Guild Wars 2

Zeldain.5710:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

I think this is an excellent basis for the foundational problems with the game. Try and read it objectively and see if you agree.

Half way crappy.
If you need someone to point you to the next area even if it has levels written on it, you’re outright dumb.
If you don’t manage to craft, you’re dumb as well. There’s lots of things to complain about, but half of what this article covers is a themepark crybabby that can’t ever use his own head when playing.

Amra.6028:

Zeldain.5710:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

I think this is an excellent basis for the foundational problems with the game. Try and read it objectively and see if you agree.

Half way crappy.
If you need someone to point you to the next area even if it has levels written on it, you’re outright dumb.
If you don’t manage to craft, you’re dumb as well. There’s lots of things to complain about, but half of what this article covers is a themepark crybabby that can’t ever use his own head when playing.

Hint: it’s the fault of the game, not the player.

Zeldain

While I am not a fan of GW2 anymore, I do have to say, that the game does kinda direct you the next zone. As c’rudely’ as Amra puts it, The zone levels are labeled on the map so you know where you can go next, and as well, once you get a zone completion, I do recall getting a piece of mail from the Tyrian explorers association (or some such) recommending the next in places to go.

I have read this (and responded a few times) this entire thread with much intrest and much of what people have had to say has been some interesting (and infuriating) view points.

One of the more infuriating view points is that if ‘we’ who do not like GW2 lack of ‘roles’ are somehow inferior players or bad players who need to be tank/healer/DPS WoW clones to be ‘good’. I think these people who view us ‘roleless’ dislikers forget that we CAME TO THIS GAME BECAUSE OF THIS. We knew going into the game that there would be no ‘traditional’ trinity roles. It’s not like I picked this up and went: “Hey! Another WoW clone…COOL!” (btw, I NEVER PLAYED WOW)

However, as someone else stated (that I agree with) that what sounded good on paper, failed in application. This free form, roleless system just doesn’t work. There is no synergy between classes, no ‘other’ forms of roles that classes can ‘kinda’ fit into and such limiting builds that are passable to work with, it just seems that ‘group’ dynamics fails. In solo situations (SOLO…mind you) this system works, albeit limitedly.

The combat is very fluid, the dodging system is nice, however, in PvE the reason this gets so boring, so repeatative, so….tiring is because every encounter is treated like an e-sport PvP scenario where you are dodging and running around mobs to get out of the ‘frontal’ cone, and after the 20th or so mob, you get ‘bored’ of this and revert to the ‘standrightwhereyouareandspam1’ mentality that this game is equally flamed for. And through this boredom, people tend to wonder if this system was the right move for the game.

Perhaps in sPvP, it was. No healing means that these large health pools that everyone has can get bursted down, and whittled away without the fear of some healer refilling that erroneously large pool and wasting all your effort. In short TTK vs TTL goes up, which is more enjoyable than trying to kill a bunker guardian with a pocket monk. This is why the dynamic of the healer was…removed.

However, for those who say that dungeons don’t need healers because once you learn the dance, to dodge, to move out of the red circles…yeah, I get it. However, the mobs themselves do an erroneously large amount of damage (only if you stand there and take it….) but that is not true. They do an ENORMOUS amount of damage, they hit too hard, the fights seem to be controled chaos (running around in circles panicking and hitting ‘6’ whenever it comes up, or reviving downed allies) while the other 4 members spastically pump out as much DPS as they can before group member with agro dies.

Having a way to ‘pass the buck’ or have a damage sponge absorber, and a health pool restorer is usually prefered (by some) simply because noone wants to crawl through a dungeon treating EVERY mob like a sPvP encounter, dodging that particuarly nasty hit that the mob can spam every 2 seconds (but we can’t dodge every 2 seconds) running around in tight spaces to avoid that frontal, yadda yadda, for every step along the path. Again, I get that some people find this fun, but again, for some, the boredom of treating every encounter like an e-sport sPvP scenario drives down the true fun of the game and I particularly get bored of it and begin to sit in one place and spam one, because, quite honestly, if I wanna do sPvP, I have a venue for that. I don’t want to treat my dungeons like that.

That, is why I feel that the lack of a trinity system didn’t work for me. Not because I am some rote mindless WoW addict, but because my whole gaming experience should be fun, and getting carpal tunnel syndrome constantly circle strafing and constantly hitting the dodge button and blowing every CD under the sun to stay alive against normal TRASH mobs isn’t as fun as I would have hoped.

There is a reason PvEnviroment is purportedly easy. BECAUSE it should be, the mobs are supposed to be AI, following a predictable script, and you don’t NEED to circle strafe and spam dodges because it should be unneccessary. Dungeons should be a higher skill because more ‘tactical’ placement and more teamwork should be involved, and PvP…well, that is always a different scenario.

Zeldain.5710:

Hint: it’s the fault of the game, not the player.

In response to comment about area levels (where to go next), and crafting:

Why is having parts of the game that requires you to work stuff out for yourself a bad thing?

" The game doesn’t give you a chance to understand why Rytlock and Logan dislike each other; they just do."

Its hard to take that writer seriously when they don’t know what they are talking about.
The game covers this.

Zeldain.5710:

Amra.6028:

Zeldain.5710:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

I think this is an excellent basis for the foundational problems with the game. Try and read it objectively and see if you agree.

Half way crappy.
If you need someone to point you to the next area even if it has levels written on it, you’re outright dumb.
If you don’t manage to craft, you’re dumb as well. There’s lots of things to complain about, but half of what this article covers is a themepark crybabby that can’t ever use his own head when playing.

Hint: it’s the fault of the game, not the player.

The maps are labeled by level.
There are roads that lead you to the zone entrances
Story of the hearts and DEs take you to the edges.
The only thing more they could do is play your character for you.

Amra.6028:

Zeldain.5710:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

I think this is an excellent basis for the foundational problems with the game. Try and read it objectively and see if you agree.

Half way crappy.
If you need someone to point you to the next area even if it has levels written on it, you’re outright dumb.
If you don’t manage to craft, you’re dumb as well. There’s lots of things to complain about, but half of what this article covers is a themepark crybabby that can’t ever use his own head when playing.

Totally agreed. Modern MMO players totally forgot that such a game was also about exploring and using basic brain functions.

Dunno about anyone else, but i managed to overlook the area around Ebonhawk while playing my first toon. end result was that i scoured the starter areas for just about every race until i wandered in there by chance while poking around the nearby higher level charr area.

teviko.6049:

That, is why I feel that the lack of a trinity system didn’t work for me. Not because I am some rote mindless WoW addict, but because my whole gaming experience should be fun, and getting carpal tunnel syndrome constantly circle strafing and constantly hitting the dodge button and blowing every CD under the sun to stay alive against normal TRASH mobs isn’t as fun as I would have hoped.

There is a reason PvEnviroment is purportedly easy. BECAUSE it should be, the mobs are supposed to be AI, following a predictable script, and you don’t NEED to circle strafe and spam dodges because it should be unneccessary. Dungeons should be a higher skill because more ‘tactical’ placement and more teamwork should be involved, and PvP…well, that is always a different scenario.

I can see how different people can have different opinions.. but I really don’t see the point of having most enemies being so worthless that you can defeat them while half unconscious. If the enemies are easy, boring and uninteresting, then really what is the point?

I’ll just chalk it up to a difference in preference, but honestly I really liked BWE1 enemies a whole lot more. Random enemies in Beta Weekend One could kick the kitten out of any random current GW2 baddies. Enemies are already enough of a snoozefest with the current level of difficulty. There are plenty of other games out there that you can play while mostly asleep, to many people’s understanding GW2 was explicitly not going to be this normal boring style.

Randulf.7614:

I disagreed with the comments about being directionless vs levelling. If anything that’s a great strength to us casual players. Being able to wander off and not be prompted where to go is a huge selling point for me and not something I’d personally want changed. Level based rewards? Yes, that would make more sense, and I could see that being implemented down the line.

I have not enjoyed exploring so much in a game since EQ first came out. The world feels large and there is a lot of neat areas to take in, even out side POI. I haven’t even felt the urge to take any character to 80, for once I am enjoying the journey, and taking my time.

A little disappointed at the article. I don’t think that the author did there research on some of the topics, and I feel he was presenting the article in a biased manner.

With specific regards to the discussion of out-leveling gear in zones. I will refer to the Patch Notes for November 15, 2012.

• The amount of loot that drops for downscaled players has been increased. You should now be able to receive level-equivalent loot until you are fighting at a downscaled level that is less than 2/3 of your actual level. You should also receive loot a greater percentage of the time as well as receiving a greater percentage of experience, gold, and karma. For level 80 characters, this means level 55+ areas will be able to drop level 80 gear and give about 75% or so of the other rewards. Previously, these areas would give level 77 gear at best and closer to 60% or so of your rewards.

You will still get level appropriate gear even after you “out-leveled” your zone.

I also have a particular problem with the statement, “it’s far easier to just ignore your personal story” when talking about the flow from region to region.

I’ll add my bias to it too, since the author obviously did, I found myself wanting to follow the Personal Story and move me from zone to zone. Yes, the game doesn’t make you do it, but if you are actually getting involved with the game and the stories that are being told, you will want to move from zone to zone. Just because the game doesn’t make you, doesn’t mean that it is a bad model. Anet did a great job of letting players play how they want, and the Personal Story is a great addition.

Overall, thumbs down on the article.

I mostly agree with the article. Specially DE’s being lacking and group dynamics within a dungeon being a clusterfest.

If you look at my past posting history, I keep ranting for Anet to introduce mission quests a la GW1. This will fill the much needed hole in PVE.

I also wish the there was more structure in dungeon play.

I didn’t read all the comments here (or in the article), and I haven’t MMO’d seriously since Ragnarok Online.

That said, the point I agree with the most is the point re: storytelling. I don’t think voice acting is to blame for it, because there are plenty of games with downright awful voice acting that still do a good job at telling a story.

But the story in GW2 definitely did feel lackluster and I do feel more immersed when outside of my personal story than while in it. I think the game could use small expansions with bonus storylets and the like, but that’s because I’m a lover of story in games.

The dialogue is also extremely cheesy at times, especially as far as Destiny’s Edge is concerned. I cringe at the text every time I do a dungeon’s story mode. That said I feel like the random NPC banter is often more well-written than the actual story dialogue. Random Asura have made me giggle more than once, and little things like the Asuran kid running around in Halloween talking about having devised a rigorous strategic plan to ensure maximum candy procurement make me smile.

I don’t feel like crafting is problematic, and I actually enjoy discovering recipes in the cooking branch (which is the only branch where OP’s concerns apply), but I do feel like it’d help if they could at least let us know what some of the missing ingredients are. I have to wiki ingredients to find recipes often.

I never had any issue with area progression. I just look at the map and scout for the nearest area for my level. I’ve also never gone above level 14 after being 100% done with a starter area, so I don’t think OP’s comment about having no incentive to move on is accurate. I also never actually got karma vendor stuff, though.

I actually enjoy having to figure out strategies and builds. It may be tough needing to figure out a group strategy with total strangers, but when playing with people you know and whose builds you’re familiar with grouping can be pretty smooth.

And to me DEs have always just been a thing you jump into to finish your dailies or get some extra exp before you move on to explore the next area. :V

You know…I kinda find it interesting that almost 100% of the people who have posted in the thread agree that the story in and of itself is horrible.

How is it that everyone (who has widely varying opinions on the state of the game) agree on ONE thing. The story?

That should be a sign or something. An alarming ringing bell that should buzzing in the developers ears.

Jairlyn.1429:

Zeldain.5710:

Amra.6028:

Zeldain.5710:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

I think this is an excellent basis for the foundational problems with the game. Try and read it objectively and see if you agree.

Half way crappy.
If you need someone to point you to the next area even if it has levels written on it, you’re outright dumb.
If you don’t manage to craft, you’re dumb as well. There’s lots of things to complain about, but half of what this article covers is a themepark crybabby that can’t ever use his own head when playing.

Hint: it’s the fault of the game, not the player.

The maps are labeled by level.
There are roads that lead you to the zone entrances
Story of the hearts and DEs take you to the edges.
The only thing more they could do is play your character for you.

It’s not so much knowing what zone to be in for your level, but having it all make sense. Those breadcrumb quests that lead you to the next zone are the thing that ties each zone’s story into the main plot. The way it is now, every zone might as well just be a separate game. They don’t tie into each other at all.

And what’s with the “WoW clone”, most of the things you’re blaming on copying WoW existed way before that game. But even still, copying WoW’s format isn’t a bad idea… You can’t argue with a 10,000,000 active subscription count, they’re clearly doing SOMETHING right.

1. Explaining our roles to us

I half agree with this because I think a lot of it is up to balancing more than its up to explanation.

2. Dynamic events

I do agree that dynamic events eventually get dry and never were as big of a savior from traditional quests as we had hoped. I, however, disagree with bringing back traditional quest hubs.

I hate quest hubs. I would almost rather have nothing and level on kills. Granted quest hubs would be MUCH better in GW2 than other games (due to EXP scaling and low level content not getting “grayed out”) it still doesn’t mean they would make sense or be any fun.

3. Area flow

Haven’t really put enough thought into this

4. Crafting is a mess

I stopped crafting a while ago so again, not enough thought into this

5. The story is weak

Every time I’m leveling a new character I’m sad to see the orders appear. I think the order story missions are still pretty good, but they cut all of the real interesting stuff back in your home town to an end.

I swear I could have gone 80 levels in Divinity’s Reach sneaking around spying on the ministry and usurping bandit operations. I feel like I was also starting to build relationships with the rich community, or on my other character, Petra.

When I did operations with Logan I really felt like we were working together. I know Trahearne is with the player on several later missions but I just don’t get that co-op vibe from him.

Claw Island is about the point where I stop playing story. Undead are an uninteresting enemy and they take way too long to kill. Trahearne is an uninteresting character and he is given way too much credit. And Orr is everything that is wrong with end game. While I believe there could be a lot of emotional power to introducing a player to an apocalyptic setting, the fact that it’s endgame ruins it. It makes us think, well this is our new home. We have to hang out in this ugly place to get good loot. This is our endgame, this is what we do now. Orr is better than most games for exploring though.

I would also like to point out that I never felt like I hated Zhaitan. I grew to detest the krait and the nightmare court, but not Zhaitan. Zhaitan just isn’t bad enough. He doesn’t have enough parts where he crosses the line.

tonyl.5063:

1) It’s not so much knowing what zone to be in for your level, but having it all make sense. Those breadcrumb quests that lead you to the next zone are the thing that ties each zone’s story into the main plot. The way it is now, every zone might as well just be a separate game. They don’t tie into each other at all.

2) But even still, copying WoW’s format isn’t a bad idea.

1) Scouts and Hearts tell the story of the area.

As for each zone being different, they are. Events cause problems for the NPC’s in that area constantly, as opposed to traditional quests, where you solve their problems by killing X number, so they send you on.

As for it tying into the main plot, we have the Personal Story for that. Even though Zhaitan is the main baddy, it doesn’t mean that each zone hasn’t got it’s own problems as well.

2) Copying WoW’s format would be a bad idea, because they do that format incredibly well. Anything less isn’t going to keep players around, which is why they need to work on their Dynamic Events. The one advantage ANet has on top of WoW is the foundation to create an immersive, persistant world, since WoW is stuck in the ‘follow quests, do dailies, raid’ format. You don’t make a half-baked version of what your competitor has worked on for the past x amount of years, since they’ll just go back to that one.

Zeldain.5710:

Amra.6028:

Zeldain.5710:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

I think this is an excellent basis for the foundational problems with the game. Try and read it objectively and see if you agree.

Half way crappy.
If you need someone to point you to the next area even if it has levels written on it, you’re outright dumb.
If you don’t manage to craft, you’re dumb as well. There’s lots of things to complain about, but half of what this article covers is a themepark crybabby that can’t ever use his own head when playing.

Hint: it’s the fault of the game, not the player.

No. The game cannot hold the hands of everyone nor can it please everyone. A vast VAST majority of players will never ever experience this issue. Which means its the players fault for not using their head.

tonyl.5063:

It’s not so much knowing what zone to be in for your level, but having it all make sense. Those breadcrumb quests that lead you to the next zone are the thing that ties each zone’s story into the main plot. The way it is now, every zone might as well just be a separate game. They don’t tie into each other at all.

You are as bad as the writer from the linked article.
There IS a linked story from zone to zone and throughout the land.
Not everyone needs floating yellow ! to alert us as to what to pay attention to.

Heinel.6548:

If you think there’s no tanks or healers in GW2. You are not exploring the game fully. Before you denounce GW2’s combat as unstructured and chaotic, think back to your CoH/V experience, apply the same framework to GW2. The two systems are very similar.

You can build tanky or build to do some healing, yes. Can that be your ultimate focus? Not really. You can’t do either to the level required to be labeled as a tank or a healer. In fact, if you even so much as suggest that you are either of those, you’ll immediately be torn to shreds by trolls and fanboys who will very aggressively tell you that those don’t exist.

Thinking back to my CoH/V experience, I could build a character to be a tank. I could tank on a Tanker, Scrapper, or Brute quite readily. I could also build an illusion Controller to tank things for my group. I built characters whose entire focus was support, not damage(like an illusion/ForceField Controller who speciallized in buffing defense and controlling enemies with confusion and soft CC).

But, by that same virtue, I could build any archetype as a damage dealer. I could also pick up some little extra tools to supplement my damage, healing, or control through the power pools everyone gets to select from. In the end, I could build however I want but I could ALSO build to serve a role.

And it’s not just that I could provide a role, but the group noticed that I was. If I let my Force Fields drop off of my team, they would suddenly go from handling a situation quite handedly to dropping like flies. If I didn’t keep my confusions up, the same thing applies. But if I don’t ‘tank’ here, what happens? Someone else gets the ‘aggro’(which the aggro system seems to illusive and mysterious to everyone on the forums or in-game) and simply kites around and dodges. If I don’t ‘heal’, someone just kites around and dodges. If I don’t dps things enough, someone just kites around and dodges some more.

Roles allow dungeons to feel like an effort in teamwork. The current state is a nasty clusterkitten of people swarming targets, dpsing and dodging around like they are pumped full of redbull, and dying a lot. And if they die, so what? They can run right back to the fight while the others dodge and kite around in circles. It’s flat-out, boring.

As I said before, I don’t care whether they have the trinity or not, but roles are needed to have teamwork and synergy.

DarkWasp.7291:

2. Dynamic events

I do agree that dynamic events eventually get dry and never were as big of a savior from traditional quests as we had hoped.

Usually the DEs have some kind of trigger, often a NPC with a big flare over their head. If said flare was visible on the map no matter the range, people may be more inclined to look them up and set them in motion. Having to virtually walk into them do not help with triggering them…

Rhysati.4932:

Heinel.6548:

If you think there’s no tanks or healers in GW2. You are not exploring the game fully. Before you denounce GW2’s combat as unstructured and chaotic, think back to your CoH/V experience, apply the same framework to GW2. The two systems are very similar.

You can build tanky or build to do some healing, yes. Can that be your ultimate focus? Not really. You can’t do either to the level required to be labeled as a tank or a healer.

Best guess for me is that ANet wants everything as much as possible to behave the same in PVE and SPVP. Problem is that if you have effective heal/tank in SPVP you get the proverbial immovable object, that can bunker down on a point and hold it against even the four horsemen.

The necromancer death shroud was nerfed during the betas for this reason, and i suspect ANet will be taking long hard looks at both engineer and guardian to avoid this.

While i disagree with most of the article some criticism i agree with. I found crafting on the whole to be rather fun but it does require an insane amount of mats to level and by the time you gather enough. You would out-level what you could craft.

The storyline / personal quest was also another part the criticism is correct. Although I applaud Anet’s attempt at making a personal storyline for the players, most of the NPC and the things you do aren’t particularly memorable. I much rather they focus on more character / plot development than introduce me to a whole slew of people who did not leave behind any impression of them at all.

Rhysati.4932:

As I said before, I don’t care whether they have the trinity or not, but roles are needed to have teamwork and synergy.

Snipped your post, but I loved it! I highligted this quote because I agree with this.

All I recall, long time ago, the DEV’s saying was that ANYONE can fill ANYONE else’s role. It was to remove the need to sit there all day long and call out for a monk or a warrior to do a dungeon run. I envisioned it that ALL would be healers/tanks/DPS inside teh group and swap it out depending on people’s CDs. It wasn’t at all like it turned out. For some people, better, for other worse.

Not to say I didn’t enjoy trying my best to try and like it, but ultimately, I grew bored. I want to see this game change and be better, and it may end up never going my way and my $60 bucks will forever be…wasted. But that is not my decision to make.