather not see any level number on my character at all than to see the green ‘down’ arrow next to an artificially deflated number.

I agree with you, but I think that ship sailed the moment they decided to have as many levels as Wrath of the Lich King, and a directive that stated any expansion would have to increase the cap.

1. is terrible, and the main annoyance I have with most MMOs. #2 is really whats should be done. Horizontal development > vertical development.

I still definitely feel more powerful going back to earlier zones than I did when I was first there. I also enjoy the fact that no area ever feels totally useless to me (well, beyond the basic issue of being at cap and not really needing the direct XP for much).

I believe the Idea behind leveling in guild wars 2 is to give you a sense of progression while not trivializing older (lower level) content.

Not really, because

1. It makes lower level content playable all the time. Which made sense to me the other day when my friend bought the game, and i could do events with him, without taking away his XP, and still gaining a fairly reasonable amount of it for myself because of the downscaling.

2. You do get more powerful, because as you level up, it allows you to wear better gear with higher stats and more stats at that. So when youre level 60 and get scaled to level 10, youl be much more powerful than a level 20 scaled down to level 10. Your armor and all your stats are your power when you are downscaled. As far as i know, the only thing they downscale is how much health you have, and the raw damage is scaled, so you still get extra damage from your stats while being downscaled.

Leetimus.5786:

Not really, because

1. It makes lower level content playable all the time. Which made sense to me the other day when my friend bought the game, and i could do events with him, without taking away his XP, and still gaining a fairly reasonable amount of it for myself because of the downscaling.

2. You do get more powerful, because as you level up, it allows you to wear better gear with higher stats and more stats at that. So when youre level 60 and get scaled to level 10, youl be much more powerful than a level 20 scaled down to level 10. Your armor and all your stats are your power when you are downscaled. As far as i know, the only thing they downscale is how much health you have, and the raw damage is scaled, so you still get extra damage from your stats while being downscaled.

Pretty much this right here ^^

Downscaling is a vastly improved version of the traditional leveling concept.

I like the down leveling. You are still powerful enough to demolish low level mobs yet not so powerful that you are one shotting everything. I remember farming in the starter zones in Guild Wars 1, one shotting mobs. It made farming easy but boring. That can only be done for so long before it gets tedious.

Apparently early on they did try removing levels all together, but the alpha testers didn’t like it. I’m not quite sure why, but I think partially it was probably just habit from other games.

Personally I agree that the actual level numbers are largely meaningless but I still think levelling up makes a difference. A level 20 character down-levelled to 9 will be stronger than a character who is genuinely level 9.

You have many more skills available and from level 15 onwards you can get bonuses from your traits as well (your stats are scaled down, but you still get the perks, which is why I said level 15 instead of 11). You’re also much more likely to have a full set of gear with stats which fit your build and all the upgrade slots filled.

I find it’s very noticeable when I go back to things I found difficult the first time I did them (at the appropriate level). I often find I can get through it much faster with less trouble. Sometimes I even feel like I don’t even need to try.

I much prefer it to either being locked out of lower level areas once you out level them, or having high level characters running around demolishing everything and making it impossible for anyone trying to level to actually hit anything.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Leetimus.5786:

Not really, because

1. It makes lower level content playable all the time. Which made sense to me the other day when my friend bought the game, and i could do events with him, without taking away his XP, and still gaining a fairly reasonable amount of it for myself because of the downscaling.

2. You do get more powerful, because as you level up, it allows you to wear better gear with higher stats and more stats at that. So when youre level 60 and get scaled to level 10, youl be much more powerful than a level 20 scaled down to level 10. Your armor and all your stats are your power when you are downscaled. As far as i know, the only thing they downscale is how much health you have, and the raw damage is scaled, so you still get extra damage from your stats while being downscaled.

Pretty much this right here ^^

Downscaling is a vastly improved version of the traditional leveling concept.

I agree with this as well.

You’re only level 20. By level 80 you’ll be breezing through 1-15 content.

Levelling is actually making you weaker if you don’t upgrade gear.

Say you’re in a level 15 zone. You’re currently level 23, downgraded to level 15. If you hit level 24, you’re still downgraded to 15, so if you don’t have new gear, your stats go down. Fun!

I dont think the trait stats go down when you are downleveled so you would have those as well. Besides, a level 80 character can go to a 1-15 area and get items that sell for 3-4 times more than what a 1-15 character would typically get in that area.

1. Nope.
2. Levelling is a pacing tool.

bcd.4352:

Levelling is actually making you weaker if you don’t upgrade gear.

Say you’re in a level 15 zone. You’re currently level 23, downgraded to level 15. If you hit level 24, you’re still downgraded to 15, so if you don’t have new gear, your stats go down. Fun!

Why wouldn’t you upgrade your gear?

You don’t even need to buy it. I went all the way from 1-80 using only drops and Personal Story rewards and at worst one piece of my gear was 10 levels behind. Most of it was usually 2-3 levels behind. If you’re being practically handed gear why not use it?

Down leveling is one of the best features this game has. You are more powerful than you was before, because you have more skills/traits and have a better hang of your character overall(hopefully).
We can’t have “no levels at all.” Because there would be newbies running around and getting massacred in Orr, because lv 80 content is more challenging than lv 1 content. That’s also why we have level caps on dungeons and AR at fractals.

Danikat.8537:

bcd.4352:

Levelling is actually making you weaker if you don’t upgrade gear.

Say you’re in a level 15 zone. You’re currently level 23, downgraded to level 15. If you hit level 24, you’re still downgraded to 15, so if you don’t have new gear, your stats go down. Fun!

Why wouldn’t you upgrade your gear?

You don’t even need to buy it. I went all the way from 1-80 using only drops and Personal Story rewards and at worst one piece of my gear was 10 levels behind. Most of it was usually 2-3 levels behind. If you’re being practically handed gear why not use it?

He didn’t say he wouldn’t upgrade, that’s a strawman.

What happens is, you get relatively weaker and more dependant on your gear as you level up. A level 30 in Fine Strong gear does more DPS than a level 80 in Masterwork Berserker gear, against 1-15 zone enemies.

Danikat.8537:

bcd.4352:

Levelling is actually making you weaker if you don’t upgrade gear.

Say you’re in a level 15 zone. You’re currently level 23, downgraded to level 15. If you hit level 24, you’re still downgraded to 15, so if you don’t have new gear, your stats go down. Fun!

Why wouldn’t you upgrade your gear?

You don’t even need to buy it. I went all the way from 1-80 using only drops and Personal Story rewards and at worst one piece of my gear was 10 levels behind. Most of it was usually 2-3 levels behind. If you’re being practically handed gear why not use it?

I’m slightly foreign so my English isn’t amazing. Let me try to explain again. I’m not suggesting that you not upgrade gear, that’s silly. All I’m saying is when you level up, if you don’t have new gear, you will be weaker than you were before levelling.

If you are level 23, with level 23 green gear, and you level up to 24, but don’t have new gear, downscaling will make you weaker. Try it out if you want to see. Your stats will decrease when you level, since downscaling is percentage based.

bcd.4352:

If you are level 23, with level 23 green gear, and you level up to 24, but don’t have new gear, downscaling will make you weaker. Try it out if you want to see. Your stats will decrease when you level, since downscaling is percentage based.

Then make sure you keep your equipment up to date. You don’t have to rely on drops or local karma merchants, you can buy armor from the TP every few levels for a few silver, usually just a little more than the vendor price. Around 60 or so it does get a little expensive if you’re using the popular stat combos and runes, etc. but you’ll still be so much more powerful than a natural level 10 or 20 that it won’t make much of a difference.

My guardian is nearly 80 now, and in level 70 armor. She’s pretty tough in level 60+ zones and so hard to kill in lower levels that sometimes I forget to target a new enemy after my current target dies. She stands there for a few seconds while the mobs attack her. Her health goes to maybe 95% with each hit and regens to full before they can attack again.

Danikat.8537:

I much prefer it to … having high level characters running around demolishing everything and making it impossible for anyone trying to level to actually hit anything.

The real reason for these kinds of complaints…

Downscaling makes it more realistic. Your character isn’t gaining levels to become super strong, your character is becoming more skillful.

At one point, GW2 supposedly didn’t have levels. The problem without having them though is that you don’t feel you’re progressing and you can’t get a sense of where you’re supposed to be. If it’s your first time, you can’t tell if the game is just naturally hard or if you’re somewhere you’re not supposed to be. Of course, you could explore to figure it out, but many people probably wouldn’t and instead call the game too difficult and simply quit. On the progression side, some people simply play to level. Having no levels would mean they’re already done.

Having no levels is ok if done right, but GW2 doesn’t feature full action combat with every mob being properly telegraphed.

Downscaling is, honestly, one of the best things about this game. When I first heard about it, I thought I’d hate downscaling. But now I’ve actually played with it, it’s awesome, and a mechanic that definitely shouldn’t go away – and nor should levelling at all.

Levelling is a way of gating areas and content. It’s also a way of gating skills and traits. For those purposes, it’s entirely valid. As you level, even playing in downscaled areas you will still be more powerful than your downscaled level will otherwise indicate because you have a wider variety of minor and major traits available to you.

Assuming you keep your gear even marginally up to date, that is.

There have been RPG systems and games that removed leveling, and they haven’t worked. Almost everything has been tried in one form or another, actually (and before computers became the main platform – pen and paper systems tried it all years ago). As soon as you start building a game system without levels, you’ll understand why levels are such a powerful core mechanic.

For me personally, the GW2 experiment with changing your levels as you enter particularly leveled areas does obviate the entire purpose of levels. In this I agree with you – their system is at cross purposes on this point. I know lots of people playing the game love it, but more don’t like it and don’t play for that reason. More importantly, at the design level it pits character progression against the content in an inelegant and non-intuitive way IMO. And inelegant mechanics will always continue to create problems as they play out. One of those problems in this case is the logical result that levels feel pointless, so why have them at all? If you remove them, you have an entirely skill-based system, and you jump into the deep design issues those systems continue to have (they get murky and unsatisfying quickly, and incredibly difficult to manage and balance; there are no longer any archetypes in the world for players to identify with).

I’m a big fan of class distinction and levels, and small numbers (modern CPRG systems have gone the Japanese way and made all the numbers huge, and so less meaningful). It’s time games went back to go forward, in my opinion.

tolkien.6317:

There have been RPG systems and games that removed leveling, and they haven’t worked. Almost everything has been tried in one form or another, actually (and before computers became the main platform – pen and paper systems tried it all years ago). As soon as you start building a game system without levels, you’ll understand why levels are such a powerful core mechanic.

For me personally, the GW2 experiment with changing your levels as you enter particularly leveled areas does obviate the entire purpose of levels. In this I agree with you – their system is at cross purposes on this point. I know lots of people playing the game love it, but more don’t like it and don’t play for that reason. More importantly, at the design level it pits character progression against the content in an inelegant way IMO. And inelegant mechanics always continue to create problems as they play out. One of them is this case is the logical result that levels feel pointless, so why have them at all?

I’m a big fan of class distinction and levels, and small numbers (modern CPRG systems have gone the Japanese way and made all the numbers huge, and so less meaningful). It’s time games went back to go forward, in my opinion.

I don’t think this is true. I think many more people like the downleveling than not. And the reason why is obvious – it is both more realistic, and it avoids the problem plaguing many MMOs of content being backwards-gated. WoW is horrible about this – at any given time 90% of the content of the game is utterly useless and might as well not exist.

That said, I do agree about small numbers- I hate the super-scaling that occurs in modern games. It is one of my least favorite things about WoW and honestly it isnt’ a whole lot better in this game.

Level 80s in full exotics can stomp all over low level zones. I think they should make down levelling even harsher.

Einlanzer.1627:

I don’t think this is true. I think many more people like the downleveling than not. And the reason why is obvious – it is both more realistic, and it avoids the problem plaguing many MMOs of content being backwards-gated. WoW is horrible about this – at any given time 90% of the content of the game is utterly useless and might as well not exist.

That said, I do agree about small numbers- I hate the super-scaling that occurs in modern games. It is one of my least favorite things about WoW and honestly it isnt’ a whole lot better in this game.

Yeah there will always be personal preference with this stuff, so it’s not that anything is right or wrong really. The useless older content thing in WoW is an outworking of their larger design issues (and the many bad and trivializing decisions they made in that area in my opinion). In a game like EverQuest the linear progression opened up huge areas of new gameplay in revisting old content just for the thrill of dominating it, helping lower level characters, getting that item you could never get before etc.

This admittedly brought other issues (bottom feeding), but these are much smaller issues than the one’s you get otherwise. Another modern design mistake is to go to exorbitant lengths to fix what are in reality small problems, and create a monster (for a beautiful example of this see EverQuest 2’s “answer” to player griefing – locking people out from any meaningful interaction, and so undermining the core reason people play MMOs in the first place).

Down-leveling also fundamentally reduces the value of higher level characters versus lower levels. Max level used to be an achievement in itself, and seeing a max level character created a feeling of awe and the desire to get there yourself. Now it’s what everyone races to in order to start the real game. So much has been lost in gameplay as result :/

If you say de-leveling removes that as it keeps all content “viable”, then I say why have levels at all, and back we got to the beginning. All GW2 has done is keep the notion of levels, and shifted much of the gating to other things (skills and gear). That’s a mechanic that works at cross purposes to the deleveling, and pits the systems against each other.

What you lose with down-leveling is the sensation of progress and power you gain from leveling. This is an extremely potent gameplay motivation that has been misunderstood and undervalued a lot in recent years. It’s not a “realistic” mechanic, but it works within a game. This can be attenuated with other things (skills for example, multiple opponent rules such as systems like Role Master had) in a nicer way.

Anyway, now we’re entering geekdom and the minutiae of RPG nerd interest in RPG systems Your comment that there are many more that like the deleveling is probably true, but only within the GW2 fan base. The wider MMO games community (and particularly RPG players) don’t like it as much as the alternative. It’s a self filtering thing within the game, naturally; those that don’t like it just don’t play.

We have leveling because people in general like to have their characters progress. That basic feeling of gratification drives a lot of people, and is why games that require long periods of dedicated play to gain one level are pretty much passe (well, in the West, anyway).

We have down-leveling for a lot of reasons, some of which have been stated by other posters. Almost dying (but not doing so) seems like a victory to me. You want to just stomp them with no effort? Well, that is basically what my down-level experience is. On my level 13 guardian wearing L10 gear, down-scaled to level 9, I am 2-3 shotting level 9 mobs. Guardians, are a strong class, but my recent experience with a new necro was the same (and no, I was without minions).

tl;dr

Monster Hunter in PSP didn’t have a leveling system and yet it was pretty popular.. I think the game feels awkward that it tries to incorporate a similar idea in a traditional leveling game.. I’m hopeful that Anet will find a way to balance things out.

If u’re a high level char and got killed by lower level mobs when u visit lower level maps it’s a Learn 2 Play issue.

I liked the idea of zone by zone down-leveling until I actually began to play the game. It seemed like a great mechanic on paper.

Now that I’ve tried it, zone by zone down-leveling has caused me to lose all motivation to progress. There is no sense of accomplishment or pride in my character. It feels like the game has thrown away all my hours of hard work when I pass through a lower level zone, constantly running because I don’t feel like struggling with or being killed by mobs that are half my (true) level.

It doesn’t matter what down-leveling was meant to correct on the technical side, the feeling (a sense of character pride, power, accomplishment) is what matters. And right now, at least to me, it feels absolutely horrible. My character feels weak. I may as well just park him in The Grove and pretend to be a commoner or a merchant.

Elbegast.6970:

I liked the idea of zone by zone down-leveling until I actually began to play the game. It seemed like a great mechanic on paper.

Now that I’ve tried it, zone by zone down-leveling has caused me to lose all motivation to progress. There is no sense of accomplishment or pride in my character. It feels like the game has thrown away all my hours of hard work when I pass through a lower level zone, constantly running because I don’t feel like struggling with or being killed by mobs that are half my (true) level.

It doesn’t matter what down-leveling was meant to correct on the technical side, the feeling (a sense of character pride, power, accomplishment) is what matters. And right now, at least to me, it feels absolutely horrible. My character feels weak. I may as well just park him in The Grove and pretend to be a commoner or a merchant.

Here, experiencially, is the clear reason why I say de-leveling doesn’t work for many players. For GW2 it’s a moot point as it has embraced it and it’s not going to change. But for future games, I say take careful note.

I’m just glad that I won’t over-level and miss content because I am too high level to enjoy it properly. That is one thing that ’ve found to be really annoying in games with a level system. Heck, when I played FFX by the time I got to the final boss I was effortlessly killing everything in one hit.

Leo Paul.1659:

tl;dr

Monster Hunter in PSP didn’t have a leveling system and yet it was pretty popular.. I think the game feels awkward that it tries to incorporate a similar idea in a traditional leveling game.. I’m hopeful that Anet will find a way to balance things out.

A different sort of game, and there are several things Monster Hunter does which wouldn’t mesh very well with the rest of Guild Wars 2. Such as the laughability of the Random Number God determining whether or not your gear is going to improve, or the “Best in Slot” items being really hard to earn be virtue of materials being randomly dropped.

(Big E Dragon Jewel, Lao Shan Ruby . . .)

Not that I wouldn’t mind playing the Monster Hunter MMO if it ever is made available. But it wouldn’t be Guild Wars.

Leveling serves a number of functions in GW2:
- You “unlock” viability in new zones, according to a general curve of scaling difficulty and a rough correlation with the suggested story arc
- You get access to profession skills, traits, and even stats, gradually — allowing you to accustom yourself to a repertoire of growing complexity and potential over time
- It gives players a general sense of direction and goal-setting, rather than just dumping you into a huge game without any clue of what to do or where to go
- It prevents players from rolling a new alt and immediately gearing it in full exotics from the first second
- Zones by “level” partially ensures that at least some segment of the player population is actively exploring the area along with you
- In general, all these factors combine to let players learn their profession (or just the ins and outs of the game) over time, rather than demanding that newbies take full command of all resources from minute one.

Rather than worrying about whether or not a level 80 should be out one-shotting boars in Queensdale, instead think of each experience level as being a new “stage” of potential that is being opened to you. In some ways it is a new tier of difficulty, but more than that it is another slice of the world that is now available, and another degree of your character’s refinement you can take advantage of. It’s not about your superiority over “lower” characters, it’s about how you rise to meet new challenges. In that sense, I think raising the level cap is a fine thing to do. It can be a way to signify content that is — if only symbolically — “beyond” level 80, but not “above” the rest of the game.

Levels in gw2 are completely redundant.
I understand unlocking traits and skill points, yeah okay have that EXP bar to do that like what they do for TSW and the ability wheel.

But the whole level thing just restricts you from wearing your exotics, whats the point though?

You still get down leveled where the exotics still barely do anything.

Because it forces you to grind for more levels before progressing to your next storyline?

Eh? what happened to play how I want to play, I want to do my story then explore the world, why do I have to clear a couple of hearts before I can go on to the next story?

What about those times the Story dude goes, “And please hurry” and you have to level up before you go and keep them waiting… breaks immersion.

Levels are just arbitrary numbers, even more so in Gw2 and should just be done away with.

Levels are redundant at all. In MMOs it is claimed that you have to grow into your character, getting an instant max level makes you somehow a bad player because you don’t know your class. Yet when I first learned chess, I was told the rules about all pieces and thrown right into the action. With counter-strike I can buy the AK and AWP in the first game I play. Why is this somehow not possible in MMO games?

The only reason I can make up, is that MMO players are somehow very bad gamers overall and require exponentially more practice than FPS or chess players. I don’t believe that and therefor levels have to go.

marnick.4305:

Levels are redundant at all. In MMOs it is claimed that you have to grow into your character, getting an instant max level makes you somehow a bad player because you don’t know your class. Yet when I first learned chess, I was told the rules about all pieces and thrown right into the action. With counter-strike I can buy the AK and AWP in the first game I play. Why is this somehow not possible in MMO games?

The only reason I can make up, is that MMO players are somehow very bad gamers overall and require exponentially more practice than FPS or chess players. I don’t believe that and therefor levels have to go.

Im not gonna argue with you there seeing as how many Pugs ive been with wipe at kholer in AC despite his level of ease.

The learning curve should be up to the player themselves not the characters.

Before I picked up an ele, everyone says, oh eles are hard to play they’ve got so many skills you need to be aware of all their cool downs, then I rerolled an ele..

I’m like.. holy crap this is even easier than a ranger!

Rizzy.8293:

marnick.4305:

Levels are redundant at all. In MMOs it is claimed that you have to grow into your character, getting an instant max level makes you somehow a bad player because you don’t know your class. Yet when I first learned chess, I was told the rules about all pieces and thrown right into the action. With counter-strike I can buy the AK and AWP in the first game I play. Why is this somehow not possible in MMO games?

The only reason I can make up, is that MMO players are somehow very bad gamers overall and require exponentially more practice than FPS or chess players. I don’t believe that and therefor levels have to go.

Im not gonna argue with you there seeing as how many Pugs ive been with wipe at kholer in AC despite his level of ease.

You’re not arguing because you know I’m right. Kholer is like a chess puzzle involving castling or en passant. It can take a while to figure out such puzzles even though you know all the rules. I never die on Kholer anymore, but the first few times were really difficult. You should help newbies instead of looking down at them.

1. No, just no, high level players would kill off half the population of low level zones and low level players would have problems leveling or participating in events. High level players don’t go to do low level events you say? How about map events? The Maw? Ele? A low of people would get no recognition for participating because they couldn’t even get a hit in.
2. Bad idea as well. How many people would attempt to kill dragons when they can’t even kill a bear? Low level areas train you, prepare you, so you could go up. It doesn’t mean that if you managed to get a dragon down getting a bear down will be a flick of a finger.

marnick.4305:

Rizzy.8293:

marnick.4305:

Levels are redundant at all. In MMOs it is claimed that you have to grow into your character, getting an instant max level makes you somehow a bad player because you don’t know your class. Yet when I first learned chess, I was told the rules about all pieces and thrown right into the action. With counter-strike I can buy the AK and AWP in the first game I play. Why is this somehow not possible in MMO games?

The only reason I can make up, is that MMO players are somehow very bad gamers overall and require exponentially more practice than FPS or chess players. I don’t believe that and therefor levels have to go.

Im not gonna argue with you there seeing as how many Pugs ive been with wipe at kholer in AC despite his level of ease.

You’re not arguing because you know I’m right. Kholer is like a chess puzzle involving castling or en passant. It can take a while to figure out such puzzles even though you know all the rules. I never die on Kholer anymore, but the first few times were really difficult. You should help newbies instead of looking down at them.

And thats why I say, keep your eye on his arm, when he raises and it starts to glow, dodge.
If they keep failing that queue after 3 tries, Im not gonna waste my time :>

Elbegast.6970:

1. Don’t downgrade my level and allow me to one-shot lower level mobs. In this way, I would actually feel more powerful as I leveled and would feel like my work is being rewarded.

No. If anything, the more you downgrade, the more serious the effect should be, so as not to trivialize content. Keeping the whole world relevant is important, one-shot lower level mobs is terrible old mmo design that needs to disappear forever.

maddoctor.2738:

Elbegast.6970:

1. Don’t downgrade my level and allow me to one-shot lower level mobs. In this way, I would actually feel more powerful as I leveled and would feel like my work is being rewarded.

No. If anything, the more you downgrade, the more serious the effect should be, so as not to trivialize content. Keeping the whole world relevant is important, one-shot lower level mobs is terrible old mmo design that needs to disappear forever.

In Lord of the Rings, after almost 80 years of combat experience, Aragorn is almost killed by, of all things, a worg. A typical mob for a lvl1 zone in many games. That’s how it should be.

marnick.4305:

In Lord of the Rings, after almost 80 years of combat experience, Aragorn is almost killed by, of all things, a worg. A typical mob for a lvl1 zone in many games. That’s how it should be.

Firstly, that (horrid) scene was added by Peter Jackson. It’s not in the books, and doesn’t belong in the story except as a pretty arrogant director fabrication. Secondly, just because wargs in “many games” are Level 1 mobs doesn’t mean anything except game designers weren’t being literal. In The Middle Earth they were always nasty and dangerous beasts capable of ripping anyone apart, so it doesn’t translate at all.

If you were going to put Tolkien wargs into the MMO setting, they would be high level mobs that even the most experience adventurers would have trouble with. It doesn’t affect your point, but it’s a bad example. Your point has already been addressed more than once in posts above (tl;dr many people disagree for various good reasons, but we get why you say that).

tolkien.6317:

marnick.4305:

In Lord of the Rings, after almost 80 years of combat experience, Aragorn is almost killed by, of all things, a worg. A typical mob for a lvl1 zone in many games. That’s how it should be.

Firstly, that (horrid) scene was added by Peter Jackson. It’s not in the books, and doesn’t belong in the story except as a pretty arrogant director fabrication. Secondly, just because wargs in “many games” are Level 1 mobs doesn’t mean anything. In LoTR they were always nasty and dangerous beasts capable of ripping anyone apart, so it doesn’t translate at all.

Wargs by definition are ferocious, nasty and dangerous beasts, yet in virtually no campaign setting will you find any above level 5. A DnD warg is challenge rating 2, a dire warg maybe 4 if you push his stats a bit.
Don’t forget that “commoners” in games are usually implied to be far less powerful than any lvl1 character, who’s already exceptional by birth. Even most adventurers never pass lvl5 and by lvl 10 in dnd or lvl50 in GW2 you’re considered almost godlike.

Even if you don’t accept the scene in the movie, it still shows a creature that most experienced adventurers would have a lot of trouble with. It is such a ferocious lvl2 animal, that even Aragorn has a problem with it. Now tell me why that isn’t accurate, regardless of the books.
When is the last time you grappled an alligator or lion? Same level of ferocity, same level in MMO games. Last time I checked, Queensdale had quite a few alligators.

If you’re going to put Tolkien wargs into the MMO setting, they would be high level mobs. It doesn’t affect your point, but it’s a bad example. Your point has already been addressed more than once in posts above (tl;dr many people disagree for various good reasons, but we get why you say that).

As I’ve pointed out, a lvl5 animal is already pretty high all things considered, and since a warg is not supernatural, it wouldn’t require a very high level. That’s why warg-like creatures can be found in any zone, starting at lvl1, despite being ferocious and dangerous things.

Only thing I’m saying is, regardless of experience, dangerous creature remains dangerous. After years of experience, even big game hunters wouldn’t consider catching a mere lion easy. For Jef Geeraerts (RL writer), that was still a big achievement.

I agree, and I’m not sure what we’re discussing now… What you’ve done is point out the problem with levels in GW2, not the original function of levels in D&D. Part of the problem you’ve shown is with the high numbers in modern games (level 80 etc.) I mentioned that in my first reply – it’s another reason these high numbers are bad IMO.

I think that if you can’t die, really can’t, then the zone is pointless and it might as well not exist for you at all. Sure the first time you go back to an MMO and see all the creatures grayed out and not attacking, you think..this is cool. I love this.

Until you realize your game has just become a whole lot smaller. For me, that’s the tragedy of most MMOs. By making early zones obsolete, you make the playable world much smaller.

Not to mention the potential for griefing. There was an event in Rift, a werewolf Rift, that you had to lure the wolves to special stones so you could kill them. Higher level players would come in, kill the stuff in one shot before you could lead it to the stones. They’d grief the event so you couldn’t finish it.

Even as it is, it’s hard in starter zones for new characters, if there are a bunch of high level guys around. No need to make it any worse for them.

There are other ways around the problem though without artificially deleveling. In older systems like Rolemaster, the more of any mob you fight simultaneously, the more dangerous it is. A single rat is trivial, but 30 of them could pose a serious risk. It’s not a flat level vs. level check (i.e. greying out a mob). It’s dependent upon whether you’re attacked from the front or behind or the side, or above, the size and number of the mob attacking, the type and speed of attack, the type of defense etc. etc. These things are tedious with dice, but simple with computers. If it’s realism you’re after there are much better ways to do it. Deleveling is an inelegant solution that creates as many problems as it solves (IMO).

If you are dying to a level 9 mob as a level 20 character even if downgraded. You are doing something wrong.

Oceangrave.9657:

If you are dying to a level 9 mob as a level 20 character even if downgraded. You are doing something wrong.

I think what Anet is trying to do is to make this exact statement as inexact as possible.

The leveling is there only to establish some kind of progression. You level up, you gain access to better gear and you can safely adventure into new areas.

You’re saying that downleveling takes away the sense of progression. Well, I can say that same about things that do not depend on levels. Let’s picture the game identical, except that your starting level was 80. What has this changed? Here’s a quick list:

• All gear with 0-2 mods has been turned useless
• Skill progression down massively due to having instant access to all utility slots and the elite slot
• Gear progression down massively due to only having to go through white>fine>masterwork>rare>exotic on level 80

In essence, the only sense of progression you would get is from acquiring the next tier of gear or acquiring skill points. Also, since you’re now level 80, there would be very little point in exploring the world, as you could go anywhere. You can bet that most people would find the shortest possible route to Orr and unlock all of the dungeon waypoints and pretty much never go anywhere else.

On the other hand, having levels but not having downleveling causes the standard issues of higher levels meaning less to do in lower zones and the endless boredom of a high level player playing with a low level friend.

Downleveling results in all the zones staying enjoyable and it allows you to participate in the lower level content without trivializing it for the others. And that promotes the social aspect of an MMORPG, which I think is pretty important to ANet.